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ANyone out there aware of a site that posts the different step 1 averages at different schools? or even avg. step 1 scores for first year docs in various residency programs?
Is it really appropriate to then turn around and come to the US, without giving anything back to that country? Don't those people need medical care too?
And yes, there are areas of the country that are underserved and less desirable residencies that need to be filled. But with the increasing number of medical schools and increasing class sizes, we will hopefully end up with the ability to supply enough students to fill our own residency classes. And there will be room in our medical schools for more qualified applicants who would have otherwise ended up in at a school outside of the US.
This was my initial post......I find it rather comical how many of you (not all) are so quick to spit out your opinions as to what program(s) I have the potential to make it into or even if I'll match at all. Take the time to read what this thread was supposed to be about - I simply asked if anyone had a website that listed info regarding various residency programs and what their avg. step 1 score representation was. I never asked for your pinhead opinions....this was not a "what are my chances" post. Before you carry out your urge to spue out your daily load of crap at me (I know its hard to hold it in since you all scored a 260+), just understand that your opinions about what I, or other Caribbean graduates can achieve, is the equivalent to a drunken confabulation of words to me. I'm sorry, but your opinions don't count.
Just trying (simply out of curiosity) to see how my step 1 score stacks up against different U.S. schools, since I go to SGU and scored rather lowly on the mcat (24) and managed to pull out a 239 on the step 1.... for those of us who didn't get into a U.S. school it was quite frustrating always being told how the mcat correlates with step 1 performance....
Dude you were the one who brought up that you were asking because you wanted to stack up yourself against U.S. MD applicants. Don't make it out like all of a sudden we started attacking you, you can't blame people for responding to that.
...and incidentally, no one is attacking you. We've stated some valid opinions and prevalent perspectives on the issue. We've stated being foreign trained, nor caribbean grad, is not necessarily an indicator of being a sub-par physician. It sounds like you really want to take the opinions stated on this thread personally, however.
...but it touched a nerve when I thought you were implying that the US is the only place in the world with bright forward-thinking doctors and everyone else is living in a cave or something. Obviously I misread your comment....
I think there's a lot of displaced anger against Caribbean graduates b/c people think they took the easy way out as far as gaining acceptance to a medical school. Everything else... not so easy.
I don't think that US folks coming from offshore schools are going to have great luck matching into the top programs
US trained physicians should fill US healthcare needs, and we shouldn't import doctors.
I don't think I was reading into anything.. this is the comment I was referring to.
As far as hostility against Caribbean graduates, I agree you were not being hostile. I was speaking generally and it was not directed against you. I should have made that more clear. Anyhow, the "displaced anger" comment is just my opinion based on people I've spoken with as well as some of the threads I've seen on this forum. I know that everyone does not feel this way.
As far as competitive residencies, I agree that IMG's have to work harder and make their applications as complete as possible in order to land interviews that the AMG's are also going after. After all, the US should give their own graduates with good applications preference because they are from their own country. I wouldn't expect them not to. I think that's completely fair and I don't think I have stated anything otherwise.
BillyRubinstein... congratulations on your score! It sounds like you're on the right track and I hope you are able to continue making high achievements so you can get the residency of your choice. Like I've suggested before, take a look at the NRMP data so you can get a good idea of what kinds of things will make you competitive for certain programs. The data is all on this website: http://www.nrmp.org/data/index.html It looks like doing research and having publications is the way to go. Goodluck.
why? only TOP programs are able to "make" good doctors?
why? US healthcare doesn't import doctors. Foreign grads go thru the same steps of licensure as AMGs.
(...you mean why aren't IMGs made to do medschool over again - like dental do now?)
I know there are some people out there who clump all Caribbean schools together - WRONG....try not to do it - it's quite annoying for a school like SGU to be anchored down by the random "pop-up" caribbean schools that seem to be founded on a daily basis.....
Why do you get so upset when people distinguish between US and carribean schools but you think it's okay to distinguish between SGU and lower tier caribbean schools? It seems elitist and unfair to look down upon these other schools which are no doubt filled with qualified applicants who simply didn't have the mcat/grades to make SGU.
oh, you mean the chip on your shoulder?Just exactly what is your definition of FOREIGN-TRAINED and what is your hang up about doctors that are trained in other countries? There is an exam out there - its called the UNITED STATES (yes UNITED STATES OF AMERICAN THAT IS) medical licensing exam....maybe I should spell this out for you a bit more......ok....pay attention now - this exam tests the knowledge of medical students who are wishing to become licensed to practice medicine in......ok...now you fill in the blank - Yes...you are correct - the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.......now please feel free to answer, but what the f**k is the purpose of having an exam that holds everyone to the same standards, if people are going to be blinded by what school we attended, which ultimately boils down to how we did on our mcat (an exam which assesses absolutely no medical knowledge)......what exacly is the purpose of the USMLE then???
