Students specializing

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comatose

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To all current dental students, how many people in your class want to specialize? How many people are in your class? If I have a class size of 55, what rank should I be if I want a realistic shot at endo, ortho, or oral surgery? thanx =)
 
comatose said:
To all current dental students, how many people in your class want to specialize? How many people are in your class? If I have a class size of 55, what rank should I be if I want a realistic shot at endo, ortho, or oral surgery? thanx =)
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At UNLV we have 75 in the class. We dont know from experience what rank you need to specialize, I think it depends on the specialty and also on board scores. To be competetive with rank would mean top 10% for ortho, oms, endo although I think being in the top 30% would not be all that bad for other specialties. I would have to guess that about 30% are contemplating specialties (depending on this next months boards) and that about 20% would actually apply. I know for me its an option that I have not seriously considered yet. However, if I crush the boards I will look at it more as an option. I have not had enough clinical experience to truly say what I like and dont like when considering specialties.
 
Col Sanders said:
I crush the boards I will look at it more as an option. I have not had enough clinical experience to truly say what I like and dont like when considering specialties.
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DITTO
 
How many people in your class want to specialize?

Only about 10 classmates have openly expressed interests to specialize right now and we're 3rd years. There will be more "coming out of the closet" later on I'm sure!

How many people are in your class?

105

What rank should I be if I want a realistic shot at endo, ortho, or oral surgery?

Higher the better!

If you're less than top 20%, then you're chances will decrease tremendeously (not saying you will have no chances of getting in, but it will be much much more difficult, especially for Ortho and Endo)!
 
Yeah, it's hard to say, I can fathom that about 25% of the class wants to specialize (beyond GPR/AEGD). However, I don't think that would include any students who are still considering specialty, and waiting for more clinical exposure to make a hard decision.

Class size, 140 ish.
 
If a dentist wants to specialize after practicing for about 2 decades how will his/her application be looked upon with grades that are very old? I heard of dentists that have decided to specialize after being from school for so long.
 
I'm told in those instances grades are still important, but they aren't the main factor. Also, I got the impression that decent grades (I'm guess 85 and above) are considered fine. It's the experience that's important, but one has to have a good reason to want to specialize after being in private practice for so long.

This is all hearsay, but it makes sense to me.
 
drPheta said:
I'm told in those instances grades are still important, but they aren't the main factor. Also, I got the impression that decent grades (I'm guess 85 and above) are considered fine. It's the experience that's important, but one has to have a good reason to want to specialize after being in private practice for so long.

This is all hearsay, but it makes sense to me.
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The problem is that deans wouldn't know you to write recommendations for you. Anyways I'm going to have to go back to the prothodonticts instructor and ask him this.

I also noticed some people take a detour they do GPR or AEGD and then make it to the specialty program.
 
To clear up any misconceptions about whether or not grades matter after one has been out practicing for several years...in a nutshell I feel strongly that they still matter. Sure the experience helps make your application stronger, but you will always be in large part evaluated by the same criteria as anybody else applying, namely academic performance. The experience helps strengthen your CV, but won't work miracles or compensate for past academic performance that is subpar. Even for a specialty like endo where program directors like to see, or in many cases require experience, you still have to have a fine record to be seriously considered. Why wouldn't a program still look to select the cream of the crop applicants if they have the option of choosing them?

There are ways around subpar grades, but it's always going to be harder to getting in similar to slipping in through a back door. Just do your best in school and if you really want a specialty badly enough, you can find ways to show your dedication (i.e. research, publications, teaching, etc...) Although having a less than strong academic record makes it harder, don't get discouraged. I know someone that applied 3 years in a row and someone else that applied 5 years in a row before they got into an endo program. Their records were fairly decent, but they took the time and effort to continue strengthening their applications year in and year out with research and teaching positions. I even knew of one person who got only 3 interviews for OMS after a GPR and didn't match, but after doing an OMS year long fellowship, coupled with research, got 13 interviews the following year. However, I also know of a few people that applied to ortho and endo for 3 straight years, and despite a fairly decent record (boards around high 80's and low 90's) didn't get in. Maybe they didn't want it badly enough, but they did little to improve their applications through the years.

