Stopping Elective Cases

[Leon'sMom]

Yeah, they're "waiting" the way OJ is waiting to go back to LA until they find the real killer.

People know that none of the Covid vaccines are FDA approved yet. The FDA serves a vital purpose.
The Thalidomide Tragedy: Lessons for Drug Safety and Regulation | Helix Magazine
Even though ACOG's recommendation is for pregnant and breast feeding women to get vaccinated, surely you can understand why some women would be hesitant. Some (most?) pregnant women worry about a lot of things-foods they eat, chemicals they come in contact with, alcohol, pesticides, prescription and OTC medicines. Why wouldn't they worry about getting a novel vaccination that hasn't been FDA approved yet? Perhaps some are waiting.

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[anonperson]

People know that none of the Covid vaccines are FDA approved yet. The FDA serves a vital purpose.
The Thalidomide Tragedy: Lessons for Drug Safety and Regulation | Helix Magazine
Even though ACOG's recommendation is for pregnant and breast feeding women to get vaccinated, surely you can understand why some women would be hesitant. Some (most?) pregnant women worry about a lot of things-foods they eat, chemicals they come in contact with, alcohol, pesticides, prescription and OTC medicines. Why wouldn't they worry about getting a novel vaccination that hasn't been FDA approved yet? Perhaps some are waiting.

You have the American College of OBGYN and the Society of Maternal Fetal Medicine advocating for COVID vaccines for pregnant patients but there is still a fair amount of push back because of lack of FDA approval.

Yet no one bats an eye when we use misoprostol off label to induce labor on a regular basis.

Similarly, these pregnant COVID patients who end up getting admitted get pumped full of remdesivir, steroids and antibiotics so they don't crump and no one says anything.

Not to mention, there is the risk of vertical spread of the virus which may cause placental issues, not to mention unknown long term fetal effects. Junior may have ended up losing a couple of IQ points when mom got infected...

At the end of the day, the risk of an mrna vaccine is going to be lower than getting infected by a novel coronavirus with such a wide array of clinical presentations, especially in pregnant women.

Unfortunately, the cult of ignorance is strong.

 

[dhb]

At the end of the day, the risk of an mrna vaccine is going to be lower than getting infected by a novel coronavirus

Lab engineered vaccine or lab engineered virus...? Take your pick.

 

[Leon'sMom]

You have the American College of OBGYN and the Society of Maternal Fetal Medicine advocating for COVID vaccines for pregnant patients but there is still a fair amount of push back because of lack of FDA approval.

Yet no one bats an eye when we use misoprostol off label to induce labor on a regular basis.

Similarly, these pregnant COVID patients who end up getting admitted get pumped full of remdesivir, steroids and antibiotics so they don't crump and no one says anything.

Not to mention, there is the risk of vertical spread of the virus which may cause placental issues, not to mention unknown long term fetal effects. Junior may have ended up losing a couple of IQ points when mom got infected...

At the end of the day, the risk of an mrna vaccine is going to be lower than getting infected by a novel coronavirus with such a wide array of clinical presentations, especially in pregnant women.

Unfortunately, the cult of ignorance is strong.

First, I truly do respect your medical training and professional experience, however your use of the term "cult of ignorance" is tone deaf and arrogant.

There is push back because of lack of FDA approval, yet certain employers are mandating vaccinations by end of Sept/Oct and pregnancy/breastfeeding is NOT an exemption. My husband's employer is one of those. Should a pregnant woman be coerced into vaccination with a non-FDA drug in order to retain her job? My opinion: no.

Misoprostol example is not equivalent as it is an FDA approved drug and patient has a choice. Treatment of a Covid infected pregnant patient with Remdesivir/steroids/antibiotics is not equivalent as the patient is choosing whether or not they want to take on the risk of such treatments (some which are FDA approved). The patient should always have final say in their own medical treatment.

Do you have data on the risk of vertical spread?

Conjecture about long term fetal effects are the same as conjecture about long term vaccine effects. Both conjecture.

Pregnancy is a hypercoagulable state which puts them at higher risk for bad Covid outcomes. However, we are also seeing data that the vaccine is causing clots.

At the end of the day, not every pregnant woman is going to be infected with Covid. Some may be weighing their risks between an infection that is 99% recoverable and a non-FDA approved vaccine. What is the VAERs data on fetal demise in vaccinated women? It's not a zero risk is it?

