Student Doctor Network hate?

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turrgavi

turrgavi

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Hi,

I was listening to a podcast this morning. It was on the topic of premed resources and when someone mentioned SDN, everyone freaked out and began hating on it. Even saying not to mention "SDN" on his show again.

What makes them hate SDN?
 
SDN has a reputation for neuroticism, vitriol, and incorrect or misguided advice to the lay-premed. Of course there are elements of these present, but experienced users are able to wade through the BS and pick out the things that will actually help them when applying to medical school and beyond.
 
WedgeDawg said:
SDN has a reputation for neuroticism, vitriol, and incorrect or misguided advice to the lay-premed. Of course there are elements of these present, but experienced users are able to wade through the BS and pick out the things that will actually help them when applying to medical school and beyond.
Click to expand...

This right here.
 
It's helped me a lot during the app cycle in pretty much every step. It's easy to get wrong info if you believe everything you read on here. For instance, there are freshman premeds who may comment on your 'what are my chances' thread. Listen only to adcoms or experienced users like wedge^
 
Okay, I think I have got it now.

There's just a lot of unhelpful/misleading information on here BUT if I can find the important advice, I'll be fine.
 
turrgavi said:
Okay, I think I have got it now.

There's just a lot of unhelpful/misleading information on here BUT if I can find the important advice, I'll be fine.
Click to expand...

Exactly. SDN helped me immensely during my application time, and it helps a lot of people who have really lackluster or even WRONG pre-med advising at their undergrads. You just have to go into it taking every piece of advice with a grain of salt, and soon you figure out who to trust more than others.

I enjoyed giving back to pre-allo because it was such a big help. A few people I know IRL know who I am on here, and it doesn't really bother me even if they have a negative idea of the site. I am just as helpful to underclassmen and my pre-med mentees IRL as I am on here, and nothing I say on here is any different from what I would say IRL.

I think with any semi-anonymous online forum, you're going to get the trolls, you're going to get the people who act differently just because they're "anonymous," and you're going to get the people who step outside their scope. There's a reason I don't frequent the WAMC forum -- I might know what someone's chances are at my institution, but I'm not comfortable enough in my knowledge of med school admissions as a whole, country-wide, in order to give educated advice. Then I see pre-meds giving advice in WAMC, which they are perfectly warranted to do and maybe they know more than me, but personally I would take that advice with a grain of salt and pay more attention to the adcoms who frequent that forum and provide excellent advice.
 
I found SDN to be incredibly helpful.

It isn't hard to figure out who to listen to and who to take with a grain of salt.

It is an internet forum, like any other, so there will be a few trolls. But it is an internet forum which is primarily populated by a demographic of very bright, professional, compassionate people with common aims. It is a place where if you ask for help, you will get it, possibly with a side dish of sarcasm/judgment to remind you that there actually are a few dumb questions. If you stick around and contribute to the conversation in turn, then you get to help set the tone here and make it the kind of place you think it should be.

Anyone who doesn't want to even hear it mentioned probably got told something that they didn't want to accept. SDN does not coddle. Some snowflakes can't handle that.
 
Meh, my school actually happens to have knowledgable advisors. And SDN is overall more negative and conservative than physicians in my community.
 
Promethean said:
Anyone who doesn't want to even hear it mentioned probably got told something that they didn't want to accept. SDN does not coddle. Some snowflakes can't handle that.
Click to expand...

Agreed with this right here.

I've met a lot of people who do 1 moderately good thing (scored 33 on the MCAT, volunteered at the kids hospital once a month, was 3rd substitute goalie on the water polo team), and somehow think that qualifies them for special treatment. As if the Harvard Dean of Admissions is going to give them a personal call and beg them to come to their school. When faced with the reality that there are thousands of other students out there who are objectively better, the first response is to deny that reality and cling to one's preconceived notions.

Remember denial is the first stage of grief.
 
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I appreciate SDN for solidarity and general guidelines. I would say, however, that every single success I've had this cycle was specifically expressed to me *by an SDN adcom* as being highly unlikely/a waste of money.

