Stethoscope as a gift...

[Mothra]

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Is a stethoscope a gift a new MS1 can appreciate? If so, which make/model is the best choice?

 

[OSUdoc08]

Is a stethoscope a gift a new MS1 can appreciate? If so, what's the best choice?

Yes.

Littman Cardiology III or Master Cardiology

 

[thackl]

I still don't havve one and would love to get it as a gift 👍

 

[OSUdoc08]

I still don't havve one and would love to get it as a gift 👍

We are required to buy all those medical supplies for our doctor bag before the second semester of med school, so we can use them in our clinical skills classes...

 

[thackl]

We are required to buy all those medical supplies for our doctor bag before the second semester of med school, so we can use them in our clinical skills classes...

I was supposed to have all that stuff last semester. Luckily, no one is checking up......

 

[azzarah]

our school gave us a free one....you might want to make sure they are not getting one for free to use in Clinical skills before you invest all that cash....

 

[Stealth Vector]

I'll be starting my first year of medical school in the fall. Some good friends of my family gave me a Littman Cardiology III stethoscope as a gift. I am very happy and glad to have gotten one as a gift. I do appreciate it greatly! 🙂

 

[Mothra]

So I guess I'm going to buy a stethoscope for my son, who is entering med school this fall. I'm told that it's a good idea to have it engraved. So - a question for the MSx folks out there... do you/would you have "Dr." and/or "MD" included with your name, even though you're not a doctor yet? [If I had to guess, I'd think that would be too cheeky/a violation of protocol - but if that's what's done, then...]

 

[medic170]

Is a stethoscope a gift a new MS1 can appreciate? If so, which make/model is the best choice?

Littmann Cardiolgy III. I have used one as a medic for 6 years, and I can hear lung sounds at 70 mph on the highway even. Its a very good piece of equipments, runs about $200 I think

 

[medic170]

do you/would you have "Dr." and/or "MD" included with your name, even though you're not a doctor yet? [If I had to guess, I'd think that would be too cheeky/a violation of protocol - but if that's what's done, then...]

No, don't include that. If you are having it engraved, just put his name on it. It would be inappropriate to put an unearned degree on there. Buy him a newer and better one when her graduates and engrave it with the M.D. then


P.S. I like your definition of Liberalism.

 

[Mothra]

No, don't include that. If you are having it engraved, just put his name on it. It would be inappropriate to put an unearned degree on there. Buy him a newer and better one when her graduates and engrave it with the M.D. then .

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

P.S. I like your definition of Liberalism.

Thanks. It's a public service to remind all of us of its purely emotionalistic underpinnings. I mean - all of us are conservatives, when it comes down to it. Ever hear of an avowed liberal sending an extra $10K to the government? Tearing up an income tax refund check? The only difference is that liberals want others to pay for their socialist schemes.

 

[banana k]

careful, mothra, before we idealistic types leap down your throat... oh wait, no here i go anyway. as SOON as i have the money to pay for it, you can BET that i will be handing that $10k to a charitable or government welfare fund! or the heck with it, an up-and-coming student with plenty of potential but no cash!

but for now, because America isn't socialist enough to fund university education in the ways that Australia, Canada and Britain do, i'm going in debt up to my eyeballs to pay for four years of med school, with a loan that my much-put-upon middle class parents have to co-sign. and if they weren't middle class, or if they couldn't co-sign becaue of the loans they've already co-signed for my sister's degree? guess i'd be screwed!

when education's not for the rich, then i'll join you in your conservative camp.

okay rant over, apologies offered for hijacking the thread.

 

[medic170]

careful, mothra, before we idealistic types leap down your throat... oh wait, no here i go anyway. as SOON as i have the money to pay for it, you can BET that i will be handing that $10k to a charitable or government welfare fund! or the heck with it, an up-and-coming student with plenty of potential but no cash!

but for now, because America isn't socialist enough to fund university education in the ways that Australia, Canada and Britain do, i'm going in debt up to my eyeballs to pay for four years of med school, with a loan that my much-put-upon middle class parents have to co-sign. and if they weren't middle class, or if they couldn't co-sign becaue of the loans they've already co-signed for my sister's degree? guess i'd be screwed!

when education's not for the rich, then i'll join you in your conservative camp.

okay rant over, apologies offered for hijacking the thread.

