Step 1 stats for schools and residencies

[BillyRubinstein]

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ANyone out there aware of a site that posts the different step 1 averages at different schools? or even avg. step 1 scores for first year docs in various residency programs?

 

[BillyRubinstein]

Is it really appropriate to then turn around and come to the US, without giving anything back to that country? Don't those people need medical care too?
And yes, there are areas of the country that are underserved and less desirable residencies that need to be filled. But with the increasing number of medical schools and increasing class sizes, we will hopefully end up with the ability to supply enough students to fill our own residency classes. And there will be room in our medical schools for more qualified applicants who would have otherwise ended up in at a school outside of the US.

Maybe it's a pet peeve of mine, but I find it exceptionally annoying when someone makes comments regarding something they know nothing about - "Is it really appropriate to then turn around and come to the US, without giving anything back to that country?"......yea, it's way off topic from the initial posting, so I'm sorry to add to this rather silly drama that we all created, but it's really sad that you make this rhetorical statement. You honestly have NO IDEA what SGU and other Caribbean have schools have given back to their country. I won't even begin listing, but the only reason Grenada is where it is today is because of the school being located on island. The graduates and students have done more volunteer work and put in more time in their two years in Grenada,to helping that country develop, than you or any other american student would do in a lifetime. Are you aware that graduates travel to Grenada yearly and volunteer their time as surgeons to perform procedures on the native people that can't afford to travel to the U.S.? Don't make me continue, it'll go on for a while.

 

[JeffLebowski]

This was my initial post......I find it rather comical how many of you (not all) are so quick to spit out your opinions as to what program(s) I have the potential to make it into or even if I'll match at all. Take the time to read what this thread was supposed to be about - I simply asked if anyone had a website that listed info regarding various residency programs and what their avg. step 1 score representation was. I never asked for your pinhead opinions....this was not a "what are my chances" post. Before you carry out your urge to spue out your daily load of crap at me (I know its hard to hold it in since you all scored a 260+), just understand that your opinions about what I, or other Caribbean graduates can achieve, is the equivalent to a drunken confabulation of words to me. I'm sorry, but your opinions don't count.

Dude you were the one who brought up that you were asking because you wanted to stack up yourself against U.S. MD applicants. Don't make it out like all of a sudden we started attacking you, you can't blame people for responding to that.

Just trying (simply out of curiosity) to see how my step 1 score stacks up against different U.S. schools, since I go to SGU and scored rather lowly on the mcat (24) and managed to pull out a 239 on the step 1.... for those of us who didn't get into a U.S. school it was quite frustrating always being told how the mcat correlates with step 1 performance....

...and incidentally, no one is attacking you. We've stated some valid opinions and prevalent perspectives on the issue. We've stated being foreign trained, nor caribbean grad, is not necessarily an indicator of being a sub-par physician. It sounds like you really want to take the opinions stated on this thread personally, however.

 

[Law2Doc]

Dude you were the one who brought up that you were asking because you wanted to stack up yourself against U.S. MD applicants. Don't make it out like all of a sudden we started attacking you, you can't blame people for responding to that.



...and incidentally, no one is attacking you. We've stated some valid opinions and prevalent perspectives on the issue. We've stated being foreign trained, nor caribbean grad, is not necessarily an indicator of being a sub-par physician. It sounds like you really want to take the opinions stated on this thread personally, however.

Exactly. On a personal level, I hope the SGU dude gets what he seeks. But on a more objective level, I don't think that US folks coming from offshore schools are going to have great luck matching into the top programs in any field, and if they do, they will need to have far exceeded the average numbers of their US counterparts. That's all I'm saying. (And I think more or less all I did say). But I wish the dude good luck.

And to ZonaRidicularus, I think you need to reread my posts because in most I was talking about US students training in Caribbean schools. I made no comments relating to "intelligence and innovation" of foreign students training in their native countries. The only comment I made was that US MDs and DOs shouldn't join forces with foreign docs in their struggle against DNPs. There is a sentiment, expressed by the AAMC and others, that the number of US trained physicians should fill US healthcare needs, and we shouldn't import doctors. I don't really see how this viewpoint, isolationist though it may be, disparages foreign doctors. Quite a few countries have fine medical programs. The ones which opened up as a cottage industry to train US folks who couldn't get into their own country's schools are not similarly situated to these. And it is this group that the AAMC was aiming its barbs.

As for comparing doctors and lawyers (in terms of defending their licensure), you'd be surprised to know that law was among the oldest organized professions, and we had law schools in this country before med schools. A lot of this is due to the fact that doctors didn't have much to offer their patients beyond bleeding and leeches until much later on in man's history.
(And cool it with the "******ed" language. That's a politically incorrect term that most folks gave up in grade school.)