People should always have the right to determine their own medical treatments. They may not follow every medical recommendation. They may not take advantage of every medical intervention. They may not choose what you'd like them to choose. But it doesn't mean they are in a cult of ignorance.

 

[vector2]

Lack of "full" FDA approval is a red herring used by ignorant, uninformed people who would latch onto some other excuse to be anti-vax if that excuse were unavailable.

 

[thinkorswim]

I would say this is about right.

 

[anonperson]

First, I truly do respect your medical training and professional experience, however your use of the term "cult of ignorance" is tone deaf and arrogant.

There is push back because of lack of FDA approval, yet certain employers are mandating vaccinations by end of Sept/Oct and pregnancy/breastfeeding is NOT an exemption. My husband's employer is one of those. Should a pregnant woman be coerced into vaccination with a non-FDA drug in order to retain her job? My opinion: no.

Misoprostol example is not equivalent as it is an FDA approved drug and patient has a choice. Treatment of a Covid infected pregnant patient with Remdesivir/steroids/antibiotics is not equivalent as the patient is choosing whether or not they want to take on the risk of such treatments (some which are FDA approved). The patient should always have final say in their own medical treatment.

Do you have data on the risk of vertical spread?

Conjecture about long term fetal effects are the same as conjecture about long term vaccine effects. Both conjecture.

Pregnancy is a hypercoagulable state which puts them at higher risk for bad Covid outcomes. However, we are also seeing data that the vaccine is causing clots.

At the end of the day, not every pregnant woman is going to be infected with Covid. Some may be weighing their risks between an infection that is 99% recoverable and a non-FDA approved vaccine. What is the VAERs data on fetal demise in vaccinated women? It's not a zero risk is it?

People should always have the right to determine their own medical treatments. They may not follow every medical recommendation. They may not take advantage of every medical intervention. They may not choose what you'd like them to choose. But it doesn't mean they are in a cult of ignorance.

Yes. It is a cult of ignorance. When I ask patients why they don't want this vaccine or something like Tdap (another recommended vaccine in pregnancy), I get some vague BS answer not based in reality.

When national organizations like ACOG and SMFM are recommending covid vaccines for pregnant patients yet we still see stubborn resistance, then I am not being tone deaf in calling a patient a *****.

I know the deal though. You can't cure stupid.

No one is coercing anybody. If you don't want the vaccine, be prepared to possibly lose your job. No one is going to jail. I think that's perfectly fine in the face of the current situation.

Misoprostol is an off label use for induction of labor. ACOG has come out and stated it is safe to use for induction of labor. The FDA has never made any such statements.

It's strange how ACOG indicating misoprostol is safe for induction is fine but them recommending the vaccine is somehow unreasonable.

I am only aware of the J and J vaccine increasing thrombosis risk not the Pfizer/Moderna. Happy to look at any additional data regarding this. I tell my patients I prefer the pfizer/Moderna vaccines regardless.

Regarding the patient having a choice in their treatment. There really isn't a choice. Last week I had to admit a hypoxic unvaccinated 31 week pregnant patient. Just didn't want to get the vaccine. When faced with the risk of possible intubation/ death she seemed fine to get loaded up on remdesivir and steroids (these are not FDA approved in pregnancy, only case series indicating reasonable short term safety).

How is that somehow a reasonable situation: possible death or unknown medications. That is being coerced.

My irritation is in the fact that there is a reasonable and safe strategy to minimize the burden of Covid in vaccination. It isn't perfect but it is a game changer but we have people clinging to their ignorance because of their feelings. And my colleagues and myself have to continue to put ourselves in harms way to clean up the mess.

What's amazing is that it is just not one type of person. You have right leaning super religious White people, Black people who don't trust the vaccine, Hispanic people etc. It is kind of heartwarming to see all of these different types of people united in their ignorance.

It's fine if one doesn't want the vaccine, but why come to the hospital when $hit hits the fan? Stay home and deal with it.

Oh I know why,

"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth" -Mike Tyson

 

[pgg]

People should always have the right to determine their own medical treatments. They may not follow every medical recommendation. They may not take advantage of every medical intervention. They may not choose what you'd like them to choose. But it doesn't mean they are in a cult of ignorance.

