Struggling in neuroanatomy, does it matter?

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MEDUSA23

MEDUSA23

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I have been doing well in medical school thus far but am struggling with neuroanatomy and expect to be well below the 50th percentile for the course. I have a few honors and have been above the 50th percentile in every other course. My lackluster performance in neuro is partially the result of having little previous exposure to the material and not due to a lack of effort. I am giving serious consideration to a couple highly competitive specialties and would appreciate feedback on whether residencies will give a hoot about my neuro grade years down the road.
Thanks in advance!
 
you might check out the book "neuroanatomy made ridiculously simple" and also, as with anything, flash cards + cadavers. Rohen's is a great photographic atlas that might be helpful.

Focus on clinical issues, decussations, cortical lesions, muscular innervations, aphasias, and the optic pathway, and you'll be fine. Spaced repetition and practice questions are the best way to learn anything!
 
You might be forced to do internal medicine or psychiatry, but both are really good fields. I'm sorry you don't know the pathways of neuroanatomy. Every med student and doctor has a great understanding of that stuff, so you might want to pick it up.
 
JP2740 said:
You might be forced to do internal medicine or psychiatry, but both are really good fields. I'm sorry you don't know the pathways of neuroanatomy. Every med student and doctor has a great understanding of that stuff, so you might want to pick it up.
Click to expand...

:laugh:
 
sarcasm = lowest form of humor
 
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BionH said:
you might check out the book "neuroanatomy made ridiculously simple" and also, as with anything, flash cards + cadavers. Rohen's is a great photographic atlas that might be helpful.

Focus on clinical issues, decussations, cortical lesions, muscular innervations, aphasias, and the optic pathway, and you'll be fine. Spaced repetition and practice questions are the best way to learn anything!
Click to expand...

Thank you for the tips. I have both of those books in addition to Haines and a couple other textbooks. I actually know quite a bit about the material you speak of, but the exams have been intensely integrative in how they have tested the material. We had a lab exam yesterday and although I knew all the structures and spinal cord/brainstem cross sections, I had difficulty because they asked questions that required connecting three lines of reasoning with only 60 seconds to answer the question. I may know the material that well for the final, but it is taking awhile to sort out everything in my head. I will pass; I am just worried that specialties like ENT or Rad Onc are expecting perfection.
 
JP2740 said:
You might be forced to do internal medicine or psychiatry, but both are really good fields. I'm sorry you don't know the pathways of neuroanatomy. Every med student and doctor has a great understanding of that stuff, so you might want to pick it up.
Click to expand...

🙄
 
MEDUSA23 said:
Thank you for the tips. I have both of those books in addition to Haines and a couple other textbooks. I actually know quite a bit about the material you speak of, but the exams have been intensely integrative in how they have tested the material. We had a lab exam yesterday and although I knew all the structures and spinal cord/brainstem cross sections, I had difficulty because they asked questions that required connecting three lines of reasoning with only 60 seconds to answer the question. I may know the material that well for the final, but it is taking awhile to sort out everything in my head. I will pass; I am just worried that specialties like ENT or Rad Onc are expecting perfection.
Click to expand...

In all honesty the level of detail that we had to know for class was absurd. Realistically from a functional and boards standpoint, you don't need to know that much; big-picture concepts suffice. I.e. I was able to deduce the answer to a u-world question just by knowing that the medulla contains CN nuclei IX, X, XII and that the medial nuclei are the motor nuclei (and the lateral are sensory). I don't know if this is "cheating"... maybe some people really do know all of that stuff in detail, but i don't get bogged down in it and I haven't done terribly as a result.
 
oceanillusion42 said:
In all honesty the level of detail that we had to know for class was absurd. Realistically from a functional and boards standpoint, you don't need to know that much; big-picture concepts suffice. I.e. I was able to deduce the answer to a u-world question just by knowing that the medulla contains CN nuclei IX, X, XII and that the medial nuclei are the motor nuclei (and the lateral are sensory). I don't know if this is "cheating"... maybe some people really do know all of that stuff in detail, but i don't get bogged down in it and I haven't done terribly as a result.
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Good advice. I do need to break it down into simpler formulas like you mention. From what I have seen in board review books, the level of detail we are learning is not required. And I heard our final (cumulative and 40% of our grade) focuses on clinical applications of the material. I prefer this to how we have been tested so far in the class.
 
