Step 1 score mystery

[Siverhideo1985]

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This is a question that has been bothering me. I've interviewed at a few schools (mostly "mid-range") and I've heard plenty of talk from friends about other schools.

None of the schools ever have a "below average" Step 1 score. Not one. It's either on the average, slightly above, or above...but never slightly below. Where are these schools with lower Step 1 scores?? Is there a list out there with recent step scores for each school?

thanks for any pointers 🙂

 

[Captain Fantastic]

This is a question that has been bothering me. I've interviewed at a few schools (mostly "mid-range") and I've heard plenty of talk from friends about other schools.

None of the schools ever have a "below average" Step 1 score. Not one. It's either on the average, slightly above, or above...but never slightly below. Where are these schools with lower Step 1 scores?? Is there a list out there with recent step scores for each school?

thanks for any pointers 🙂

Nope, you can't find a list of step scores by school.

Off shore and osteopathic schools, as entities, don't typically score as well US MD schools do on the USMLE. So it's reasonable to expect a mid-tier school can pull in a mean just above the overall average of all students sitting for the exam.

 

[TexasPhysician]

No lists

Foreign students and DO's score lower than US MD students. Therefore they bring down the average so that US med schools look better. If only they made an "average" based on only US MD students.

 

[ChiDO]

No lists

Foreign students and DO's score lower than US MD students. Therefore they bring down the average so that US med schools look better. If only they made an "average" based on only US MD students.

Unless you can prove this with data (which you can't), don't assume that FMG and DO students score lower then US MD students.

To the OP: There was an entire thread about this very subject not too long ago. Basically, you cannot listen to what schools say because EVERY school says they are above average, which obviously cannot be true. These scores that schools report are NOT audited by an independent source, thus hold no actual weight.

The above two posters are just making assumptions based on no proven data. Thus, to answer your questions. There is no list, take what schools say with a grain of salt, and make your decision based on what school feels right. Just because a school has "above-average" scores (if it were true) doesn't mean you will score above average.

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

Unless you can prove this with data (which you can't), don't assume that FMG and DO students score lower then US MD students.

I think First Aid lists a chart of average Step I scores broken down by US MD, DO, and FMG categories. Could be wrong, and even if not the gap probably closes year-to-year, but I seem to remember DO and FMGs both scoring lower and having a higher failure rate than US allo.

 

[TexasPhysician]

Unless you can prove this with data (which you can't), don't assume that FMG and DO students score lower then US MD students.

To the OP: There was an entire thread about this very subject not too long ago. Basically, you cannot listen to what schools say because EVERY school says they are above average, which obviously cannot be true. These scores that schools report are NOT audited by an independent source, thus hold no actual weight.

The above two posters are just making assumptions based on no proven data. Thus, to answer your questions. There is no list, take what schools say with a grain of salt, and make your decision based on what school feels right. Just because a school has "above-average" scores (if it were true) doesn't mean you will score above average.

Ask and you shall receive. Link to USMLE site itself.

http://www.usmle.org/Scores_Transcripts/performance/2007.html

While no "true" average here, good luck making an argument that the extra 10+% of fails racked up by DO's and foreign MDs wouldn't drop their average score.

Passing Step 1 the first time
US MD: 93%
DO: 81%
Foreign MD: 70%

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

Ask and you shall receive. Link to USMLE site itself.

Passing Step 1 the first time
US MD: 93%
DO: 81%
Foreign MD: 70%

These numbers are so common sense I can't believe anyone would act like there was any other possibility.

 

[thoffen]

Just disregard any data you get for step 1 scores from schools. I'm not saying they're lying, but there are many ways of representing data to make you look good. If you want to figure out if the school provides quality education, talk to the students.

 

[ChiDO]

Ask and you shall receive. Link to USMLE site itself.

http://www.usmle.org/Scores_Transcripts/performance/2007.html

While no "true" average here, good luck making an argument that the extra 10+% of fails racked up by DO's and foreign MDs wouldn't drop their average score.

Passing Step 1 the first time
US MD: 93%
DO: 81%
Foreign MD: 70%

I knew that FMG/DO first time pass rate was lower on the USMLE then US MD, but my argument was that there is no "average" reported anywhere. One can assume that those scores bring down the average, but once again that is an assumption.

Like I said before, take what schools report as their scores as a grain of salt, because just because they have a 240 avg, doesn't mean you will score 240.

 

[TexasPhysician]

Shameless plug: Texas Tech has the highest pass rate in the nation.......


at 100% passing the first time.