 

[ZonaRidicularis]

z

 

[Law2Doc]

...but it touched a nerve when I thought you were implying that the US is the only place in the world with bright forward-thinking doctors and everyone else is living in a cave or something. Obviously I misread your comment....

I think there's a lot of displaced anger against Caribbean graduates b/c people think they took the easy way out as far as gaining acceptance to a medical school. Everything else... not so easy.

I have no clue where you got the anti-foreign doctor thing from my post, but it seems like you were reading what you wanted to read and not what the words said. I can't help you with that.

As for "displaced anger", I think the only anger on this thread is coming from you and the SGU guy. I don't think any other posts took that stance. A lot of posts suggested that US students training in the Caribbean don't generally get the top residencies. I don't think that statement connotes hostility in any way. And I don't think anyone suggested the offshore route was the easy way out. I think we all agree it is much harder, and thus a lot of things tend to be out of reach at the end. Again, you can read in hostility if you'd like, but most of the US med student posts were pretty objectively written.

 

[ZonaRidicularis]

z

 

[peter90036]

I don't think that US folks coming from offshore schools are going to have great luck matching into the top programs

why? only TOP programs are able to "make" good doctors?

US trained physicians should fill US healthcare needs, and we shouldn't import doctors.

why? US healthcare doesn't import doctors. Foreign grads go thru the same steps of licensure as AMGs.
(...you mean why aren't IMGs made to do medschool over again - like dental do now?)

 

[Law2Doc]

I don't think I was reading into anything.. this is the comment I was referring to.

As far as hostility against Caribbean graduates, I agree you were not being hostile. I was speaking generally and it was not directed against you. I should have made that more clear. Anyhow, the "displaced anger" comment is just my opinion based on people I've spoken with as well as some of the threads I've seen on this forum. I know that everyone does not feel this way.

As far as competitive residencies, I agree that IMG's have to work harder and make their applications as complete as possible in order to land interviews that the AMG's are also going after. After all, the US should give their own graduates with good applications preference because they are from their own country. I wouldn't expect them not to. I think that's completely fair and I don't think I have stated anything otherwise.

BillyRubinstein... congratulations on your score! It sounds like you're on the right track and I hope you are able to continue making high achievements so you can get the residency of your choice. Like I've suggested before, take a look at the NRMP data so you can get a good idea of what kinds of things will make you competitive for certain programs. The data is all on this website: http://www.nrmp.org/data/index.html It looks like doing research and having publications is the way to go. Goodluck.

Again, US schools boxing out the others isn't hostile. It's called maintaining a monopoly. This statement does not suggest or imply anything about the quality of education or medicine elsewhere. It is the notion that US education should satisfy US needs. The concept is just as true even if the non-US systems were better than the US. Most other industrialized countries take this isolationist approach. You'd have a very hard time becoming educated in the US and going off to practice in a European country, for example.

The AAMC/LCME focuses on their lack of ability to control quality offshore. But I think it's more basic. It's simply a bad idea to import export students offshore and later import them back to be physicians.

 

[Law2Doc]

why? only TOP programs are able to "make" good doctors?



why? US healthcare doesn't import doctors. Foreign grads go thru the same steps of licensure as AMGs.
(...you mean why aren't IMGs made to do medschool over again - like dental do now?)

I don't understand your post, and it's clear you didn't understand mine.
(1) I never said anything even resembling the notion that top programs are the only ones able to make good doctors. A prior poster wants to get into a "top program" (Columbia was mentioned). I said it's unlikely that US students trained offshore in the Caribbean will match into those slots. Nothing more. I didn't say he was worse than his US counterparts, nor did I say a non-top program would be a worse option for him. Just that I think odds of getting a top program weren't that good given his pedigree, and that he would need better stats than his US counterparts to get the same kind of consideration.

(2) As for your second point, I think you are mistaken. The US absolutely imports doctors when it offers more residency seats then there are US educated doctors. By definition these folks are coming from elsewhere. So yeah, when the number of people who matriculate at US schools is fewer than the number of residency slots 4 years later, we have, as a field, made a conscious decision to import physicians. I don't know what your parenthetical has to do with my posts -- I didn't suggest anywhere that anyone was less qualified, or that folks couldn't attain licensure, just that the system probably should be adjusted so that their services shouldn't be sought at all.

And this isn't my idea, BTW. Check out press releases from the AAMC president (esp. in 2005-6, which corresponds to when US med schools were asked to increase their ranks by 10-15%).