My parents are lower than middle class, and I never needed a cosigner for my stafford loans. You can borrow up to $186,000 through stafford, and you do NOT need a cosigner for it. I worked full time through undergrad and took out loans, never needing a cosigenr. As for me, I am happy to take the debt to become a doctor, I do not think anybody owes it to me to pay for my education. i believe in personal repsonsibility, so iam paying for it myself with loans. If the guy next to me has parents that worked to succeed and became rich, and he is getting a free ride, I say "Great, good for him, my kids will be in the same boat". I am greatful enough for my fellow Americans paying my interest on my subsidized Staffords, I certainly don't think anyone owes me an education, well, not anyone but ME. The American sysytem does nothing more than encourage personal responsibility and equal OPPORTUNITY. It does not favor the rich. I came up poor, and while I had to work harder to go to college and med school than the rich kids, I still had the equal opportunity to do it, and I did. I made my dream come true MYSELF, without stealing (taxing) money from the rest of my fellow citizens, that is what America is about, that is what I love about it, and I pray we never move any closer to dreaded socialism where the government will seal the money I make as a doctor, that I worked so hard to get to and earn, to fund someoe elses endeavours. In America, the top 10% of income earners laready float over 60% of the tax bill, I don't want it any more "fair" than that when i am among those n the top tax bracket.

 

[CallawayDoc]

my dad purchased one for me before i started school. it was a littman cardiology III, and i would highly recommend it. it's the best one, esp. for students. he had my name engraved on it, which is always good to have since 100+ others have almost the same model.

i'd stay away from the m.d. or dr. on it. some attending or resident wouldn't think too highly of that until you've earned it.

 

[Mothra]

My parents are lower than middle class, and I never needed a cosigner for my stafford loans. You can borrow up to $186,000 through stafford, and you do NOT need a cosigner for it. I worked full time through undergrad and took out loans, never needing a cosigenr. As for me, I am happy to take the debt to become a doctor, I do not think anybody owes it to me to pay for my education. i believe in personal repsonsibility, so iam paying for it myself with loans. If the guy next to me has parents that worked to succeed and became rich, and he is getting a free ride, I say "Great, good for him, my kids will be in the same boat". I am greatful enough for my fellow Americans paying my interest on my subsidized Staffords, I certainly don't think anyone owes me an education, well, not anyone but ME. The American sysytem does nothing more than encourage personal responsibility and equal OPPORTUNITY. It does not favor the rich. I came up poor, and while I had to work harder to go to college and med school than the rich kids, I still had the equal opportunity to do it, and I did. I made my dream come true MYSELF, without stealing (taxing) money from the rest of my fellow citizens, that is what America is about, that is what I love about it, and I pray we never move any closer to dreaded socialism where the government will seal the money I make as a doctor, that I worked so hard to get to and earn, to fund someoe elses endeavours. In America, the top 10% of income earners laready float over 60% of the tax bill, I don't want it any more "fair" than that when i am among those n the top tax bracket.

I couldn't have said it any better, medic170, except to say that the rich and powerful will always have advantages and privileges, no matter what system is in play - as it has always been throughout human history (even under socialism and communism). I suspect the rich and powerful will always be privileged. 😱

 

[Mothra]

careful, mothra, before we idealistic types leap down your throat... oh wait, no here i go anyway. as SOON as i have the money to pay for it, you can BET that i will be handing that $10k to a charitable or government welfare fund! or the heck with it, an up-and-coming student with plenty of potential but no cash!

but for now, because America isn't socialist enough to fund university education in the ways that Australia, Canada and Britain do, i'm going in debt up to my eyeballs to pay for four years of med school, with a loan that my much-put-upon middle class parents have to co-sign. and if they weren't middle class, or if they couldn't co-sign becaue of the loans they've already co-signed for my sister's degree? guess i'd be screwed!

when education's not for the rich, then i'll join you in your conservative camp.

okay rant over, apologies offered for hijacking the thread.

(Yes, sports fans, I believe this would fall into the hysterical category. And doesn't it sound like he/she wants someone else to pay for his/her medical school? I think my point has been proven!)

