Standing desks

[levels x3]

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Has anyone seen or heard of a pathologist using a standing desk? With all of the discussion about how sitting all day is killing us, I wonder if it's being tried in pathology.

 

[pathstudent]

Has anyone seen or heard of a pathologist using a standing desk? With all of the discussion about how sitting all day is killing us, I wonder if it's being tried in pathology.

Get rid of your PA. Then you can at least gross every couple days.

 

[mlw03]

That does not strike me as a good idea. Standing for 6 hours straight is no fun. After doing 4-6 autopsies in a day, I'm physically very sore and tired.

 

[levels x3]

Get rid of your PA. Then you can at least gross every couple days.

Ha! We don't have a PA. We're, I suppose, one of the few groups that still does our own grossing; works out to 1, maybe 2 days a week. I actually wish we had one. Grossing is wasted time to me.

We do a fair amount of autopsies too, but nowhere near 4-6 per day. I might do 30 a year. I would be tired and sore after doing 4-6 per day too, but that's not the same as standing at a desk. Autopsies are very physical; bending over the body, moving around, lifting organ blocks out, cutting, etc.

I am not seriously considering this. It seems to be a trend in other industries and so I was curious to see if anyone has seen it in pathology.

 

[deleted314957]

That does not strike me as a good idea. Standing for 6 hours straight is no fun. After doing 4-6 autopsies in a day, I'm physically very sore and tired.

WOW! 4-6/day. that's a hell of a lot more than the medical examiner accreditation commission suggests. i think they say about 250/year. i hope that is not your standard load.

 

[mlw03]

WOW! 4-6/day. that's a hell of a lot more than the medical examiner accreditation commission suggests. i think they say about 250/year. i hope that is not your standard load.

No, not the norm. But has happened a few times on a bad day. Our office does aim to keep the pathologists at or below the 250 cases/year level.

 

[lipomas]

You can shell out the money and get a desk that elevates so you can sit or stand at it. Or depending on whether you're employed or not, go to employee health and tell them you have neck pain and maybe they'll pay for it.

 

[KCShaw]

There's a difference between 4-6/day, and 4-6/day *every day*. The current accreditation related requirements are based on an average annual load as split among the everyday pathologists. Personally I would rather do 4-6/day once or occasionally twice a week than 2/day for about 25 days out of every 30 -- I've done it both ways, and the latter just eventually wears me down more, especially if you throw in a couple of bad cases that start to put you behind on paperwork. When you look at it, the latter will get you around 600 cases/year even though at first it doesn't sound all that bad; I know folks who have done that kind of workload for extended periods, though the accreditation requirement is <325 (but recommended is 250). I suppose I digress.

I can't think of anyone I know who has used a standing desk. I did have our techs here rig me up an elevated cutting table though, as I'm fairly tall and the low surfaces eventually make my back ache. But most desks & chairs I've tried are not much better for someone my height -- drop the chair down and my knees are too high, doubling me over to work at the desk, but pump the chair up and my shoulders hunch over the desk. I take lots of breaks.

 

[Geork]

I recently asked for my office to be remodeled and asked about the possibility, I was pretty much shot down b/c I would have to go through the hospital approved vendor, but the more I think about it the more I'm going to get one.

I'm actually moving out of state and joining a new group and will likely ask for a sit/stand desk or just buy one myself (about 1K).

I don't know about you guys, but I'm currently in a 5 member group and we push alot of glass EVERYONE has back problems, even our super fir young guy. The ergonomics of what is we is poor, look around at your colleagues, if I'm truly having a high vol. day I don't move at all from my scope in 12 hours.

The key is to have a sit/stand desk that's motorized. Radiologists, who aren't as technophobic as us, have been doing this for decades (google PACS workstations or walk down the hall to your rads guys). That way you can stand for an hour, sit an hour, etc. Heck, you can even sit 95% of the time. I'm then gonna get a nice comfy chair, but also a bar stool type thing I can perch on. Frankly, once we go all digital in the next 10-20 years, we are essentially going to be signing out on PACS workstations (go see the GE omnyx guys at the next USCAP and ask them)

You guys can make fun all you want, but I'm not THAT out of shape and have only been in practice for a few years and I already have horrible back pain, but there is NO WAY I'm going to be one of my hunch backed, naproxen popping, can't play with kids cause I can't bend over, senior partners.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

http://www.versatables.com/products/electric-lift-table/


This is what we use and it has been great. We even got one for endoscopy due to all the time spent/wasted screening lung and mediastinal lymph node FNAs. After work, do as many hamstring, glute exercises as you can. Those are what has saved me after all these years, although my running times have slowed sadly.

