Stop Quacks at their source-petition for truth in education

[cdmguy]

A petition has been started to stop quacks at their source by banning federal aid for pseudoscience, forcing them to disclose all their student loan defaults and allowing all students access to whistleblower defenses if a school breaks state law.

Please sign the petition and encourage others to do so: http://tinyurl.com/6ssql5s

For more information: http://tinyurl.com/7z3zqt9

Join the petition and stand up for science and good medicine.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[facetguy]

First, student loan debt is a big problem in this country. But we're talking about 2 different situations here.

It's become dogma in our society that to be successful, one needs a college education. I suppose in many ways that remains true. But we are seeing now that kids graduating from college can't find decent jobs. That has to do with our national policies, world economics, political leaders that focus on getting re-elected and not on solving problems, and a host of other issues. In that regard, college grads who can't find work may not be to "blame" for their student loan debts.

But your situation is different. Yours is a simple case of buyer's remorse. You chose to be a chiropractor, racked up $215,000 in loan debt, discovered that you were no good at it, and had to close up shop. In other words, you took a business risk and it didn't work out. Now you want me, the taxpayer, to bail you out? Businesses fail everyday in this country. That's the risk you take to pursue the potential rewards of business success. All this jazz about "In order to prevent serious patient injuries I voluntarily quit practice" is revisionist history and you know it.

By the way: How, way back in 1996, did you accumulate $215,000 in student loans from chiro school?? Steak and Dom Perignon every night?

As to your friend Nick shown in the photo, who racked up $142,000 in debt from cooking school, I'm sure when he signed on to school he just knew he'd be the next Bobby Flay and would soon be rolling in dough from a chain of restaurants, a show on the Cooking Channel, and regular appearances on the Today Show. But then reality hit and he instead found himself making grilled cheese sandwiches in some truck stop diner in the middle of nowhere. Now he wants everyone else to pay for his poor judgement in racking up $142,000 in loans that he doesn't have a prayer of paying!!

In some ways, this reminds me of a few years ago when we had people who signed onto mortgages on $500,000 houses yet they only made $7.50/hour. That first mortgage payment came due and they suddenly realized "Holy crap, that's a lot of money that I owe. I can't pay that! Somebody help!!".

Yes, there are problems with skyrocketing tuition prices and easy access to student loans. But everyone who made bad decisions wants bailouts these days. I put you in that category.

 

[cdmguy]

I'm not surprised to see you rally to the defense of your fellow quacks facetguy. Your rambling comment is delusional. All anyone has to do is read the two links I posted to understand what is really going on.

 

[facetguy]

I'm not surprised to see you rally to the defense of your fellow quacks facetguy. Your rambling comment is delusional. All anyone has to do is read the two links I posted to understand what is really going on.

Again, I'm not saying there isn't a student loan bubble on the horizon. Yes, there are problems there. I am saying that your situation is not equivalent to that. You are in loan trouble because your business (chiro practice) went belly up. Why should I pay for that?

And I just flat out do not believe you when you now claim that you closed your practice "in order to prevent serious patient injuries", to use your words. That's a total crock. What does that even mean? As if patients are routinely seriously injured by chiropractors. Chiropractic is extraordinarily safe, which you would know if you took a look at real data in real journals instead of perpetually linking to classified ads in magazines as your sources.

 

[cdmguy]

Again, I'm not saying there isn't a student loan bubble on the horizon. Yes, there are problems there. I am saying that your situation is not equivalent to that. You are in loan trouble because your business (chiro practice) went belly up. Why should I pay for that?

Aside from the fact that I voluntarily quit and didn't bankrupt a chiropractic business which you imply you don't get it. 25% to 50% of chiropractors quit the field in 5-10 years. And the true default numbers are unknown because they only count the first two years of repayment. When they counted all defaults chiropractic institutions led all colleges in student loan defaults. This is likely the case and taxpayers are already paying for the defaults when they die. So if students are being misled into quackery and failing at it to boot, why should taxpayers subsidize them?

Steven Salzberg. "Why does the government subsidize chiropractic colleges?" Forbes.
6/10/2012.

So instead of trying to scapegoat this issue off as one bad apple practitioner a rational individual can clearly see that it is systemic and runs across many pseudoscience fields including acupuncture, naturopathy and chiropractic.

Not to say you are capable of being rational and objective-you're a chiropractor. Your job is to give quackery the best spin possible to sell it. Stop doing that and you're out of a job.