Uh - NO, handing a $10K check to a charity isn't the same thing... since you would obviously be reaching around to pat yourself on the back. No - here's what you have to do to prove your allegiance to socialism: take that $10K check, address it to "U.S. Treasury", and mail it to the Internal Revenue Service with a letter that says the following:

"To my beloved Government:

Please use this money as you see fit, because I know that The State knows better how to use it than I ever could. I am but a well-educated serf, and I deserve nothing for my sacrifices. Please take it, and don't even bother me with the details of how it will be used, because even though federal, state, and local governments take over 50% of my income in the form of taxes of various types, I feel the need to boost government's share of the GNP to higher and higher levels, because, after all, The State is The State! Long live The State! Down with individualism, private property, capitalism, and the Bill of Rights!

P.S. If you could get rid of the capitalists, I would appreciate it... those pesky med school loans are really quite a drag on my wallet."

One last thing - when you do this, let me know, and I give you my SSN so you can write it on the check. I can use all the deductions and credits I can get. Thanks!!!

 

[medic170]

(Yes, sports fans, I believe this would fall into the hysterical category. And doesn't it sound like he/she wants someone else to pay for his/her medical school? I think my point has been proven!)

Uh - NO, handing a $10K check to a charity isn't the same thing... since you would obviously be reaching around to pat yourself on the back. No - here's what you have to do to prove your allegiance to socialism: take that $10K check, address it to "U.S. Treasury", and mail it to the Internal Revenue Service with a letter that says the following:

"To my beloved Government:

Please use this money as you see fit, because I know that The State knows better how to use it than I ever could. I am but a well-educated serf, and I deserve nothing for my sacrifices. Please take it, and don't even bother me with the details of how it will be used, because even though federal, state, and local governments take over 50% of my income in the form of taxes of various types, I feel the need to boost government's share of the GNP to higher and higher levels, because, after all, The State is The State! Long live The State! Down with individualism, private property, capitalism, and the Bill of Rights!

P.S. If you could get rid of the capitalists, I would appreciate it... those pesky med school loans are really quite a drag on my wallet."

One last thing - when you do this, let me know, and I give you my SSN so you can write it on the check. I can use all the deductions and credits I can get. Thanks!!!

Ha, I love it

 

[LVDoc]

Liberalism extends beyond economics; I think you need to stop confusing the two.

This is a silly argument anyway - maybe it should be moved to the Everyone forum.

About your son, each school has specific requirements on what they would like their students to bring. He may not even need the stethoscope until clinical rotations. Might be a wise idea for you to check this out first, and in the event that you buy it, engrave his name only, no title of MD or Dr.

 

[lotanna]

Yup, my cousin gave me one, and even though she was like I know u'll change it soon, since its a Cardiac II SE, I really did appreciate it, saved me about $70!
And I'm not changing it no time soon for a Cardiac III, this will last me at least 2 yrs.

It will make a great gift, one they'll actually use, either that or money, cause our behinds are broke! 😀

 

[Furrball]

Let buy his own. Let him pay for medical school without government loans and decline any form of compensation during residency training. Since A. Stafford loan interest is federally subsidized for the first $8000 per year and B. residency pay is paid for by Medicare -- evil liberal construct -- on the order of about $100,000 per year per resident. Oh and he shouldn't go to a state school since most states subsidize medical education -- being a good conservative he should pay his own way, just say no to welfare! He should probably avoid any program affiliated with the VA since the VA is an example of successful socialized medicine in the US. Hmm maybe he should just not go into medicine since the federal government pays for 40 % of all healthcare already and subsidizes the private health insurance industry since they do not tax healthcare benefits provided through employers as income -- ownership society?. He difinitely won't be able to do research since the vast majority of research in this country is paid for by the NIH and NSF through federal tax dollars and to accept such compensation could be argued as a form of accepting welfare.

In regards to the stethoscope:

Littman will print whatever he wants on the tubing of his stethscope or he can buy a name tag that clips onto the tubing or he can use one of the free stethsoscope tags that the pharm reps hand out. The last will probably be the best choice for him since it will be supporting the free-market economy, their coffee is often better than the hospital's too. Maybe he should buy himself the gold plated master cardiology model?