 

[Path2009]

I can think of at least 2 pathologists who have this setup. It's nice to have some variety when you are tired of sitting.

 

[LaBelleVN]

As a side note, are there any specific chairs that you find ergonomic? I'm going to ask my new job if I can order a chair. I already have some back problems (2nd baby decided she didn't want to come out) so if I'm going to be sitting on my butt for hours, I might as well be relatively comfortable. Thanks.

 

[Pathologee]

What is all this talk about standing up? The best part about pathology is sitting down!

 

[KCShaw]

Y'know, even just an adjustable desk might save a few comfort years for me. Kinda glad this got revisited. I've never been particularly comfortable at a desk for extended periods despite enjoying some computer time, and usually find myself in some strangely contorted position after a while. It looks like at least some of the "standing" desks are really just widely adjustable, with standing an option. But for some of us a "standard" desk, regardless of being able to adjust the chair, just ain't all that suitable.

 

[Geork]

Ha! I'm glad this got revived too, its nice to hear I'm not the only nuts one. I found this old dinosaur thread by googling "standing desk pathology" because I knew that there had to be others out there like me.

I'm currently in a small group practice in the south and when I brought this up, the lab admin. gave me a look like I was asking for a wetbar, hot tub, and stripper pole in my office. I explained that its not that uncommon, but got a "we don't cotton to your fancy city ways around here" response.

It did get me a whole office remake, but it still kinda sucks. The chair I got (a HON, we have to buy through office depot) is actually great. Quite expensive, but no complaints. Many office supply companies will loan you a chair for a week or so to "test", I would recommend doing this before plonking down $500-700+ for a chair.

I've been really thinking about this alot now. Its only been in the past year its gotten bad, but I'm rethinking my whole ergonomic thing. In training, you're always running around fetching, etc. but in community / private practice others fetch, its your job to make reports. At first I though this was super cool, until I couldn't bend over to pick up my 2 year old.

I bough the telescoping olympus head (love it), taught myself to use the stage (keep hands in neutral position), and a few other things. One of my killers now is that my computer and office door are 90 degrees away from my scope, so if anyone comes in or if I type I have to turn my neck.

Like I said, two years ago I would have been making fun of myself for even THINKING about stuff like this, but man if you are fortunate enough to be one of the pathologists who actually does get a decent busy job... you're gonna be sitting in that chair looking through that scope A LOT.

Gluts and hamstrings, check will do, thats good advice. I've started stretching between 15 or so cases (secretaries love it, like I said, I'm in the south, I get a lot of: Dr. xxx sure is getting his stretches in, he must get real sore with all that thinking he's doing or a tech will bring me as case and say: now Dr. xxx don't pull anything when you're reviewing this, need my help to take out the slides from the tray?)

 

[Geork]

Y'know, even just an adjustable desk might save a few comfort years for me. Kinda glad this got revisited. I've never been particularly comfortable at a desk for extended periods despite enjoying some computer time, and usually find myself in some strangely contorted position after a while. It looks like at least some of the "standing" desks are really just widely adjustable, with standing an option. But for some of us a "standard" desk, regardless of being able to adjust the chair, just ain't all that suitable.

Yeah you're right, most of the new "standing desks" are really just adjustable, and like I said I would probably spend 80-90% time sitting. I too end up in weird contorted positions by 6 pm.

 

[rollwithit]

Where is Thrombus? He needs to chime in about how standing desks are a threat to the profession by extending the span of pathologists' careers.

BAN HEALTHY WORK PRACTICES!11!!1!1! WE ARE DOOMEDDDDD!!11!1!!!!

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Where is LADoc? Shouldnt he be here saying that standing desks are for liberals? Or maybe claiming that he is paid as a consultant for companies that make standing desks?

This place is great.



Dont hesitate to buy an electric table, especially if you enjoy an active lifestyle. Chronically sore hamstrings can make your life miserable 🙁

If you wanna be one of those 70 to 80 year old pathologists (with no life outside the lab and only defined by his/her job) just continue sitting.

 

[Substance]

Where is LADoc? Shouldnt he be here saying that standing desks are for liberals? Or maybe claiming that he is paid as a consultant for companies that make standing desks?

This place is great.



Dont hesitate to buy an electric table, especially if you enjoy an active lifestyle. Chronically sore hamstrings can make your life miserable 🙁

If you wanna be one of those 70 to 80 year old pathologists (with no life outside the lab and only defined by his/her job) just continue sitting.

Why don't you guys have hi-def camers and Barco monitors with a "gamepad" to control the microscope, and some sort of automated slide carousel system? Such an arrangement would certainly help with neck and back strain. Has anyone thought of this?