So I do generally agree with you on the broad principle that people should be free to make bad decisions that harm themselves. And the argument that self-harm translates into societal harm, justifying legal prohibitions on self-harming activity can get a little slippery.

Generally speaking, I tilt toward individual freedom even if that freedom carries a modest societal burden or impact.

Even though I oppose seat belt laws on principle, I still think people who don't wear them are foolish. Some people think the healthcare cost borne by society to care for vegetables who used to ride their Harleys with hair gloriously streaming in the wind, before their avoidable brain injury, are enough to justify helmet laws. I disagree and I think vegetable care is an acceptable price for not limiting that freedom.

But exercising one's inalienable right to self determination and self harm by doing helmet-less wheelies on a dirt bike in the wilderness, or doing pull-ups hanging off a bridge for the YouTube hits, doesn't mean those people aren't dumb.

Likewise, I won't dispute that the people declining the vaccine for meme-related reasons absolutely have the RIGHT to do so. But they can still be foolish. And yeah, a large percentage of them are part of the Trump cult cohort.

So YES, there is a cult of ignorance.

I have a deep and abiding respect for individual freedom - and that includes the freedom to make bad decisions. People who aren't free to **** up their lives and die foolishly aren't really free. The dirty little secret of freedom is that you're on your own. But that doesn't mean we should just pretend that all decisions are equally wise, and all interpretations of data are equally valid. They are not.

 

[dpmd]

First, I truly do respect your medical training and professional experience, however your use of the term "cult of ignorance" is tone deaf and arrogant.

There is push back because of lack of FDA approval, yet certain employers are mandating vaccinations by end of Sept/Oct and pregnancy/breastfeeding is NOT an exemption. My husband's employer is one of those. Should a pregnant woman be coerced into vaccination with a non-FDA drug in order to retain her job? My opinion: no.

Misoprostol example is not equivalent as it is an FDA approved drug and patient has a choice. Treatment of a Covid infected pregnant patient with Remdesivir/steroids/antibiotics is not equivalent as the patient is choosing whether or not they want to take on the risk of such treatments (some which are FDA approved). The patient should always have final say in their own medical treatment.

Do you have data on the risk of vertical spread?

Conjecture about long term fetal effects are the same as conjecture about long term vaccine effects. Both conjecture.

Pregnancy is a hypercoagulable state which puts them at higher risk for bad Covid outcomes. However, we are also seeing data that the vaccine is causing clots.

At the end of the day, not every pregnant woman is going to be infected with Covid. Some may be weighing their risks between an infection that is 99% recoverable and a non-FDA approved vaccine. What is the VAERs data on fetal demise in vaccinated women? It's not a zero risk is it?

People should always have the right to determine their own medical treatments. They may not follow every medical recommendation. They may not take advantage of every medical intervention. They may not choose what you'd like them to choose. But it doesn't mean they are in a cult of ignorance.

Zero elevation in risk (spontaneous abortions and other pregnancy issues were not increased from baseline rates). The same cannot be said for covid infection. The difference in your conjecture on long term effects of covid vaccine versus the conjecture on long term risks of covid infection is only one of those has biological plausibility (because the vaccine components disappear the only long term effects would be those that would have been present and likely worse with covid infection). It isn't a cult of ignorance because they are making choices we disagree with. It is a cult because they are making those choices because they choose the believe the few fringe ideas rather than be educated on reality. You can tell because the phrasing of the objections is the same. Like a chant almost.

 

[nimbus]

Yes. It is a cult of ignorance. When I ask patients why they don't want this vaccine or something like Tdap (another recommended vaccine in pregnancy), I get some vague BS answer not based in reality.

When national organizations like ACOG and SMFM are recommending covid vaccines for pregnant patients yet we still see stubborn resistance, then I am not being tone deaf in calling a patient a *****.

I know the deal though. You can't cure stupid.

No one is coercing anybody. If you don't want the vaccine, be prepared to possibly lose your job. No one is going to jail. I think that's perfectly fine in the face of the current situation.

Misoprostol is an off label use for induction of labor. ACOG has come out and stated it is safe to use for induction of labor. The FDA has never made any such statements.

It's strange how ACOG indicating misoprostol is safe for induction is fine but them recommending the vaccine is somehow unreasonable.

I am only aware of the J and J vaccine increasing thrombosis risk not the Pfizer/Moderna. Happy to look at any additional data regarding this. I tell my patients I prefer the pfizer/Moderna vaccines regardless.