 

[medic170]

Let buy his own. Let him pay for medical school without government loans and decline any form of compensation during residency training. Since A. Stafford loan interest is federally subsidized for the first $8000 per year and B. residency pay is paid for by Medicare -- evil liberal construct -- on the order of about $100,000 per year per resident. Oh and he shouldn't go to a state school since most states subsidize medical education -- being a good conservative he should pay his own way, just say no to welfare! He should probably avoid any program affiliated with the VA since the VA is an example of successful socialized medicine in the US. Hmm maybe he should just not go into medicine since the federal government pays for 40 % of all healthcare already and subsidizes the private health insurance industry since they do not tax healthcare benefits provided through employers as income -- ownership society?. He difinitely won't be able to do research since the vast majority of research in this country is paid for by the NIH and NSF through federal tax dollars and to accept such compensation could be argued as a form of accepting welfare.

In regards to the stethoscope:

Littman will print whatever he wants on the tubing of his stethscope or he can buy a name tag that clips onto the tubing or he can use one of the free stethsoscope tags that the pharm reps hand out. The last will probably be the best choice for him since it will be supporting the free-market economy, their coffee is often better than the hospital's too. Maybe he should buy himself the gold plated master cardiology model?

Your rediculous sarcasm does nothing to further your cause, it just makes you look too ignorant to argue your point coherently

 

[Furrball]

Who's being sarcastic? You may disagree with me but you haven't even started school yet class of 2009, so maybe you should sit back and listen to your elders.

 

[medic170]

Who's being sarcastic? You may disagree with me but you haven't even started school yet class of 2009, so maybe you should sit back and listen to your elders.

1. Exactly how old are you Mr. Elder, I am 29? Are you really my elder?

2. What does being actually in med school have to do with my ability to form an informed political opinion about this. I have a B.S. degree with a specialization in Health policy, I spent a year as a health policy legislative assistant intern at the STate Capitol, and I have worked in healthcare for 8 years before returning to college. What the hell would learning the 1st and 2nd year basic sciences add to my ability to have an informed opinion?
🙄

 

[Furrball]

1. Exactly how old are you Mr. Elder, I am 29? Are you really my elder?

2. What does being actually in med school have to do with my ability to form an informed political opinion about this. I have a B.S. degree with a specialization in Health policy, I spent a year as a health policy legislative assistant intern at the STate Capitol, and I have worked in healthcare for 8 years before returning to college. What the hell would learning the 1st and 2nd year basic sciences add to my ability to have an informed opinion?
🙄

Uhhh, yes I am older than you. I also have more degrees than you but I digress. When you d/c someone to the street with a benzo taper for EtOH withdrawl because "the hospital is not a hotel" come talk to me. Drain a few IVDU's abscesses -- actually kind of fun -- and listen to their stories -- just plain depressing. See a few abused kids, take trauma call and witness just how stupid people really are.

BTW, you're right 1st and 2nd year won't help you, I'm talking 3rd and 4th year. Even there we as med students are very sheltered from just how messy real life and healthcare are. And with all of your experience you will know that what I said in my original post is true about who pays for healthcare, the tax structure, who pays for residency etc. I wasn't being sarcastic. I would just like people to actually live what they profess or be like the rest of us and realize that we are all flawed hypocrites living in a very flawed world. Just a long winded way of saying get off of your high horse and drop the assumed superiority. Learn a little humility sonny.

 

[medic170]

Uhhh, yes I am older than you. I also have more degrees than you but I digress. When you d/c someone to the street with a benzo taper for EtOH withdrawl because "the hospital is not a hotel" come talk to me. Drain a few IVDU's abscesses -- actually kind of fun -- and listen to their stories -- just plain depressing. See a few abused kids, take trauma call and witness just how stupid people really are.
.

I worked the city streets as a full time paramedic for 8 years, I have seen hell and I have paid my dues, but whatever. You win, you have more medical and political knowledge than I do, you have seen and experienced life's trials and tribulations more than me, and you are smarter with more degrees (BTW, how do you know if you have more degrees than me, you don't know me from Adam-anyway, I am sure you do, I only have 2) Do you feel better now? You are my intellectual superior and my elder, I shall not express my opinion anmy more because I see now that, since it differs from yours (my superior), than I am obviously wrong. BTW, no sarcasm here either 🙄

Regarding the subject though. I never said that the government does not subsidize, or should not subsidze healthcare as it does now. What I was saying is that I do NOT think the government should be relied upon (i.e. my money) to do MORE than it already does like socialist countries do.

