Straight A's - but at the cost of antagonizing my profs - is it worth it?

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calimeds

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Has anyone else experienced this phenomena? You grow up and develop disciplined study habits - resulting in true mastery of whatever you're being taught.

Once you achieve topic mastery you realize that faculty are far from perfect:

  • Lazy profs who spend more time doing research than reviewing undergraduate topics make mistakes in class, get things wrong (I don't correct them in class - no point in showing up the prof)

  • Professors evaluate you unfairly for multiple reasons:
    • We had a professor start giving quizzes on material he taught the same day in class - I explained to him that this was unfair and unreasonable and he stopped doing it.
    • We had a professor give us lab tests that had nothing to do with the labs - they were just concepts he thought were important. There was thus no way to study for them. I wrote him a detailed letter explaining why this wasn't fair - and he responded by giving an extra credit assignment to make up for it.
    • I have had professors forget to give me points on exams - after pointing out their mistake they correct them.
    • I've had professors test on concepts they specifically said they would not - then I had to go to their office and argue for the points.
    • I've had professors ask questions that were so ambiguous as to be unanswerable - I was a philosophy undergrad so I know how to read, and to argue - so I point out the ambiguity to them and get points on questions I missed.
In almost all cases when I argue for points I win - I'm protecting my GPA.

However I am starting to worry that no matter how polite I am, I will develop a reputation for being a student who antagonizes faculty, who "shows them up" - and that politically, in the long run, it may be better to get a 3.8 than a 4.0 and take an un-fair A- or two along the way, if it means that I can be that happy guy who is buddy buddy with my faculty instead of the guy who doesn't let them get away with any **** or f*ck over their students.

Thoughts?
 
I doubt you are pissing them off. You don't really have any power over your professors, so if you are getting what you want from them it means they probably think you were right to come to them. If they thought you were just being a pest, I doubt they would have given you anything.
 
@premedgunner: That's offensive, man.

Yeah, I don't think you should be worried. As the above poster said, if they fixed the problem, chances are they thought you were right in the first place.
I think as long as you don't sound like a prick in tone, they won't take it like you're a prick. The way you phrase your critique can go a long way.
 
V5RED said:
I doubt you are pissing them off. You don't really have any power over your professors, so if you are getting what you want from them it means they probably think you were right to come to them. If they thought you were just being a pest, I doubt they would have given you anything.
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👍👍👍
 
Honestly, your post comes off a bit haughty to me.

calimeds said:
Has anyone else experienced this phenomena? You grow up and develop disciplined study habits - resulting in true mastery of whatever you're being taught.

Once you achieve topic mastery you realize that faculty are far from perfect:

  • Lazy profs who spend more time doing research than reviewing undergraduate topics make mistakes in class, get things wrong (I don't correct them in class - no point in showing up the prof)
First of all...."LAZY?!" ...These people are experts in one area and often teaching in another (esp. at the UG level). That is bound to result in some incorrect assumptions on their part.
  • Professors evaluate you unfairly for multiple reasons:
    • We had a professor start giving quizzes on material he taught the same day in class - I explained to him that this was unfair and unreasonable and he stopped doing it. Why is this "unreasonable"? So he taught it and then quizzed you on how well you retained what he taught. This actually sounds like a GOOD idea since it forces you to learn the topic right the first time. It gives immediate feedback.
    • We had a professor give us lab tests that had nothing to do with the labs - they were just concepts he thought were important. There was thus no way to study for them. I wrote him a detailed letter explaining why this wasn't fair - and he responded by giving an extra credit assignment to make up for it. Not that uncommon, dude. Lab instructors do this all the time. I'm not saying I like it, but the fact is it's not uncommon.
    • I have had professors forget to give me points on exams - after pointing out their mistake they correct them.
    • I've had professors test on concepts they specifically said they would not - then I had to go to their office and argue for the points.
    • I've had professors ask questions that were so ambiguous as to be unanswerable - I was a philosophy undergrad so I know how to read, and to argue - so I point out the ambiguity to them and get points on questions I missed.
In almost all cases when I argue for points I win - I'm protecting my GPA.

