Strategy for 3rd cycle

[shambho]

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[Mr.Smile12]

Hi all,

I've just about finished my secondaries and want to strategize to make my third cycle my last.

This is my app for this cycle:

• cGPA and sGPA as calculated by AMCAS or AACOMAS: cGPA 3.67 (3.17, 3.52, 3.90, 3.93), sGPA 3.57 (3.02, 3.25, 3.91, 3.87)
• MCAT score(s) and breakdown: 514 (128, 128, 128, 130), retake: 523 (129, 130, 132, 132)
• State of residence or country of citizenship (if non-US): CA
• Ethnicity and/or race: ORM
• Undergraduate institution or category: T20 (or maybe just outside)
• Clinical experience (volunteer and non-volunteer): 1000 hours Clinical Research Assistant (cardiac surgery patients), 36 hours hospital volunteering
• Research experience and productivity: 3000 hours Clinical Research Assistant, ~600 hours in other labs, a couple of pubs, posters etc.
• Shadowing experience and specialties represented: 48 hours split between Primary Care, Neurology and Anesthesiology, 6 hours virtual
• Non-clinical volunteering: 250 hours food pantry, 60 hours tutoring through computer science club (going to a local high school), 70 hours tutoring children, 36 hours mentoring immigrant children
• Other extracurricular activities (including athletics, military service, gap year activities, leadership, teaching, etc): ~300 hours physics tutoring at university (paid), ~ 150 hours creating and running a club on campus close to my research interests, ~250 hours in a public health club working with an underserved population in Nepal. Have been training in Muay Thai and Jiu Jitsu. I also speak a few languages other than English (minored in one of them), but not fluently
• Relevant honors or awards: Departmental Research Award from hospital
• Anything else not listed you think might be important: CASPER 4th quartile, Preview 7/9. Recommendation letters are from 2 science professors (one of whom taught me in an undergrad course and a graduate level course), 1 humanities professor, and PI and mentor from current lab

Cycle timings:
2023 - complete at 10 schools September/October
2024 (current) - complete at 35 schools early August to late September (30 schools in September)

I'm beating myself up a lot, and I don't think I have the money or energy to apply for a fourth cycle. For the 2025 cycle, it looks like my April 2022 MCAT will still be viable. I graduated in Dec 2020, so I took my prereqs from 2016 onwards. I will have to research if my prereqs have expired.

A couple of questions:

1) I want to take an unpaid leave of absence at my job (PI seems OK with it) from April to July and finish my secondaries by the first week of July. I can try to do Scribeamerica since all of my clinical experience is in the research setting. Would it be better to leave my job by February of 2024, and try to snag a part-time scribe job while I write my applications from April to July? Or is it alright if I try to get a scribing job after I've submitted my secondaries (and write in my secondaries that I'm currently looking for a job?)

The former would get me some hours and experiences to add to my app, but the latter would allow me to focus only on my app. Alternatively, If I keep my research job, I'll have 5000 research hours and 1000 clinical hours. Bad idea? This would probably be the best option, because I won't have to move, job search, and can finish up a project that I have created.

2) I want to add at least 10 DO schools. I will do my own research, but do you have any suggestions, given my profile, etc.? I will write my DO applications after MD, and finish them by the end of August. I believe the DO cycle runs later, so this is fine, timing-wise. I will try to shadow a DO as well.

Thank you again for your help. I'm grateful for the opportunity to connect with experts here free of cost.

Your success depends on your school list, and you haven't told us where you applied or your mission fit. If your are serious about this, you need to apply to DO schools. The way to avoid becoming a reapp for 2025 is to make sure you include DO schools for 2024.

It's too early to panic. You could get an II tomorrow. You could get one in March. But why do you think your application is being passed over?

 

[wysdoc]

I think it's too early to give up on this cycle and assume you will need another one.
Have you received any interview invitations? Many schools are just starting to send them out.

If you did need to reapply again:
Prereq classes don't expire so rapidly like MCAT scores do, you would not need to retake anything.
Some schools will look at your application twice but not a third time. You would have to research which ones they are. USC Keck is one example.
Last of all, if you did end up needing one more cycle, get that clinical job, scribe or whatever, well before you submit your application so that the hours are in your application, because future hours are not given weight.