MEDUSA23 said:
Good advice. I do need to break it down into simpler formulas like you mention. From what I have seen in board review books, the level of detail we are learning is not required. And I heard our final (cumulative and 40% of our grade) focuses on clinical applications of the material. I prefer this to how we have been tested so far in the class.
Click to expand...

You might want to take a peek at Neuroanatomy through Clinical Cases then.
 
MEDUSA23 said:
sarcasm = lowest form of humor
Click to expand...

I like big butts and I can not lie
You other brothers can't deny
That when a girl walks in with an itty bitty waist
And a round thing in your face
You get sprung, wanna pull out your tough
'Cause you notice that butt was stuffed
Deep in the jeans she's wearing
I'm hooked and I can't stop staring
 
oceanillusion42 said:
In all honesty the level of detail that we had to know for class was absurd. Realistically from a functional and boards standpoint, you don't need to know that much; big-picture concepts suffice. I.e. I was able to deduce the answer to a u-world question just by knowing that the medulla contains CN nuclei IX, X, XII and that the medial nuclei are the motor nuclei (and the lateral are sensory). I don't know if this is "cheating"... maybe some people really do know all of that stuff in detail, but i don't get bogged down in it and I haven't done terribly as a result.
Click to expand...

I heard that any form of anatomy is pretty low-yield on the boards anyhow.

I'm sure as long as you rock the boards, everything should be fine. Everyone knows that minimal weight is placed on pre-clinical grades. 👍
 
My first exposure to any kind of neuroscience was in medical school. Beyond learning about action potentials and the basics of the nervous system I was never exposed to this material. As you might expect, it was a struggle. Fortunately I've found that the neuro that is "boards relevant" (aka in First Aid) is actually pretty minimal. We covered a TON of material in our neuroanatomy course that for all intents and purposes is completely missing in the board review stuff that I've seen.

I know that doesn't help you all that much, but my point was that it's a difficult subject and to try and just beast your way through it. At times I felt like I was doing nothing but reading the phonebook.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717
 
Even the clinical application of what you learn in neuroanatomy is next to none. There's a few key things that you really need to know to diagnose lesions, but other than that, it's purely academic.
 
tco said:
Even the clinical application of what you learn in neuroanatomy is next to none. There's a few key things that you really need to know to diagnose lesions, but other than that, it's purely academic.
Click to expand...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15836511

This was a good basis/summary for my neuro class. I found it a great place to start building a foundation when trying to synthesize all of the CN/spinal cord stuff in 3 weeks.
 
MEDUSA23 said:
Thank you for the tips. I have both of those books in addition to Haines and a couple other textbooks. I actually know quite a bit about the material you speak of, but the exams have been intensely integrative in how they have tested the material. We had a lab exam yesterday and although I knew all the structures and spinal cord/brainstem cross sections, I had difficulty because they asked questions that required connecting three lines of reasoning with only 60 seconds to answer the question. I may know the material that well for the final, but it is taking awhile to sort out everything in my head. I will pass; I am just worried that specialties like ENT or Rad Onc are expecting perfection.
Click to expand...

I am having some trouble orienting myself in neuro and am afraid that I will in the same predicament you are in. Do you like the Haines atlas? Are there any other sources or websites you would recommend?

I bought the Nolte textbook and that has some decent information in it but can be a bit dense from place to place.
 
0011000100 said:
I am having some trouble orienting myself in neuro and am afraid that I will in the same predicament you are in. Do you like the Haines atlas? Are there any other sources or websites you would recommend?

I bought the Nolte textbook and that has some decent information in it but can be a bit dense from place to place.
Click to expand...

Haines atlas is just ok in my opinion. But it is referenced directly by our lab manual so I felt it was a necessary purchase. There are a couple websites I have used as additional resources:
http://www.neuroanatomy.wisc.edu/virtualbrain/BrainStem/08CNX.html
http://neuroscience.uth.tmc.edu/s2/chapter02.html

I have two exams in other classes this week, but then we are on spring break. I plan to study neuro intensively over break. I have never struggled with a subject matter like this before so it is definitely disconcerting. Normally things come fairly easy to me so I guess it was about time to get knocked down a few pegs. Hope we can both pull it together!
 