However I am starting to worry that no matter how polite I am, I will develop a reputation for being a student who antagonizes faculty, who "shows them up" - and that politically, in the long run, it may be better to get a 3.8 than a 4.0 and take an un-fair A- or two along the way, if it means that I can be that happy guy who is buddy buddy with my faculty instead of the guy who doesn't let them get away with any **** or f*ck over their students.

Thoughts?
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A lot has to do with how you come off. Students who do what you are describing definitely lose the benefit of the doubt in my gradebook, but this probably depends on the instructor. I probably wouldn't give you my blessing if asked by my supervising professor about writing you a letter after having taken my lab and her lecture. I certainly give back points and don't hold a grudge for it, but students who constantly complain about how I am running the class reveal their lack of flexibility. They come off as rigid and difficult to work with and they can expect their evaluations to reflect that.




V5RED said:
I doubt you are pissing them off. You don't really have any power over your professors, so if you are getting what you want from them it means they probably think you were right to come to them. If they thought you were just being a pest, I doubt they would have given you anything.
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On the contrary, it's often easier to simply appease the pest and hope he'll just leave you alone than to refuse him and tell him to go away (because usually they don't). No sense bringing in Administration unnecessarily and no one is likely to complain just because the OP was given a favor. What I do to even things out is ensure the grade grubbing students never get any "grace" points. In essence, I force them to come and grub back the very points I let their peers have for free. It keeps things fair while still appeasing the whiner.
 
imho, it is not a good idea to get on a bad side with ur prof since they determine ur grade letters...say if you know the prof pretty well and you are borderline between an A and B, he will prolly give u the A, make a big difference. About asking for grades, it really matter how you do it and how often you do it. It is very rare and unliekly that they would grade your paper incorrectly by a large amount of point. Missing out on 1 or 2 points on a test is no big deal, it prolly wont affect your final scores... getting on a bad side of your prof and getting a B is another matter.
Maybe ur school is just different than mine.
 
The OP reeks of stereotypical pre-med behavior. It's pretty damn bold to call a professor "lazy" and "unfair" when it's quite clear to me that you're one of those people every TA and professor hates to deal with. You're likely in their faces at all times scrounging for points when you could've avoided those situations entirely by spending all that effort you wasted going to see them and wielding your mighty philosophy experience by learning the material properly in the first place. Achieving topic mastery? Please. If that were the case, those conceptual questions you bemoan would be a cinch. I'm not saying there aren't bad professors or that good professors don't make mistakes, but given the circumstances, I'd bet my house you're the one who needs to shape up. Grow some humility, and realize that your almost-degree in biology doesn't trump the knowledge and experience of someone who has been in the field you're studying for years.
 
oh man, while I agree that some of that stuff is somewhat unfair, I wouldn't call out the prof unless it was something major that'll significantly impact my grades. A ten point differential on a test worth 30% of final grade? I'd totally be on that. But a lab quiz that may be worth almost nothing? I'd let it slide.

The thing is that this sort of stuff happens in medical training all the time. When you are in clinical rotations, intern year, residency, even fellowship, you'll get pimped and have your ego brutalized all the time. It's a very hierarchical world, and people don't like it when you buck the convention.