 

[GMDMD]

I know there are some people out there who clump all Caribbean schools together - WRONG....try not to do it - it's quite annoying for a school like SGU to be anchored down by the random "pop-up" caribbean schools that seem to be founded on a daily basis.....

Why do you get so upset when people distinguish between US and carribean schools but you think it's okay to distinguish between SGU and lower tier caribbean schools? It seems elitist and unfair to look down upon these other schools which are no doubt filled with qualified applicants who simply didn't have the mcat/grades to make SGU.

 

[peter90036]

the AAMC/AMA/etc should focus on 1. improving the quality of the average of the output of US Medical schools, as it seems they will increase the # of medschool graduates and i don't see that creating any better doctors.

at least from the large pool of IMGs they can pick and choose/as opposed to US grads which have to get into a residency.

and 2. disbanding/changing the current absurdity which are the so-called "insurance" companies.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Why do you get so upset when people distinguish between US and carribean schools but you think it's okay to distinguish between SGU and lower tier caribbean schools? It seems elitist and unfair to look down upon these other schools which are no doubt filled with qualified applicants who simply didn't have the mcat/grades to make SGU.

Good point.

 

[45408]

Just exactly what is your definition of FOREIGN-TRAINED and what is your hang up about doctors that are trained in other countries? There is an exam out there - its called the UNITED STATES (yes UNITED STATES OF AMERICAN THAT IS) medical licensing exam....maybe I should spell this out for you a bit more......ok....pay attention now - this exam tests the knowledge of medical students who are wishing to become licensed to practice medicine in......ok...now you fill in the blank - Yes...you are correct - the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.......now please feel free to answer, but what the f**k is the purpose of having an exam that holds everyone to the same standards, if people are going to be blinded by what school we attended, which ultimately boils down to how we did on our mcat (an exam which assesses absolutely no medical knowledge)......what exacly is the purpose of the USMLE then???

Here is where you should really take a few notes - us FOREIGN-TRAINED Caribbean students, are actually trained in the same country as your are! You must be thinkinking, "OMG, this can't be possible, they are supposed to trained in a foreign country!" Well here's a question for you - from your experience as a medical student, how much TRAINING (no, not reading textbooks) did you receive in your first two years of basic science study, as opposed to what you have or will be receiving as a clinical student during your last two years. At SGU and most other Carib programs, students complete only their first 2 years in the caribbean (at Ross, it's even less). Now do the math - this leaves the last two years of school to be completed in the U.S.A, YOUR COUNTRY. Wait, maybe this makes us American-Trained students......hmmm.....doesn't really sound like hour baseless arguement of foreign-trained doctors is really all too accurate. Last time I checked, my school and many of the other top Caribbean programs pattern their academic programs after U.S. medical schools and actually follow the same set of guidelines set forth by the LCME, though we are not technically accredited by them. But honestly, in the end, what should matter is the kind of doctors these schools are producing, not what kind students they accept. SGU produces doctors with brains, not egos.....you might wanna have that checked out.

oh, you mean the chip on your shoulder?

 

[ZonaRidicularis]

z

 

[nowai]

Why do you get so upset when people distinguish between US and carribean schools but you think it's okay to distinguish between SGU and lower tier caribbean schools? It seems elitist and unfair to look down upon these other schools which are no doubt filled with qualified applicants who simply didn't have the mcat/grades to make SGU.

hahahha

 

[JeffLebowski]

I personally think it would be extremely unfortunate not to have residency slots for non-US physicians. The advancement of medical science is based on new research and ideas and it would be a great disservice to take on an isolationist approach like other nations. That's what makes the US unique, the land of opportunity not only allows opportunities for it's citizens but also for educated professionals from other countries that can provide their knowledge/services/research to make this country a better place and contribute to medical science globally. Why would we want to keep these people out? Do you know how difficult it is to obtain citizenship in this country? It's pretty difficult. However, a lot of US hospitals sponsor visa's for doctors to do residency here. It's not a bad idea, in my opinion, to attract intelligent professionals to this country. There's a reason why most people think the US is the best place to live in. After all, this is a country of immigrants.

Just think of how the space race or even the invention of the atomic bomb would have turned out if it were not for the collaborative efforts of American scientists and foreign scientists. It's not a good idea to "box them out"... think globally.