 

[shambho]

Hi Mr. Smile,

Thank you again for helping me and others here. I applied to these schools:

UCI
UCSD
UCLA
UCSF
Keck
Stanford
Mayo
Kaiser
Hofstra
Einstein
Rochester
U Colorado
BU
Brown
Emory
Ohio State
Cincinnati
Case
Vermont
USF
Miami
UVA
Iowa
Vanderbilt
WUSTL
Stony Brook
Western Michigan
SLU
Jefferson
Pittsburgh
Dartmouth

This school list may be too top-heavy, and If I do have to reapply, I'd like to include more lower-tier MDs and DO schools.

Regarding mission fit, I envision a career as a neurologist, working with older folk and researching neurodegenerative diseases. Some of my research has been in this area, and even outside of work, I enjoy spending time with older people. I was all set to start teaching ESL to elderly Chinese immigrants before COVID-19 hit, and then I moved from California to Boston. I still pay taxes as a California resident and am domiciled in California, so I consider myself a CA applicant. I realize this doesn't mean I'll be a CA resident for school tuition purposes. I'd also like to continue working with immigrants (which can happen in any specialty), and I'm open to anesthesiology, radiology, etc. I am also interested in publishing essays on medical ethics and could get a masters in the same field.

I will definitely add DO schools next cycle, but I haven't shadowed a DO for this cycle, and I don't know much about osteopathy either. I think it would be better to apply earlier next cycle so I can better articulate my case for becoming one instead of risking being a reapplicant at DO schools as well.

If there are no takers next cycle, even having applied early and to DO schools, then I'll have to give up on medicine. Maybe I'll become a monk.

I think last cycle I 1) was complete too late and 2) didn't have non-clinical volunteering. I also applied to schools like Harvard and Yale, and with my GPAs, it's a non-starter at these schools.

If things don't work out this cycle, it is likely my timing, my lower GPAs, and maybe my writing. I did get my writing reviewed by many people, and they said I was good to go. I would be surprised if there were a red flag in my LORs.

 

[LindaAccepted]

Hi all,

I've just about finished my secondaries and want to strategize to make my third cycle my last.

This is my app for this cycle:

• cGPA and sGPA as calculated by AMCAS or AACOMAS: cGPA 3.67 (3.17, 3.52, 3.90, 3.93), sGPA 3.57 (3.02, 3.25, 3.91, 3.87)
• MCAT score(s) and breakdown: 514 (128, 128, 128, 130), retake: 523 (129, 130, 132, 132)
• State of residence or country of citizenship (if non-US): CA
• Ethnicity and/or race: ORM
• Undergraduate institution or category: T20 (or maybe just outside)
• Clinical experience (volunteer and non-volunteer): 1000 hours Clinical Research Assistant (cardiac surgery patients), 36 hours hospital volunteering
• Research experience and productivity: 3000 hours Clinical Research Assistant, ~600 hours in other labs, a couple of pubs, posters etc.
• Shadowing experience and specialties represented: 48 hours split between Primary Care, Neurology and Anesthesiology, 6 hours virtual
• Non-clinical volunteering: 250 hours food pantry, 60 hours tutoring through computer science club (going to a local high school), 70 hours tutoring children, 36 hours mentoring immigrant children
• Other extracurricular activities (including athletics, military service, gap year activities, leadership, teaching, etc): ~300 hours physics tutoring at university (paid), ~ 150 hours creating and running a club on campus close to my research interests, ~250 hours in a public health club working with an underserved population in Nepal. Have been training in Muay Thai and Jiu Jitsu. I also speak a few languages other than English (minored in one of them), but not fluently
• Relevant honors or awards: Departmental Research Award from hospital
• Anything else not listed you think might be important: CASPER 4th quartile, Preview 7/9. Recommendation letters are from 2 science professors (one of whom taught me in an undergrad course and a graduate level course), 1 humanities professor, and PI and mentor from current lab

Cycle timings:
2023 - complete at 10 schools September/October
2024 (current) - complete at 35 schools early August to late September (30 schools in September)

I'm beating myself up a lot, and I don't think I have the money or energy to apply for a fourth cycle. For the 2025 cycle, it looks like my April 2022 MCAT will still be viable. I graduated in Dec 2020, so I took my prereqs from 2016 onwards. I will have to research if my prereqs have expired.