My class of 2010. Can't speak for others.

 

[Chuck's Right Foot]

Ask and you shall receive. Link to USMLE site itself.

http://www.usmle.org/Scores_Transcripts/performance/2007.html

While no "true" average here, good luck making an argument that the extra 10+% of fails racked up by DO's and foreign MDs wouldn't drop their average score.

Passing Step 1 the first time
US MD: 93%
DO: 81%
Foreign MD: 70%

If the scores distributed similarly across subgroups, your argument is sound.

 

[Pghboy18]

Glad that someone brought this topic up. I always wondered how every school could be "above average".

In addition to everything else that has been brought up, it's also important to remember that schools don't usually attach a time frame to their claim that they're above average. In other words, are they considering all Step I scores ever? Are they considering only scores from last year? Last 5 years? As other posters have said, there are plenty of ways to manipulate these numbers.

 

[phospho]

This is a question that has been bothering me. I've interviewed at a few schools (mostly "mid-range") and I've heard plenty of talk from friends about other schools.

None of the schools ever have a "below average" Step 1 score. Not one. It's either on the average, slightly above, or above...but never slightly below. Where are these schools with lower Step 1 scores?? Is there a list out there with recent step scores for each school?

thanks for any pointers 🙂

When I was interviewing, I looked everywhere for a list but couldn't find anything. It seemed that the schools could tell us anything about their step 1 averages, and we would have nothing to corroborate it with. It bothered me for a while, but then I read somewhere that the USMLE people and the schools themselves want to avoid making this information public, since people would start ranking the schools according to the step 1 averages, and then the schools would be forced to teach to the boards instead of teaching you how to become a doctor (if that makes any sense).

A lot of the carib schools only teach to the boards. U.S. medical schools on the other hand don't want to be restricted to that only (for example a lot of schools have first year courses that teach you how to interview patients, which is not something that's going to help you on step 1).

At least that's how I understood it from what I was reading. Also, every US allopathic school's step 1 is above the average since the average includes the DO's and FMG's.

By the way, did you end up getting that US News subscription? Was it helpful?

 

[TexasPhysician]

I knew that FMG/DO first time pass rate was lower on the USMLE then US MD, but my argument was that there is no "average" reported anywhere. One can assume that those scores bring down the average, but once again that is an assumption.

Like I said before, take what schools report as their scores as a grain of salt, because just because they have a 240 avg, doesn't mean you will score 240.

a GOOD assumption.

Texas Tech's first pass percentage = 100%
Average DO school = 81%
Foreign MD school = 70%

You believe that with an average score of approximately 225 on Step 1 and failing below 185 that DO schools could have an equal overall average with an extra 19% of the class being a minimum 40 points below average? Much less foreign MD schools........

Would anyone like to argue that Texas Tech is even a top ranked MD school......? As a student there, I can admit that its no Top 25 school. The nation probably views us as average at best.

 

[IHeartNerds]

Shameless plug: Texas Tech has the highest pass rate in the nation.......at 100% passing the first time.

yeah uh well ours is 105% beat that! 😉

In all seriousness, it's maddening how much people obsess over Step 1 and "averages". Is it your school or my school's fault if we fail Step 1? Does Tech become a less good school if one student fails? I would argue no, it's the individual's fault. Same goes for 250+ scores...really, that was the person's doing, not the school's.

The old psychology 101 mantra comes back .... correlation does not prove causation

shameless plug: penn's average for the grad class of 2008 was 242. booya.

 

[TexasPhysician]

yeah uh well ours is 105% beat that! 😉

In all seriousness, it's maddening how much people obsess over Step 1 and "averages". Is it your school or my school's fault if we fail Step 1? Does Tech become a less good school if one student fails? I would argue no, it's the individual's fault. Same goes for 250+ scores...really, that was the person's doing, not the school's.

The old psychology 101 mantra comes back .... correlation does not prove causation

shameless plug: penn's average for the grad class of 2008 was 242. booya.

haha agreed. Not the school's fault. Only yours.

 

[Siverhideo1985]

Thanks for all the responses! Its interesting how much average step 1 scores are kept in the dark by most schools.

I don't think that the average really matters all that much, except that it could potentially point out how strong a program prepares you for the step 1. If two schools with similar GPA averages and MCAT scores end up having vastly different averages it might say something about the prep period at those schools.