So don't mess around in dental school and think that just because you head out and work for a few years after graduation, your academic performance during school is no longer taken very seriously. Just do your best and let the cards fall where they may. If you are really dedicated to pursuing a particular specialty, dedicate yourself to it, put in the EXTRA effort, and go for it.
 
very informative!!thanks bc DDS
 
We have 60 and I think about 10 are considering specializing, but we haven't gotten our board scores back. Of the class that just graduated 3-ortho, 1-endo, 1-perio, 1-omfs, 3-pedo, 2 didn't match (1 endo, 1 pedo).
 
Pedo is getting notoriously difficult to match in, according to some recent posts from Dentaltown. Students with 93+ board scores in the top 20% not getting matched as of late.

I suppose nothing is for sure anymore.
 
A few of the above posts surprise me. I figured that pedo would be one of the easiest to match with. Also, why would OMFS be easier to match with than ortho or endo. I guess it depends on the specific program and the strength of it at that particular school.
 
pedo seems to be the trendy specialty right now.

..it seems to be a status symbol in a bunch of barrios to have your kid seen by a hyper pedodentist.

..plus there is a national shortage of pedodontists, so u can pretty much practice wherever u want.
 
The competition to get into certain specialties goes in cycles and changes in line with the profession. Endo used to be a relatively "easy" match. Right now it's hard as heck to get into. I would guess that in the future as more dentists are trained in implants and the costs come down, endo won't be such a hot specialty anymore. More and more people are just going to say "replace it" rather than worry about the hassle and risks of endo. At my school, an implant placement and restoration is actually cheaper than RCT/BU/Crown. Some of the faculty have told me they expect this to be the case in private practice in not too many years. Perio could get really hot if they end up capturing a major chunk of the implant placement market.

Pedo used to be a "walk-on" specialty, but is getting tougher every year. I think a lot of it is the tremendous increase in female dental students we have seen in the last several years. These gals have the same biological urges to bear and nurture children that every woman has, but many are pushing those urges aside to pursue their careers. Pedo let's them feel that they are at least getting in the "nurture" part. (I think that fulfills my politically incorrect quota for the evening.)

Prosth used to be a well-respected and sought after specialty. Now, with fewer patients needing that kind of extensive reconstruction and with new materials and techniques bringing those types of cases within the realm of general dentists prosth programs can't even find enough American grads to fill up their spots.

OMS is dealing with some of the same problems that our medical colleagues are struggling with - at least more so than other dentists. Add in a grueling 4 yr. residency and weekend call and there's no way it's ever going to make the very top of the list.

Everything changes my friend, everything but ortho. 🙂
 
I never considered the female representation in pedo but I think you are probably correct. I concur with the OMFS lifestyle issue, as I have also suggested this in other posts. Just don't mention this to Yah-E cause he might get defensive.
Ortho seems like the way that I would go. The clientele are mainly children and they are at a fairly well behaved age. You get to develop a long term relationship with the them and watch your efforts come to fruition. The training period is only 2 years post-grad compared to 3 or 4 for most others. Beyond that, the pay is great and it can be done in a 9-5.
 
about OS..

i love oral surgery.
...the problem is the opportunity cost is so high (4-6 more years of training)

i'm guessing the length of the residencies limit the # of applications into OMFS

dentite001 said:
A few of the above posts surprise me. I figured that pedo would be one of the easiest to match with. Also, why would OMFS be easier to match with than ortho or endo. I guess it depends on the specific program and the strength of it at that particular school.
Click to expand...
 
me skool rulez!
class size 78
our class has 20+ applying to ortho, about 15 applying to oral surgery
 
my class is 76 deep and i think about 30 ppl want to specialize. I dont know yet if I want to... depends on these darn board scores....
 
badaboom said:
me skool rulez!
class size 78
our class has 20+ applying to ortho, about 15 applying to oral surgery
Click to expand...

what school are you attending? sounds like UF! I thought only my class was this driven... is this a nationwide thing?
 
yikes! 20 people applying to ortho in one class???
we only have 3, the #1, 2, and 3 ranked students (all women too!)
i would hate to have 20, makes it hard to even get out of your own door!
 
WOW 20 ppl applying to ortho out 78?! I guess I should feel lucky. Comparatively my school doesn't have near as many students applying to ortho, but everyone that has applied in the last several years has gotten into a program.

Pedo is a wild card specialty. I don't think you need top grades per se. But you do need good grades and a great personality. This makes it more unpredictable. A student with a 93 may not get in but someone with a 89 and gets along great with the faculty may get in. A couple yrs ago our #1 student did not match in pedo.