A good read on the topic would be The Art of Pimping in JAMA by Brancati, FL. (http://www.ente-pimp.com/pimping.pdf)
 
OP don't be "that guy". If your professor/TA really did make a mistake and you approach them respectfully, they will not have a problem giving you the points back. As far as them testing on things they said they wouldn't or giving you quizzes on material you just learned, if it was mentioned in class just assume it is fair game. Just relax about the 4.0 thing and go with the flow. If there was a mistake on something major that will really affect your grade, then yes bring it up. As great as a 4.0 is, and I truly admire people that can do it all 4 years, I think it is far more luck than it is intelligence (not trying to open a can of worms). I recieved a 4.0 my first few semesters and was starting to become so anal about it, it was a actually a huge relief to finally not get an A in a class. I graduated with "just" a 3.8 and am probably far more happier than if I tried hanging on to a 4.0 for so long. Just my 2cents.
 
music2doc said:
On the contrary, it's often easier to simply appease the pest and hope he'll just leave you alone than to refuse him and tell him to go away (because usually they don't). No sense bringing in Administration unnecessarily and no one is likely to complain just because the OP was given a favor. What I do to even things out is ensure the grade grubbing students never get any "grace" points. In essence, I force them to come and grub back the very points I let their peers have for free. It keeps things fair while still appeasing the whiner.
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That sounds rather cowardly and deceitful.
 
I usually gauge it professor to professor. Freshman year I had one that straight up told the class not to bother him with corrections unless it was 10 points or more on an exam because "it wouldn't make a difference" so I never challenged my grade. This past year another professor was willing to give back points on almost any error as long as you could reason your answer, which did (surprise!) make a difference on my final grade. My point is don't sweat the small stuff and develop good relationships with the faculty at your university and then none of this becomes an issue. I've also found it works best to talk to the professors in private, no one likes being called out in front of the entire class.
 
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tkim said:
Some of these science professors will also be writing LORs, yes? Great grades, potentially bad LOR if you rub them the wrong way while grade grubbing. Hmmmm.
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No professor is going to want to write you an LOR if you're a pest. It's that simple.
 
Issue is simple: Think about how this will help you provide care for your patients. To be honest, grade grubbing and having bitterness for your profs isn't helping.
 
You, my friend, have enormous....huge....entitlement issues.
 
This is why when I grade I make sure to write down why I'm taking off points on the page in question (which takes a bit longer) and am diligent about making sure I'm consistent with my grading across the board. I also make my expectations about the class clear on the very first day. This eliminates 99.99% of the grade grubbing I saw in other sections and if the student doesn't agree with my class layout then go find another section.

Having your students catch you on the deadlift platform at the old school boxing gym with a bunch of strongman guys is also a bonus. :meanie: :meanie: :meanie:
 
Use common sense. You know which errors will truly affect your grade and which can be overlooked. You don't want to sound whiny. Also, make sure the professors know you for more than your grade complaints.
 
MilkmanAl said:
The OP reeks of stereotypical pre-med behavior. It's pretty damn bold to call a professor "lazy" and "unfair" when it's quite clear to me that you're one of those people every TA and professor hates to deal with. You're likely in their faces at all times scrounging for points when you could've avoided those situations entirely by spending all that effort you wasted going to see them and wielding your mighty philosophy experience by learning the material properly in the first place. Achieving topic mastery? Please. If that were the case, those conceptual questions you bemoan would be a cinch. I'm not saying there aren't bad professors or that good professors don't make mistakes, but given the circumstances, I'd bet my house you're the one who needs to shape up. Grow some humility, and realize that your almost-degree in biology doesn't trump the knowledge and experience of someone who has been in the field you're studying for years.
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👍👍👍
 
To the OP, yes I know what you are talking about and I have heard it many times before. I for one have been on that end of the stick before.

Wow, the lack of help in this forum, sometimes, amazes me. Most of these people posting are the "tools" - as someone else has stated.

Don't worry. Just keep doing what your doing, get yours A's - just don't piss off any professors in the meantime. Your just too worried about either keeping your GPA where it's at, or making up lost ground for past bad grades. I've found that if your really studying the material, you would have made your A's whether or not your pestered them about various things that you think are important. Your just too overzealous at the moment, but it should pass as you see your hard-work pay off and you'll realize that the one or two extra points you had to scrape to get would not have mattered.