Anyhoos...Thanks Texas for posting that website. I think it is save to say that DO and FMD have lower averages...there is no indication that their distributions would be anything but bell curve shaped...not that it really matters...

...as usual it always comes down to what you make of it and how much you prepare for it.

I just wanted to know if everyone is just as mystified by the schools' claims and that seems to be the case 🙂

 

[235009]

I knew that FMG/DO first time pass rate was lower on the USMLE then US MD, but my argument was that there is no "average" reported anywhere. One can assume that those scores bring down the average, but once again that is an assumption.

Like I said before, take what schools report as their scores as a grain of salt, because just because they have a 240 avg, doesn't mean you will score 240.

wow, kindly stfu and stop making a fool of yourself

there is definitely no leap in logic here:

Foreign students and DO's score lower than US MD students. Therefore they bring down the average so that US med schools look better. If only they made an "average" based on only US MD students.

given the pass rates that were just presented

i'm sorry this hurts your ego but casting doubt on pretty basic logic isn't the same as presenting any facts that would counter the argument

 

[mmmcdowe]

I knew that FMG/DO first time pass rate was lower on the USMLE then US MD, but my argument was that there is no "average" reported anywhere. One can assume that those scores bring down the average, but once again that is an assumption.

Like I said before, take what schools report as their scores as a grain of salt, because just because they have a 240 avg, doesn't mean you will score 240.

This is an excellent example of pride not wanting to concede the point. Assuming 30% of the class is getting 180, how high would the rest of the students have to be getting an average of 225, which would be higher than average for all school? 244! Do you really think that FMGs are averaging 244 and still having trouble getting anything other than FP? God bless them if they are.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Who cares what the school's average is, it's all about YOUR score.

 

[classdodger]

so much for every school being above the mean

http://uuhsc.utah.edu/som/College_Council/2008/Student Affairs College council 08.htm

 

[MilkmanAl]

I think UAMS's was right at or below the average, too. 220 last year or something.

 

[veaselhaufen]

apparently law2doc has taken the day off 😕

 

[ChiDO]

Who cares what the school's average is, it's all about YOUR score.

👍

I'm done arguing a moot point. Read this thread, specifically law2doc's posts.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=621835

 

[Law2Doc]

apparently law2doc has taken the day off 😕

LOL - it's okay, some people have spouted the party line for me. The short answer is this -- there is no place to get honest, audited Step 1 data. Schools have tacitly agreed not to release this info because it's felt that it ties their hands in terms of getting creative with teaching (eg using PBL etc). So don't expect to get good step 1 data. Worse than this, because schools know you can't get this data anywhere, they take liberties. So you will hear every school saying they are above average (and not above average compared to offshore schools, but above average for US schools). Meaning half aren't being honest. Or they are playing games -- counting the PhD students in whatever year suits them best, ignoring failing grades that have been retaken for better scores, or looking at scores over X number of years so they can say above average over the past few years. So don't buy any of it.

But I think Pinkertinkle hit the nail on the head. Step 1 is a very individual result. You don't get this based on what school you attend, you get it based on how much time and effort you put in, and what kind of ability and memory you have. So the school is looking at you to give them a good score, not vice versa. All med students will be exposed to the same material prior to step 1, because the LCME requires the same number of hours devoted to the same courses at each school. And all med students use the same FA and other board review resources, and use the same question banks. So how the step 1 pans out depends totally on you. You will get that same 240 whether you go to the best school or the worst. And either way, the school you attend is going to make grandiose claims, because they think premeds want to hear how the school makes a difference. When you are selling a product that is about the same as everybody else's, you need to do a certain amount of puffery. Don't eat it up.

 

[Acherona]

I can tell you right now which schools have the highest Step I scores: the ones with the highest GPA and MCAT scores because they attract the most motivated/highest scoring students.

Medical school curricula are standardized by the accreditation committee and their minor differences will have very very little impact on your USMLE score. Like others said, your scores reflects how much you study + natural ability so forget about using it as a criterion for choosing a med school, it's silly.

 

[Law2Doc]

I can tell you right now which schools have the highest Step I scores: the ones with the highest GPA and MCAT scores because they attract the most motivated/highest scoring students.
...

Not necessarily. I sure wouldn't rely on this notion as gospel. The skillset necessary to do well in college or on the MCAT don't always translate to the USMLE. The couple of studies suggesting some correlation between MCAT and USMLE have shown such an absurdly small correlation that there is far from a one to one correlation between doing well in college and on the boards. If what you suggested were true the correlation would be much bigger. It isn't. A slight correlation exists but hardly enough to suggest what you are suggesting.