Dude - NO ONE IS SAYING FOREIGN TRAINED DOCTORS AREN'T VALUABLE. The problem is that they are also valuable to their home country, who also has a populace to take care of. Domestic medical school seats are created to train doctors for their country. How much trouble would we be in if China had awesome residency training, lucrative compensation, better opportunities, better quality of life, and tons of open spots to be trained and practice as a physician than the U.S.? What if physicians started going to med school here, with the intention of practicing overseas? Do you really think it's good for a country to have a chunk of their medical school seats take their degree overseas? It's not. It's not fair to other countries for us to attract their doctors away from them, when they probably already have a shortage. That's the problem. We currently have a system that drains doctors from other countries because the number of residency training spots far exceeds our medical school graduates. And the ones we "import" are not domestically trained, so there's a level of uncertainty in their training. Not because they're not as good, but because there's no way the LCME can accredit or evaluate every medical school in the world. Passing USMLE exams doesn't ensure the same standard of training.

But the caribbean schools are not draining doctors from foreign countries, they're taking U.S. citizens as medical students who would not have been trained domestically otherwise (for various reasons, but mostly because they were academically underqualified to gain admission here) and giving them a loophole to be trained as a physician with access to train and practice in the U.S. This has its own set of problems, which I don't think should be addressed in a "Step 1 stats for schools and residencies" thread. But it's not a healthy system. I'm not saying students relegated to taking the caribbean route shouldn't practice in the U.S., I'm saying they should, and there should be enough medical school seats domestically to accept the ones who are qualified to fill them so that we can train them in our own domestic system.

 

[tfom08]

Are the Caribbean programs PA programs or actual physicians? I used to think they were physicians (DOs or MDs) until my friends and I were talking about it because they knew some people who were applying from the Caribbean medical schools and they were trying to match into the IM residency at my school but the program director here doesn't give interviews to Caribbean students because they aren't actually physicians but are actually PA's which are very useful, but not the same training as an actual MD or DO from the states. But I'm not sure if the residency director was meaning that they actually have a PA degree or just that a Caribbean MD or DO is the equivalent of a PA degree from the US. Can anyone clarify this?

As for the Step 1 scores, I agree that not many schools publish reliable data. I think my school floats "facts" such as: Our students score slightly above the national mean like around 55-60 %ile. Which I wouldn't be surprised if it's more like 40-45 %ile but schools probably like to fudge the facts so that they aren't below avg because really who wants to say "our school below average.

 

[ZonaRidicularis]

z

 

[diosa428]

Maybe it's a pet peeve of mine, but I find it exceptionally annoying when someone makes comments regarding something they know nothing about - "Is it really appropriate to then turn around and come to the US, without giving anything back to that country?"......yea, it's way off topic from the initial posting, so I'm sorry to add to this rather silly drama that we all created, but it's really sad that you make this rhetorical statement. You honestly have NO IDEA what SGU and other Caribbean have schools have given back to their country. I won't even begin listing, but the only reason Grenada is where it is today is because of the school being located on island. The graduates and students have done more volunteer work and put in more time in their two years in Grenada,to helping that country develop, than you or any other american student would do in a lifetime. Are you aware that graduates travel to Grenada yearly and volunteer their time as surgeons to perform procedures on the native people that can't afford to travel to the U.S.? Don't make me continue, it'll go on for a while.

I wasn't talking about Caribbean schools. I was talking about the foreign MDs who train in their own country and then leave to work in the US. Believe it or not, there are other FMGs besides those of you in the Caribbean.

 

[diosa428]

Are the Caribbean programs PA programs or actual physicians? I used to think they were physicians (DOs or MDs) until my friends and I were talking about it because they knew some people who were applying from the Caribbean medical schools and they were trying to match into the IM residency at my school but the program director here doesn't give interviews to Caribbean students because they aren't actually physicians but are actually PA's which are very useful, but not the same training as an actual MD or DO from the states. But I'm not sure if the residency director was meaning that they actually have a PA degree or just that a Caribbean MD or DO is the equivalent of a PA degree from the US. Can anyone clarify this?

As for the Step 1 scores, I agree that not many schools publish reliable data. I think my school floats "facts" such as: Our students score slightly above the national mean like around 55-60 %ile. Which I wouldn't be surprised if it's more like 40-45 %ile but schools probably like to fudge the facts so that they aren't below avg because really who wants to say "our school below average.

Ummm they're physicians. And like those who receive an MD/DO in the US, they are eligible to sit for the licensing exams for doctors ONLY. US medical school grads cannot sit for the PA licensing exams, and neither can foreign medical grads. Once foreign grads have been licensed in the US they can practice here as doctors. They don't ever practice as PAs. That whole conversation just seems odd.

 

[blz]

This is a funny thread.

 

[docmd2010]

To the original poster, your theory that "i took the same test as you, and did better than most, why not me" is indeed very logical. HOWEVER, it is not pragmatic.