Top grades help in omfs, but experience and externships can offset not being in the top 10%. I think that's why omfs is a bit easier than ortho or endo IMO.

Badaboom, are students ranked at your school? Just curious.
 
don't want to change subjects, but with 20 out of your class going for ortho i can see why thoses OEC programs have a fighting chance to survive. 👎

our class has kept relatively quiet about specializing, i am sure they are waiting to see if they can break the elusive 90 benchmark on the NBDE.
 
Comatose,

One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of application to residency programs has to deal (sadly enough) with politics. Many residency programs (especially ortho, endo, OMFS) are very preferrential to their own dental students. The propensity for that is especially true for the top-tier residencies. Most will match or accept a majority of their own dental students.

Also, depending where you do your DDS/DMD training will determine where you need to be in your class. You may be able to get into an ortho residency for example with a top 15-20% ranking from some schools, but not get in with a top 10% from other programs. That has to do with the fact that though there are not dental school rankings any more, there still is a feeling by many dental schools as to which programs are perhaps a little "stronger" than others. Remember, board exams aren't included in your class ranking, too, so a high or low GPA may reflect a ranking different from a board score. The best thing you could do would be to talk to upperclassmen at your dental school and find out where they have applied/ interviewed/ attended (like when you applied to dental school) and get a realistic idea of what you are going up against.

One last thought. The number of students appling from your class in any given year will impact how "in demand" you are as an applicant. For example, typically 4 students from my school (UNC) get into ortho here each year (out of 6 spots, with 4 or 5 applying). Next year there are rumored to be something crazy like a dozen (out of 75 students) applicants. Obviously they can't all attend here even though most are in the top 15% or so of their class...so you can see where it becomes a bit tricky.

Good luck!
 
exactly
class rank doesn't mean a lot
if i were the admission i would think the same
board score is the standard i say
below 90 cut off, throw out the application, don't bother looking at it
the OS at the hospital where i did my rotation had 100+ applying for its 1 spot last year, and it's only a 4 year program. i asked the residents about the process and i was told that they won't even look at the applications with a part 1 below 90.
 
jpollei said:
Comatose,

One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of application to residency programs has to deal (sadly enough) with politics. Many residency programs (especially orhto, endo, OMFS) are very preferrential to their own dental students. The propensity for that is especially true for the top-tier residencies. Most will match or accept a majority of their own dental students.

Also, depending where you do your DDS/DMD training will determine where you need to be in your class. You may be able to get into an ortho residency for example with a top 15-20% ranking from some schools, but not get in with a top 10% from othe programs. That has to do with the fact that though there are not dental school rankings any more, there still is a feeling by many dental schools as to which programs are perhaps a little "stronger" than others. Remember, board exams aren't included in your class ranking, too, so a high or low GPA may reflect a ranking different from a board score. The best thing you could do would be to talk to upperclassmen at your dental school and find out where they have applied/ interviewed/ attended (like when you applied to dental school) and get a realistic idea of what you are going up against.

One last thought. The number of students appling from your class in any given year will impact how "in demand" you are as an applicant. For example, typically 4 students from my school (UNC) get into ortho here each year (out of 6 spots, with 4 or 5 applying). Next year there are rumored to be something crazy like a dozen (out of 75 students) applicants. Obviously they can't all attend here even though most are in the top 15% or so of their class...so you can see where it becomes a bit tricky.

Good luck!
Click to expand...

I agree to an extent. While many programs give preference to their own students, I'd guess it unusual for programs to accept their own predocs for more than half their spots. 4 out of 6 doesn't seem the norm. In ortho, Houston and other tx schools often take 2 or 3 (out of 6) of their own. Is this not more the trend at other schools? Maybe it's splitting hairs.

Also, I think the school's "strength" that you go to has little to do with your chances at other schools. Is this not purpose of the national boards? Assuming you get a 93, I doubt it matters whether you come from Harvard or a lower ranked school, but perhaps I'm naive. I do believe there is a tendency to interview students who are of the same "region". For example, I know of a couple of students with 95+ from Houston who where offered a plethora of ortho interviews in the South, Midwest, and East, but were not offered them in the far west (Oregon Washington etc). Presumably because those schools thought there was little chance in attracting a student way out there. I do agree that you should ask successful graduates of your school where they applied.