So basically what you probably would really see if you had access to the numbers is that many schools, but not all, that attract the top numbers probably have folks who continue those numbers. But it's a very safe bet, based on the minimal correlation, that there will be several top number schools who won't have impressive board scores, and even more likely a number of schools that attract people for other reasons (such as an inexpensive state school), that ends up with step scores in the upper echelon.

 

[Mattabet]

Not necessarily. I sure wouldn't rely on this notion as gospel. The skillset necessary to do well in college or on the MCAT don't always translate to the USMLE. The couple of studies suggesting some correlation between MCAT and USMLE have shown such an absurdly small correlation that there is far from a one to one correlation between doing well in college and on the boards. If what you suggested were true the correlation would be much bigger. It isn't. A slight correlation exists but hardly enough to suggest what you are suggesting.

April 2000 AAMC MCAT Correlation Study

This study by the AAMC found the correlation between MCAT and Step 1 scores to be .69; by no means overwhelming, but 'absurdly small' misrepresents the finding. I'm not sure the extent to which other studies have verified this, but it seems worth mentioning that medical schools use the MCAT for a reason. If it were useless for predicting success, they would come up with a better test.

That being said, a lot of the above sentiments seem to make sense to me. It's kind of a white lie that everyone is above average; it just doesn't matter that much (to a majority of students, anyway). US Med. Schools are great and getting you to pass Step 1, and for the majority of specialties, pass is good enough.

P=MD, as it were.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

April 2000 AAMC MCAT Correlation Study

This study by the AAMC found the correlation between MCAT and Step 1 scores to be .69; by no means overwhelming, but 'absurdly small' misrepresents the finding. I'm not sure the extent to which other studies have verified this, but it seems worth mentioning that medical schools use the MCAT for a reason. If it were useless for predicting success, they would come up with a better test.

That being said, a lot of the above sentiments seem to make sense to me. It's kind of a white lie that everyone is above average; it just doesn't matter that much (to a majority of students, anyway). US Med. Schools are great and getting you to pass Step 1, and for the majority of specialties, pass is good enough.

P=MD, as it were.

I don't want to get into this with L2D again since it comes down to semantics, but I do agree that there's a reasonable amount of correlation between the MCAT and USMLE as they require similar skill sets.

Do want to add that passing the USMLE isn't going to cut it for most specialties. That could be said of doing average on them, but you'll have a hard time matching a reasonable medicine program with 190 on step 1. It would behoove the student to do as well as s/he can since doing more than passing provides more options with regard to location and program reputation within specialties.

 

[Law2Doc]

... If it were useless for predicting success, they would come up with a better test.
...

Actually the NBME is desperately trying to revamp the USMLE as we speak, and has plans to combine some of the steps. So while the MCAT may have some predictive value for the USMLE, there are efforts to make the USMLE a different, and better test.

The study you linked does have what I would consider small correlation. Not nonexistent, but you'd be way out in left field if you drew conclusions from that study to suggest that the schools with the top MCATs will have the top board scores -- it doesn't say that at all. That's what I'm saying.

Additionally, I suggest that you need to read this study critically, because it makes some claims that are a bit non-scientific. And even if you buy into the claims, I still would assert that this is not a useful study to extrapolate to today because (1) the demographics of med school have changed pretty drastically from 1992 to today (more women, more nontrads, more nonsci majors), notwithstanding that the demongraphics may have been accurate at the time of the study, (2) both the MCAT and USMLE have undergone many changes since 1992, including computer based testing, and more multiple step questions on the USMLE, so it's unclear that the same data is even still applicable to these tests which barely resemble their 1992 counterparts, (3) Along the same lines, study courses and guides have evolved over time -- people didn't have access to the kinds of question banks everybody uses now in 1992, so preparation for the USMLE and probably the MCAT are amazingly different today than in 1992, and (4) the study only looked at students at 14 schools, and today there are over 125 and most have significantly more seats, so the n in the study may not be as statistically significant today.

So let's not kid ourselves that "some" correlation found in the past will translate to the one to one kind of correlation necessary to assume a school with top MCAT gets the top USMLE.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
Do want to add that passing the USMLE isn't going to cut it for most specialties....

Agree with this. Passing isn't the goal. P may = MD, but it equals the MD who has no control over his destiny. A high board score puts you in the drivers seat in terms of specialty choice, geographic location, program.