Stanford (Full-tuition) vs. UCSF vs. Michigan (Full-tuition + housing)

[Ampharos]

Hi All, thanks for looking at my thread. I'm currently interested in health disparities and public policy with the intention of landing an academic medicine job in the future. Love research as well. Undecided regarding specialty but would appreciate a school that can draw upon interdisciplinary resources.

EDIT: I'm interesting in doing more than just clinical practice. Been floating ideas around anthropology, design, innovation etc.

Stanford
+ Lower cost (120k COA over 4 years)
+ Sunny (after going to school with snow for 4 years, sun would be nice)
+ Research funding (Med scholars for 5 quarters full time)
+ Faculty are amazing and have interdisciplinary research interests
+ Graduate schools outside of medicine
+ Design school
+ Smallest class size (90 students)
+ No AOA or competition
+ Students seem so happy all of the time
+ Prestige (?)
- Palo Alto is kind of boring
- Lots of students forgo the match???
- Weaker clinical than UCSF
- Weaker health disparities/under-served medicine

UCSF
++++ Amazing clinical rotations (VA, SFGH, etc)
+ Nationally renowned for health disparities/under-served medicine and scholarship
+ LGBT support
+ Bridges curriculum looks really cool
+ Practicing medicine through the lens of social justice
+ Diverse patient population
+ San Francisco
+ Prestige (?)
- Stand alone healthcare oriented focus
- Large class size (170 students)
- Most expensive out of the three (180k COA over 4 years)

Michigan
++ Lowest cost (0k COA over 4 years) LITERALLY FREE
+ Everything paid for
+ Masters program funded
+ Graduate schools outside of medicine
+ Curriculum seemed pretty cool
+ Connections everywhere/Michigan family
- Large class size (170 students)
- Not in California
- Weaker health disparities/under-served medicine
- Not diverse patient population?
- Less individual student support

Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks for your help! Hope that you have a wonderful day.

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[libertyyne]

WOW.

 

[libertyyne]

UCSF seems like the best fir for what you are looking for.

 

[Señor S]

Michigan is a great school and an extra 100k+ in loans is nothing to sneeze at. But if you really want to be in California then I would probably go to UCSF.

 

[efle]

I am so jealous !

You want academic med, are interested in disparities and want to be somewhere warm. You can go to UCSF and walk out with below-median debt. This one seems pretty straightforward.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Congrats on hitting the jackpot!

Just a couple of things. While Stanford is tucked away in Palo Alto, it is affiliated with SCVMC, one of the largest county hospitals in California and San Jose is easily accessible via car/Caltrain from the Stanford campus. In addition, Stanford has programs that help underserved people in East Palo Alto and also offers VA options.

Don't know much about Michigan, but you certainly shouldn't count them out in terms of addressing health disparities. Also, a 40k COA from such a high caliber school is a pretty awesome deal!

Edit: Not gonna comment on UCSF, because I'm too biased i.e. crazy enough to pay a zillion to attend that school lol

 

[deleted668917]

Michigan is a great school and an extra 100k+ in loans is nothing to sneeze at. But if you really want to be in California then I would probably go to UCSF.

@Goro started a new trend

 

[differentiating]

UCSF
++++ Amazing clinical rotations (VA, SFGH, etc)
+ Nationally renowned for health disparities/under-served medicine and scholarship
+ LGBT support
+ Bridges curriculum looks really cool
+ Practicing medicine through the lens of social justice
+ Diverse patient population
+ San Francisco
+ Prestige (?)
- Stand alone healthcare oriented focus
- Large class size (170 students)
- Most expensive out of the three (180k COA over 4 years)

Just a few things - 1. this is nitpicky, but effective class size is more like 150, since you'll never see the JMP kids after white coat, & 2. I wouldn't base a decision on liking certain rotation sites, since at UCSF you're not guaranteed to get anything you want (at least, not with the current system). It's also worth noting that the majority of students have to do at least 1 rotation in Fresno.

Off of what you have listed here, I'd say Stanford sounds like your best bet.

 

[deev04]

UMich has one of the best public health schools in the country and is right up there for law/policy. Having access to not just the med school, but an entire university with various schools/undergrad– all of which are research powerhouses – might be worth considering. This is especially true if you're looking to get involved in interdisciplinary/non-trad research (i.e. anthropology, health policy). I think UCSF has a lot of established connections w/Berkeley, but having connections to a separate university might not provide the same access/continuity of opportunities.

If there wasn't a $140k difference, I'd say happiness and fit are important and it sounds like your heart is in SF. But $140k is not pocket change. Of course, $180k is not a ridiculous amount of debt, but add in interest and the fact that there may not be any door or opportunity that UCSF opens that UMich doesn't...

Ridic options either way. Congrats!

EDIT: Also, while Ann Arbor might be more suburban, you are <1 hr from one of the most medically underserved cities (Detroit). Greater Detroit also has a huge immigrant population. I'd imagine getting involved with health disparities research/ECs is still very accessible.

 

[alcoholdehydrogenase69]

First of all, wow. You are the definition of a superstar, great job.

