Starting completely over

[cnhampton]

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A little background on me, and what I'm considering:

I'm 36 years old, and a widower. I've been in school, non-continuously, for the last 18 years, have something like 330+ credit hours, but a cumulative GPA that is under a 2.3. I took the MCAT for a job application with one of the test-prep companies, and scored a 39. My grades are all over the place, A's and F's, and everything in between. Didn't want to go to college after highschool, so badly pooched the first couple of years. Never took school particularly seriously until I got very sick, and found myself of the receiving end of the medical system. Fast forward a couple of years, and I really believe I'd like to be a doctor. I've worked in labs for roughly 10 years, as a support technician, but am not published.

I recognize that no allopathic school would touch me with a 10 foot cattle prod. Not even a question.

I'm giving some serious thought to enrolling at a community college this fall, and literally starting completely over. Taking courses as if I had zero transfer credits at all, and plowing through an associates degree, and then utilizing the state schools arrangements with the CC's to then continue on to a bachelors. This would also afford me time to build up volunteer hours, possibly get a publication or two, and potentially show a break in the inconsistent pattern of my past.

My questions are: does this afford me a chance at a DO school? Or am I simply too far gone? Would I need to tack on a SMP or other graduate degree before applying?

 

[TriagePreMed]

All grades would need to be shown at the time of application. The best thing you can probably do is move to Texas and do fresh start, but I don't know if that's an option.

You need to retake all your low grades for D.O. school. This doesn't mean you need to get a degree again from scratch. Also, most community colleges have a transfer agreement that's only applicable to people without a bachelors.

 

[cnhampton]

Right - I'm aware that some of these classes are just going to hang out there, and not be "replaced" away. Nothing I can do about those. And, I don't have a bachelors yet, so the CC transfer is what makes it work. Most state schools have a minimum of 2.5 cGPA to transfer in, but the associates is an alternate pathway, and therefore viable.

And, moving to Texas isn't really an option.

 

[LabMonster]

A little background on me, and what I'm considering:

I'm 36 years old, and a widower. I've been in school, non-continuously, for the last 18 years, have something like 330+ credit hours, but a cumulative GPA that is under a 2.3. I took the MCAT for a job application with one of the test-prep companies, and scored a 39. My grades are all over the place, A's and F's, and everything in between. Didn't want to go to college after highschool, so badly pooched the first couple of years. Never took school particularly seriously until I got very sick, and found myself of the receiving end of the medical system. Fast forward a couple of years, and I really believe I'd like to be a doctor. I've worked in labs for roughly 10 years, as a support technician, but am not published.

You said quite a bit in there... First, I'm sorry for your loss.

Second, you said you don't have a bachelor's - you'll need that, even with a gazillion hours of credits. Work on getting into a program that gives you some leeway, i.e. a program that gets you into healthcare with a job if MD/DO school doesn't work out. I got my BS in medical technology, so I worked in clinical laboratories for 6 years prior to medical school. You could also do an RN/BSN. I realize there is a time factor, but there are definitely good paying jobs in healthcare which #1 require you to get your BS and knock off pre-reqs if they're "expired" and #2 can be very rewarding (and pay well) in and of themselves.

I recognize that no allopathic school would touch me with a 10 foot cattle prod. Not even a question.

I'm giving some serious thought to enrolling at a community college this fall, and literally starting completely over. Taking courses as if I had zero transfer credits at all, and plowing through an associates degree, and then utilizing the state schools arrangements with the CC's to then continue on to a bachelors. This would also afford me time to build up volunteer hours, possibly get a publication or two, and potentially show a break in the inconsistent pattern of my past.

It sounds like you have a plan. You're right in thinking the BS is your key to getting in, and however you can do that, with great grades, will serve you well.

My questions are: does this afford me a chance at a DO school? Or am I simply too far gone? Would I need to tack on a SMP or other graduate degree before applying?

After you get your BS, you may need to retake the MCAT just because it's "expired" - I had to do the same, though I never got a 39 on the bloody thing. Obviously you have a mind very capable of passing the "doctor's" exam. You'll need to do as well or better.

I think you have a great shot, but it's going to take some time to get all of the admission pre-requisites lined up. If it were me, I would get a BS in a discipline which would allow good job prospects PRIOR to applying and during. That would allow a back-up plan and potentially something to build on in the future should you decide the MD/DO isn't in the mix anymore. In short: get your degree but give yourself flexibility in case medicine falls out of favor or doesn't happen. Good luck!

