STEP and COMLEX

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Lalalandbrain2

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The DO school I will be attending this upcoming year requires COMPLEX. However, people here have recommended to take STEP and COMPLEX. Does that mean you take it all the exams for STEP? Like STEP 2 or is it just STEP 1?

Thanks!
 
The DO school I will be attending this upcoming year requires COMPLEX. However, people here have recommended to take STEP and COMPLEX. Does that mean you take it all the exams for STEP? Like STEP 2 or is it just STEP 1?

Thanks!
Haha all jokes aside, it is definitely recommended for all DO students to take both COMLEX and USMLE Step 1. However, if a student ends up performing subpar in their preclinical years and isn't passing their practice USMLE Step 1 exams (called NBMEs), it would behoove them to forgo Step 1 and take only COMLEX. It would be better for them to focus on COMLEX, pass it and hopefully do well enough to be competitive for traditionally AOA (old DO programs that became ACGME after the "merger") residencies.

Basically, taking both COMLEX and USMLE will open the most doors for residencies, if you do well. If you risk failing/not doing well on USMLE, don't take it.
 
The DO school I will be attending this upcoming year requires COMPLEX. However, people here have recommended to take STEP and COMPLEX. Does that mean you take it all the exams for STEP? Like STEP 2 or is it just STEP 1?

Thanks!

Its a requirement to take the COMLEX for all DO schools in the country. It is recommended to take the USMLE to keep MD residency options open.

You need to take all three levels of the COMLEX to become a DO. Just like how MDs have to take all three steps of the USMLE.
 
If you do well in your coursework, take both COMLEX I and Step I.

After that, you should be OK with COMLEX II. I never hear anything from my students in their clinical years about Step II. I don't know if they're just not telling us, or they simply don't take it.

Oddly, PDs in the more competitive specialties will not accept COMLEX I, but are more willing to accept COMLEX II!

If you are a weak student, stick with COMLEX I, and get used to being in Primary Care or the DO-freind specialties.

The DO school I will be attending this upcoming year requires COMPLEX. However, people here have recommended to take STEP and COMPLEX. Does that mean you take it all the exams for STEP? Like STEP 2 or is it just STEP 1?

Thanks!
 
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My understanding is that if you want to do an MD residency in a semi/more competitive field, you take USMLE Step 1 & Step 2 CK in addition to the 4 COMLEX exams. There is no reason to take Step 2 CS or Step 3.
 
The COMLEX (officially COMLEX-USA) exam series are the medical licensing exams in order for licensure of DOs in all fifty states. There are 4 exams (Level 1, 2 CE, 2 PE, and 3) that mirror the USMLE series (Step 1, 2 CK, 2 CS, and 3) for MDs.

It is a requirement of all DO students to pass Level 1, 2 CE and 2 PE prior to graduation from a COM (you can't graduate as a DO without doing so). You must then complete Level 3 after graduating (usually during or after intern year) in order to be licensed in all 50 states.

In general, DOs are recommended to complete both the COMLEX exams, as well as the USMLE Step 1 and usually Step 2 CK exams, provided they are expected to do well on both, in order to maintain competitiveness for ACGME residencies. Taking the USMLE allows an apples to apples comparison for PDs between DO and MD applicants.

There are a handful of ACGME residency and fellowship programs that require DOs to take the entire Step series, including 2 CS and 3, but these are few and far between and are decidedly not DO friendly anyway. In order to take Step 3, you must complete all prior exams, and to give you an idea of how common that is only ~60 DOs per year (out of the 6000/yr or so) take Step 2 CS and only ~20 take Step 3. Realistically this will not affect >99% of DOs, so there's usually no point in taking the 2 CS or 3 exams.
 
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The COMLEX (officially COMLEX-USA) exam series are the medical licensing exams in order for licensure of DOs in all fifty states. There are 4 exams (Level 1, 2 CE, 2 PE, and 3) that mirror the USMLE series (Step 1, 2 CK, 2 CS, and 3) for MDs.

It is a requirement of all DO students to pass Level 1, 2 CE and 2 PE prior to graduation from a COM (you can't graduate as a DO without doing so). You must then complete Level 3 after graduating (usually during or after intern year) in order to be licensed in all 50 states.

In general, DOs are recommended to complete both the COMLEX exams, as well as the USMLE Step 1 and usually Step 2 CK exams, provided they are expected to do well on both, in order to maintain competitiveness for ACGME residencies. Taking the USMLE allows an apples to apples comparison for PDs between DO and MD applicants.

There are a handful of ACGME residency and fellowship programs that require DOs to take the entire Step series, including 2 CS and 3, but these are few and far between and are decidedly not DO friendly anyway. In order to take Step 3, you must complete all prior exams, and to give you an idea of how common that is only 60 DOs per year (out the 6000/yr or so) take Step 2 CS and only 20 take Step 3. Realistically this will not affect >99% of DOs, so there's usually no point in talking the 2 CS or 3 exams.