As long as the professors see you really care about your grade and know your stuff, you should be fine. Yes, it's better to be safe than sorry, but chances are if you are really "mastering" the material, your already "safe".

Good luck,
nix
 
music2doc said:
Why is this "unreasonable"? So he taught it and then quizzed you on how well you retained what he taught. This actually sounds like a GOOD idea since it forces you to learn the topic right the first time. It gives immediate feedback.
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Maybe he's a sh-tty teacher, and he has no right to be quizzing you on things he can't teach until you at least have a chance to review it on your own?

There's a reason our med school exams didn't cover material taught that same day.
 
V5RED said:
That sounds rather cowardly and deceitful.
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Not really. I'm pretty upfront about it. I've only had a couple of students place themselves in that category in all of the classes I've taught/TA'd. Each time, I have pulled the offending student aside and let him/her know the issue. If (often when) it keeps happening, I grade more harshly, knowing s/he will come back and try to grub back all those points anyway (regardless of whether I grade kindly or harshly). I inform students of this every semester I teach. And every semester I have about 98% of my students "get it" and be very cooperative and helpful and about 2% need some one-on-one coaching. Honestly, it's how the world works. Your behavior determines how people will evaluate you. Would you ever go to your boss after getting a mediocre performance eval and try to "grub" some points back on it?! :laugh:




TheProwler said:
Maybe he's a sh-tty teacher, and he has no right to be quizzing you on things he can't teach until you at least have a chance to review it on your own?

There's a reason our med school exams didn't cover material taught that same day.
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True, it's possible, although my experience has been that most professors that students believe are "sh*tty teachers" aren't so much poor teachers as ones who teach in a way different from that which the individual student prefers or expects. Nevertheless, even if this professor were a poor teacher, my guess would be those quizzes probably don't make up a significant part of the grade. At the end of the day a 75% average on a set of pop quizzes worth a total of 10% in the class only drops you 2.5%. If you had a solid grade otherwise, that's not going to hurt you at all. (Oh no! My 98% is now a 95.5%... oh wait...still an A.) This is also what Rate-My-Professor and MyEDU are for.... Get professors whose teaching style matches your learning style.
 
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calimeds said:
Has anyone else experienced this phenomena? You grow up and develop disciplined study habits - resulting in true mastery of whatever you're being taught.

Once you achieve topic mastery you realize that faculty are far from perfect:

  • Lazy profs who spend more time doing research than reviewing undergraduate topics make mistakes in class, get things wrong (I don't correct them in class - no point in showing up the prof)

  • Professors evaluate you unfairly for multiple reasons:
    • We had a professor start giving quizzes on material he taught the same day in class - I explained to him that this was unfair and unreasonable and he stopped doing it.
    • We had a professor give us lab tests that had nothing to do with the labs - they were just concepts he thought were important. There was thus no way to study for them. I wrote him a detailed letter explaining why this wasn't fair - and he responded by giving an extra credit assignment to make up for it.
    • I have had professors forget to give me points on exams - after pointing out their mistake they correct them.
    • I've had professors test on concepts they specifically said they would not - then I had to go to their office and argue for the points.
    • I've had professors ask questions that were so ambiguous as to be unanswerable - I was a philosophy undergrad so I know how to read, and to argue - so I point out the ambiguity to them and get points on questions I missed.
In almost all cases when I argue for points I win - I'm protecting my GPA.

However I am starting to worry that no matter how polite I am, I will develop a reputation for being a student who antagonizes faculty, who "shows them up" - and that politically, in the long run, it may be better to get a 3.8 than a 4.0 and take an un-fair A- or two along the way, if it means that I can be that happy guy who is buddy buddy with my faculty instead of the guy who doesn't let them get away with any **** or f*ck over their students.

Thoughts?
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Have you ever thought about law school?
 