 

[DrMidlife]

That 39 on the MCAT says go for it. All the way.

Texas will wipe out your record, but it's not the only edge state. 2 MD schools in Michigan will look only at your most recent grades. I'm seeing stories of schools considering the 2 most recent years of work over the full story. Public schools in your home state may or may not give consideration to the extra flavors in your record - reach out early and often and get yourself known.

If you pull this off, you win my "if your acceptance story is more insane I'll buy you dinner" challenge here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=10984326&postcount=50

Best of luck to you.

 

[cnhampton]

LabMonster,
Thanks for your input. I'm still new to this forum, and it's late, so I'm not going to try to figure out how to do the block quotes just now, but I will try to address your points in order.

1 - thanks. It's been a long time, and I honestly only bring it up because it is an important explanatory point to my academic history. Going into school without any interest or plan, then a personal hit like that, and my Give-a-crapper was totally busted. School was just Not That Important. This has changed.

2. No bachelors yet, but that's the direct-line plan. I am planning on doing the BAS in Medical Laboratory Technology through Arizona State University, through Phoenix College (the community college, not the on-line University of Phoenix - different animals entirely). Won't bother describing the program, but it's a good deal for me.

3. Plans are easy. Good plans are harder, and making the bloody thing work is the real trick. And that's why I'm here looking for honest evaluations. 😉 The grades aren't the hard part right now, honestly. The hard part is the not-knowing if this is a pipe dream or not.

4. Yes, the MCAT is gonna' be a re-do, and I'm a little nervous about it because it's been so long since I took it, or the pre-req classes for it. I've still got access to all my old notes from the prep program, I just haven't blown the dust off of any of that stuff in close to a decade. This, again, plays the time requirement for the degree to my advantage, in that it'd be nearly 3 years before I actually took the MCAT again, giving me ample time to properly prepare for it.

Thanks again, seriously.
-C

 

[cnhampton]

DrMidlife - I have heard thin rumors about schools that only look at the last (say) 60 hours, etc, much in the way that some graduate schools do, but I've never seen anything definitive from schools or admissions committees that substantiates that. Do you know of anyone specifically? I'm not saying it's not true, please understand. I'm just apprehensive about diluting my efforts across too many different applications (not to mention limited finances for the process as well).

Thanks,
-C

 

[DrMidlife]

DrMidlife - I have heard thin rumors about schools that only look at the last (say) 60 hours, etc, much in the way that some graduate schools do, but I've never seen anything definitive from schools or admissions committees that substantiates that. Do you know of anyone specifically? I'm not saying it's not true, please understand. I'm just apprehensive about diluting my efforts across too many different applications (not to mention limited finances for the process as well).

Thanks,
-C

This info is only rarely publicized, in my experience. I was completely stunned to see Wayne State & Michigan State make it plain on their websites.

My suggestion that your state's public school(s) may give you a break is based on the last year of observations in the postbac forum, where those on a GPA comeback post their findings. (Which I don't seem to be able to stop reading, obsessively.)

I suggest trying for pre-admission counseling at your state's public schools. Some do it, some don't.

I honestly think you're mistaken that you have no chance at MD schools. I'm on record laying out the harsh reality for sub-3.0 students, but that 39 is major.

Do you know about SMPs?

 

[NightGod]

The short answer would be to get the few classes you need to finish your bachelor's and then go on to do an SMP. That would give you the widest range of places to apply and open up many MD schools as options. Most are willing to basically ignore previous grades if you kick ass in an SMP. More complicated answer would be to embark on a plan to retake (and excel at) any classes you got bad grades in and go the DO route, though that runs into some issues with them starting to look askance after a half-dozen replacements or so. All that said, start contacting med schools sooner rather than later, many of them are willing to offer pre-application counseling and can likely give you a much better answer on what you need to do to get yourself prepared to apply.

 

[Abider]

You're getting some good scoops here. Particularly the DrML dinner challenge. That would put you in an elite class.

When I read your posts I immediately thought DO grade replacement with bachelor's degree as the most elegant solution. But my bias is towards the cheap for anything that doesn't give you the right to sit for medical licensing exams. Because only the doctor career, for me at least, would give me the ability to dig my way out of debt.

This is why my esteemed colleague, Nasrudin, posted personal parameters on the gpa repair to med school thread. So that people with different circumstances could find matching profiles. The SMP is a prescription with a heavy side effect profile--megadebt and mega stress.