 

[Furrball]

Regarding the subject though. I never said that the government does not subsidize, or should not subsidze healthcare as it does now. What I was saying is that I do NOT think the government should be relied upon (i.e. my money) to do MORE than it already does like socialist countries do.

Um, no you said that I was being sarcastic and that I shouldn't post anymore. My point wasn't that the government merely subsidizes healthcare. If you take into account that it directly pays for 40 % of healthcare and it indirectly pays for the other 60 % through tax exemption, then we essentially have a governemnt paid for national healthcare system. Just one that is the most expensive and inefficient in the world.

I have undieing respect for paramedics. I know next to nothing about scooping someone off of the pavement, stabilizing, packaging, and transporting to a hospital. I think you will find that it is different when you are part -- even if only a junior part -- of a team taking care of someone after EMS transfers care. I would be willing to bet that healthcare theory and politics will be different when it is your patient for whom the social worker can't find placement.

 

[Mothra]

Let buy his own.

Come on - I can't give my son gifts any more? What kind of Scrooge are you? Where's the love, Furrball?

Let him pay for medical school without government loans and decline any form of compensation during residency training.

"No government loans" may actually end up being the case. See, we're middle class... we don't get any breaks. As far as declining compensation during residency - I'd be willing to bet there's some law or regulation that would prevent that. Those government tentacles reach far, wide, and deep! (Think about it.)

Since A. Stafford loan interest is federally subsidized for the first $8000 per year and B. residency pay is paid for by Medicare -- evil liberal construct -- on the order of about $100,000 per year per resident. Oh and he shouldn't go to a state school since most states subsidize medical education -- being a good conservative he should pay his own way, just say no to welfare!

Medicare pays for NOTHING. Taxpayers pay for the entire cost of Medicare (and Medicaid, SSI, etc.). Remember - government creates nothing on its own. It only redistributes wealth in a variety of ways. [Actually, it does create one thing - a drag on our economy (a necessary drag only if the citizenry decides so).]

Socialism is evil. Is there any other rational way to see it?

As far as state support - I've paid state and federal income taxes for the last 30 years. It wouldn't be unreasonable to say I'm already fully vested in the original 529 plan. But let me be clear - I say no subsidies of any type (including education). I also say get the government OUT of education all together (to the point of disbanding the cabal of dullards and obstructionists known as the U.S. Dept. of Education). I think capitalism would work just fine, thank you.

He should probably avoid any program affiliated with the VA since the VA is an example of successful socialized medicine in the US.

There is no credible evidence that any socialized program has ever been successful at anything except generating shortages, apathy, and mediocrity. Ever. Period.

With those facts in mind, if the VA system doesn't produce shortages, apathy, and mediocrity, then it isn't a socialized program. Which is it?

Big hint: there is no set of credible facts that can prove socialized medicine is viable in the long term. Zero - zip - nada. Take an economics course, and be enlightened.

Hmm maybe he should just not go into medicine since the federal government pays for 40 % of all healthcare already and subsidizes the private health insurance industry since they do not tax healthcare benefits provided through employers as income -- ownership society?. He difinitely won't be able to do research since the vast majority of research in this country is paid for by the NIH and NSF through federal tax dollars and to accept such compensation could be argued as a form of accepting welfare.

The government pays for NOTHING. The taxpayers pay for EVERYTHING. Absolutely and completely EVERYTHING. Get it?

It sounds like you believe there's some sort of "government class" that is entitled to extract money/wealth from the rest of the population to "help" all us poor slobs who are completely incapable of running our lives on our own.

I say that government is of the people, by the people, and for the people. It is us. Government and its influence must be limited in its effects on the people, or tyranny is sure to follow.

 

[Mothra]

My thanks to CallawayDoc, LVDoc, lotanna, and medic170 for your advice.

 

[tigress]

If I lived in a country with socialized health care and other benefits that result from a more responsible government and different tax system, I would gladly give as much of my income as asked as long as I had enough to pay for a reasonable lifestyle for my family. If I lived in a Scandinavian country I would happily pay a very high tax rate. Don't assume that just because you hate taxes, everybody else does too. I'm proud to pay taxes, and my only regret is that they aren't used more appropriately.