I'm a D.O. student, and trust me I'm aware of all this myself. But I'm come to accept it. I know that no matter how well I do in med school or how close to perfect i get on the step 1, I will have a very difficult time becoming a dermatologist (md residency) and won't get to become a resident at Johns Hopkins. It sucks. Yes i know. But i've accepted it. But there's more to life than kissin some prick's ass at columbia trying to become a neurologist. Who the hell cares dude? Just get into the best neurology program you can get into and quit bi***in up a storm. A neurologist who trained at UMass opposed to MGH will not be worse off.

Congrats on ure step score-it's a great score. apply to the top, if you want, but I wouldnt be optimistic about your chances at any of those schools.

 

[BillyRubinstein]

Well, it looks like for me this fun little drama will be coming to an end, as I'm starting my surgery rotation. I'm not really sure what kind of choke hold this rotation will have on my free time, but I expect it to be quite strong, so my SDN lurking will most likely be rather sporadic.

I can't leave this little forest fire I inadvertently started without a few parting words to my contributors (I'll try and be as personal as possible):

First off, I must say that I was in fact the one who started this little debate (by accident) by letting out a bit of a rant in one of my first posts under this thread regarding the correlation between the mcat and usmle step 1 (looking back on it now, it was more of letting out some steam from comments that were made to me years ago about how the mcat will predict the step 1 - I couldn't help but to be proud that I defied this statistic {as MANY others have also}. I will be the first to admit, I shouldn't have broadcasted this ). I also made the mistake of posting my score, and then proceeded to throw out a rhetorical "I wonder how I stack up against U.S. students." This was not meant to spur an arguement, but was really meant to see if anyone had a website that listed the avg's for different schools step 1 performance. I became quite curious of this data as a response to a small rift that is taking place publically between SGU and some NYC medical schools regarding rotation spots. If you care to listen, by all means....(http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/news-events/news-archives08-WNYC-radio-interview-chancellor-modica.html).

Law2Doc - I'm sorry, but I have too much personal pride to be told that I should be happy "to just match" or that I was a "washout" as an applicant, because I will be an IMG. You initially made it sound like U.S. students get the "cream of the crop" matches, and we are left for the scraps...this is just not true - go check the last many years of our match list on our website, and you will see otherwise. Does our entire class stack up against the avg. American class - Yes it actually does. 99% of our grads to get into a residency, albeit a large chunk go into internal med, but more and more students are matching into very competetive fields and very good programs. An avg. class size at our school is around 300+ (way too big in my opinion and yours), but if you take the top 1/3 of our class, we're probably above the U.S. avg for the step 1 (altogether, we're about 4-5 pts. below the national avg.)

Pinkertinkle - I like the chip on your shoulder joke - very appropriate to use it after my word splurge

The person who posted the same joke on the following page - it was kind of stupid to read the same joke twice.....hahaha...yes a chip on my shoulder

diosa428 - I aplolgize for taking your comment personally about "giving back to the country we went to school in." You obviously don't go to my school, so it would be impossible for you to understand that we actually have kept the island of Grenada afloat (no pun intended) and have helped develop this country (many other Caribbean do the same for their respective home islands). The amt. that SGU students and grads give back to Grenada is actually quite astounding. Because I would consider myself part of this, I took it a bit personally.

GMDMD - I think you posted my favorite comment, and it was appropriate given my prior comments. ALTHOUGH, just understand that there is a much more narrow margin between the the board exam stats between SGU (as well as other top foreign schools) and the avg. American school, than there is between SGU and these other lower-tier Caribbean schools that open and close as frequently as automatic doors in a trauma center. There are many foreign medical schools that have been well established and produce graduates as a whole who are on par with typical american students. When I read statements by someone like Law2Doc posting that we are all unregulated and unaccredited in an attempt to imply we are not worthy of joining forces with American students, it is just annoying.

And to those who have asked me to stop b*itching or have stated that I am angry, I'm sorry to disappoint, but I really have nothing to be angry or b*itch about...I couldn't be happier with the way everything has turned out with my medical education and my USMLE step 1 score....

To all the IMG's out there, don't hold back....go get what you've earned....only we know the road we've had to travel to get where we are today, and in many of our cases it's been no "Caribbean picnic or European excursion. Don't get dragged into the self-fulfilling prophesy of always being "inferior," in a world of more qualified medical school applicants, because a med school applicant doesn't make a doctor, a graduate does.

I do sincerely want to thank everyone for their input regarding step 1 advice. Reading posts on a daily basis while I was studying helped me to focus on topics that were more emphasized by the majority, and I followed that lead for my own prep. Good luck to all of you and may we all remember that we are all entering the medical profession to be doctors, and we WILL always be doctors no matter where we come from, where we are educated, and wherever we end up.