Wow, that's amazing that the majority of your top 15% is going for ortho this year. I'd hate to be in that pool.
 
Fair reply by DDSSlave. I can't say the majority of residencies preferentially accept their own, I was just saying here for ortho as an example. Obviously they want those applicants who they feel are the most qualified. This may be, as DDSSlave stated, a localized phenomenon for certain schools and residencies. And a 95 on boards in California is the same as a 95 in New York...so programs are able to complare with some objectivity. I still believe the DDS/DMD program you attend holds some weight (at least according to the grad faculty at other programs I've spoken with); though obviously that's just one of many factors considered.

I also agree there is truth to the "regionalization" idea...I know of applicants to surgery and ortho programs among others who were sub-90 on boards but still received a number of interview offers to programs in nearby states. Perhaps this may also be attributed somewhat to connections had by the faculty within your own graduate department (i.e. if the dept. chair trained or taught elsewhere, you may be more likely to be considered at that program if you get a letter from that faculty member). Just a thought.

Oh, glad I'm not a 2005 ortho gunner, too.
 
unfortunately im an ortho gunner 2005

yes houston has taken 2 students from san antonio for the last 3 years+ in a a row, so that half the clinic is called the "alamo"
 
jpollei said:
Next year there are rumored to be something crazy like a dozen (out of 75 students) applicants. Obviously they can't all attend here even though most are in the top 15% or so of their class...so you can see where it becomes a bit tricky.
Click to expand...

What is up with the number of ortho applicants this year? At my school, at least 15 of us will apply. The rumor with the other nearby school is that 20-30 of their students will apply--all with exceptional stats!!
 
texas_dds said:
unfortunately im an ortho gunner 2005

yes houston has taken 2 students from san antonio for the last 3 years+ in a a row, so that half the clinic is called the "alamo"
Click to expand...

Just to let you know, this year will probably be a low year for Houston with only 2 students (so far) applying for ortho. Definitely a better chance (to get into Houston at least) compared to 2004 and 2006. How many SA students are applying with you?
 
Ortho gunner 2005 here.

Although now that I have graduated dental school, all gunner feelings have happily been left behind in another era. It is a wonderful feeling to know that I don't have to worry about rank and boards anymore b/c there is nothing I can do to affect those stress inducing numbers anymore.

If anyone is interested, I interviewed at the San Antonio ortho program last year. I am not reapplying there this year, PM me if you want anymore info.
 
TrojanDDS said:
What is up with the number of ortho applicants this year? At my school, at least 15 of us will apply. The rumor with the other nearby school is that 20-30 of their students will apply--all with exceptional stats!!
Click to expand...

Seems everybody loves ortho. Call me crazy, orthodontists who I have spoken to do like what they do, but it seems quite boring. I guess $$ motivates a lot of people? Any thoughts? I am not attacking people wanting to go into orthodontics, but I am curious to see why SOOO many people just HAVE to go into the field.

-Mike
 
badaboom said:
me skool rulez!
class size 78
our class has 20+ applying to ortho, about 15 applying to oral surgery
Click to expand...


DAMN!!! So badaboom, honest question here....how does going to Columbia or any other similar type of competitive school "increase" your chances of getting into a specialty if everyone in your class wants the same thing?
 
Dr.BadVibes said:
DAMN!!! So badaboom, honest question here....how does going to Columbia or any other similar type of competitive school "increase" your chances of getting into a specialty if everyone in your class wants the same thing?
Click to expand...

HONESTLY
i dunno

me ain't applying for specialty

but i suppose there's a "support group" type of thing that u get to talk to other applicants in the class?
i know of only 2 guys out of the 20+ applying for ortho, the rest are all females
 
Ortho is a funny specialty. Those people who want to do it have to work their butts off for four years trying to be the best in all aspects of dentistry because when they graduate they hope to never do dentistry again. Kind of ironic.

I shadowed an orthodontist and I also thought it seemed a little boring. Maybe there was more going on there that I just didn't understand. I hope I don't offend too many people here but I think money is one of the main draws for ortho. That seems to be the case in my class for sure. Ortho is about the only specialty you apply to having practically no experience in the field, so it's not like these people are exposed to it in clinic/externships and just fall in love with it. Many of them know that's what they're shooting for before even starting school. How many people in your class showed up on the first day saying they wanted to be a periodontist?