My takeaway is that SDN is great for helping you determine best practice, but not to let it limit you. People giving advice on here can go on autopilot just like anyone else.
 
pageantry said:
I appreciate SDN for solidarity and general guidelines. I would say, however, that every single success I've had this cycle was specifically expressed to me *by an SDN adcom* as being highly unlikely/a waste of money.
Click to expand...
Some SDN adcoms are too tough at times and follow their own school's agenda. I was pretty much told applying MD only was a mistake because "beggars cant be choosers", and the same adcom denied DOs have problems matching certain specialties (when the numbers clearly say otherwise).

Adcom's advice is hit or miss, some of them here have pretty good advice, some do not.

The people with successful past cycles no doubt have the best advice here, they battled the beast and killed it. The problems is their posts are buried under lots of non sense and not everyone can find them, hence the bad reputation this forum gets.
 
People quickly go to extremes on SDN and that can be harmful. I think I applied very bottom-heavy and to too many schools because of the advice I was given on this site, but whatever, it worked out.

The thing that drives me the craziest about this site is how numbers-obsessed everyone seems to be. With MCAT/gpa, school rankings, everything. Then you get into the thick of the application cycle and you realize schools are fighting for applicants with average numbers but rejecting/waitlisting those in their 90th percentile, but people on here still insist numbers mean everything lol. You also see people seriously contemplating paying an extra 200k to attend a school that's ranked marginally better than another offer, just for a bump in prestige. Not good.

A lot of the stress of this process would be removed if people were more realistic on this site, but that's not going to happen. This is SDN!
 
Spinach Dip said:
Agreed with this right here.

I've met a lot of people who do 1 moderately good thing (scored 33 on the MCAT, volunteered at the kids hospital once a month, was 3rd substitute goalie on the water polo team), and somehow think that qualifies them for special treatment. As if the Harvard Dean of Admissions is going to give them a personal call and beg them to come to their school. When faced with the reality that there are thousands of other students out there who are objectively better, the first response is to deny that reality and cling to one's preconceived notions.

Remember denial is the first stage of grief.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but just to counter, I know a lot of people getting ready to graduate med school right now who SDN would have told them not to apply, take a gap year, retake the mcat, only apply DO, and get a SMP just because their mcat was 1-5 points below average...and I mean below average for a 31 average school, not below average for harvard.
 
Long time lurker here. Honestly, is there a better alternative forum out there? For me, I haven't seen anything on the internet that comes close to SDN.
 
You should keep three things in mind if you want SDN to be useful.

1. Do not take SDN's opinions on the medical profession more seriously than that of medical professionals you know in real life. Remember that while you are out in the world doing whatever it is you do you are experiencing and learning things and someone's opinion on the internet does not negate those experiences. SDN is a supplement not a replacement.

2. AdComs are people. The adcoms on here disagree about some things and have shown to have their own biases and preferences. In short, they are people. When putting together your application remember that you are a person applying to be reviewed by other people. If you cannot figure out how to appear like a human being then maybe you are not ready to apply. If you consider that the adcom are people then you won't fall into the trap of thinking "who will be accepted between A and B if B has this tiny difference.." or "is it ok if I only take 12 hours??!?" or "should I retake my 36 because WashU's average is 38?!?" Etc.

3. Like the others have said above, do not obsess about numbers. Buy the MSAR, figure out what schools would be a good fit for your career goals AND your numbers. It is good advice to apply broadly but try to have a good sense for the rest of your application outside of simple metrics. Do not apply to a school you do not want to go to just because SDN tells you to. If you would be miserable in NYC then don't apply to Columbia even though you have a 4.0/528. If you couldn't live in a rural area then don't apply to TAMU even if you are within their range, etc. Your application should be smart but not paranoid.

My advice to people joining SDN:

1. Get off SDN.
2. Oh look, you're back you neurotic SOB, now go read @mimelim's post about being a good clerkship student I forget where it is

Then read @bluestreak's advice on interviewing:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/advice-from-20-interviews.980593/

Then read @mehc012 's Anki thread so that you get an A in all of your memorization heavy courses (aka intro bio, psych, biochemistry)
3. Buy the MSAR
4. Go to the socio-political forum to lose any desire to be on SDN.
5. Get off SDN
 
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If you have even a moderately functional BS detector, you should have a pretty easy time making really good use of SDN. Does bad advice exist here? Sure. But it's quite easy to spot and ignore. And if that isn't enough, the bad advice is usually refuted quickly by multiple posters.