 

[TMZ2007]

Why don't you guys have hi-def camers and Barco monitors with a "gamepad" to control the microscope, and some sort of automated slide carousel system? Such an arrangement would certainly help with neck and back strain. Has anyone thought of this?

Probably what will happen before that is super high speed whole slide scanning/archiving with which we probably will sign out via PACS as suggested above. A few vendors at USCAP were showing networked scanners that could do 100 slides/hr at 40x. I still think this is more like 10-15 years away from being more efficient then guy with a scope, but it will probably come eventually.

 

[KCShaw]

Right now the FDA has their noses in the pie and evidently want to regulate the use of digital pathology in the setting of primary diagnosis -- so even once technically efficient we might be looking at 10 years past -that- before the FDA gives the OK (only for certain setups of course, doubling or tripling or more the price in the process just because of the regulatory hurdles) and a few systems go into widespread use. I have no idea if radiology went through the same thing when going from hard copy to digital. Maybe it was considered already covered with systems creating a digital capture/intermediate before printing, way before they largely dumped the hard copies.

 

[smallcat]

Our whole practice has adjustable desks similar to the one linked above. They're great- I spend about half of my time standing and half sitting. I think they're around $800? If the hospital hadn't bought them for us, I would have shelled out the cash for one myself- totally worth it.

 

[LoaLoa]

I work in a high-volume multispecialty lab signing out surgical pathology and cytopathology. I use a standing desk for most of my work day. The one I have is called a "GeekDesk" (apt....) and I bought it on the internet. It is adjustable, and I sit:stand at an approximately 1:4 ratio, working about 9 hour days. I use a gel pad to stand on which makes it easier on my knees. I have been working this way for months, and I would not (voluntarily) go back to sitting full time. I don't even notice I'm standing while I'm signing out, but I feel a lot better at the end of the day. I'd encourage you to get one if you're considering it. There's plenty of evidence that sitting on your ass all day is terrible for your health.

 

[anonymousmonkey]

I bought a standing desk from Ergo Desktop (http://www.ergodesktop.com/) for approximately $300. It's awesome - they put a more powerful spring in it to accommodate a 35lb microscope (for free) and I bought an additional stabilization leg (2 total) to reduce vibration. I have been really happy with it - I work half standing, half seated. Although I am a pretty active guy, I had a hell of a time with a nerve entrapment syndrome (meralgia parasthetica) from sitting all the time, never mind how bad sitting is for you in the long run (http://www.medicalbillingandcoding.org/sitting-kills/).

 

[CrazyEBV]

I suffer from chronic back and neck pain which gets aggravated with scoping for even short hours. I am still in training in one of the busier programs in the northeast. Sometimes it is so bad that I think of changing career (to I don't know what since I can't imagine doing anything but Pathology). It is comforting to see people get over their limitations like these but sometimes I feel that I have worse symptoms than most other people. It is affecting my performance so much that my attendings are beginning to complain. I still remain hopeful that in future I will get time to exercise and probably get some relief. I'd appreciate if anyone can share their experiences under similar circumstances and how they overcame these issues.

 

[Johnny Sunshine]

Have you tried looking into proper posture assessment? I'm not trying to be condescending, but I seriously think people underestimate how precise an issue it can be.

I personally have to pile my scope onto several books, lean back in my chair, and belly-up to the desk edge to avoid problems. My neck is not bent at all, just my eyeballs are directed slightly downward into the eyepieces, while my head is balanced atop my straight neck.

It could also be related to your chair. Or lack of arm/elbow support, or many other factors.

It may sound extreme, but there are professionals who actually specialize in optimizing workstation ergonomics. They will come to your desk and help assess your specific needs. It might seem weird to actually hire someone like that, but if it's bad enough to make you reconsider your career it may be worth looking into.

 

[BoardShivers]

Umm.

 

[BU Pathology]

Have you tried looking into proper posture assessment? I'm not trying to be condescending, but I seriously think people underestimate how precise an issue it can be.

I personally have to pile my scope onto several books, lean back in my chair, and belly-up to the desk edge to avoid problems. My neck is not bent at all, just my eyeballs are directed slightly downward into the eyepieces, while my head is balanced atop my straight neck.

It could also be related to your chair. Or lack of arm/elbow support, or many other factors.

It may sound extreme, but there are professionals who actually specialize in optimizing workstation ergonomics. They will come to your desk and help assess your specific needs. It might seem weird to actually hire someone like that, but if it's bad enough to make you reconsider your career it may be worth looking into.

Assessment of ergonomics may be very helpful. At some institutions there is a formal process for this, since it enhances productivity and increases worker (including pathologists) job satisfaction. From a strictly business perspective, it costs less to assess and buy a good chair than to pay worker's compensation or deal with time off issues.