No, keep doing what you're doing. I've had this one professor for a year now who clearly does not do the readings he assigns. Because it's a philosophy class, I frequently have to correct him on arguments or remind him who said what. Even better, sometimes when I bring up a highly relevant and important point from the reading, he just stares at me blankly. Sigh.

Keep correcting them, as long as you're not that douchebag who argues for no reason. If it's relevant to your or others' understanding of the material, keep it up. Nothing pisses me off like professors who don't care. 👎
 
I think its a bit rude to call someone probably decades your senior, with a PhD,lazy. Heck we have had same day quizzes on material that was introduced earlier that same day, and Im in high school.Get over it.
 
Wow, this forum is getting pretty disgusting. There are at least 3 comments making fun of the OP and calling him a tool, you people need lives. If you're not going to help him, don't read his question. There's no point in reading then calling him a tool. As for the OP, keep doing what you're doing but always be respectful.
 
Noam Chomsky said:
Wow, this forum is getting pretty disgusting. There are at least 3 comments making fun of the OP and calling him a tool, you people need lives. If you're not going to help him, don't read his question. There's no point in reading then calling him a tool. As for the OP, keep doing what you're doing but always be respectful.
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op sounds really lame. professors are people too, they make mistakes once in a while. there's nothing wrong with what he is doing but his attitude is not great, don't expect sympathy for that.
 
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Personally I think in this case the problem is YOUR attitude. Professors don't do the things that you said. If a professor gave quizzes on material not covered yet, wouldn't everyone fail? And then he would wonder why everyone failed and realize he had made a mistake. Your attitude is why premeds get this pushy, arrogant, annoying stereotype. Your professors probably hate you. Take responsibility for your own grades like everyone else. So to answer the question- YOU CAN GET A's WITHOUT antagonizing your profs- just earn it. I've been in school 3 years and only once has a prof made a mistake in grading- which temporarily cost me an A in the class. I politely requested a re-grade, and the problem was resolved, there had been an 8 point error which cost me the A. My point is that this stuff doesn't happen often, and when it does, you won't get anywhere with your attitude.
 
kexy said:
No, keep doing what you're doing. I've had this one professor for a year now who clearly does not do the readings he assigns. Because it's a philosophy class, I frequently have to correct him on arguments or remind him who said what. Even better, sometimes when I bring up a highly relevant and important point from the reading, he just stares at me blankly. Sigh.

Keep correcting them, as long as you're not that douchebag who argues for no reason. If it's relevant to your or others' understanding of the material, keep it up. Nothing pisses me off like professors who don't care. 👎
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Think of the last time you stared at someone blankly. You were probably thinking "I know I'm right, and this jerk wants to challenge me". News for ya- he probably was right, and even if he wasn't, he's the professor, ad correct or not, you learn what he says. Period.
 
music2doc said:
True, it's possible, although my experience has been that most professors that students believe are "sh*tty teachers" aren't so much poor teachers as ones who teach in a way different from that which the individual student prefers or expects. Nevertheless, even if this professor were a poor teacher, my guess would be those quizzes probably don't make up a significant part of the grade. At the end of the day a 75% average on a set of pop quizzes worth a total of 10% in the class only drops you 2.5%. If you had a solid grade otherwise, that's not going to hurt you at all. (Oh no! My 98% is now a 95.5%... oh wait...still an A.) This is also what Rate-My-Professor and MyEDU are for.... Get professors whose teaching style matches your learning style.
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That's absurd logic. What if you have a solid grade of 92% and go down to 89.5? 🙄
 
I've been teaching at the college level for about four years now. Observations:

1) For visiting through full professors, teaching is the least important thing they can do. It interferes with the real money-making, interesting part of their jobs: research and writing books. For adjuncts, the teaching is all they do, but they have to teach 4+ classes a semester to make a decent wage. The average adjunct, even with a PhD, can make as little as 2.5K a class. It's pretty awful.

In other words, yeah, most of them don't want to be there any more than you do. Those who do want to be there don't usually have the time to do a fantastic job. You don't like it? Find a completely non-research university.