Your bias and the bias of chiropractic institutions is the problem. You can't be anything but dangerous and that's why taxpayers shouldn't fund you ripping off college students and give your institutions tax fee status to do it.

 

[deleted103644]

Whoa, facet guy, are you a chiropractor? No wonder your posts are full of so much bologna.

I can't believe the government backs student loans for chiropractors.

To be honest, I think the government should cut back on loans for osteopaths too.

Pseudoscience needs to be destroyed, or at least not government subsidized.

 

[cdmguy]

Pseudoscience needs to be destroyed, or at least not government subsidized.

JD, I am totally with you on this.

Look at this current straight chiropractic fundraising site:

Watch this professionally made video. Chiropractic associations are putting serious money into this campaign. You'll run out of fingers if you try to count the number of false and misleading statements. http://mcqi.org/ is the main website but it's replicated on youtube.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kan0KdqCOA[/YOUTUBE]

Sure it's a snappy propaganda video (did you like the cute little girls?) but the website gameplan is as bad as a "Pinky and the Brian" episode with chiropractors planning to take over the world and anyone who fraternizes with evidence based care is the enemy.

http://mcqi.org/about/strategic-plan

The fun stuff is towards the bottom:

100 Year Vision
Chiropractic serving the majority of the population in a predominantly vitalistic, vertebral subluxation centered model. Much like the dentist or optometrist, the chiropractor will be viewed as an essential provider for the health care consumer. The majority of infants will be checked soon after birth and regularly throughout their lives. The profession will be at the forefront of nervous system research and specifically regarding the detection and correction of vertebral subluxation. Chiropractic colleges will be state funded, yet retain their vitalistic philosophy. Vitalism will have made a resurgence with the assistance of a long term professionally guided program, in alliance with other proponents of vitalism, designed to develop the philosophical and scientific arguments and research in support of vitalism. The profession will be experiencing exponential growth and demand as the research continues to validate the safety and effectiveness of chiropractic in facilitating homeostasis, and in optimizing health, function and potential to individuals.

Initial Plan
The first 3 months will involve continued organization and adaptation to working cohesively as a body. Primary focus will be on communications and branding of MCQI, development of student groups, registration and fund development. Student groups on campus will fuel necessary reform and enroll new generations of DCs in support of the MCQI vision and mission. Registration is critical to assist in needed CCE reform, future educational and legislative reform efforts and long-range goals.

5 Year Goals

CCE Reforn
End drug assault
Reform NBCE
Remove PT/medical exam requirements from one state or more.
Increase utilization of Chiropractic in a vitalistic, VS centered model to 10%
Increase enrollment at vertebral subluxation focused schools.
Endowment fund assets at $1,000,000

10 Year Goals

End drug assault.
Remove PT/medical exam requirements from every state.
Increase utilization of Chiropractic in a vitalistic, VS (vertebral subluxation) centered model to 15%
Assist in formation of at least 3 new colleges.
Endowment fund assets at $10,000,000

25 Year Goals

Increase utilization of Chiropractic in a vitalistic, VS centered model to 25%
Assist in formation of at least 8 new colleges.
Endowment fund assets at $100,000,000

50 Year Goals

Increase utilization of Chiropractic in a vitalistic, VS centered model to 50%
Assist in formation of at least 10 new colleges.
Endowment fund assets at $1,000,000,000
CCE Reform
Reformation of the Council on Chiropractic Education (CCE).

NBCE Reform
Reformation of the National Board of Chiropractic Examiners (NBCE).

State Reform
Reformation of State Legislation.

International Issues
Addressing international issues.

From 30% decline in straight chiropractic enrollments due to rampant quackery to 50% public utilization (up from 7% utilization now) and a 1 trillion dollar budget-that's larger than many countries gross domestic product with no change to the quackery. That's going to take more than snappy video propaganda and national college recruitment tours.

They don't have a chance in pulling that off.

http://mcqi.org/vitalistic-curriculum/introduction

It is very popular at Life University and other straight programs.

http://vitalsourcelife.wordpress.co...ractic-quality-and-integrity-mcqi-marches-on/

Don't think this opinion is inconsequential. The US Dept of Education recently put the main chiropractic accreditor the Council on Chiropractic Education on 1 year probation because they deviated from straight chiropractic teachings by dropping debunked subluxation terminology from their standards and allowed chiropractic programs to start teaching to prescribe from a limited formulary.