Regarding the patient having a choice in their treatment. There really isn't a choice. Last week I had to admit a hypoxic unvaccinated 31 week pregnant patient. Just didn't want to get the vaccine. When faced with the risk of possible intubation/ death she seemed fine to get loaded up on remdesivir and steroids (these are not FDA approved in pregnancy, only case series indicating reasonable short term safety).

How is that somehow a reasonable situation: possible death or unknown medications. That is being coerced.

My irritation is in the fact that there is a reasonable and safe strategy to minimize the burden of Covid in vaccination. It isn't perfect but it is a game changer but we have people clinging to their ignorance because of their feelings. And my colleagues and myself have to continue to put ourselves in harms way to clean up the mess.

What's amazing is that it is just not one type of person. You have right leaning super religious White people, Black people who don't trust the vaccine, Hispanic people etc. It is kind of heartwarming to see all of these different types of people united in their ignorance.

It's fine if one doesn't want the vaccine, but why come to the hospital when $hit hits the fan? Stay home and deal with it.

Oh I know why,

"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth" -Mike Tyson

It’s funny people will readily follow most medical advice unless Fox News/Qanon makes it controversial.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

What's amazing is that it is just not one type of person. You have right leaning super religious White people, Black people who don't trust the vaccine, Hispanic people etc. It is kind of heartwarming to see all of these different types of people united in their ignorance.

It's fine if one doesn't want the vaccine, but why come to the hospital when $hit hits the fan? Stay home and deal with it.

Oh I know why,

"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth" -Mike Tyson

QFT.

 

[gasdoc77]

First, I truly do respect your medical training and professional experience, however your use of the term "cult of ignorance" is tone deaf and arrogant.

There is push back because of lack of FDA approval, yet certain employers are mandating vaccinations by end of Sept/Oct and pregnancy/breastfeeding is NOT an exemption. My husband's employer is one of those. Should a pregnant woman be coerced into vaccination with a non-FDA drug in order to retain her job? My opinion: no.

Misoprostol example is not equivalent as it is an FDA approved drug and patient has a choice. Treatment of a Covid infected pregnant patient with Remdesivir/steroids/antibiotics is not equivalent as the patient is choosing whether or not they want to take on the risk of such treatments (some which are FDA approved). The patient should always have final say in their own medical treatment.

Do you have data on the risk of vertical spread?

Conjecture about long term fetal effects are the same as conjecture about long term vaccine effects. Both conjecture.

Pregnancy is a hypercoagulable state which puts them at higher risk for bad Covid outcomes. However, we are also seeing data that the vaccine is causing clots.

At the end of the day, not every pregnant woman is going to be infected with Covid. Some may be weighing their risks between an infection that is 99% recoverable and a non-FDA approved vaccine. What is the VAERs data on fetal demise in vaccinated women? It's not a zero risk is it?

People should always have the right to determine their own medical treatments. They may not follow every medical recommendation. They may not take advantage of every medical intervention. They may not choose what you'd like them to choose. But it doesn't mean they are in a cult of ignorance.,

I have a hard time looking past mandating the vaccine in people who have had proven prior infections, as opposed to allowing choice (even making recommendations). That makes me question motives at some level.

 

[secretasianman]

I thought it was:
“Everyone has a plan til they get punched in the fayyyth.” -MT

 

[Leon'sMom]

Gasdoc77 said: "I have a hard time looking past mandating the vaccine in people who have had proven prior infections, as opposed to allowing choice (even making recommendations). That makes me question motives at some level."

Are you saying that people who can prove antibody levels from a prior infection or who have documentation of a prior infection should not be mandated to receive a vaccine (as a requirement to participate in something)? If so, I agree with you.

Again, playing devil's advocate: 18 year old Johnny became eligible to receive his Covid vaccine on June 15, but before he got to his appointment he came down with Covid on June 10. On August 15 he was scheduled to start classes at XYZ University. This is 8 weeks after recovering from Covid. He is being told that he cannot attend classes or live in his dorm unless he is fully vaccinated prior to August 15. Despite his naturally attained immunity and his low likelihood of infecting somebody, he is being coerced into getting his vaccine prior the medically acceptable window of 90 days and potentially (theoretically) increasing his risk for myocarditis from the vaccine. This is not the best medical action to be taken, IMO. There is no reason why Johnny should not be allowed to matriculate on August 15 despite being unvaccinated.