Thank you for this! Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly... when people say "take usmle!", that only applies to Step 1 and Step 2 CK.. and not Step 2 CS and Step 3?
 
Thank you for this! Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly... when people say "take usmle!", that only applies to Step 1 and Step 2 CK.. and not Step 2 CS and Step 3?

It absolutely applies to Step 1, for most people it also applies to Step 2 CK. I've never heard anyone actually suggest taking 2 CS or 3. It's not necessary and costs a lot more money.
 
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It absolutely applies to Step 1, for most people it also applies to Step 2 CK. I've never heard actually suggest taking 2 CS or 3. It's not necessary and costs a lot more money.
Ugh I really hope I do well on Step 1 so I don't have to take all of boards twice. That's really the only thing I have against being a DO.
 
Even if you do well on Step 1 you should also take CK.
Meh.

How's that whole "PDs taking the COMLEX seriously because of the merger" thing working out? Do we have any data to support that yet? Hell, I'll even take secondhand anecdotes? Somebody please feed me false hope.
 
What happens if you beast on the USMLE Step 1 with a 250+ score but above average on the COMPLEX like 560-590 bc you don't care about OMM?
 
If you score consistently above 85+ on your preclinical classes, it would be wise to take both the USMLE and COMLEX tests. Once the merger happens, the standard of gold will be the USMLE. DO schools will start to meet the standards of MDs, not the other way around as evident by small changes in the admission and clinical education for DO schools right now.
 
What happens if you beast on the USMLE Step 1 with a 250+ score but above average on the COMPLEX like 560-590 bc you don't care about OMM?
bro 590 is like 90th %tile on COMLEX, you'll be aite
 
What happens if you beast on the USMLE Step 1 with a 250+ score but above average on the COMPLEX like 560-590 bc you don't care about OMM?

People will only care about your comlex score if you apply to osteopathic programs, or if you apply to programs that routinely take people that didn't take the USMLE.

bro 590 is like 90th %tile on COMLEX, you'll be aite

It's 81st percentile. http://www.nbome.org/CBT_Score_Conv/

Meh.

How's that whole "PDs taking the COMLEX seriously because of the merger" thing working out? Do we have any data to support that yet? Hell, I'll even take secondhand anecdotes? Somebody please feed me false hope.

Their interest in the comlex is increasing at about the same rate as their interest in cranial.
 
Its a requirement to take the COMLEX for all DO schools in the country. It is recommended to take the USMLE to keep MD residency options open.

You need to take all three levels of the COMLEX to become a DO. Just like how MDs have to take all three steps of the USMLE.

You need level 1 and 2 to become a DO.

You need level 3 to be a legally licensed DO.
 
Meh.

How's that whole "PDs taking the COMLEX seriously because of the merger" thing working out? Do we have any data to support that yet? Hell, I'll even take secondhand anecdotes? Somebody please feed me false hope.

Not really any different. USMLE will always be the standard at ACGME programs. The vast majority of applicants are MDs (including IMGs), so they'll all have USMLE scores. Seriously, there are like 35,000 applicants. Even after 2020 DOs will make up only about 15%-20% of applicants to ACGME programs. There's no real motivation for the majority of PDs to learn how to interpret the COMLEX.

It also doesn't help that every conversion formula that comes out significantly devalues the COMLEX and correlates it with a lower step score than virtually everyone's experiences. My "conversion" was lower than my actual USMLE score by 10-15 points, which is huge and consistent with the experiences of most people I've talked to.

What happens if you beast on the USMLE Step 1 with a 250+ score but above average on the COMPLEX like 560-590 bc you don't care about OMM?

For one, you should care about OMM for the COMLEX (seriously its not hard to review with Savarese a couple times) because its a huge part of the COMLEX. That said, a 560-590 is a perfectly fine score unless you are planning to apply to some ultra competitive AOA surgical subspecialties.

All ACGME programs will ignore the COMLEX score provided you passed, and maybe got above average. The majority will only care that you passed the COMLEX and what your USMLE score is.

Also to be clear, as of right now, it is impossible to release your USMLE report to AOA programs on ERAS. If you're planning to apply straight AOA, definitely spend more time on the COMLEX (although if you had a 250+ on the USMLE score, I don't know why you would do that because there are tons more ACGME programs in every specialty except maybe NMM). This will become less and less of an issue though as we progress through the SAS transition.
 
What happens if you take both COMLEX I-III and Step I-III? Are you a DO/MD? Is that how that works?
 
Okay just making sure.

So there's really no benefit in taking the Step exams (if you are a DO student) past Step 2?