Here is where you should really take a few notes - us FOREIGN-TRAINED Caribbean students, are actually trained in the same country as your are! You must be thinkinking, "OMG, this can't be possible, they are supposed to trained in a foreign country!" Well here's a question for you - from your experience as a medical student, how much TRAINING (no, not reading textbooks) did you receive in your first two years of basic science study, as opposed to what you have or will be receiving as a clinical student during your last two years. At SGU and most other Carib programs, students complete only their first 2 years in the caribbean (at Ross, it's even less). Now do the math - this leaves the last two years of school to be completed in the U.S.A, YOUR COUNTRY. Wait, maybe this makes us American-Trained students......hmmm.....doesn't really sound like hour baseless arguement of foreign-trained doctors is really all too accurate. Last time I checked, my school and many of the other top Caribbean programs pattern their academic programs after U.S. medical schools and actually follow the same set of guidelines set forth by the LCME, though we are not technically accredited by them. But honestly, in the end, what should matter is the kind of doctors these schools are producing, not what kind students they accept. SGU produces doctors with brains, not egos.....you might wanna have that checked out.
hahahhaWhy do you get so upset when people distinguish between US and carribean schools but you think it's okay to distinguish between SGU and lower tier caribbean schools? It seems elitist and unfair to look down upon these other schools which are no doubt filled with qualified applicants who simply didn't have the mcat/grades to make SGU.
I personally think it would be extremely unfortunate not to have residency slots for non-US physicians. The advancement of medical science is based on new research and ideas and it would be a great disservice to take on an isolationist approach like other nations. That's what makes the US unique, the land of opportunity not only allows opportunities for it's citizens but also for educated professionals from other countries that can provide their knowledge/services/research to make this country a better place and contribute to medical science globally. Why would we want to keep these people out? Do you know how difficult it is to obtain citizenship in this country? It's pretty difficult. However, a lot of US hospitals sponsor visa's for doctors to do residency here. It's not a bad idea, in my opinion, to attract intelligent professionals to this country. There's a reason why most people think the US is the best place to live in. After all, this is a country of immigrants.
Just think of how the space race or even the invention of the atomic bomb would have turned out if it were not for the collaborative efforts of American scientists and foreign scientists. It's not a good idea to "box them out"... think globally.
Maybe it's a pet peeve of mine, but I find it exceptionally annoying when someone makes comments regarding something they know nothing about - "Is it really appropriate to then turn around and come to the US, without giving anything back to that country?"......yea, it's way off topic from the initial posting, so I'm sorry to add to this rather silly drama that we all created, but it's really sad that you make this rhetorical statement. You honestly have NO IDEA what SGU and other Caribbean have schools have given back to their country. I won't even begin listing, but the only reason Grenada is where it is today is because of the school being located on island. The graduates and students have done more volunteer work and put in more time in their two years in Grenada,to helping that country develop, than you or any other american student would do in a lifetime. Are you aware that graduates travel to Grenada yearly and volunteer their time as surgeons to perform procedures on the native people that can't afford to travel to the U.S.? Don't make me continue, it'll go on for a while.
Are the Caribbean programs PA programs or actual physicians? I used to think they were physicians (DOs or MDs) until my friends and I were talking about it because they knew some people who were applying from the Caribbean medical schools and they were trying to match into the IM residency at my school but the program director here doesn't give interviews to Caribbean students because they aren't actually physicians but are actually PA's which are very useful, but not the same training as an actual MD or DO from the states. But I'm not sure if the residency director was meaning that they actually have a PA degree or just that a Caribbean MD or DO is the equivalent of a PA degree from the US. Can anyone clarify this?
As for the Step 1 scores, I agree that not many schools publish reliable data. I think my school floats "facts" such as: Our students score slightly above the national mean like around 55-60 %ile. Which I wouldn't be surprised if it's more like 40-45 %ile but schools probably like to fudge the facts so that they aren't below avg because really who wants to say "our school below average.
Well, it looks like for me this fun little drama will be coming to an end, as I'm starting my surgery rotation. ...
When I read statements by someone like Law2Doc posting that we are all unregulated and unaccredited in an attempt to imply we are not worthy of joining forces with American students, it is just annoying.
Law2Doc - You initially made it sound like U.S. students get the "cream of the crop" matches, and we are left for the scraps...this is just not true - go check the last many years of our match list on our website, and you will see otherwise. Does our entire class stack up against the avg. American class - Yes it actually does. 99% of our grads to get into a residency, albeit a large chunk go into internal med, but more and more students are matching into very competetive fields and very good programs. An avg. class size at our school is around 300+ (way too big in my opinion and yours), but if you take the top 1/3 of our class, we're probably above the U.S. avg for the step 1 (altogether, we're about 4-5 pts. below the national avg.)
even so, if one works hard and proves themselves, there still is possibility to end up in competitive specialties such as gastro, cardio, and in good programs such as Mayo Clinic or Harvard.