All your choices are outstanding places to go for medical school and I don't think you can make a bad decision. Saying that, I think the differences in these programs are a bit overstated as they are all top tier. I would follow the money here and go with Michigan or Stanford, as I don't think that UCSF will deliver THAT different of an experience for that much bigger of a price tag. Keep in mind that the program you decide to attend does not necessarily determine the trajectory of your career, only you can do this.

If I had to pick one, I would say Stanford due to the happiness, location, and money factor. BONUS: You can also impress everyone you know with that lay person prestige.

 

[Fortyfive]

How does a Pokémon get a full-ride to Stanford?

Congrats Ampharos!! you can't go wrong with either choice, but if I was in your shoes, I would go with Stanford

 

[aalamruad]

First of all, wow. You are the definition of a superstar, great job.

All your choices are outstanding places to go for medical school and I don't think you can make a bad decision. Saying that, I think the differences in these programs are a bit overstated as they are all top tier. I would follow the money here and go with Michigan or Stanford, as I don't think that UCSF will deliver THAT different of an experience for that much bigger of a price tag. Keep in mind that the program you decide to attend does not necessarily determine the trajectory of your career, only you can do this.

If I had to pick one, I would say Stanford due to the happiness, location, and money factor. BONUS: You can also impress everyone you know with that lay person prestige.

I don't know if this line of reasoning is very consistent. If you're trying to follow the money, the answer would be Michigan hands down. Stanford is $110,000 more than Michigan, so it doesn't really make sense to group Michigan and Stanford as the cheap options and UCSF as the expensive option when UCSF is only $30k more than Stanford, which is almost negligible.

 

[cranialLOOP]

Stanford will cost much less than 150k. With TAships and reduced tuition in the 4th year, it will probably be less than 100k for you.

With that in mind, Stanford is a much stronger choice for you. Michigan a close second. That deans scholar program will probably be incredible. But Michigan :/ UCSF is not worth the money with those other options to consider.

 

[aalamruad]

Also, in your pros list for UCSF, you forgot to include @WhittyPsyche and me

 

[LePepe]

Wow. You're awesome haha

 

[wagonwheel23]

I know doctors (not medical students) at UCSF and Stanford. Some key points...

1. Both are fantastic institutions
2. UCSF is stronger clinically. Their healthcare network is large and they serve a variety of different patient populations.
3. UCSF feels like a San Francisco institution. What I mean in that regard is that it is very LGBT friendly, progressive, a bit quirky. Not to say that Stanford isn't, but UCSF appears to be much moreso.
4. Both schools are research powerhouses. Stanford has more opportunities beyond research and medicine.
5. If you like the suburbs and smallish towns, Palo Alto area is nice. Great weather, easy to get around. You're close to the Santa Cruz mountains.
6. City person? UCSF hands down. San Francisco is a magical city. Rent is expensive, but it is in Palo Alto as well. And if you're LGBT, you can't beat the gay life in San Francisco. There are always free events going on. You will not get bored. Well, perhaps in the winter when it (sometimes) rains nonstop.

You really can't go wrong... Congratulations!

 

[WhittyPsyche]

Also, in your pros list for UCSF, you forgot to include @WhittyPsyche and me

Haha how did I miss this post!

Oh yeah it's because I was busy moving to San Francisco


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[Ampharos]

Thanks @libertyyne @Señor S @efle @Cyberdyne 101 @Doctorburke @differentiating @deev04 @alcoholdehydrogenase69 @Fortyfive @walloobi @LePepe @wagonwheel23 @WhittyPsyche !!! I really appreciate each and all of your comments. I have one quick qualifier: I have received my final Michigan package and they are covering everything over four years so my cost of attendance is 0. I'm attending second looks so I will keep you all updated!

Thank you again! You are all wonderful and beautiful people!

 

[Frogger27]

I would 100% go to Michigan. Congrats on the wonderful options, you can't go wrong with any of them!

 

[neekzg]

I'm biased towards UCSF and think it would perfectly fit your interests but unless they can offer a better financial aid deal you'd be crazy not to pick Michigan. They have one of the strongest public health programs in the country if you already know you're interested in pursuing that. Come to the Bay Area for residency!

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

My soul is literally under the Bay Bridge, protected by the Oakland cranes and a fearless flock of seagulls, and I'd still have a very difficult time turning down that Michigan offer.

 

[libertyyne]

Is putting up with the Michigan winters for four years worth 180K?
I would personally put up with them for a lot less.

You arent going to have a lot of time to serve undeserved populations during medical school. Rotations will be more about training compared to serving, and summers can be used to serve said population.

 

[redsox93]

.

 

[calimed2017]

it KILLS me to say this (especially b/c Stanford was my 1st choice), but I do think that you are a great fit for their institution.

Stanford seems to best prepare people for academic medicine. If you are ABSOLUTELY sure you want to enter academia, this would definitely give you the best leg up. You could also drive down the funding by doing the MedScholars and other TA positions. Plus, you have almost every top program in the country on the same campus. This would allow you to pursue any interest you may have outside of medicine. Yes, Stanford is not the best with community engagement/health disparities, but it seems like there are opportunities to pursue this topic area and incredible funding (you could be a pioneer).