This tiger will never change its stripes.

 

[PetMySausage]

I can't believe the government backs student loans for chiropractors.

To be honest, I think the government should cut back on loans for osteopaths too.

Pseudoscience needs to be destroyed, or at least not government subsidized.

I agree.

 

[cdmguy]

Guys take a minute and sign the petition.

 

[facetguy]

JD, I am totally with you on this.

Look at this current straight chiropractic fundraising site:

Watch this professionally made video. Chiropractic associations are putting serious money into this campaign. You'll run out of fingers if you try to count the number of false and misleading statements. http://mcqi.org/ is the main website but it's replicated on youtube.




It is very popular at Life University and other straight programs.

http://vitalsourcelife.wordpress.co...ractic-quality-and-integrity-mcqi-marches-on/

Don't think this opinion is inconsequential. The US Dept of Education recently put the main chiropractic accreditor the Council on Chiropractic Education on 1 year probation because they deviated from straight chiropractic teachings by dropping debunked subluxation terminology from their standards and allowed chiropractic programs to start teaching to prescribe from a limited formulary.

This tiger will never change its stripes.

Seriously, dude, are you stoned?? You are unquestionably the king of this kind of crap. You find some website, then slickly extrapolate to the entire profession because you know the people reading this on SDN have only a very superficial understanding of the issue and will likely believe your claims. This MCQI thing? I've been around for almost 2 decades and I've never seen nor heard of this...ever. Bear in mind that one moderately talented teenager could make a video like that; it's not some giant uprising within the chiro profession. And that other link suggesting this movement is "very popular" at chiro colleges...dude, you linked to one article written by one student in some online newsletter.

Just like your chiro career. Because there are a few bad apples in chiro (as there are in every walk of life), you just had to be a hero and 'voluntarily leave the profession to prevent doing serious harm to your patients'. That is such a bizarre extrapolation that nobody (including you) believes. There are plenty of chiros that have moved on from chiropractic, whether they went back to school or took a teaching position or opened a pizza shop; the difference is they haven't fabricated some bullcrap story and become obsessed with revising their personal histories.

I've told you this before: What has happened to you happened. Get beyond it and move forward with your life. Your obsession is not healthy.

 

[cdmguy]

Rob Sinott. CCE on Shaky Ground - One Year to Show it Represents Profession. The Chronicle of Chiropractic. Thursday, February 2, 2012.

December 14th, the Council on Chiropractic Education (CCE) was berated by the US Department of Education's NACIQI Committee.

The hearing before the packed room began by the CCE making a statement to explain their record-setting number of violations. After having over 3,000 complaints on the proposed Standards filed to the CCE by the profession, Dr. Wickes of the CCE stated, "This culminated in the unanimous approval of the new Standards in January 2011." The complaints against the changes to the Standards at that time were nearly all those filed in the process currently by the government. It was obvious that the CCE turned a deaf ear to the will of the profession.

There was much concern over several points, one of which is the CCE's attempted removal of the term "subluxation" this past year.

The CCE has a documented history of wrongfully abusing some Chiropractic schools while, in the case of D'Youville, putting students at risk by not adhering to the requirements in the CCE's own Standards. Referring to the case where a Federal judge ruled against the CCE, Dr. Mattie Leto testified:

"That decision prompted a federal judge to refer to the cartel like actions of the CCE as "an aggressive group of leaders of the eight liberal chiropractic schools, who had only one-third of the chiropractic students, had undertaken a series of corporate manipulations in order to reduce the representation and dominance of the eight conservative chiropractic schools (of which Life University was one), who had approximately two-thirds of all chiropractic students; that these corporate manipulations, which may very well have violated CCE's corporate charter, were calculated to give dominance to the liberal minority group over the conservative majority group."

So 2/3 of chiropractic programs, the larger ones, are straight. 1/3 are mixer (less anti-medical but still emphasize quackery).

The profession had a tremendously negative reaction to the proposed Standards the CCE sought to change over the past year. Thousands of DCs in the field, as well as students in our schools spoke out vehemently against this over-reach by the CCE.

(as mentioned above)

Many groups stepped forward during the hearing to offer testimony of the massive errors within the CCE, most of which were already enumerated by the government investigation of the CCE. These included the International Chiropractors Association (ICA), the International Federation of Chiropractors and Organizations (IFCO), Foundation for Vertebral Subluxation, Doctors for Excellence in Chiropractic Education (DECE), Movement for Chiropractic Quality and Integrity (MCQI), and others that came of their own accord from across the country to hold the CCE accountable for their monopolistic actions.