2) Forgetting things? Being scatterbrained? Teachers can have several hundred students and get twenty+ emails a day. We need reminders because there's so much going on. If five people asked for grade changes, but only do it verbally, we won't remember all five. That's how things work. Keep reminding the prof once a week. We don't mind.

3) Arguing points back on a test is acceptable. In many cases, I get an answer that is conceptually correct but factually off-base. I have an answer I'm looking for but that you, the student, didn't give me. I need your argument to prove you know the material and have taken a different approach rather than blindly guessing based on a razor-thin understanding of the material. It all depends on how you do it. If you write a well-reasoned, occasionally cited, rebuttal to a point, I'll be much more likely to address it than if you come and whine about the unfair test.

4) As the professor, I get to say what is and is not acceptable test material. I tell students that if I talk about it, it's fair game. It's more appropriate to test topics we spend more time on, but that's not always how it goes. If I think I should test concepts instead of specifics, too bad; you should figure out the concepts as you do the techniques. In medicine, you're not going to be allowed to just forget things that are rare; school should prep you for that.

5) As for "not getting away with ****" or "f*cking over students", I invite you to try and teach an introductory or intermediate science class. The level of stupidity exhibited by the average student is astounding. I give a question that spans two pages. I verbally warn students to fill out both parts. I have a bolded reminder at the bottom of page one. 1/3 of the students forgot to do page 2. I administer a test question in three different ways during class and homework. People still lose points.

We're not f*cking over students when we hand out bad grades or have a low crap tolerance. We are correctly responding to an atmosphere of failure and persistently low achievement. It's very hard to stay positive and helpful when you're bombarded by completely unwarranted entitlement. When you're punished by your department for being strict on cheating or teaching difficult content, what do you think results?
 
Yes OP you should think about the big picture. You are gonna need some LORs in the future and if your professors remember you as being that guy that fought them tooth and nail over every single point.. they might not be inclined to write you an evaluation.
 
TheProwler said:
Yes, they do.
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I stand by what I said. Maybe this kind of thing happens without the prof being aware that they quizzed on uncovered material, test on material they said they wouldn't, etc., but things like this are almost invariably remedied by a student like the OP. 😴
 
If you are this anal about professors now, I wish you the best of luck during clinical clerkships (if you make it to med school). Grades and Scores matter but in medicine, who you know and who likes you matters 20x over. Third year evaluations are 75% about how well the people that write your evaluations like you.

Trust me, for a future in medicine, you'll want to be the eager, humble kid that's willing to learn from his superiors. Not the dude that nags everyone about points or your sense of entitlement to a better evaluation.
 
BrainOnFire said:
I've been teaching at the college level for about four years now. Observations:

1) For visiting through full professors, teaching is the least important thing they can do. It interferes with the real money-making, interesting part of their jobs: research and writing books. For adjuncts, the teaching is all they do, but they have to teach 4+ classes a semester to make a decent wage. The average adjunct, even with a PhD, can make as little as 2.5K a class. It's pretty awful.

In other words, yeah, most of them don't want to be there any more than you do. Those who do want to be there don't usually have the time to do a fantastic job. You don't like it? Find a completely non-research university.

2) Forgetting things? Being scatterbrained? Teachers can have several hundred students and get twenty+ emails a day. We need reminders because there's so much going on. If five people asked for grade changes, but only do it verbally, we won't remember all five. That's how things work. Keep reminding the prof once a week. We don't mind.

3) Arguing points back on a test is acceptable. In many cases, I get an answer that is conceptually correct but factually off-base. I have an answer I'm looking for but that you, the student, didn't give me. I need your argument to prove you know the material and have taken a different approach rather than blindly guessing based on a razor-thin understanding of the material. It all depends on how you do it. If you write a well-reasoned, occasionally cited, rebuttal to a point, I'll be much more likely to address it than if you come and whine about the unfair test.