 

[Law2Doc]

Well, it looks like for me this fun little drama will be coming to an end, as I'm starting my surgery rotation. ...

When I read statements by someone like Law2Doc posting that we are all unregulated and unaccredited in an attempt to imply we are not worthy of joining forces with American students, it is just annoying.

Dude, I'm just echoing statements issued by the AAMC you can find on the web, and not "implying" or "attempting" anything other than the actual words I said. Don't read into my posts things you think I believe/intend but didn't say. That is why folks are saying you have a chip on your shoulder. But anyway, good luck with your surgery rotation, and good luck next year with the match.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Law2Doc - You initially made it sound like U.S. students get the "cream of the crop" matches, and we are left for the scraps...this is just not true - go check the last many years of our match list on our website, and you will see otherwise. Does our entire class stack up against the avg. American class - Yes it actually does. 99% of our grads to get into a residency, albeit a large chunk go into internal med, but more and more students are matching into very competetive fields and very good programs. An avg. class size at our school is around 300+ (way too big in my opinion and yours), but if you take the top 1/3 of our class, we're probably above the U.S. avg for the step 1 (altogether, we're about 4-5 pts. below the national avg.)

First- nice job on the score.

I have to disagree with you about the match. The average SGU class does not stack up evenly against the average US medical class. I am not trying to detract from your or your classmate's achievement. The numbers just arent the same.

 

[peter90036]

"U.S. students get the "cream of the crop" matches, and we are left for the scraps...this is just not true"

yes that is true. its very true, and as an IMG you should get used to the idea that a US grad with lower score or less nicer resume will get preference.

even so, if one works hard and proves themselves, there still is possibility to end up in competitive specialties such as gastro, cardio, and in good programs such as Mayo Clinic or Harvard.

 

[ZonaRidicularis]

z

 

[nbme123456]

"U.S. students get the "cream of the crop" matches, and we are left for the scraps...this is just not true"

yes that is true. its very true, and as an IMG you should get used to the idea that a US grad with lower score or less nicer resume will get preference.

even so, if one works hard and proves themselves, there still is possibility to end up in competitive specialties such as gastro, cardio, and in good programs such as Mayo Clinic or Harvard.

Actually this might not even be true. A Ross student doing his elective in anesthesiology at Mayo clinic was told to his face by one of the attendings that he would be a shoe in for a anesthesiology residency there if he wasn't an IMG.

 

[peter90036]

there are possibilities, such as doing good in an IM program, standing out, research, etc

i know 1 who is going to anesthesio at Harvard and 1 whos doing cardio at Mayo, and they're not at NYU or one of those big name programs.

 

[ZonaRidicularis]

z

 

[Law2Doc]

Now I'm not saying that anything is wrong with your story... I just wanted everyone to hear what I heard (from my cousin's best friends' uncle).. and everyone should believe it. The source is reliable. Just sayin'

Yeah, anecdotal evidence isn't particularly probative here in EITHER direction. We all probably know one or two folks from offshore programs who did fine, one or two others who didn't do so fine. In schools with classes of "300+" what happens to one or two folks isn't really statistically significant, even if true. So it's kind of meaningless that peter knows of a caribbean trained resident at Harvard or that nbme1234 knows of a Ross student who didn't get the nod.

However I have to admit that polar bear in your story sounds quite impressive and I'm sure will make a fine anesthesiologist for the hearing impaired. I just wouldn't want to be the poor orderly who has to clean up after him.

 

[nbme123456]

Yeah, anecdotal evidence isn't particularly probative here in EITHER direction. We all probably know one or two folks from offshore programs who did fine, one or two others who didn't do so fine. In schools with classes of "300+" what happens to one or two folks isn't really statistically significant, even if true. So it's kind of meaningless that peter knows of a caribbean trained resident at Harvard or that nbme1234 knows of a Ross student who didn't get the nod.

However I have to admit that polar bear in your story sounds quite impressive and I'm sure will make a fine anesthesiologist for the hearing impaired. I just wouldn't want to be the poor orderly who has to clean up after him.

I am not saying this happens to most IMG students. I was only repling to peter9006's statement that sometimes as an IMG your best doesn't quite cut it. As I apply for electives right now the first question the registrar asks me is "what achool I attend" and when I tell them I am an IMG, they quickly try to get me off the phone no matter what my step 1 score is. This doesn't happen with all hospitals but as an IMG it is frustrating that some of the better hospitals won't even give me chance to prove myself.