I guess if you're the type who reads crappy advice, then reads six posts explaining why the crappy advice is wrong, then follows the crappy advice anyway, then you might have a tough time making use of SDN. But if that's how your brain works, you probably have a tough time with a lot of things.
 
I think people have trouble with the concept that anybody giving advice has to deal in generalizations to some extent. If someone is told their application is subpar in some way, but they still get into a top school, it doesn't mean the advice was bad or that "SDN is too neurotic." It may just mean that they were lucky and beat the odds, while in general that advice would still apply.
 
Donald Juan said:
Yeah, but just to counter, I know a lot of people getting ready to graduate med school right now who SDN would have told them not to apply, take a gap year, retake the mcat, only apply DO, and get a SMP just because their mcat was 1-5 points below average...and I mean below average for a 31 average school, not below average for harvard.
Click to expand...
As someone finished w an SMP and who's done a ton of reading on SDN about them, I have rarely, rarely seen anyone suggest an SMP to someone who was deficient in an MCAT score. Quite the opposite, majority of advice heeds people to stay away unless they have under a 3.3 GPA, so I'm not quite sure how you've reached this assumption.
 
Spinach Dip said:
Agreed with this right here.

I've met a lot of people who do 1 moderately good thing (scored 33 on the MCAT, volunteered at the kids hospital once a month, was 3rd substitute goalie on the water polo team), and somehow think that qualifies them for special treatment. As if the Harvard Dean of Admissions is going to give them a personal call and beg them to come to their school. When faced with the reality that there are thousands of other students out there who are objectively better, the first response is to deny that reality and cling to one's preconceived notions.

Remember denial is the first stage of grief.
Click to expand...
Ewww. I know so many people like that.
 
turrgavi said:
Hi,

I was listening to a podcast this morning. It was on the topic of premed resources and when someone mentioned SDN, everyone freaked out and began hating on it. Even saying not to mention "SDN" on his show again.

What makes them hate SDN?
Click to expand...
We don't coddle snowflakes, so they flip ****. Most of the advice here is actually pretty good, but a lot of people, particularly those that have borderline grades or MCAT scores, look at the advice on SDN and get intimidated and butthurt because we're not telling them their dreams are going to come true and they're getting into Harvard with their 3.1/498. If you know what to look for, SDN is literally the best resource there is for premeds. If you've got a fragile ego, are neurotic, or scare easily, SDN will send you crying into a corner.

SDN isn't for the weak, fragile, lazy, or stupid, basically. And most premeds fall into one of those categories. 95% of premeds wash out. Most of the rest use SDN.
 
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Donald Juan said:
Yeah, but just to counter, I know a lot of people getting ready to graduate med school right now who SDN would have told them not to apply, take a gap year, retake the mcat, only apply DO, and get a SMP just because their mcat was 1-5 points below average...and I mean below average for a 31 average school, not below average for harvard.
Click to expand...
Anyone who's telling someone to get a SMP because they have a deficient MCAT is a ******. SMPs make up for GPA, not MCAT.
 
Mad Jack said:
We don't coddle snowflakes, so they flip ****. Most of the advice here is actually pretty good, but a lot of people, particularly those that have borderline grades or MCAT scores, look at the advice on SDN and get intimidated and butthurt because we're not telling them their dreams are going to come true and they're getting into Harvard with their 3.1/498. If you know what to look for, SDN is literally the best resource there is for premeds. If you've got a fragile ego, are neurotic, or scare easily, SDN will send you crying into a corner.

SDN isn't for the weak, neurotic, lazy, or stupid, basically. And most premeds fall into one of those categories. 95% of premeds wash out. Most of the rest use SDN.
Click to expand...
agree, except the part about sdn not being for the neurotic lol
 
Not to beat a dead horse, but SDN is useful for things like finding out super early the AAMC is thinking about pushing the application cycle back a week this year (I made this up), etc. I wouldn't come here for advice on your application, because most of it will just be plain wrong.
 
This site has a lot of negativity that you need to wade through and that can make you feel inadequate.