Now I'm not saying that anything is wrong with your story... I just wanted everyone to hear what I heard (from my cousin's best friends' uncle).. and everyone should believe it. The source is reliable. Just sayin'
Yeah, anecdotal evidence isn't particularly probative here in EITHER direction. We all probably know one or two folks from offshore programs who did fine, one or two others who didn't do so fine. In schools with classes of "300+" what happens to one or two folks isn't really statistically significant, even if true. So it's kind of meaningless that peter knows of a caribbean trained resident at Harvard or that nbme1234 knows of a Ross student who didn't get the nod.
However I have to admit that polar bear in your story sounds quite impressive and I'm sure will make a fine anesthesiologist for the hearing impaired. I just wouldn't want to be the poor orderly who has to clean up after him.
I am not saying this happens to most IMG students. I was only repling to peter9006's statement that sometimes as an IMG your best doesn't quite cut it. As I apply for electives right now the first question the registrar asks me is "what achool I attend" and when I tell them I am an IMG, they quickly try to get me off the phone no matter what my step 1 score is. This doesn't happen with all hospitals but as an IMG it is frustrating that some of the better hospitals won't even give me chance to prove myself.
I can understand it's frustrating, but didn't you know that's the way it was going to be when you started? I guess I really don't understand why some of posters think U.S. grads and foreign grads should be considered on equal footing. They shouldn't.
I think the posters making that point are the foreign grads trying to convince themselves they're on equal footing. In life there are consequences. The consequence of dropping the ball during undergrad is you may have to go to the Caribbean and will no longer be on equal footing with American medical graduates.
Also, doesn't SGU take in an enormous class size and weed out a lot of kids? Factor that in to your mcat to usmle correlation.
Agreed. And I would go a step further to say that the priority consideration for American grads is relatively legitimate.
While I agree with you, to play the devil's advocate, it can be argued that since the USMLE is standardized, if you and a Harvard student get similar scores, you should get similiar "consideration" based upon your USMLE performance. Now once you factor in other things, it's likely the Harvard student has you trumped but based just on USMLE, I'd think you two should be comparable.Agreed. Not getting into a US school is a black mark on your record. I had glaring holes in my med school app as a non-trad and as a result I go to a middle tier med school. Do I expect to get the same consideration as a guy with equal scores who went to a Harvard/Stanford/UCSF? Of course not. That person has demonstrated consistency in their excellence and was competing to stand out amidst a higher caliber of students.
While I agree with you, to play the devil's advocate, it can be argued that since the USMLE is standardized, if you and a Harvard student get similar scores, you should get similiar "consideration" based upon your USMLE performance. Now once you factor in other things, it's likely the Harvard student has you trumped but based just on USMLE, I'd think you two should be comparable.
The reason this doesn't apply to IMGs is because IMGs could have spent something like a year studying to achieve the scores they did. The end results aren't very comparable to what US students achieve after 3-6 wks of studying.
While I agree with you, to play the devil's advocate, it can be argued that since the USMLE is standardized, if you and a Harvard student get similar scores, you should get similiar "consideration" based upon your USMLE performance. Now once you factor in other things, it's likely the Harvard student has you trumped but based just on USMLE, I'd think you two should be comparable.
Like L2D said school reputation should be counted but it's going to be about the whole package. In addition to school, step I and grades they'll be looking at things like research and perhaps most important of all how the candidate interviews.I understand your point. But if I had to choose between 2 applicants with equal USMLE scores (knowing NOTHING else) and one went to Harvard and one went to my school, ten times out of ten I will choose the Harvard Med grad. Why? Because the Harvard med student is competing against other med students of generally higher caliber. Because I know it's probably much harder to stand out and to be in the top 25% of your class at Harvard than it is at my school, and it's not even close.
Ya, don't get me wrong, I agree 100% with what you're saying. I was just saying that "based upon USMLE" performance they would be equal, but when you "factor in other things," the Harvard student comes out on top.Well no residency looks exclusively at the USMLE. It is a big part, but not meant to be the end all be all. If NBME gets their wish, it will be taken out of the loop altogether in the next 4-5 years. Currently, when you fill out ERAS, the USMLE is but one of many things you are expected to provide, and most residencies will consider everything, even if they weight some things more heavily than others. So no, you really can't draw the conclusion that two people who get the same USMLE score are "equal", any more than two folks with the same MCAT were "equal" when applying to med school. Higher helps, but there will be other things factored into the equation. Always. This is not an aptitude test, nor is it a test on what is necessarily important to a particular residency. It is a factor to consider, it is objective/standardized, and it is the best we got right now. But for the same reason med schools don't advertise Step 1 scores (it would tie their hands from trying things that the schools feel might make people "better doctors" rather than simply teaching to the boards), the residencies aren't myopic in looking exclusively at scores to the exclusion of other things (clinical year grades, research, LORs/connections, and yes FMG status). It's all one package -- there is no notion that the only factor that matters at the end is that one score.
Ya, don't get me wrong, I agree 100% with what you're saying. I was just saying that "based upon USMLE" performance they would be equal, but when you "factor in other things," the Harvard student comes out on top.