I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong with wanting to do ortho for the money, that just seems to be a big part of the equation. I'm pretty sure all the up and coming applicants judiciously edit that out of their applications though. 😉
 
several good reasons for choosing ortho

1. it's clean, no blood no aersol no diseases cuz most of ur pts are kids
2. it's easy (rather boring actually)
3. it's money, what else

having said that i still don't wanna be bending wires for the rest of my life
 
Also, most of your patients want your services. Nobody wants fillings and crowns.
 
badaboom said:
me skool rulez!
class size 78
our class has 20+ applying to ortho, about 15 applying to oral surgery
Click to expand...

hi there badaboom!
that's a really scary avatar....
can you tell me what school you're in?

thanks
 
Must agree with SpongeBobDDS...we're fortunate to have opportunities (several if we want them) to treat a variety of ortho cases, but I understand many dental programs don't have that luxury.

I don't understand how you could apply to a program and not have ANY experience actually placing brackets, phasing wires, scripting appliances, etc. Even if you do have an ortho "case" as a dental student, most times it's not as involved as the typical ortho case (full mouth, 2 year treatment window). If I hadn't already started to treat a simple and a (potential) extraction case, I don't think I'd have any idea what it entails. (Though I realize two cases does not an orthodontist make!)

Also, knowing that some ortho programs are only 2 years, it seems like even those aren't as comprehensive as a three year program STRICTLY from the perspective that if the average case is about two years and you're only training for two years, you won't start and complete many of the same patients. Might be nice to see the before and after on a hundred people before you go off doing it for the rest of your career. Just a thought.
 
when you guys were applying to dental schools, did anyone openly express that you wanted to specialize either in the essay or in the interview? i heard this is a bad idea, since the adcom will doubt your sincerity for being a gp if you don't become a specialist. any comments?

thanks!
 
badaboom said:
several good reasons for choosing ortho

1. it's clean, no blood no aersol no diseases cuz most of ur pts are kids
2. it's easy (rather boring actually)
3. it's money, what else

having said that i still don't wanna be bending wires for the rest of my life
Click to expand...

The reason ortho didnt attract me is that treatments often times take more than 1 year to complete........and the 1 year treatments only deal with minor crowding that really doesnt make a difference in the first place. I like instant gratification! 😎

Just listing my reason........no bashing intended. 😀

I think it kinda sucks to have so many people from a school applying for the same speciality. You want to encourage and help each other through the application process while at the same time, you are competing for the limited number of spots nationwide..............sort of a love/hate relationship. :scared:
 
Dr.BadVibes said:
DAMN!!! So badaboom, honest question here....how does going to Columbia or any other similar type of competitive school "increase" your chances of getting into a specialty if everyone in your class wants the same thing?
Click to expand...

In very general terms, more students who want to specialize = greater difficulty ranking high in the class and more cutthroat competition.

Of course, this is seen to greater or lesser degrees, but it certainly would suck to have a 3.8 GPA and not be ranked in the top 10 or even 15, which could certainly happen.
 
badaboom said:
several good reasons for choosing ortho

1. it's clean, no blood no aersol no diseases cuz most of ur pts are kids
2. it's easy (rather boring actually)
3. it's money, what else
Click to expand...

More reasons for doing ortho:

4. no injections
5. opportunity to build longer-term relationships with your patients (as opposed to endo where you could just treat 1 tooth and never see the patient again)
6. gratification that you really are changing someone's smile

Honest, I would do ortho even if the $ was less than GP. I tell this to classmates and they are shocked, but ortho is what interests me.
 
Halitosis said:
when you guys were applying to dental schools, did anyone openly express that you wanted to specialize either in the essay or in the interview? i heard this is a bad idea, since the adcom will doubt your sincerity for being a gp if you don't become a specialist. any comments?

thanks!
Click to expand...

Yeah I've heard this from a couple of dentists that you shouldn't really mention specializing when applying because some of the adcoms don't like it.
 
pmoney said:
Yeah I've heard this from a couple of dentists that you shouldn't really mention specializing when applying because some of the adcoms don't like it.
Click to expand...

I would just be honest... If you are really interested in a particular speciality I would mention it in your personal statement. However, do not imply that you are uninterested in being a GP. I mentioned specializing in my app and it didn't hurt me at all, in fact i think it helped. As long as you make it sound like you are still keeping your options open and you're not ruling out GP, you'll be fine.
 
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