 

[xxx2012]

A little background on me, and what I'm considering:

I'm 36 years old, and a widower. I've been in school, non-continuously, for the last 18 years, have something like 330+ credit hours, but a cumulative GPA that is under a 2.3. I took the MCAT for a job application with one of the test-prep companies, and scored a 39. My grades are all over the place, A's and F's, and everything in between. Didn't want to go to college after highschool, so badly pooched the first couple of years. Never took school particularly seriously until I got very sick, and found myself of the receiving end of the medical system. Fast forward a couple of years, and I really believe I'd like to be a doctor. I've worked in labs for roughly 10 years, as a support technician, but am not published.

I recognize that no allopathic school would touch me with a 10 foot cattle prod. Not even a question.

I'm giving some serious thought to enrolling at a community college this fall, and literally starting completely over. Taking courses as if I had zero transfer credits at all, and plowing through an associates degree, and then utilizing the state schools arrangements with the CC's to then continue on to a bachelors. This would also afford me time to build up volunteer hours, possibly get a publication or two, and potentially show a break in the inconsistent pattern of my past.

My questions are: does this afford me a chance at a DO school? Or am I simply too far gone? Would I need to tack on a SMP or other graduate degree before applying?

That is a ton of credits. A BA is only 120 (ish) You sound like you don't have the BA yet or even an AA. Can I ask how this is possible? I've known guys to get a lot but not that much without at least an AA.

 

[MedPR]

39 is pretty boss. I hope you figure out a way to salvage your GPA.

 

[bassvp]

LabMonster,
1 - thanks. It's been a long time, and I honestly only bring it up because it is an important explanatory point to my academic history. Going into school without any interest or plan, then a personal hit like that, and my Give-a-crapper was totally busted. School was just Not That Important. This has changed.

Love this description. Succinct and accurate.

Surely with that many hours you can get your most recent school to give you a bachelors with only minimally more credits? I like NightGod's advice the most.

 

[jsp132]

Love this description. Succinct and accurate.

Surely with that many hours you can get your most recent school to give you a bachelors with only minimally more credits? I like NightGod's advice the most.

that's true

if they wanted to transfer some schools only accept a limited amount of credits and they HAVE To take a certain amount of credits to get they're BA

I would go with a healthcare program that gives you a fallback just incase this works out

your story is similar to mine

good luck if you pull it off

 

[Ellipsis1104]

This is why my esteemed colleague, Nasrudin, posted personal parameters on the gpa repair to med school thread.

loving this

 

[cabinbuilder]

1. DO school is the way to go.
2. Too bad you have to retake that MCAT, that's a great score for a just because
3. Take the pre-req's you need to quailfy for admission, forget the classes from 20 years a go and focus on the now and do really well
4. Finish your degree, look at your credits and see what is the easiest to obtain since you can have any degree to go to medical school. You don't have to have all the pre-req's done in order to graduate. You can take pre-req's after the fact.
5.DO schools replace grades so a prior F will change to A, they are not averaged.

6. You totally have a shot, just have to buckle down, finish,and apply.

 

[cnhampton]

Quite a lot to cover since my last post, but here it is in rough order:

1. SMP's are a difficult option for me. One, I'm going to have to finish a bachelors first, and that is going to take 2 years, minimum, no matter where I go. Tacking on an additional year (minimum) for the SMP, and I'm really no better off rushing through a BS that won't provide for much of a backup position, and the economics... well, that's just miserable. For example:
Dartmouth = $61389
Drexel = $66160 (+ books)
Eastern Virginia Medical School = $58681
Georgetown University = $61049 (+ additional fees)
Midwestern University = $55939 (Glendale, AZ)
Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine = $40188 (+ books, fees, living expenses)

This is before moving, before finishing the bachelors, deposits, etc, etc, etc... It's going to cost me roughly the same amount of money to finish the full bachelors in 3 years. Lets call it 30 to finish the 2 year BS, and then another 40 for PCOM (the cheapest of the 5), with another 5-10 in moving expenses (west coast) etc, I'm pushing $80k with not a hell of a lot more than I'd have with just the BS. So, this begs the question - do SMP's really tilt the field that much?

2. Having this many credits is mostly a function of transferring to 6 different schools, including two private lib arts schools with their own curriculum that nobody else has (Cultural foundations classes, their own versions of general chemistry, laboratory science, etc, that don't have transferrable equivalences), and across 3 states. There's an insane amount of redundant crap built into this sum, but when I've talked to the people reviewing transcripts for credit, I typically get a bureaucratic stonewall that beings with a bit of patronizing "You are getting a [insert current school name here] degree, so you need _our_ classes" boilerplate. Lather, rinse, repeat 6 times, and you get a lot of hours stacked up.