 

[JeffLebowski]

I am not saying this happens to most IMG students. I was only repling to peter9006's statement that sometimes as an IMG your best doesn't quite cut it. As I apply for electives right now the first question the registrar asks me is "what achool I attend" and when I tell them I am an IMG, they quickly try to get me off the phone no matter what my step 1 score is. This doesn't happen with all hospitals but as an IMG it is frustrating that some of the better hospitals won't even give me chance to prove myself.

I can understand it's frustrating, but didn't you know that's the way it was going to be when you started? I guess I really don't understand why some of posters think U.S. grads and foreign grads should be considered on equal footing. They shouldn't.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

I can understand it's frustrating, but didn't you know that's the way it was going to be when you started? I guess I really don't understand why some of posters think U.S. grads and foreign grads should be considered on equal footing. They shouldn't.

I think the posters making that point are the foreign grads trying to convince themselves they're on equal footing. In life there are consequences. The consequence of dropping the ball during undergrad is you may have to go to the Caribbean and will no longer be on equal footing with American medical graduates.

 

[JeffLebowski]

I think the posters making that point are the foreign grads trying to convince themselves they're on equal footing. In life there are consequences. The consequence of dropping the ball during undergrad is you may have to go to the Caribbean and will no longer be on equal footing with American medical graduates.

Agreed. And I would go a step further to say that the priority consideration for American grads is relatively legitimate.

 

[blz]

I want to see this SGU matchlist. I highly doubt it is equivalent. In terms of the distribution of specialties, it might be closer but most of the caribbean grads I know mostly match into podunk community programs or the rare kid will get ortho in mississippi or something.

Also, doesn't SGU take in an enormous class size and weed out a lot of kids? Factor that in to your mcat to usmle correlation.

 

[Law2Doc]

Also, doesn't SGU take in an enormous class size and weed out a lot of kids? Factor that in to your mcat to usmle correlation.

I don't want to talk about any specific school, and I don't know if this applies to SGU, but some of the offshore places have enormous attrition, some hold people back and make people pass an internal exam before they allow them to sit for Step 1, and play other such "games" to ensure that the graduating class that makes it onto the match list is the best of their school, and is a mere fraction which bears no resemblance to those who started together 4 years ago. If you look at the total attendance at some of those schools it is a lot larger than 4 times the graduating class. Meaning a lot of people get "stuck" somewhere along the way. Some of that is due to attrition -- starting with big classes and ending with small ones. But a lot is also due to the fact that folks get a couple of years into it but don't get to take the Steps, they get caught in limbo land. Thus a school can advertise great Step scores and better than average (for Caribbean) matches because they cherry pick who they let through. Which I guess is great for the students who make it through, but maybe not so great for the folks who pay a ton of money and get nothing to show for it.

 

[GMDMD]

Agreed. And I would go a step further to say that the priority consideration for American grads is relatively legitimate.

Agreed. Not getting into a US school is a black mark on your record. I had glaring holes in my med school app as a non-trad and as a result I go to a middle tier med school. Do I expect to get the same consideration as a guy with equal scores who went to a Harvard/Stanford/UCSF? Of course not. That person has demonstrated consistency in their excellence and was competing to stand out amidst a higher caliber of students.

 

[nowai]

Agreed. Not getting into a US school is a black mark on your record. I had glaring holes in my med school app as a non-trad and as a result I go to a middle tier med school. Do I expect to get the same consideration as a guy with equal scores who went to a Harvard/Stanford/UCSF? Of course not. That person has demonstrated consistency in their excellence and was competing to stand out amidst a higher caliber of students.

While I agree with you, to play the devil's advocate, it can be argued that since the USMLE is standardized, if you and a Harvard student get similar scores, you should get similiar "consideration" based upon your USMLE performance. Now once you factor in other things, it's likely the Harvard student has you trumped but based just on USMLE, I'd think you two should be comparable.

The reason this doesn't apply to IMGs is because IMGs could have spent something like a year studying to achieve the scores they did. The end results aren't very comparable to what US students achieve after 3-6 wks of studying.

 

[GMDMD]

While I agree with you, to play the devil's advocate, it can be argued that since the USMLE is standardized, if you and a Harvard student get similar scores, you should get similiar "consideration" based upon your USMLE performance. Now once you factor in other things, it's likely the Harvard student has you trumped but based just on USMLE, I'd think you two should be comparable.

The reason this doesn't apply to IMGs is because IMGs could have spent something like a year studying to achieve the scores they did. The end results aren't very comparable to what US students achieve after 3-6 wks of studying.