0011000100 said:
I am having some trouble orienting myself in neuro and am afraid that I will in the same predicament you are in. Do you like the Haines atlas? Are there any other sources or websites you would recommend?

I bought the Nolte textbook and that has some decent information in it but can be a bit dense from place to place.
Click to expand...

Haines is ****ing garbage if you ask me. B/W photos, low resolution, terrible writing style. **** that book.
 
If you're looking for a different text, Medical Neurobiology by Mason is what we used (she was also our professor). I'm generally not a textbook reader but I actually read this thing from cover to cover. I thought she did a pretty good job of generally explaining things clearly and having helpful diagrams. It's a first edition text so I'm sure it'll be much improved in the future, but if you're looking for something for the time being I really liked it. It's less than $60 new on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Medical-Neurobiology-Peggy-Mason-PhD/dp/0195339975/
 
NickNaylor said:
If you're looking for a different text, Medical Neurobiology by Mason is what we used (she was also our professor). I'm generally not a textbook reader but I actually read this thing from cover to cover. I thought she did a pretty good job of generally explaining things clearly and having helpful diagrams. It's a first edition text so I'm sure it'll be much improved in the future, but if you're looking for something for the time being I really liked it. It's less than $60 new on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Medical-Neurobiology-Peggy-Mason-PhD/dp/0195339975/
Click to expand...

Just took a look at the sample on amazon and it looks great. Thanks for the recommendation!
 
MrTambourineMan said:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15836511

This was a good basis/summary for my neuro class. I found it a great place to start building a foundation when trying to synthesize all of the CN/spinal cord stuff in 3 weeks.
Click to expand...

I read that paper about 5 times in total during my 2 week neurology clerkship. It's absolutely perfect for clinical lesions. I love it.

A quick Google search for the title might find something worthwhile for everyone interested.
 
NickNaylor said:
If you're looking for a different text, Medical Neurobiology by Mason is what we used (she was also our professor). I'm generally not a textbook reader but I actually read this thing from cover to cover. I thought she did a pretty good job of generally explaining things clearly and having helpful diagrams. It's a first edition text so I'm sure it'll be much improved in the future, but if you're looking for something for the time being I really liked it. It's less than $60 new on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Medical-Neurobiology-Peggy-Mason-PhD/dp/0195339975/
Click to expand...

That looks like a pretty good resource. Does it have a ton of typos?
 
0011000100 said:
That looks like a pretty good resource. Does it have a ton of typos?
Click to expand...

No, I actually don't remember encountering any beyond very minor grammatical stuff. I think the best part is the organization: the prose mostly provides overviews while the figures and figure legends explain the details.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717
 
Getting back to your OP, no, competitive specialties will not care that you did not do well in neuroanatomy. Except possibly neurology or neurosurgery. But even then, it's unlikely.
 
evilbooyaa said:
Getting back to your OP, no, competitive specialties will not care that you did not do well in neuroanatomy. Except possibly neurology or neurosurgery. But even then, it's unlikely.
Click to expand...

We had a specialty fair and I talked to faculty from our otolaryngology program. They said it is important to not just pass classes and that I should honor some courses. This has made me more concerned about my performance in preclinical coursework. It seems like I constantly hear different opinions on preclinical grades.
 
MEDUSA23 said:
We had a specialty fair and I talked to faculty from our otolaryngology program. They said it is important to not just pass classes and that I should honor some courses. This has made me more concerned about my performance in preclinical coursework. It seems like I constantly hear different opinions on preclinical grades.
Click to expand...

Go here: http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

Look at page 6 (ranking of importance of various factors according to a survey of PDs). "Class ranking/quartile" is reported as the 9th most important factor for the purposes of getting a residency interview. "Honors in basic sciences" is 29th. In ranking interviewees, "class ranking/quartile" is 18th and "honors in basic sciences" is 32nd. This is averaged over all specialties/programs, so obviously it's not true at every program or every specialty, but that should give you an idea of the importance of grades.

So there's that.
 
NickNaylor said:
Go here: http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

Look at page 6 (ranking of importance of various factors according to a survey of PDs). "Class ranking/quartile" is reported as the 9th most important factor for the purposes of getting a residency interview. "Honors in basic sciences" is 29th. In ranking interviewees, "class ranking/quartile" is 18th and "honors in basic sciences" is 32nd. This is averaged over all specialties/programs, so obviously it's not true at every program or every specialty, but that should give you an idea of the importance of grades.