 

[thinkorswim]

So I do generally agree with you on the broad principle that people should be free to make bad decisions that harm themselves. And the argument that self-harm translates into societal harm, justifying legal prohibitions on self-harming activity can get a little slippery.

Generally speaking, I tilt toward individual freedom even if that freedom carries a modest societal burden or impact.

Even though I oppose seat belt laws on principle, I still think people who don't wear them are foolish. Some people think the healthcare cost borne by society to care for vegetables who used to ride their Harleys with hair gloriously streaming in the wind, before their avoidable brain injury, are enough to justify helmet laws. I disagree and I think vegetable care is an acceptable price for not limiting that freedom.

But exercising one's inalienable right to self determination and self harm by doing helmet-less wheelies on a dirt bike in the wilderness, or doing pull-ups hanging off a bridge for the YouTube hits, doesn't mean those people aren't dumb.

Likewise, I won't dispute that the people declining the vaccine for meme-related reasons absolutely have the RIGHT to do so. But they can still be foolish. And yeah, a large percentage of them are part of the Trump cult cohort.

So YES, there is a cult of ignorance.

I have a deep and abiding respect for individual freedom - and that includes the freedom to make bad decisions. People who aren't free to **** up their lives and die foolishly aren't really free. The dirty little secret of freedom is that you're on your own. But that doesn't mean we should just pretend that all decisions are equally wise, and all interpretations of data are equally valid. They are not.

Your argument would make more sense if unhelmeted bikers and unrestrained drivers were knowingly endangering the lives of literally anyone they come in contact with, especially young children who are most vulnerable, and are occurring at a frequency that literally cripples our healthcare system. Covid has caused more than a “modest societal burden.”

 

[deleted697535]

People know that none of the Covid vaccines are FDA approved yet. The FDA serves a vital purpose.
The Thalidomide Tragedy: Lessons for Drug Safety and Regulation | Helix Magazine
Even though ACOG's recommendation is for pregnant and breast feeding women to get vaccinated, surely you can understand why some women would be hesitant. Some (most?) pregnant women worry about a lot of things-foods they eat, chemicals they come in contact with, alcohol, pesticides, prescription and OTC medicines. Why wouldn't they worry about getting a novel vaccination that hasn't been FDA approved yet? Perhaps some are waiting.

Have you put a pregnant covid on ecmo? Its great

 

[dhb]

I'm under 30 and healthy, why should i get the vaccine?

 

[deleted126335]

I'm under 30 and healthy, why should i get the vaccine?

Because based on what we know currently, the risk/benefit ratio still favors it. Although it is less of a slam dunk than if you were older and less than healthy.

 

[nimbus]

I'm under 30 and healthy, why should i get the vaccine?

Doogie Howser?

 

[nimbus]

One of our local private high schools had to delay the start of their in person fall term because one of the attendees at an in person staff meeting had COVID. Everyone who attended the meeting has to quarantine so they can’t reopen on the original date. I imagine the new in person school term will be very short lived without a mask mandate.

 

[nimbus]

Gasdoc77 said: "I have a hard time looking past mandating the vaccine in people who have had proven prior infections, as opposed to allowing choice (even making recommendations). That makes me question motives at some level."

Are you saying that people who can prove antibody levels from a prior infection or who have documentation of a prior infection should not be mandated to receive a vaccine (as a requirement to participate in something)? If so, I agree with you.

Again, playing devil's advocate: 18 year old Johnny became eligible to receive his Covid vaccine on June 15, but before he got to his appointment he came down with Covid on June 10. On August 15 he was scheduled to start classes at XYZ University. This is 8 weeks after recovering from Covid. He is being told that he cannot attend classes or live in his dorm unless he is fully vaccinated prior to August 15. Despite his naturally attained immunity and his low likelihood of infecting somebody, he is being coerced into getting his vaccine prior the medically acceptable window of 90 days and potentially (theoretically) increasing his risk for myocarditis from the vaccine. This is not the best medical action to be taken, IMO. There is no reason why Johnny should not be allowed to matriculate on August 15 despite being unvaccinated.

My hospital requires vaccination but allows medical waivers. Maybe Johnny can get antibody titers drawn and get a medical waiver.

 

[repititionition]

Have you put a pregnant covid on ecmo? Its great

Same. And not just one.