A couple of questions:

1) I want to take an unpaid leave of absence at my job (PI seems OK with it) from April to July and finish my secondaries by the first week of July. I can try to do Scribeamerica since all of my clinical experience is in the research setting. Would it be better to leave my job by February of 2024, and try to snag a part-time scribe job while I write my applications from April to July? Or is it alright if I try to get a scribing job after I've submitted my secondaries (and write in my secondaries that I'm currently looking for a job?)

The former would get me some hours and experiences to add to my app, but the latter would allow me to focus only on my app. Alternatively, If I keep my research job, I'll have 5000 research hours and 1000 clinical hours. Bad idea? This would probably be the best option, because I won't have to move, job search, and can finish up a project that I have created.

2) I want to add at least 10 DO schools. I will do my own research, but do you have any suggestions, given my profile, etc.? I will write my DO applications after MD, and finish them by the end of August. I believe the DO cycle runs later, so this is fine, timing-wise. I will try to shadow a DO as well.

Thank you again for your help. I'm grateful for the opportunity to connect with experts here free of cost.

I agree with the advice that you shouldn't give up yet on this cycle and also admire you for preparing for a reapplication in the event of a rejection.

I do believe that a few of the schools you applied to were mistakes (Stanford, Mayo, KP, UCSF for example) in some cases because I think your GPA would probably be a big hurdle and in others (KP for example) where I think there's a lack of mission fit.


You are assuming that lack of clinical exposure is what may sink your app this cycle. I'm not so sure, but I do think that getting the scribe job BEFORE you apply would add perspective to you and support your argument that you want to be a clinician. Getting the scribe job after you submit secondaries will have little impact.

Getting accepted requires that you both have the qualifications for medical school and that you present those qualifications effectively via the primary and secondary applications and the interview. Have you connected your interest in a specific program to your past and your goals in your secondaries? Does your primary make a compelling case for why you want to be a physician? Are you demonstrating communications skills and attention to detail in both?

Basically, if you are not presenting your qualifications effectively, you want to find that out before you undertake a 3rd cycle.

In the meantime, as much as I admire your early preparation for a 3rd application, I hope that you can report good news from this cycle.

 

[chilly_md]

There is still time for interviews. Students with lower GPA's but higher MCAT scores are likely to receive later interview invites.

It is not too late to add DO schools like Western, Touro NV, Touro CA, DMU and PCOM. Shadowing a DO in October and submitting by Halloween is certainly possible.

 

[shambho]

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[FlowRate]

I've been out of the game for a while so other folks ITT are going to give you way more up to date advice.

I'm curious though, and this may be obvious if there's something basic about med school apps these days that I'm not aware of--your application seems top heavy. Why? Why make yourself wait another cycle to apply to lower-tier MD schools instead of just doing it now? (Well I guess literally now may be too late but I mean what was the decision-making that went into that choice?)

 

[chilly_md]

Probably an overestimation of the strength of my application? The first cycle I was only complete at 10 schools so I wanted to apply broadly this time using the list Chilly created on my WAMC post and from my own research on schools that may like a research heavy application like mine.

What does MSAR say about which schools you were >10th percentile for both cGPA and sGPA? That was a major criteria for the school list.

 

[FlowRate]

Yale, Stanford, and Vanderbilt seem like big stretches at this point.

Are you (very) fluent in Spanish? Wouldn't make sense to apply to Ponce otherwise. Yes, you can do residency anywhere in the US coming from Ponce (I did residency with someone who did med school there.)

 

[shambho]

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[AJS59]

On a quick glance: Without ties I would consider removing UNC, Oregon, NEOMED, Hawaii and Utah without any substantive ties to North Carolina/Oregon/Ohio/Hawaii/Utah. Also be wary of Illinois - OOS tuition is pricy.

Also it's okay to keep the long shots on there but I would deprioritize their secondaries.

What if anything have you done during the cycle to prep for the next one? And have you spoken to a pre-health advisor about this, say from your undergrad?

 

[LindaAccepted]

Hi all,

Thank you, everyone, for your help so far. I didn't receive any interviews this cycle, so I'm preparing for the third and final cycle.