Nope.

I know one person who is planning to so she can say she passed all the same exams as an MD. But unless you really like spending money on exams, there's not really a benefit to us taking Step 2 CS or Step 3.
 
If you do well in your coursework, take both COMLEX I and Step I.

After that, you should be OK with COMLEX II. I never hear anything from my students in their clinical years about Step II. I don't know if they're just not telling us, or they simply don't take it.

Oddly, PDs in the more competitive specialties will not accept COMLEX I, but are more willing to accept COMLEX II!

If you are a weak student, stick with COMLEX I, and get used to being in Primary Care or the DO-freind specialties.

What would you consider subpar? My gpa is around a 3.3-3.4. I mostly make mid-Bs on our tests. Our averages are usually around a 78-79. I only ask because it's hard to gauge how well I'm doing compared to not only my peers but to other schools
 
What would you consider subpar? My gpa is around a 3.3-3.4. I mostly make mid-Bs on our tests. Our averages are usually around a 78-79. I only ask because it's hard to gauge how well I'm doing compared to not only my peers but to other schools

Forget all that. Take an NBME (for Step 1 obviously). Plan to take the USMLE if you think it's reasonable to get a respectable score on the exam. At this point in 2nd year, board studying should already be kind of in swing with Pathoma and FA, so it would be worth taking it now.
 
Forget all that. Take an NBME (for Step 1 obviously). Plan to take the USMLE if you think it's reasonable to get a respectable score on the exam. At this point in 2nd year, board studying should already be kind of in swing with Pathoma and FA, so it would be worth taking it now.
Well I'm a first year lol
Our school is systems based, so I'm looking into boards a little sooner
 
If you were my student, I would advise that you are good to go for both COMLEX and USMLE.


What would you consider subpar? My gpa is around a 3.3-3.4. I mostly make mid-Bs on our tests. Our averages are usually around a 78-79. I only ask because it's hard to gauge how well I'm doing compared to not only my peers but to other schools
 
Well I'm a first year lol
Our school is systems based, so I'm looking into boards a little sooner

If you are doing fine in classes (i.e. not struggling to pass) then plan to take both. Either way take an NBME next year and it should give you an idea.

As of right now, you really don't need to make this decision right now. The resources you're going to use are the same, Uworld, FA, and Pathoma. The only difference is that you'll add Savarese for the COMLEX and getting used to the COMLEX style questions leading up to the exam.
 
The USMLE and the COMLEX are two totally different exams that, really, have 2 totally different approaches to pathology, microbiology, physiology, and pharmacology. The students that do well on both are usually the students that know these two differences and have a strong enough grasp on pathology to take both exams. The USMLE is a BEAST! Most DO schools do not prepare students to think and approach clinical situations and pathology the way the USMLE tests students on.The content for both exams is similar but testing methodologies and applications are totally different. These skills are not something you can just "cram" during your dedicated study time. They are something you aim to improve during your second year in med school (the traditional pathology year). Outside of the 2 or 3 DO schools that require the USMLE, most COMs have an average of about 50% of their current classes taking the USMLE. It obviously differs by school but my educated guess, nationally, is between 45-50%. Think about the percentage of these students that actually pass.
In 3-4 years, matching into anything outside of primary care will likely require Step I and, it's unfortunate, but 50-60% of DO graduates who have not passed Step I will be ineligible for these programs. It is my personal belief that as the number of quality matriculants continue to decrease (due to increase in both MD and DO seats nationwide), we will see this number increase. There are already a handful of DO schools whose stats for the last admission cycle (2015-2016) included MCAT averages that were in the 50th percentile. Do you think these hundreds of students will magically become physiology and science geniuses to take the USMLE in 20-24 months?
I know it's "nice" and "comforting" to be told, "yes, take the USMLE if you're doing okay in your classes and you will be compared equally as your MD counterparts, etc. etc." but I don't think many of you realize just how complex and multi-factorial this issue is. It's not a simple "Yes" "No" situation. It's not a one-size-fits-all model and giving pre-meds this false sense of security may not be beneficial because they will be faced with a totally different reality in 20 months when all they care about is passing the COMLEX let alone adding a totally different board exam that they've been minimally exposed to.
 