So there's that.
Click to expand...

+1. every program that i've ever heard talk about increasing your chances of matching to said program has said the same, generic things such as "do well in basic sciences", "get AOA", etc. they fail to take into account the cost/benefit analysis of these endeavors, and from what I've experienced the return on investment isn't enough to justify the cost.
 
FIREitUP said:
+1. every program that i've ever heard talk about increasing your chances of matching to said program has said the same, generic things such as "do well in basic sciences", "get AOA", etc. they fail to take into account the cost/benefit analysis of these endeavors, and from what I've experienced the return on investment isn't enough to justify the cost.
Click to expand...

Meaning don't sacrifice involvement in other activities to get AOA?
 
MEDUSA23 said:
Meaning don't sacrifice involvement in other activities to get AOA?
Click to expand...

yes, and don't sacrifice your mental and physical well-being in those endeavors. i am surrounded by people who are going nuts at the idea of getting an 89 vs a 90. Newsflash, it doesn't really matter. In the end you will be judged by your knowledge on the floor and how well you treat your peers and patients. That, and shelf exams are standardized and not written by people who don't know the subject matter well enough to test it.
 
MEDUSA23 said:
We had a specialty fair and I talked to faculty from our otolaryngology program. They said it is important to not just pass classes and that I should honor some courses. This has made me more concerned about my performance in preclinical coursework. It seems like I constantly hear different opinions on preclinical grades.
Click to expand...

No one is ever going to say "P = MD" but the reality is that pre-clinicals just don't matter.
 
notbobtrustme said:
No one is ever going to say "P = MD" but the reality is that pre-clinicals just don't matter.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

While some honors are nice in pre-clinicals, and you should definitely shoot for gold to start medical school, it is not the end of the world if you don't pull those off.

Otolaryngology is of course going to tell you to focus on what you can do to boost your application as a MS1/MS2, which is to do well in your current classes so (hopefully) you rock Step 1. The other thing I would recommend specifically for ENT is get involved in some research, preferably chart review, to snag some abstracts/posters/publications (pubs preferred) to round out your application.

For most if not all specialties, the most important things that programs look at are (in no particular order: Step 1 & 2, Clinical grades, Research, LORs, AOA (maybe)
 
evilbooyaa said:
Agreed.

While some honors are nice in pre-clinicals, and you should definitely shoot for gold to start medical school, it is not the end of the world if you don't pull those off.

Otolaryngology is of course going to tell you to focus on what you can do to boost your application as a MS1/MS2, which is to do well in your current classes so (hopefully) you rock Step 1. The other thing I would recommend specifically for ENT is get involved in some research, preferably chart review, to snag some abstracts/posters/publications (pubs preferred) to round out your application.

For most if not all specialties, the most important things that programs look at are (in no particular order: Step 1 & 2, Clinical grades, Research, LORs, AOA (maybe)
Click to expand...

I have a ton of research experience including publications and presentations at conferences. I will be doing more research this summer to (fingers-crossed) complete a second 1st author paper (in addition to 3 3rd author papers). Does it matter what field the research is in? I have been conducting psychoneuroimmunology research involving Gyn/Onc patients. I feel like I am gaining so many experiences related to gyn/onc and ob/gyn that it may skew my resume in one direction when I am currently undecided about my future specialty.
 
MEDUSA23 said:
I have been doing well in medical school thus far but am struggling with neuroanatomy and expect to be well below the 50th percentile for the course. I have a few honors and have been above the 50th percentile in every other course. My lackluster performance in neuro is partially the result of having little previous exposure to the material and not due to a lack of effort. I am giving serious consideration to a couple highly competitive specialties and would appreciate feedback on whether residencies will give a hoot about my neuro grade years down the road.
Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

Unless you flat out fail, a simple pass in 1 preclinical course isn't going to prevent you from getting into a "highly competitive" specialty. Do the best you can, don't stress out over it. There are far more important things looming in your future...step 1, clerkship grades, etc.
 
whimsy said:
high yield neuroanatomy is awesome.
Click to expand...