I’ve seen some **** over the last two years, and the worst part is that I’m not sure the nonbelievers would change their mind even if they were able to see it for themselves.

 

[coffeebythelake]

I'm under 30 and healthy, why should i get the vaccine?

Because under 30 and healthy people can still get severe COVID?

Because you might be taking care of patients who are considerably older and sicker?

Selfish and selfless reasons. Take your pick.

 

[nimbus]

As in of our cardiac surgeons would say…..unbelievable.

 

[dhb]

Because under 30 and healthy people can still get severe COVID?

Because you might be taking care of patients who are considerably older and sicker?

Selfish and selfless reasons. Take your pick.

1. What are the odds of severe covid with significant morbidity for people under 30 and healthy?

2. I'm not a health care "provider"

 

[vector2]

1. What are the odds of severe covid with significant morbidity for people under 30 and healthy?

2. I'm not a health care "provider"

Barring the non-negligible risk of long covid sxs in otherwise healthy young people, you are aware that delta in comparison to alpha replicates at an order of magnitude greater in the nasopharynx and that it has an r0 of 7?

But I guess f*** other people, amirite?

 

[Southpaw]

1. What are the odds of severe covid with significant morbidity for people under 30 and healthy?

2. I'm not a health care "provider"

You’re under 30? Anyway, the odds are low. It’s far more likely that healthy young person will contract asymptomatic or lightly symptomatic covid and give it to someone not healthy/not under 30 (for example, our patients).

 

[coffeebythelake]

1. What are the odds of severe covid with significant morbidity for people under 30 and healthy?

2. I'm not a health care "provider"

Unless you are a hermit, surely you find yourself around other people who are older and sicker than you. A parent? Grandparent? Neighbor? Coworker?? The point sticks regardless of the mental gymnastics.

(We've intubated quite a few young healthy covid patients. Almost all unvaxxed. A week ago it was a pregnant 3rd trimester woman.)

 

[coffeebythelake]

You’re under 30? Anyway, the odds are low. It’s far more likely that healthy young person will contract asymptomatic or lightly symptomatic covid and give it to someone not healthy/not under 30 (for example, our patients).

The odds are also low that someone would die from a car crash, but we still advocate for wearing seat belts.

 

[coffeebythelake]

You’re under 30? Anyway, the odds are low. It’s far more likely that healthy young person will contract asymptomatic or lightly symptomatic covid and give it to someone not healthy/not under 30 (for example, our patients).

I think dhb is taking upon the persona of an average 30 year old healthy adult asking such questions.

 

[Stank811]

Isn’t the reason the CDC changed their mask recommendations because both vaxed and unvaxed can spread the virus?

 

[Southpaw]

The odds are also low that someone would die from a car crash, but we still advocate for wearing seat belts.

I don’t particularly care much about seatbelts. Do I wear them? Yes of course. I’m not an idiot. But stupid people will be stupid. Those who don’t wear seatbelts generally only hurt themselves. That isn’t the case w viral spread among an unvaccinated populace.

i do care about a public health crisis. I care about stupid unvaccinated people who spread this disease whether asymptomatically or symptomatically to those more vulnerable. A vaccination program is a great example of people working together and/or sacrificing to do something for the greater good. It’s also why I believe the anti-vaxx physician/nursing crowd are completely selfish idiots and should be fired immediately.

there was a time that America had the ability to sacrifice for the greater good. Apparently that time is no longer. Shame on us.

 

[Blockit]

Unless you are a hermit, surely you find yourself around other people who are older and sicker than you. A parent? Grandparent? Neighbor? Coworker?? The point sticks regardless of the mental gymnastics.

(We've intubated quite a few young healthy covid patients. Almost all unvaxxed. A week ago it was a pregnant 3rd trimester woman.)

Indeed. I can share two recent anecdotes:
early 30s nurse, charge nurse for our preop. Unvaccinated.
went away for vacation, got Covid on vacation. That was weeks ago. Now they are back, and report that they had nine days of high fevers and punishing fatigue.

The other is from one of our critical care physicians, who says that just about everybody who is intubated is younger and unvaccinated, and that we are losing about 20% of them.

Delta is different.