Updates:

Added DO shadowing, more non-clinical volunteering (will be ~350), and added hospice volunteering.

Three papers in preparation for submission (2 first author), and some of my writing may appear in Nature, Scientific American, and the New York Times. For the purposes of this application, I'm assuming none of these will be accepted/published.

I am also confirming with letter writers that the letters are strong (maybe there's a red flag I don't know about).

For this cycle, here's a primary school list I want to cut down by 30 or so schools:

Albany Medical College

Albert Einstein College of Medicine

Anne Burnett Marion School of Medicine at TCU

Boston University Aram V. Chobanian & Edward Avedisian School of Medicine

California University of Science and Medicine

Carle Illinois College of Medicine - (remove bc Engineering focus?)

Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine

Charles E. Schmidt College of Medicine at Florida Atlantic University

Creighton University School of Medicine

Drexel University College of Medicine - (remove bc nonclinical volunteering emphasis?)

Donald and Barbara Zucker School of Medicine at Hofstra/Northwell

Emory University School of Medicine

Florida International University Herbert Wertheim College of Medicine

Florida State University College of Medicine (remove bc state university, and looking for long-term commitment to non-clinical volunteering/service?)

Frank H. Netter MD School of Medicine at Quinnipiac University

Frederick P. Whiddon College of Medicine at the University of South Alabama

Geisel School of Medicine at Dartmouth

Geisinger Commonwealth School of Medicine - ( remove bc focus on underserved population within their region?)

George Washington University School of Medicine & Health Sciences

Georgetown University School of Medicine

Hackensack Meridian School of Medicine

Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai

Indiana University School of Medicine - (remove bc in-state preference, but a few non-residents are admitted. Non-residents with ties to Indiana given greater consideration?)

Jacobs School of Medicine and Biomedical Sciences at the University at Buffalo

Kaiser Permanente Bernard J. Tyson School of Medicine

Kirk Kerkorian School of Medicine at UNLV - ( remove bc primary consideration to Nevada residents? Successful applicants typically have ties to Nevada. Applicants from select Western states are also considered, including California)

Lewis Katz School of Medicine at Temple University

Louisiana State University School of Medicine in New Orleans

Mayo Clinic Alix School of Medicine

Medical College of Wisconsin -Milwaukee

New York Medical College

Northeast Ohio Medical University

Northwestern University The Feinberg School of Medicine -(remove bc my GPAS are barely above their 10th percentile?)

Nova Southeastern University Dr. Kiran C. Patel College of Allopathic Medicine

Oakland University William Beaumont School of Medicine

Ohio State University College of Medicine

Oregon Health & Science University School of Medicine

Pennsylvania State University College of Medicine

Ponce Health Sciences University School of Medicine (can you match back to residency in a different US state if you go to school in Puerto Rico?)

Renaissance School of Medicine at Stony Brook University

Robert Larner, M.D., College of Medicine at the University of Vermont - I really like this school the more Iook into it. I hope they consider me.

Sidney Kimmel Medical College at Thomas Jefferson University

Saint Louis University School of Medicine

Spencer Fox Eccles School of Medicine at the University of Utah

Stanford University School of Medicine - (remove bc barely above their 10th percentile GPAs?)

Tufts University School of Medicine

Tulane University School of Medicine

University of Arizona College of Medicine difficult because I'm from California

University of Arizona College of Medicine - Phoenix difficult because I'm from California

University of California, Irvine, School of Medicine

University of California, Los Angeles David Geffen School of Medicine

University of California, San Diego School of Medicine

University of California, San Francisco School of Medicine

University of Cincinnati College of Medicine

University of Colorado School of Medicine

University of Connecticut School of Medicine

University of Hawaii, John A. Burns School of Medicine

University of Illinois College of Medicine

University of Iowa Roy J. and Lucille A. Carver College of Medicine

University of Maryland School of Medicine

University of Miami Leonard M. Miller School of Medicine

University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill School of Medicine