I agree this book was pretty detailed and useful. The atlas I used was The Brain Atlas by Woolsey and the text was Basic Clinical Neuroscience by Young and Young. The text wasn't the best but did a great job explaining long pathways.
 
MEDUSA23 said:
I have a ton of research experience including publications and presentations at conferences. I will be doing more research this summer to (fingers-crossed) complete a second 1st author paper (in addition to 3 3rd author papers). Does it matter what field the research is in? I have been conducting psychoneuroimmunology research involving Gyn/Onc patients. I feel like I am gaining so many experiences related to gyn/onc and ob/gyn that it may skew my resume in one direction when I am currently undecided about my future specialty.
Click to expand...

Depends on what specialty you are interested in. I know that Rad-Onc much prefers rad-onc specific publications to non rad-onc publications. I am unsure of how it is for ENT, so someone else can help you more there. However, any and all publications/posters will be of benefit to you, regardless of what field you go into. How much they will help you is dependent on what specialty you want to apply for.
 
MEDUSA23 said:
I have been doing well in medical school thus far but am struggling with neuroanatomy and expect to be well below the 50th percentile for the course. I have a few honors and have been above the 50th percentile in every other course. My lackluster performance in neuro is partially the result of having little previous exposure to the material and not due to a lack of effort. I am giving serious consideration to a couple highly competitive specialties and would appreciate feedback on whether residencies will give a hoot about my neuro grade years down the road.
Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

If it makes you feel better, about 20% of the MS1 class failed our neurology block we just completed (not just an exam, the whole block).

This same pattern has occured almost yearly (well, for at least the last three years).
 
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MEDUSA23 said:
I have been doing well in medical school thus far but am struggling with neuroanatomy and expect to be well below the 50th percentile for the course. I have a few honors and have been above the 50th percentile in every other course. My lackluster performance in neuro is partially the result of having little previous exposure to the material and not due to a lack of effort. I am giving serious consideration to a couple highly competitive specialties and would appreciate feedback on whether residencies will give a hoot about my neuro grade years down the road.
Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

LOL, I think we are in the same class and I'm feeling the same way. I think it has less to do with the material and more how it is presented. Our instructors aren't the best, and I'm pretty sure most people hate that class.
 
Just get through it and avoid any serious red flags on your transcript. Your general knowledge of anatomy will likely matter very little depending on what you end up going into. Remember, you have done well on all your other classes so it's likely EVERYONE is struggling with this not just you!

Survivor DO
 
ucladoc2b said:
If it makes you feel better, about 20% of the MS1 class failed our neurology block we just completed (not just an exam, the whole block).

This same pattern has occured almost yearly (well, for at least the last three years).
Click to expand...

If 20% of your class is failing a block year after year that is the fault of the school, not the students. The administration/teachers should be ashamed of themselves.*

*assuming you go to a U.S. MD school
 
Neuroanatomy was one of those courses which was a royal pain in the@ss. that combined with the fact that it was the last course before MS1 summer vacation = P=MD. somehow I managed to match into my top choice of anesthesiology residency.
 
ucladoc2b said:
If it makes you feel better, about 20% of the MS1 class failed our neurology block we just completed (not just an exam, the whole block).

This same pattern has occured almost yearly (well, for at least the last three years).
Click to expand...

You're saying that the school is going to make 1/5th of your class remediate M1 neuro?
 
alpinism said:
You're saying that the school is going to make 1/5th of your class remediate M1 neuro?
Click to expand...

Yes. The remediation consists of taking a make up exam in the summer, so hopefully, most of the students will just take it and move on. I'm kind of split on the approach. On one hand, students will learn the material and learn to deal with failure in a pretty low-stakes environment, which is a good life lesson. On the other hand, I'd imagine that it's a pretty stressful experience for the studnets involved (perhaps nedlessly stressful).
 
ucladoc2b said:
Yes. The remediation consists of taking a make up exam in the summer, so hopefully, most of the students will just take it and move on. I'm kind of split on the approach. On one hand, students will learn the material and learn to deal with failure in a pretty low-stakes environment, which is a good life lesson. On the other hand, I'd imagine that it's a pretty stressful experience for the studnets involved (perhaps nedlessly stressful).
Click to expand...

I'd imagine. That's ridiculous. I don't understand how/why your dean thinks that is acceptable.
 
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