This establishes that the straight viewpoint in the video above represents the majority of chiropractic colleges.

 

[deleted103644]

Seriously, dude, are you stoned?? You are unquestionably the king of this kind of crap. You find some website, then slickly extrapolate to the entire profession because you know the people reading this on SDN have only a very superficial understanding of the issue and will likely believe your claims. This MCQI thing? I've been around for almost 2 decades and I've never seen nor heard of this...ever. Bear in mind that one moderately talented teenager could make a video like that; it's not some giant uprising within the chiro profession. And that other link suggesting this movement is "very popular" at chiro colleges...dude, you linked to one article written by one student in some online newsletter.

Just like your chiro career. Because there are a few bad apples in chiro (as there are in every walk of life), you just had to be a hero and 'voluntarily leave the profession to prevent doing serious harm to your patients'. That is such a bizarre extrapolation that nobody (including you) believes. There are plenty of chiros that have moved on from chiropractic, whether they went back to school or took a teaching position or opened a pizza shop; the difference is they haven't fabricated some bullcrap story and become obsessed with revising their personal histories.

I've told you this before: What has happened to you happened. Get beyond it and move forward with your life. Your obsession is not healthy.

A few bad apples? Pretty much all of chiropractic is quackery.

 

[cdmguy]

JD, every reform movement failed-the National Association for Chiropractic Medicine, orthopractic. Orthopractic was harassed by state chiropractic boards who threatened individual member licenses for promoting it. NACM (whose guideline is promoted on Quackwatch) had so few members that its president disbanded the organization. None of the chiropractic colleges is evidence based and the position of the accreditor (CCE) is that anything a program wants to teach is ok. Just read their guidelines.

The Council values educational freedom and institutional autonomy. The CCE does not define
or support any specific philosophy regarding the principles and practice of chiropractic, nor do
the CCE Standards support or accommodate any specific philosophical or political position.
The Standards do not establish the scope of chiropractic practice. They specify core
educational requirements but do not otherwise limit the educational process, program curricular
content, or topics of study (CCE Accreditation Standards. 2012. page iii. http://www.cce-usa.org/uploads/2012-01_CCE_STANDARDS.pdf)

So if chiropractic schools wanted to teach medicinal pot, Reiki, shamanism, psychic surgery with real chicken guts and channeling Ramtha-no problem. That's why cults gravitate to them (Scientology, Moonie (they own the Univ of Bridgeport chiropractic college) and of course the Palmer subluxation cult). Because of the extensive propaganda and indoctrination its best to think of chiropractic schools as legally sanctioned educational cults. Graduates are so deluded that they have no idea how extensively and effectively they have been scammed.

 

[deleted103644]

I don't really have any sympathy for graduates of chiropractic programs.

It should have been clear going into the degree that it has no merit.

 

[cdmguy]

JD,

It's better now with the internet but when under achieving students looking for a career run into affluent appearing chirpractors then get sucked into the anti-medical propaganda and cult indoctrination (love bombing and other tactics) it is easy for them to feel like chiropractic is a good choice. The main thing that is hurting them is publishing their low wages in the Occupational Outlook Handbook (67k/yr avg). That's on par with dental hygiene. But there was a time when that figure was 100k/yr. Also the fact that the Dept of Education only publishes defaults in the first two years of repayment hides their defaults.

I don't believe in selling out naive students just because they don't know any better. I'd rather see them protected and stop new quacks before they start.

 

[deleted103644]

If people want to learn crazy stuff, there's no stopping them.

I just want to protect taxpayers and patients from their BS.

 

[cdmguy]

I certainly agree that it's great to watch quacks get a dose of their own medicine but it is a tragedy when other fields have shortages while capable students are wasting their educations on chiropractic. Anyway it isn't an either, or problem. We can protect the students and the public at the same time by attacking their schools. They won't survive on an honest playing field; that's why they have to deceive so much.

By the way, the petition has a great feature where you can share it with your Facebook contacts. This is a really easy way to get more people involved. So take advantage of it.

 

[PetMySausage]

If people want to learn crazy stuff, there's no stopping them.

I just want to protect taxpayers and patients from their BS.

Exactly.