BUT, the only thing is that academia tends to pay less, so long-term wise, I would be serious about your cost of attendance. Stanford has many opportunities to drive down the cost, but getting fully funded by Michigan would help you pursue academic more seriously without having to worry about any financial barriers. Plus, the added benefit of using that 100K that you would have to pay back at Stanford, you can redirect it to having a house, car, etc.

Ultimately, I think its down to Michigan and Stanford, but Stanford seems to have a slight edge! Good luck with your decision!

 

[Ampharos]

Just a quick update to everyone who has stuck with me so far. I loved Stanford Second Look and could really see myself living and thriving there. The current students and fellows admits are amazing people who will challenge me to learn every single day. I have also talked to FA and my projected debt is actually closer to 120k. A combination of finances and opportunity now greatly tips the balance toward Stanford. I will still attend Michigan's and UCSF's second looks and make final decisions closer to the deadline. Thank you all for sticking with me!!

Thanks @Frogger27 @neekzg @Cyberdyne 101 @libertyyne @redsox93 @calimed2017 for your insight as well.

Ya'll are all great people!

 

[To be MD]

Just a quick update to everyone who has stuck with me so far. I loved Stanford Second Look and could really see myself living and thriving there. The current students and fellows admits are amazing people who will challenge me to learn every single day. I have also talked to FA and my projected debt is actually closer to 120k. A combination of finances and opportunity now greatly tips the balance toward Stanford. I will still attend Michigan's and UCSF's second looks and make final decisions closer to the deadline. Thank you all for sticking with me!!

Thanks @Frogger27 @neekzg @Cyberdyne 101 @libertyyne @redsox93 @calimed2017 for your insight as well.

Ya'll are all great people!

I'd rank Stanford > UCSF > Michigan

However, with finances coming into play.... I'd say Michigan > Stanford > UCSF

I'd go 120k in debt to go to Stanford, but I haven't been accepted by any of these schools lol.

 

[Lamar1307]

I think that it would be insane not to consider a top program that will leave you with literally no debt after you graduate. I would choose Michigan since it is the same caliber program as Stanford and UCSF. I have always want to move to California! But...I have a good amount of debt from undergrad and know how it feels to have a good amount of my check leave me every month. Either way nice job getting all these amazing offers! Good luck !

 

[Ampharos]

Headed to Stanford! Thank you to everyone who has been with me on this wild ride!

Much love.

 

[deev04]

Congrats! Can't wait for your next thread: "Match or Venture Capital: Help Me Decide??!!"

 

[libertyyne]

Congrats! Can't wait for your next thread: "Match or Venture Capital: Help Me Decide??!!"

The things I would do for a venture capital match.

 

[WorksInProgress]

Headed to Stanford! Thank you to everyone who has been with me on this wild ride!

Much love.

If it makes you feel any better @Ampharos, I had the same offers and made the same decision, and I was far FAR more on the fence abut Stanford post-ASW that you were. A couple years in, I am very happy with that call.

And regarding your negatives about Stanford:
- Palo Alto is kind of boring
It sure is. Don't let any of my colleagues try to convince you otherwise. SF is close, but not that close.

- Lots of students forgo the match???
Yes, no, and who cares? Yes, every single year some students choose to forgo the match. No, it is not the absurd 40% that some on here claim, but rather 10%, at most. That's a whole 9 students. Who cares? The choices other people make about their lives have no bearing on yours. I, for one, think that it's awesome that should I find an opportunity that fits better with my life 4 years after matriculation, that the school will fully support me in that. Many of our graduates had other opportunities, and still chose to match. It's easy to just match when there are no other opportunities, like at most other schools.

- Weaker clinical than UCSF
No. It's arguable that UCSF has stronger--or at least, more renowned--residency programs than here. But at the med student level, you're getting exposed to the same mix of county (the General vs. Valley), quaternary academic (Parnassus vs. SUMC), VA (SF VA vs Palo Alto VA), and HMO (Kaiser SF/Oakland vs Kaiser Santa Clara) healthcare delivery at both institutions. UCSF students like to wear the strength of their residency programs as if it were a badge of honor. It's the same clinical education. Except for HIV. UCSF sees far more poz patients in regular unrelated clinics (i.e. your 55yo patient in for GERD or back pain also happens to have well-controlled HIV)

- Weaker health disparities/under-served medicine
Yes, and no. UCSF (and Hopkins) has a well-earned reputation as leaders in health disparities and service to the underserved, as an institution. This is without question. UCSF has an incredibly deep bench of faculty in this area, with a ton of accompanying initiatives. (Which is why I was thisclose to going there.)

Here's the thing though, you (and I) are never going to be able to work with every single person, either at UCSF or Stanford. What has been most valuable to me is the ease of re$$earch funding and the ability to pull on expertise outside of the medical school. There are people in the Law school, Econ dept, Health Policy dept, etc who can be a great resource to you. In addition, both San Jose & East Palo Alto have massively underserved populations, where my classmates are doing great work.

Anyways, I hope this calms any buyer's remorse you might be having, and clarifies any concerns that people with similar choices in the future may have. Have fun this summer! And welcome.