Then people use absolute statements and apply them to situations that are different from their own/about which they have no knowledge. Eg. A lot of the stuff on this site doesn't apply to people at top undergrads. My school sent over 10 people to med school last year who had gpas under 3.35 along with a MCAT score ranging from 28-33 (they got into a mix of public and privates and my school only has ~100 people applying each year). And I've heard similar things from students at other top schools. A 3.4 would get you to a strong mid-tier. This site would give bad advice to someone from a top school with a 3.3
 
The usefulness of the advice aside, I think the culture of SDN may sometimes reflects a culture of abuse within medicine. There is needless rudeness and cruelty. Posturing. Being on the Internet brings it out too, I guess.

I expect this comes from a lot of young people feeling (and probably being) badly treated in medical school/medicine/life.

It is, however, possible to seek out areas of positivity on here. And that's important.
 
Affiche said:
People quickly go to extremes on SDN and that can be harmful. I think I applied very bottom-heavy and to too many schools because of the advice I was given on this site, but whatever, it worked out.

The thing that drives me the craziest about this site is how numbers-obsessed everyone seems to be. With MCAT/gpa, school rankings, everything. Then you get into the thick of the application cycle and you realize schools are fighting for applicants with average numbers but rejecting/waitlisting those in their 90th percentile, but people on here still insist numbers mean everything lol. You also see people seriously contemplating paying an extra 200k to attend a school that's ranked marginally better than another offer, just for a bump in prestige. Not good.

A lot of the stress of this process would be removed if people were more realistic on this site, but that's not going to happen. This is SDN!
Click to expand...

Totally agree. I'm kind new to the site but one thing I see with a lot of the school-specific threads is that people are constantly obsessing over LizzyM scores. While I think that LizzyM is a fantastic way of gaging where you should apply and how competitive your numbers are, I feel as though many people on this site think it's the be-all end-all of the application process. There's life beyond numbers, and I think many adcoms see that. That, and the neurotic 'what are my chances' threads can be a bit overwhelming.
 
Krupke said:
This site has a lot of negativity that you need to wade through and that can make you feel inadequate.

Then people use absolute statements and apply them to situations that are different from their own/about which they have no knowledge. Eg. A lot of the stuff on this site doesn't apply to people at top undergrads. My school sent over 10 people to med school last year who had gpas under 3.35 along with a MCAT score ranging from 28-33 (they got into a mix of public and privates and my school only has ~100 people applying each year). And I've heard similar things from students at other top schools. A 3.4 would get you to a strong mid-tier. This site would give bad advice to someone from a top school with a 3.3
Click to expand...

Actually this type of stuff is discussed more than you might think (see my sig and probably about 25% of posts by @efle)
 
The way to use SDN effectively is by consulting the stickied threads, advice threads made by adcoms/attendings, and some study scheduling threads. Search function also helps in acquiring useful information that are hidden in a load of garbage.

However, i would steer clear from much of preallo, WAMC, MCAT and allo forums. While some threads indicate a supportive environment (like class and MCAT date threads), the significant fraction of the forums is corrupted by sheer negativity, bitterness and envy. These forums will have no problem crushing your ego by saying your application is subpar, and you should carry out inefficient and expensive ways (like SMPs for low GPA) to redeem yourself.

The forums are inherently negative and acidic because they serve as an ideal echo chamber for upset people to vent their angers away. This is true in preallo, in allo, in residency forums etc. Ignore them. If you need sincere help on your chances, follow only the advice from adcoms and attendings involved in admissions.

But SDN remains a good place for gathering useful information. Just ignore the huge pile of garbage in the way with effective searching methods
 
gonnif said:
Where do I begin? I can barely even give you a list of the broad categories:

1) simple incorrect facts/wrong information: I have had arguments even after showing the reports/data/instructions from AMCAS.
2) opinion represented as fact
3) obnoxious, arrogant, negative comments for someone looking for some advice
4) the constant, overriding, pure refrain over simple crude stat, usually cGPA, without any examination for nuance or understanding how to it may get looked at
5) Belief that there is "one" admissions system or that all the schools work in the same way. With 130 schools, hundreds of adcom members, there is no simple, over all answer or generalization. Call this the simplification conundrum.
6) To extend #5, applying one step in one process to one school to all steps at all schools
Click to expand...

The bold is so definitely true--black and white thinking.
 
Lucca said:
You should keep three things in mind if you want SDN to be useful.