University of Rochester School of Medicine and Dentistry

University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine

USF Health Morsani College of Medicine

Vanderbilt University School of Medicine

Virginia Tech Carilion School of Medicine

Virginia Commonwealth University School of Medicine

Wake Forest University School of Medicine

Western Michigan University Homer Stryker M.D. School of Medicine

Wright State University Boonshoft School of Medicine

Yale School of Medicine

Edward Via College of Osteopathic Medicine

Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine

Lincoln Memorial University DeBusk College of Osteopathic Medicine

Marian University College of Osteopathic Medicine

Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine

Nova Southeastern University Dr. Kiran C. Patel College of Osteopathic Medicine

Rowan University School of Osteopathic Medicine

Tour University California College of Osteopathic Medicine

University of North Texas Health Science Center at Fort Worth College of Osteopathic Medicine

Western University of Health Sciences College of Osteopathic Medicine of the Pacific

William Casey University College of Osteopathic Medicine

Schools I think I may have a decent shot at:

Albany Medical College
Anne Burnett Marion School of Medicine at TCU
Donald and Barbara Zucker School of Medicine at Hofstra/Northwell
Medical College of Wisconsin -Milwaukee
New York Medical College
Northeast Ohio Medical University
Nova Southeastern University Dr. Kiran C. Patel College of Allopathic Medicine
Ohio State University College of Medicine
Oregon Health & Science University School of Medicine
Pennsylvania State University College of Medicine
Spencer Fox Eccles School of Medicine at the University of Utah
Sidney Kimmel Medical College at Thomas Jefferson University
Tufts University School of Medicine
Robert Larner, M.D., College of Medicine at the University of Vermont
University of Cincinnati College of Medicine
University of Connecticut School of Medicine
University of Maryland School of Medicine
University of Miami Leonard M. Miller School of Medicine
USF Health Morsani College of Medicine
Virginia Tech Carilion School of Medicine
Western Michigan University Homer Stryker M.D. School of Medicine


Any thoughts on which schools to remove?

Thank you again!

I'd remove all the programs you have doubts about, as well as Einstein and KP. KP most wants people going into primary care and competition is brutal. The competition to Einstein will be brutal. Focus on the programs you have a decent shot at. And submit in June.

 

[Faha]

You have many state public schools on your list that admit few non residents with no connection to the state. Apply broadly to DO schools also.
For DO schools I suggest these:
WESTERN
TUCOM-CA
TUNCOM
AZCOM
KCU-COM
ATSU-KCOM
DMU-COM
CCOM
MU-COM
NYITCOM
Touro-NY
LECOM (all schools)
PCOM (all schools)
CUSOM
NOVA
ACOM
WVSOM
For MD schools I suggest these:
Vermont
Quinnipiac
Tufts
Hofstra
New York Medical College
Albany
Rochester
Hackensack
Drexel
Temple
Jefferson
Penn State
George Washington
Virginia Commonwealth
Eastern Virginia
Wake Forest
NOVA MD
USF Morsani
Miami
Belmont
Tulane
Creighton
St. Louis
Rosalind Franklin
Medical College Wisconsin
Western Michigan
Oakland Beaumont
Alice Walton (when it opens)
California University
Kaiser
Roseman (when it opens)
Apply in June and submit all your secondaries by July.

 

[Faha]

Thank you @Faha, what do you think of keeping these schools from the original list?

If you have 2 previous rejections from any of those schools then there is no point in trying a 3rd time.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Posted old articles compilation. See

Any guides for reapplying?

I am still waiting to hear back from 3 schools, but just in case, I want to start thinking about re-applying. I had 8 II that so far have led to 4 WL, 1 R, and 3 pending. Waitlisted at one of my state schools and R at the other. I think a lot of it at this point had to do with my interview...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[shambho]

Thank you both.

 

[Idkwhattocallit]

Kudos to you for your resilience in this process - my fingers are crossed that the third time is the charm!! In regards to VTC, I think you could have a decent shot of getting in there. They place a lot of emphasis on research (I think their average matriculant has like 3000 hours of research experience or something), so I would highlight research in your VTC application. Also - definitely apply for the Impact Scholarship at VTC as it's basically covers 50% of your fees. Best of luck with your reapplication!

 

[ClashRoyaleKing]

Sorry to hear your second cycle didn't turn out. This process is brutal.

 

[deleted1167714]

Have you thought about taking some time to establish residency in a better state (e.g. Ohio, South Carolina, etc.)? California is brutal for in-state applicants.