 

[medic170]

I have undieing respect for paramedics. I know next to nothing about scooping someone off of the pavement, stabilizing, packaging, and transporting to a hospital. I think you will find that it is different when you are part -- even if only a junior part -- of a team taking care of someone after EMS transfers care. I would be willing to bet that healthcare theory and politics will be different when it is your patient for whom the social worker can't find placement.

I worked in the E.D. for 4 years and urgent care for 5, as well as a Family Practice for 1, and my wife is an MSW at a hospital, but whose counting? And I never said you "shouldn't post", I only said your sarcasm did not further your cause. I propose we agree to disagree and end this feud, truce???

 

[medic170]

I would gladly give as much of my income as asked as long as I had enough to pay for a reasonable lifestyle for my family. .

And you would trust your government to decide what a resonable lifestyle is? Your opinion may differ from "Big Brother's" Are you really so incapable, ignorant and irresponsible that you need the government to help you and police you in your financial decisions? I bet your not. I bet you are smart enough to make your own decisions and take care of yourself.

 

[medic170]

Come on - I can't give my son gifts any more? What kind of Scrooge are you? Where's the love, Furrball?

"No government loans" may actually end up being the case. See, we're middle class... we don't get any breaks. As far as declining compensation during residency - I'd be willing to bet there's some law or regulation that would prevent that. Those government tentacles reach far, wide, and deep! (Think about it.)

Medicare pays for NOTHING. Taxpayers pay for the entire cost of Medicare (and Medicaid, SSI, etc.). Remember - government creates nothing on its own. It only redistributes wealth in a variety of ways. [Actually, it does create one thing - a drag on our economy (a necessary drag only if the citizenry decides so).]

Socialism is evil. Is there any other rational way to see it?

As far as state support - I've paid state and federal income taxes for the last 30 years. It wouldn't be unreasonable to say I'm already fully vested in the original 529 plan. But let me be clear - I say no subsidies of any type (including education). I also say get the government OUT of education all together (to the point of disbanding the cabal of dullards and obstructionists known as the U.S. Dept. of Education). I think capitalism would work just fine, thank you.

There is no credible evidence that any socialized program has ever been successful at anything except generating shortages, apathy, and mediocrity. Ever. Period.

With those facts in mind, if the VA system doesn't produce shortages, apathy, and mediocrity, then it isn't a socialized program. Which is it?

Big hint: there is no set of credible facts that can prove socialized medicine is viable in the long term. Zero - zip - nada. Take an economics course, and be enlightened.

The government pays for NOTHING. The taxpayers pay for EVERYTHING. Absolutely and completely EVERYTHING. Get it?

It sounds like you believe there's some sort of "government class" that is entitled to extract money/wealth from the rest of the population to "help" all us poor slobs who are completely incapable of running our lives on our own.

I say that government is of the people, by the people, and for the people. It is us. Government and its influence must be limited in its effects on the people, or tyranny is sure to follow.

VERY well put 👍 Exactly how I feel.

 

[SocialistMD]

There is no credible evidence that any socialized program has ever been successful at anything except generating shortages, apathy, and mediocrity. Ever. Period.

With those facts in mind, if the VA system doesn't produce shortages, apathy, and mediocrity, then it isn't a socialized program. Which is it?

It sounds like you believe there's some sort of "government class" that is entitled to extract money/wealth from the rest of the population to "help" all us poor slobs who are completely incapable of running our lives on our own.

Go with a Littman Cardiology III. Best bang for the buck. It will run you about $130, but it is worth it. I would also engrave it, but with only the name, no title.

As for the above, I am going to have to go with Furrball on the VA issue. Your argument that the VA isn't a socialized program simply because it doesn't meet your criteria of "generating shortages, apathy, and mediocrity" is like me saying all cats are hateful and lazy and thus claiming my girlfriend's pet not a "cat" because he is actually active and friendly. The VA is, in fact, a tax-payer funded, government-run hospital system, which would qualify it as a form of socialized medicine.