1. Do not take SDN's opinions on the medical profession more seriously than that of medical professionals you know in real life. Remember that while you are out in the world doing whatever it is you do you are experiencing and learning things and someone's opinion on the internet does not negate those experiences. SDN is a supplement not a replacement.

2. AdComs are people. The adcoms on here disagree about some things and have shown to have their own biases and preferences. In short, they are people. When putting together your application remember that you are a person applying to be reviewed by other people. If you cannot figure out how to appear like a human being then maybe you are not ready to apply. If you consider that the adcom are people then you won't fall into the trap of thinking "who will be accepted between A and B if B has this tiny difference.." or "is it ok if I only take 12 hours??!?" or "should I retake my 36 because WashU's average is 38?!?" Etc.

3. Like the others have said above, do not obsess about numbers. Buy the MSAR, figure out what schools would be a good fit for your career goals AND your numbers. It is good advice to apply broadly but try to have a good sense for the rest of your application outside of simple metrics. Do not apply to a school you do not want to go to just because SDN tells you to. If you would be miserable in NYC then don't apply to Columbia even though you have a 4.0/528. If you couldn't live in a rural area then don't apply to TAMU even if you are within their range, etc. Your application should be smart but not paranoid.

My advice to people joining SDN:

1. Get off SDN.
2. Oh look, you're back you neurotic SOB, now go read @mimelim's post about being a good clerkship student I forget where it is

Then read @bluestreak's advice on interviewing:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/advice-from-20-interviews.980593/



Then read @mehc012 's Anki thread so that you get an A in all of your memorization heavy courses (aka intro bio, psych, biochemistry)
3. Buy the MSAR
4. Go to the socio-political forum to lose any desire to be on SDN.
5. Get off SDN
Click to expand...



Yep. It's like FB. You have to limit it's use, which I shall do starting today. 🙂
 
Lawper said:
The way to use SDN effectively is by consulting the stickied threads, advice threads made by adcoms/attendings, and some study scheduling threads. Search function also helps in acquiring useful information that are hidden in a load of garbage.

However, i would steer clear from much of preallo, WAMC, MCAT and allo forums. While some threads indicate a supportive environment (like class and MCAT date threads), the significant fraction of the forums is corrupted by sheer negativity, bitterness and envy. These forums will have no problem crushing your ego by saying your application is subpar, and you should carry out inefficient and expensive ways (like SMPs for low GPA) to redeem yourself.

The forums are inherently negative and acidic because they serve as an ideal echo chamber for upset people to vent their angers away. This is true in preallo, in allo, in residency forums etc. Ignore them. If you need sincere help on your chances, follow only the advice from adcoms and attendings involved in admissions.

But SDN remains a good place for gathering useful information. Just ignore the huge pile of garbage in the way with effective searching methods
Click to expand...
yes 😀
 
SoppyElk said:
Totally agree. I'm kind new to the site but one thing I see with a lot of the school-specific threads is that people are constantly obsessing over LizzyM scores. While I think that LizzyM is a fantastic way of gaging where you should apply and how competitive your numbers are, I feel as though many people on this site think it's the be-all end-all of the application process. There's life beyond numbers, and I think many adcoms see that. That, and the neurotic 'what are my chances' threads can be a bit overwhelming.
Click to expand...
they use LizzyM score bc it's faster/more efficient than regurgitating your entire application. It's mostly used for those who got an II/acceptance/rejection
 
Affiche said:
Tbh if I'm in a school-specific discussion I don't give a **** about your LizzyM score, I just want to know your complete date lol.
Click to expand...
I honestly don't see the use of those threads after secondaries, unless you're in the mood to be stressed out
 
The premeds I know who don't know what SDN is are the same premeds who are so clueless as to not even know what AMCAS is -- which is pitiful seeing as the prereq for being on SDN is knowing how to use Google.


As for myself, I wouldn't be doing what I am today if it weren't for SDN. I'd have been doomed listening to premed "advisors". I think SDN is fantastic and those who have a strong negative opinion of it probably don't know a whole lot about it, is my guess.
 
pageantry said:
The usefulness of the advice aside, I think the culture of SDN may sometimes reflects a culture of abuse within medicine. There is needless rudeness and cruelty. Posturing. Being on the Internet brings it out too, I guess.

I expect this comes from a lot of young people feeling (and probably being) badly treated in medical school/medicine/life.