 

[Stank811]

I don’t particularly care much about seatbelts. Do I wear them? Yes of course. I’m not an idiot. But stupid people will be stupid. Those who don’t wear seatbelts generally only hurt themselves. That isn’t the case w viral spread among an unvaccinated populace.

i do care about a public health crisis. I care about stupid unvaccinated people who spread this disease whether asymptomatically or symptomatically to those more vulnerable. A vaccination program is a great example of people working together and/or sacrificing to do something for the greater good. It’s also why I believe the anti-vaxx physician/nursing crowd are completely selfish idiots and should be fired immediately.

there was a time that America had the ability to sacrifice for the greater good. Apparently that time is no longer. Shame on us.

Why do you think it is only the unvaccinated spreading the virus? Has been show a vaccinated individual can have similar viral load to a unvaccinated. Which is why the CDC changed the mask recommendations

 

[Southpaw]

Why do you think it is only the unvaccinated spreading the virus? Has been show a vaccinated individual can have similar viral load to a unvaccinated. Which is why the CDC changed the mask recommendations

I don’t think it’s only the unvaccinated. However I do think remaining unvaccinated and believing you should be allowed to care for patients sends the wrong message and I’m glad health systems are pushing vaccination.

I think masking and social distancing works. However I’m speaking on public health not individual examples. Yes, vaccinated people can get covid and get sick. They can also spread the disease. But look at the data. Vaccinated people have far less morbidity/mortality and aren’t getting hospitalized in high numbers relative to the unvaccinated. The covid vaccine has been a huge scientific success. It works and everyone should get it. That should be our message.

 

[Southpaw]

An Indiana doctor's COVID-19 comments went viral. They were also full of misinformation.

Dr. Dan Stock, a doctor from Greenfield, spread misinformation about masks at a school board meeting in Indiana. It went viral.

www.yahoo.com

So this doctor gets a forum, spreads misinformation, and the video gets 500k views. The lies just spread from there. This is the nonsense I’m talking about.

 

[Stank811]

I agree with you that the vaccine works in that it does a great job at preventing significant morbidity and mortality. But I don’t understand the jump in reasoning to why an unvaccinated physician can’t care for patients? It is like saying an obese physician can’t care for patients.

 

[Beach bum]

An Indiana doctor's COVID-19 comments went viral. They were also full of misinformation.

Dr. Dan Stock, a doctor from Greenfield, spread misinformation about masks at a school board meeting in Indiana. It went viral.

www.yahoo.com

So this doctor gets a forum, spreads misinformation, and the video gets 500k views. The lies just spread from there. This is the nonsense I’m talking about.

My contention is from an early point in this debacle, that the greater pandemic is one of MISINFORMATION!!!!!

 

[Iso4ane]

There are people who are waiting for FDA approval to happen. This is likely a small percentage
There are people who are still waiting 90 days after having a positive PCR test.
There are people who think natural immunity is superior to induced immunity. Have they heard of Polio, or Shingles, or Measles Encephalitis, or Tetanus?
There's been confusing guidance on mask wearing. Initially it was the save them for healthcare workers, later it was for all the whiny people.
There's been poor data collection and reporting on Covid deaths. Probably underreporting, and underreporting of secondary deaths (deaths due to lack of resource because they are directed for COVID patients)
There's been poor information on the transmissibility of the virus. True, we know it’s high as ****, just don’t know how high
The government shutdowns hurt people financially, psychologically, educationally. Compared to other counties our ‘lockdowns’ were wimpy, and yes although other countries are still having outbreaks, they’re closer to prepandemic levels of productivity than the US
The risk to children remains extremely low. Low is not zero. Your risk of getting in a car accident is low, but you still should place them in a car seat.
Parents do not want government overriding their parental rights. There is a reason institutions like CPS exist. The government does have a vested interest making sure children as raised in a safe environment. (Otherwise what’s preventing these parents from beating their children; wouldn’t that be their parental right to discipline.)
Nobody has the right to force you to inject something into your body that you do not want. Period. That is totalitarian. What are your feelings of selective service and the draft?

 

[Southpaw]

I agree with you that the vaccine works in that it does a great job at preventing significant morbidity and mortality. But I don’t understand the jump in reasoning to why an unvaccinated physician can’t care for patients? It is like saying an obese physician can’t care for patients.

can people get fat from seeing the obese physician?

 

[coffeebythelake]

My contention is from an early point in this debacle, that the greater pandemic is one of MISINFORMATION!!!!!