I understand your point. But if I had to choose between 2 applicants with equal USMLE scores (knowing NOTHING else) and one went to Harvard and one went to my school, ten times out of ten I will choose the Harvard Med grad. Why? Because the Harvard med student is competing against other med students of generally higher caliber. Because I know it's probably much harder to stand out and to be in the top 25% of your class at Harvard than it is at my school, and it's not even close.

Step1 is just a multiple-choice test. Any school can gear you towards acing that thing, but that's the difference between a trade school and a world class university. Outside of standardized tests you learn the most when you surround yourself by the best. When you learn how they learn, and how they think. I know I definitely learn the most when I discuss pathophysiology and other concepts with the kids in the top10% of my class... most of whom could not get into Harvard Med.

 

[Law2Doc]

While I agree with you, to play the devil's advocate, it can be argued that since the USMLE is standardized, if you and a Harvard student get similar scores, you should get similiar "consideration" based upon your USMLE performance. Now once you factor in other things, it's likely the Harvard student has you trumped but based just on USMLE, I'd think you two should be comparable.

Well no residency looks exclusively at the USMLE. It is a big part, but not meant to be the end all be all. If NBME gets their wish, it will be taken out of the loop altogether in the next 4-5 years. Currently, when you fill out ERAS, the USMLE is but one of many things you are expected to provide, and most residencies will consider everything, even if they weight some things more heavily than others. So no, you really can't draw the conclusion that two people who get the same USMLE score are "equal", any more than two folks with the same MCAT were "equal" when applying to med school. Higher helps, but there will be other things factored into the equation. Always. This is not an aptitude test, nor is it a test on what is necessarily important to a particular residency. It is a factor to consider, it is objective/standardized, and it is the best we got right now. But for the same reason med schools don't advertise Step 1 scores (it would tie their hands from trying things that the schools feel might make people "better doctors" rather than simply teaching to the boards), the residencies aren't myopic in looking exclusively at scores to the exclusion of other things (clinical year grades, research, LORs/connections, and yes FMG status). It's all one package -- there is no notion that the only factor that matters at the end is that one score.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

I understand your point. But if I had to choose between 2 applicants with equal USMLE scores (knowing NOTHING else) and one went to Harvard and one went to my school, ten times out of ten I will choose the Harvard Med grad. Why? Because the Harvard med student is competing against other med students of generally higher caliber. Because I know it's probably much harder to stand out and to be in the top 25% of your class at Harvard than it is at my school, and it's not even close.

Like L2D said school reputation should be counted but it's going to be about the whole package. In addition to school, step I and grades they'll be looking at things like research and perhaps most important of all how the candidate interviews.

 

[nowai]

Well no residency looks exclusively at the USMLE. It is a big part, but not meant to be the end all be all. If NBME gets their wish, it will be taken out of the loop altogether in the next 4-5 years. Currently, when you fill out ERAS, the USMLE is but one of many things you are expected to provide, and most residencies will consider everything, even if they weight some things more heavily than others. So no, you really can't draw the conclusion that two people who get the same USMLE score are "equal", any more than two folks with the same MCAT were "equal" when applying to med school. Higher helps, but there will be other things factored into the equation. Always. This is not an aptitude test, nor is it a test on what is necessarily important to a particular residency. It is a factor to consider, it is objective/standardized, and it is the best we got right now. But for the same reason med schools don't advertise Step 1 scores (it would tie their hands from trying things that the schools feel might make people "better doctors" rather than simply teaching to the boards), the residencies aren't myopic in looking exclusively at scores to the exclusion of other things (clinical year grades, research, LORs/connections, and yes FMG status). It's all one package -- there is no notion that the only factor that matters at the end is that one score.

Ya, don't get me wrong, I agree 100% with what you're saying. I was just saying that "based upon USMLE" performance they would be equal, but when you "factor in other things," the Harvard student comes out on top.

 

[JeffLebowski]

Ya, don't get me wrong, I agree 100% with what you're saying. I was just saying that "based upon USMLE" performance they would be equal, but when you "factor in other things," the Harvard student comes out on top.

You're right in one sense - that the USMLE is a way for a foreign grad to prove "hey, in this big, important standardized assessment of medical knowledge, I performed as well as a U.S. grad", and when it comes to the part of medical training that the USMLE represents, a 240 is a 240 whether you're FMG or AMG. I can see the confusion and frustration as well, considering how much importance everyone (PD's & applicants alike) puts on USMLE scores.

That said, it would be foolhardy to say that USMLE score is a big enough credential to blind PD's to factors such as school caliber, graduate track-record (if they've never taken a SGU/other foreign grad, they don't have personal knowledge of the caliber of their students), grades, and clinical experience.