It is, however, possible to seek out areas of positivity on here. And that's important.
Click to expand...
It's also possible a lot of people are trollin' because seriously, this is the interwebs.
 
SDN helped me pre-write all of my secondaries thereby allowing me get my secondaries in on time....I would have been stressed out otherwise trying to write 20 secondaries all at once...
 
Last edited:
Lucca said:
My advice to people joining SDN:

1. Get off SDN.
2. Oh look, you're back you neurotic SOB, now go read @mimelim's post about being a good clerkship student I forget where it is

Then read @bluestreak's advice on interviewing:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/advice-from-20-interviews.980593/

Then read @mehc012 's Anki thread so that you get an A in all of your memorization heavy courses (aka intro bio, psych, biochemistry)
3. Buy the MSAR
4. Go to the socio-political forum to lose any desire to be on SDN.
5. Get off SDN
Click to expand...
😆
So true, thank you for this amazing post.
 
A few years ago, I came here and understood the hate for SDN. Vitriol, condescension, ego ... yep, all here. I left. Came back a year ago, and my one post reinforced that whole idea all over again. Nasty, snarky comments when I was looking for a "you can do this" ... BUT

and it is a BIG BUT (not to be confused with Sir Mix-a-lot) ... after rereading my initial post a few months later, I can see how it came off as arrogant. I can see how others perceived my first post as a humble brag and shamed me.

So, I left again. Came back looking for school specific information, waddled over the the other pre-med sections and watched. Said nary a word. I listened to what people told others, I found out how USEFUL the site was, and started piping in here and there.

SDN is now my go-to for information. I sometimes see the negativity and also, more often, the support and positivity. I see the offering by seasoned, sage vets of the site to help others. I see the disagreements and arguments and find them - mostly - intelligent and enlightening.

As someone above said, I think some might come here looking for encouragement with a 2.5 GPA and be unhappy when they are told there's no chance. Well, truth is, there is no chance unless they can show a post-grad GPA that is substantially higher AND a good MCAT score AND EC's out the wazoo AND shadowing. Truth is, they might not like being told the path to MD is probably a 10 year path for them (taking pre-reqs, getting A's, getting 510+ MCAT, getting shadowing hours in, etc).

And then they hate on SDN. I now drink the kool-aid and am thankful, I've been kind of accepted. ~ the Crone 😉
 
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pageantry said:
I thought that's what I was describing?
Click to expand...
There's a difference between trolling and being an a**hole. What you were describing was the former. Trolling, however, is a art. It's done without true malice, as a good troll tries to elicit feelings of anger and foolishness by hitting the absurdity of certain people's personality traits. Like, a jerk is just trying to make someone feel bad. A troll is trying to make someone upset over something they should not be upset about, but only are upset about because of a preexisting character flaw. By making people experience such discomfort in the face of their psychological flaws, it is hoped that they might realized the absurdity of such things, and maybe, just maybe, change for the better. Good trolls troll people that they find fault with not for the sake of merely eliciting a response, but in the hope of breaking people out of patterns of thought that are, at the end of the day, self destructive. At the very least, it is hoped that someone observing might learn something from the encounter by seeing how ridiculously the trollee acts, and thus might become self-aware about such behavior within themselves and avoid it in the future.

Or at least that's my philosophy on trolling. Trolling isn't done with the intent to harm, but to make the world a better place at the end of the day. Hideo Kojima is a great example of a fine troll. He has tried to teach the lesson of not expecting things and enjoying what you have, as well as many lessons about the price of pop-culture obsession. It's been lost on many gamers of the years, because they don't understand the true spirit of trolling. He didn't force people to sit through a three hour interview on Christmas only to reveal a chicken hat option for MGS V to waste their time. He let them do it of their own volition, to make them realize their time had been wasted, that their fandom had cost them three hours of a wonderful day they could have spent doing literally anything else. That maybe, next time they shouldn't hop on the hype train and spend time with their friends and family. That is what a real troll does- induces rage in the shortsighted and unreflective, but introspection in those that take the time to think about their actions and feelings and why they are happening.
WMAAtHP.jpg

Yes, I just wrote a treatise on trolling. Because being an ***hole and a troll are in no way the same thing, and that record needs to be set straight.
 
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