As a supporter of "peace through superior firepower," I'm willing to bet you have no problem with the government spending tax money on weapons and other methods of defending our way of life. I'd like to hope you'd agree that the main role of the government is to defend its people's way of life. I'd then argue that education and health are just as important in that goal as "superior firepower," as they are a part of our way of life. In fact, superior firepower wouldn't be possible without first educating those developing said firepower. Therefore, the government has a role to play in education. Now, do I think it is doing a good job in our public schools? Not especially (and, as an aside, I think it took a turn for the worse with the "No child left behind" initiative, but that is a discussion for another time), but I don't think it is a reason for the government to "get out of education all together."

My main issue with your post, though, is the glaring contradiction that exists. You stated that the government is us, yet then said it spent the tax-payers money, not its own. However, the tax-payers are also us. Wouldn't that mean we are spending our own money...? You then say the government is growing in power over the people, thus you create the "government class" of which you accused Furrball (even though your version would represent everything dems see wrong with the government as much as the version you've accused Furrball of creating represents everything the pubs see wrong with the government; a fundamental piece of the basis of this and all political arguments I hope doesn't go unnoticed) yourself. I know that sounds about as weak as your "if the VA doesn't produce shortages, apathy, and mediocrity, then it isn't a socialized program" bit, but it does give something about which to think; you can't argue from both sides of the same coin and expect to hold court.

 

[Mothra]

Go with a Littman Cardiology III. Best bang for the buck. It will run you about $130, but it is worth it. I would also engrave it, but with only the name, no title.

That seems to be the consensus. Thanks for your input.

As for the above, I am going to have to go with Furrball on the VA issue. Your argument that the VA isn't a socialized program simply because it doesn't meet your criteria of "generating shortages, apathy, and mediocrity" is like me saying all cats are hateful and lazy and thus claiming my girlfriend's pet not a "cat" because he is actually active and friendly. The VA is, in fact, a tax-payer funded, government-run hospital system, which would qualify it as a form of socialized medicine.

I'm purposefully not a cat person , so I can't/won't relate. What I was trying to point out was that you can't have a socialist enterprise without shortages, apathy, and mediocrity. These are predictable effects explained by the science of economics.

As a supporter of "peace through superior firepower," I'm willing to bet you have no problem with the government spending tax money on weapons and other methods of defending our way of life. I'd like to hope you'd agree that the main role of the government is to defend its people's way of life. I'd then argue that education and health are just as important in that goal as "superior firepower," as they are a part of our way of life. In fact, superior firepower wouldn't be possible without first educating those developing said firepower. Therefore, the government has a role to play in education. Now, do I think it is doing a good job in our public schools? Not especially (and, as an aside, I think it took a turn for the worse with the "No child left behind" initiative, but that is a discussion for another time), but I don't think it is a reason for the government to "get out of education all together."

Creating a capable military cannot be a role of the individual, a Sunday afternoon bridge club, a city or two, or even a few neighboring states. So foreign policy is (correctly) reserved in the Constitution for the federal government; anything else would be nonsensical. The key concept here is "individuals can't do this on their own". But if you're suggesting that government's proper role with respect to education should only be as a consumer, and not also as owner/producer as it is today, then we have a breakthrough!

And what's wrong with NCLB, other than a bunch of organized labor types whining somewhere in the background? Accountability is cool! The history department at my youngest child's school has improved dramatically over the past few years due to NCLB and our state-imposed school accreditation system. As a parent and a taxpayer, I'm loving it! Now if they would just fire the really lousy teachers...

My main issue with your post, though, is the glaring contradiction that exists. You stated that the government is us, yet then said it spent the tax-payers money, not its own. However, the tax-payers are also us. Wouldn't that mean we are spending our own money...? You then say the government is growing in power over the people, thus you create the "government class" of which you accused Furrball (even though your version would represent everything dems see wrong with the government as much as the version you've accused Furrball of creating represents everything the pubs see wrong with the government; a fundamental piece of the basis of this and all political arguments I hope doesn't go unnoticed) yourself. I know that sounds about as weak as your "if the VA doesn't produce shortages, apathy, and mediocrity, then it isn't a socialized program" bit, but it does give something about which to think; you can't argue from both sides of the same coin and expect to hold court.

There's no contradiction... I cringe when someone says the government pays for anything - it's a contemptible lie. It's not the government's money - it's OUR money, pure and simple. Perhaps "we" (read majority) have decided to raise and spend taxes in a certain fashion for a time - and that's OK, or course, that's how our system works.