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The USMLE and the COMLEX are two totally different exams that, really, have 2 totally different approaches to pathology, microbiology, physiology, and pharmacology. The students that do well on both are usually the students that know these two differences and have a strong enough grasp on pathology to take both exams. The USMLE is a BEAST! Most DO schools do not prepare students to think and approach clinical situations and pathology the way the USMLE tests students on.The content for both exams is similar but testing methodologies and applications are totally different. These skills are not something you can just "cram" during your dedicated study time. They are something you aim to improve during your second year in med school (the traditional pathology year). Outside of the 2 or 3 DO schools that require the USMLE, most COMs have an average of about 50% of their current classes taking the USMLE. It obviously differs by school but my educated guess, nationally, is between 45-50%. Think about the percentage of these students that actually pass.
In 3-4 years, matching into anything outside of primary care will likely require Step I and, it's unfortunate, but 50-60% of DO graduates who have not passed Step I will be ineligible for these programs. It is my personal belief that as the number of quality matriculants continue to decrease (due to increase in both MD and DO seats nationwide), we will see this number increase. There are already a handful of DO schools whose stats for the last admission cycle (2015-2016) included MCAT averages that were in the 50th percentile. Do you think these hundreds of students will magically become physiology and science geniuses to take the USMLE in 20-24 months?
I know it's "nice" and "comforting" to be told, "yes, take the USMLE if you're doing okay in your classes and you will be compared equally as your MD counterparts, etc. etc." but I don't think many of you realize just how complex and multi-factorial this issue is. It's not a simple "Yes" "No" situation. It's not a one-size-fits-all model and giving pre-meds this false sense of security may not be beneficial because they will be faced with a totally different reality in 20 months when all they care about is passing the COMLEX let alone adding a totally different board exam that they've been minimally exposed to.
You are one knowledgeable first year. Keep on keepin' on.
 
They aren't nearly as different as IP makes them sound. That difference is even less pronounced for Step 2.

A lot of the knowledge is identical. They may be different exams where you have to modify your approach to the questions (primarily because they are different stylistically), but its not really different like you need to learn how to "think" about and "approach clinical situations and pathology differently". I got to be honest, when I read that post, I had to take a step back and wonder if IP had actually taken both.

You study for them the same way. Of course you learn the material, and of course you study pathology hard during 2nd year to know it, but there isn't some hidden magic to the USMLE. You either know and understand the material or you don't. The COMLEX is slightly easier in terms of how they ask questions, but the content is unpredictable and exactly what they are asking isn't nearly as clear. You don't have to approach building your knowledge base any differently. The gold standard for both for actually learning the material is still UWorld (for content in the explanations), FA, and Pathoma. Feel free to supplement however you wish, but that's still what you need.

Also, we don't need to speculate on how many DOs take the Steps.

In the 2013-2014 year there were 6636 DO matriculants (http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/AppEnrollGrad2012-2017.pdf?sfvrsn=24), and in 2015 there were 3222 DOs that took the USMLE Step 1 with a pass rate of 93% (compared to 94% for US MDs that year). This info can be found here: http://www.usmle.org/performance-data/default.aspx#2015_step-1. That's 48.6% of all DO first year matriculants. Keep in mind though, that this doesn't take into account the DOs lost to attrition, so the real percentage of eligible DO test takers that take the USMLE is likely higher (probably more like 50-55%).

Keep in mind also that many DO schools, mine included, actively dissuade their students from taking the USMLE. At my school, they basically scared them off or told my classmates it wasn't necessary by frequently quoting that "70% of ACGME PDs accept the COMLEX" stat. I remember in 2nd year many people not taking it because they were convinced of that and because they didn't want to shell out another $600 for an extra exam. The majority of people regret not taking it, not the other way around.

Also, IP kind of glossed over my advice. I said if you're doing well, plan to take it. If you then take an NBME and you're well below passing, then forget it and focus on the COMLEX. If you are passing the NBME with more than 4-6 wks of dedicated study in front of you (I recommend that you take it a few mos out), chances are, you'll be able to get close to average or at least 220+ by test day. And again, you should expect to take one or two more NBMEs before the actual test, and be prepared to cancel if it looks like you won't hit that.

Also, the doom and gloom is quite overstated, but that's a discussion for another day.
 
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The DO school I will be attending this upcoming year requires COMPLEX. However, people here have recommended to take STEP and COMPLEX. Does that mean you take it all the exams for STEP? Like STEP 2 or is it just STEP 1?

Thanks!

All DO schools require COMLEX. It is what is required for you to be licensed as a DO. I would suggest you take both USMLE and COMLEX Step 1 and Step 2. It can't hurt you unless you don't do well on the exam. So study for both and take some NBMEs to see where you are projecting for the USMLE. If you aren't passing or doing as well as you would like then maybe drop out of the USMLE. But I would make it my number one goal to take both and do well on both. I took both COMLEX and USMLE for step 1 and Im glad I did. I plan on takin both for Step 2. I will not be taking the USMLE CS, I already took the COMLEX PE, I just don't think it is going to make much of a difference since it is a pass/fail exam.

It sounds like you haven't started medical school yet. In that case...... DONT WORRY ABOUT STEP 1. Be a good student and do well on your exams. This is the preparation you need in your first year.
 
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