3. Cabinbuilder (skipping a few ahead) good to hear from a DO, and I'm glad you think I've got a realistic shot. Lots of thought going into trying to maximize course impact, with retakes to replace old bad grades also having some beneficial impact on the current degree plan, and thereby getting all the prereqs knocked out before graduation.

Thanks again, all. Glad to hear the differing opinions from people that are tapped into this subject and process. You have all been very helpful.

 

[Abider]

Quite a lot to cover since my last post, but here it is in rough order:

1. SMP's are a difficult option for me. One, I'm going to have to finish a bachelors first, and that is going to take 2 years, minimum, no matter where I go. Tacking on an additional year (minimum) for the SMP, and I'm really no better off rushing through a BS that won't provide for much of a backup position, and the economics... well, that's just miserable. For example:
Dartmouth = $61389
Drexel = $66160 (+ books)
Eastern Virginia Medical School = $58681
Georgetown University = $61049 (+ additional fees)
Midwestern University = $55939 (Glendale, AZ)
Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine = $40188 (+ books, fees, living expenses)

This is before moving, before finishing the bachelors, deposits, etc, etc, etc... It's going to cost me roughly the same amount of money to finish the full bachelors in 3 years. Lets call it 30 to finish the 2 year BS, and then another 40 for PCOM (the cheapest of the 5), with another 5-10 in moving expenses (west coast) etc, I'm pushing $80k with not a hell of a lot more than I'd have with just the BS. So, this begs the question - do SMP's really tilt the field that much?

2. Having this many credits is mostly a function of transferring to 6 different schools, including two private lib arts schools with their own curriculum that nobody else has (Cultural foundations classes, their own versions of general chemistry, laboratory science, etc, that don't have transferrable equivalences), and across 3 states. There's an insane amount of redundant crap built into this sum, but when I've talked to the people reviewing transcripts for credit, I typically get a bureaucratic stonewall that beings with a bit of patronizing "You are getting a [insert current school name here] degree, so you need _our_ classes" boilerplate. Lather, rinse, repeat 6 times, and you get a lot of hours stacked up.

3. Cabinbuilder (skipping a few ahead) good to hear from a DO, and I'm glad you think I've got a realistic shot. Lots of thought going into trying to maximize course impact, with retakes to replace old bad grades also having some beneficial impact on the current degree plan, and thereby getting all the prereqs knocked out before graduation.

Thanks again, all. Glad to hear the differing opinions from people that are tapped into this subject and process. You have all been very helpful.

Sorry for the incoherence of this post, my fat indextrous thumbs and this phone is like Lennie Small holding a rabbit for rabbit neurosurgery.

The SMP is a real clincher. Think of yourself as fighter down on points in the later rounds. The SMP is going for a KO with a flurry of everything you've got left. Works best at the home institution. Better have heavy hands--academic chops--or you punch yourself out and your foe is smiling at your certain defeat.

The homespun gpa repair is a more patient but no less risky of defeat. Here you're trying to wear your opponent down for a submission or a decision. If decision it is less convincing. My application jujitsu maximized my strengths and was targeted to specific opponents where I knew I had something special to offer them--a gogoplata for the late round choke just when sdn thought its ground and pound had me finished. Some would say this luck but that's not how see it. It takes patience and technique to set this up.

What is this nonsense you ask? Fair enough. It means you have to decide what you can offer and how convincing you can be and to whom. Some think this is an end game decision, I say it's something to build from day 1. So that no 2 applicants should behave the exact same way. You could pursue any of these strategies, you could win, you could fail. This is the agonizing part of being where you're at, you want someone to say if do ABC you'll get XYZ, but unfortunately it doesn't work that way. 2 applicants could do the same thing and get different results.

Given the amount of courses you'd have to retake and the immobility of your gpa, I would give them 2-3 years of science A's, a repeat of your stellar MCAT, and split your applications between md and do with a do heavy balance.

Thats just what I would do if I was you. But remember to build up the other components of your app as well. You have a busy couple of years coming up.

 

[xxx2012]

http://www.tesc.edu/

This school claims to be able to make an AA or BA out of transfer credits alone (or that plus a few Clep exams if needed)

Seems kind of "shake&bake" but it is regionally accredited, so it's legit for admissions into grad schools.