4) As the professor, I get to say what is and is not acceptable test material. I tell students that if I talk about it, it's fair game. It's more appropriate to test topics we spend more time on, but that's not always how it goes. If I think I should test concepts instead of specifics, too bad; you should figure out the concepts as you do the techniques. In medicine, you're not going to be allowed to just forget things that are rare; school should prep you for that.

5) As for "not getting away with ****" or "f*cking over students", I invite you to try and teach an introductory or intermediate science class. The level of stupidity exhibited by the average student is astounding. I give a question that spans two pages. I verbally warn students to fill out both parts. I have a bolded reminder at the bottom of page one. 1/3 of the students forgot to do page 2. I administer a test question in three different ways during class and homework. People still lose points.

We're not f*cking over students when we hand out bad grades or have a low crap tolerance. We are correctly responding to an atmosphere of failure and persistently low achievement. It's very hard to stay positive and helpful when you're bombarded by completely unwarranted entitlement. When you're punished by your department for being strict on cheating or teaching difficult content, what do you think results?
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Well said. I have watched this dynamic between professor and student go on for two years now and can already feel your pain. I would say the entitlement is what drives it all. I often sit flabbergasted at some peoples reaction after exams. I keep in mind that there is ALWAYS a student who gets an A without being petty. Instead that person is simply prepared.
 
the lack of self awareness in this thread is absolutely astonishing.
 
studmuffin said:
Think of the last time you stared at someone blankly. You were probably thinking "I know I'm right, and this jerk wants to challenge me". News for ya- he probably was right, and even if he wasn't, he's the professor, ad correct or not, you learn what he says. Period.
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Haha... no.
 
This is the part where you realize that this thread is really about someone complaining about a potential 3.8. You should stop responding now.
 
TheProwler said:
That's absurd logic. What if you have a solid grade of 92% and go down to 89.5? 🙄
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That's not a solid A. That's a barely A. Those quizzes should still count against you. You performed more weakly than others in the class. You didn't do well. It should hurt you but if you're extremely solid otherwise, the loss of points won't hurt all that much.....
 
I don't think I've ever asked for points back on an exam, but I guess I just assume that unless it's an actual math error or clear grading mistake (like the prof accidentally marked me off for a multiple choice that was obviously the correct answer) the professor has a better idea of what is correct than I do. I majored in political science and minored in philosophy, where pretty much everything you turn in is graded subjectively, and I've still never thought a professor was being unreasonable. They have a PhD for a reason.

That said, I don't think it's wrong to ask for points back if you honestly believe that you answered the question correctly. The key is approaching the topic in the appropriate manner. Instead of going to the professor and saying, "You graded this wrong, I deserve points back," go to him/her and say, "I'm trying to understand why my answer was wrong. Here's how I understood the concept and here's why I answered the question this way." I think most professors will be a lot more willing to give points back if you can articulate politely and rationally why you feel that you answered a question correctly. If they decide to give you points back, awesome! Thank your professor for the discussion. If they don't, thank them anyway and tell them that you will work on understanding the concept as they have explained it. Either way, your professor will likely think better of you for approaching the points issue as a learning experience as opposed to gunning for a good grade.
 
This type of entitled mindset is not going to fly in med school. I don't know your specific circumstances, but what I'm hearing is a lot of finger pointing and blame. If you get a question wrong but other people get it right, regardless of wording, you should ask yourself how you can improve.
 
calimeds said:
Has anyone else experienced this phenomena? You grow up and develop disciplined study habits - resulting in true mastery of whatever you're being taught.

Once you achieve topic mastery you realize that faculty are far from perfect:

Thoughts?
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Yes, studying hard for a class means true mastery of what you are being taught. I'm sure gunning your way to the top of the organic chemistry curve makes you an expert that knows more than your professors.

Just wait until you start medical school.