But it seems that those that desire greater government control over individuals and their decision-making also want us to believe that the government is entitled to the fruits of our labor, our private property, anything and everything. It's entitled to absolutely nothing! (Karl Marx had a lot to say about socialism once upon a time... as in the government is everything.)

What I wish for is more common sense in government - which never means "more" government, and almost always means "less". We are all safer and more prosperous that way.

 

[Mothra]

If I lived in a country with socialized health care and other benefits that result from a more responsible government and different tax system, I would gladly give as much of my income as asked as long as I had enough to pay for a reasonable lifestyle for my family. If I lived in a Scandinavian country I would happily pay a very high tax rate. Don't assume that just because you hate taxes, everybody else does too. I'm proud to pay taxes, and my only regret is that they aren't used more appropriately.

Well.. that's all fine and good, warm and fuzzy, etc.

But I have some questions. (1) Why do you have to be asked? If it's the right thing to do, why don't you just do it? Why does government have to be the vehicle for your (and my) altruism? There are lots of charities out there that do a much better job than any government. (2) Why aren't you moving to Scandinavia? Other than family, what's keeping you here post med-school? (I'm serious. I honestly don't understand why you think this.)

 

[SocialistMD]

Creating a capable military cannot be a role of the individual, a Sunday afternoon bridge club, a city or two, or even a few neighboring states. So foreign policy is (correctly) reserved in the Constitution for the federal government; anything else would be nonsensical. The key concept here is "individuals can't do this on their own". But if you're suggesting that government's proper role with respect to education should only be as a consumer, and not also as owner/producer as it is today, then we have a breakthrough!

I feel education is something many individuals can't do on their own. Most of the American public can't afford to send their children to private schools. Everyone has a right to an education. There must be some sort of net to educate those who would not be able to gain it otherwise. To oppose this is to support a caste-system wherein one is born into a station in life and can not advance.

And what's wrong with NCLB, other than a bunch of organized labor types whining somewhere in the background? Accountability is cool! The history department at my youngest child's school has improved dramatically over the past few years due to NCLB and our state-imposed school accreditation system. As a parent and a taxpayer, I'm loving it! Now if they would just fire the really lousy teachers...

I live in Texas, so I've seen the future of NCLB. Education has not improved in this state, and I feel it has taken a step backward since I was in high school. For example, under NCLB, students cannot "fail" based on academic performance until third grade (as that is the first grade at which the test is given, and the test now determines pass/fail, not the performance throughout the year) . This leads to second grade students who read at or below kindergarden level, yet will not be held back in grade level until third grade. By this time, there is no hope in bringing to grade level these students because the difference between kindergarden and third grade is a mountain no teacher, no matter how good s/he is, can overcome it while still assuring the rest of the students in the class learn what they need to learn.

Another of the many issues I have with NCLB is distribution of funds. To blame teachers for the shortcomings of parents is a severe disservice to some of the most underpaid and underappreciated people in our country's workforce. I'm sure that when your son was growing up, you and your spouse read to him, had him read to you, helped him with his homework, etc... This has a tremendous effect on the learning of children. However, many parents in other communities do not do this, and their child's learning is a larger struggle. It is also not uncommon for learning disabilities to be passed on from generation to generation. Adults with learning disabilities find it more difficult to land an maintain higher paying employment so they find themselves living in more impovershed neighborhoods and their children find their way into these schools with learning disabilities themselves. To penalize the teachers and schools where this occurs will again only lead to a greater education gap between the haves and the have-nots.
I have many other issues with NCLB, but I don't have the time to get into them today. Just know that, having a significant other who teaches the underserved, I have seen how NCLB "raises results," and it is not at all what your child's middle-class history department has seen.

There's no contradiction... I cringe when someone says the government pays for anything - it's a contemptible lie. It's not the government's money - it's OUR money, pure and simple.

I say that government is of the people, by the people, and for the people. It is us.

If you can't see how you are arguing two sides of the same coin in what you've said, it's fine with me; I've washed my hands of it.

 

[OSUdoc08]

I didn't realize that stethoscopes were so important to politics and government.....

😕

 

[subtle1epiphany]

I didn't realize that stethoscopes were so important to politics and government.....

😕

It's really more like a thread about politics and health care policy with a bit of stethoscope talk here and there.

eh, oh well 🙄