Yes. Misinformation and Stupidity

 

[Beach bum]

Yes. Misinformation and Stupidity

Well of course the stupidity was always there and just fertile ground for the misinformation.

 

[Stank811]

can people get fat from seeing the obese physician?

No but by being vaccinated doesn’t prevent you from spreading COViD either

 

[pocafx]

Since delta is new variant does the old vaccine work? I've seen articles citing low efficacy. Similar to new flu vaccine each year, does it make sense to take old vaccine for new variant.

 

[Blockit]

Since delta is new variant does the old vaccine work? I've seen articles citing low efficacy. Similar to new flu vaccine each year, does it make sense to take old vaccine for new variant.

According to what limited data is available, the best protection against delta appears to be from the Moderna vaccine. All of the vaccines offer “some” protection against delta

 

[Southpaw]

No but by being vaccinated doesn’t prevent you from spreading COViD either

And being unvaccinated as a healthcare professional, in this public health crisis, is being part of the problem not part of the solution.

 

[Iso4ane]

Lab engineered vaccine or lab engineered virus...? Take your pick.

Even if was lab engineered, God/nature is just one-upping us at this point.

 

[gasdoc77]

No but by being vaccinated doesn’t prevent you from spreading COViD either

Is it uniformly accepted that vaccinated individuals carry virus and can infect others? Is it also accepted that vaccination lessens or eliminates symptoms?

If both are true, the argument of getting the vaccine to protect OTHERS seems invalid.

Furthermore, the asymptomatic carrier would be MORE likely to infect others, like giving your sick kid Tylenol and sending them to school.

So far as the at-risk population getting the shot to protect themSELVES, that seems like a reasonable risk benefit to consider.

 

[Stank811]

And being unvaccinated as a healthcare professional, in this public health crisis, is being part of the problem not part of the

And being unvaccinated as a healthcare professional, in this public health crisis, is being part of the problem not part of the solution.

Is it uniformly accepted that vaccinated individuals carry virus and can infect others? Is it also accepted that vaccination lessens or eliminates symptoms?

If both are true, the argument of getting the vaccine to protect OTHERS seems invalid.

Furthermore, the asymptomatic carrier would be MORE likely to infect others, like giving your sick kid Tylenol and sending them to school.

So far as the at-risk population getting the shot to protect themSELVES, that seems like a reasonable risk benefit to consider.

From what I have read I think it is uniformity accepted that if you are vaccinated you still can have a COViD viral load similar to that of an unvaccinated individual which the assumption then is both vaccinated and unvaccinated can spread virus which is also supported by the multiple studies and case scenarios in which virus was spread between I a group of fully vaccinated individuals. I have not read anything suggesting the degree of spread comparing one group to the other.

I also agree vaccination helps reduce morbidity and mortality.

I agree recommendations for vaccination should be made based on risk assessment but even then I have a hard time with mandates which is a different discussion

 

[Southpaw]

From what I have read I think it is uniformity accepted that if you are vaccinated you still can have a COViD viral load similar to that of an unvaccinated individual which the assumption then is both vaccinated and unvaccinated can spread virus which is also supported by the multiple studies and case scenarios in which virus was spread between I a group of fully vaccinated individuals. I have not read anything suggesting the degree of spread comparing one group to the other.

I also agree vaccination helps reduce morbidity and mortality.

I agree recommendations for vaccination should be made based on risk assessment but even then I have a hard time with mandates which is a different discussion

prior to delta I read through the CDC that vaccination reduced viral load and transmissibility. Delta may have changed that, though some studies out there are showing that delta may not live as long in the vaccinated relative to the not. I think it’s irresponsible for the medical community to be divided on the message it sends to the public, which is that vaccination is imperative and is our best chance at keeping people at home and healthy.

it’s also hard to argue against masking though there isn’t great evidence outside of the anecdotal. Like @nimbus I haven’t had so much as a cold since the start of covid. I wear my mask. I wash my hands all the time. I don’t shake hands anymore.

I feel like when the medical community starts the ‘you can still get and spread covid while vaccinated’ or ‘hey natural immunity is better than vaccination’ we are sending the public a very dangerous, mixed message and we are no different than Tucker Carlson (who is almost surely vaccinated and probably was before anyone here). The mixed message leads to ambiguity and mistrust and adds fuel to the fire of the anti-vaxxers growing across social media.