Btw, quizzing you on things that are covered in lecture that day is a way of making sure that you are paying attention and picking up on what the professor wants you to pick up on. It will happen in medical school, and most medical school professors will not put up with your bull****.
 
BrainOnFire said:
I've been teaching at the college level for about four years now. Observations:

1) For visiting through full professors, teaching is the least important thing they can do. It interferes with the real money-making, interesting part of their jobs: research and writing books. For adjuncts, the teaching is all they do, but they have to teach 4+ classes a semester to make a decent wage. The average adjunct, even with a PhD, can make as little as 2.5K a class. It's pretty awful.

In other words, yeah, most of them don't want to be there any more than you do. Those who do want to be there don't usually have the time to do a fantastic job. You don't like it? Find a completely non-research university.

2) Forgetting things? Being scatterbrained? Teachers can have several hundred students and get twenty+ emails a day. We need reminders because there's so much going on. If five people asked for grade changes, but only do it verbally, we won't remember all five. That's how things work. Keep reminding the prof once a week. We don't mind.

3) Arguing points back on a test is acceptable. In many cases, I get an answer that is conceptually correct but factually off-base. I have an answer I'm looking for but that you, the student, didn't give me. I need your argument to prove you know the material and have taken a different approach rather than blindly guessing based on a razor-thin understanding of the material. It all depends on how you do it. If you write a well-reasoned, occasionally cited, rebuttal to a point, I'll be much more likely to address it than if you come and whine about the unfair test.

4) As the professor, I get to say what is and is not acceptable test material. I tell students that if I talk about it, it's fair game. It's more appropriate to test topics we spend more time on, but that's not always how it goes. If I think I should test concepts instead of specifics, too bad; you should figure out the concepts as you do the techniques. In medicine, you're not going to be allowed to just forget things that are rare; school should prep you for that.

5) As for "not getting away with ****" or "f*cking over students", I invite you to try and teach an introductory or intermediate science class. The level of stupidity exhibited by the average student is astounding. I give a question that spans two pages. I verbally warn students to fill out both parts. I have a bolded reminder at the bottom of page one. 1/3 of the students forgot to do page 2. I administer a test question in three different ways during class and homework. People still lose points.

We're not f*cking over students when we hand out bad grades or have a low crap tolerance. We are correctly responding to an atmosphere of failure and persistently low achievement. It's very hard to stay positive and helpful when you're bombarded by completely unwarranted entitlement. When you're punished by your department for being strict on cheating or teaching difficult content, what do you think results?
Click to expand...

Wow you summed up everything! I agree to this as well. In my university, teaching mattered very little to the science faculty. I learned during my masters that when the professor is up for tenure his or her research credentials has more weight than teaching. So it is very low on the priority list (kind of pisses me off).

Being a TA for labs I can attest to having student who really don't follow directions and get upset when I make a small mistake. I was in charge of 40 students when I was a biology lab TA. Because of the recession the labs were doubled up (I had another TA with me), so at times I had to deal with 80 students! Some of my TA colleagues had to go on conference trips and so I had to organize their students while they were away. I was not doing the easy stuff like grading tests 3 times within the semester. My work included grading full reports, quizzes, and even the tests as well. Students, even the smart ones, can take advantage.
 
As long as they're not writing you LORs, I'm all for it. The different between an A and B can jeopardize your entire career. We're taught from day 1 that the most important thing that med schools look at is your GPA and MCAT score. If the prof goofs resulting in you losing points, hell yea why shouldn't you do all you can to argue for those points. Your future basically depends on these grades
 
Dont freak out about a B. One B will not determine your entire future, regardless of what anyone here says. People even get into very good medical schools with a gasp C! (personal friend, cs in both orgos and still going to georgetown) Obviously you have to do as well as you possibly can to put yourself in the best possible position, but if you give yourself a nervous breakdown on the way up you arent doing anyone a favor. Dont stress out so much, and you will be perfectly fine.
 
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