Study drugs in med school

[Mad Jack]

I had an EEG, MRI, several psychometric testing sessions with a clinical psychologist and a neuropsychologist (including IQ tests, tests of visuospatial reasoning, etc.), multiple questionnaires filled out by different teachers and several years of attempts with one-on-one occupational therapy and behavioral modification. I then failed Straterra treatment (well, I am told it helped a little but nowhere near enough), before I finally got prescribed Ritalin.

I get that my experience might be slightly more intense than most, but still . . . It wasn't like "Wahh! I can't concentrate!" "Okay, here's Ritalin."

OP also has likely never been on amphetamines. I have diagnosed ADHD, and amphetamines did nothing but make me a zombie. I didn't even focus better, I just kind of lost some part of my personality I can't quite describe, resulting in a complete inability to carry on conversations and a total loss of my sense of humor. Amphetamines aren't some magic pill that turns you into some kind of genius superhuman. They just amplify alertness, and not always in a good way.

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[sloop]

OP also has likely never been on amphetamines. I have diagnosed ADHD, and amphetamines did nothing but make me a zombie. I didn't even focus better, I just kind of lost some part of my personality I can't quite describe, resulting in a complete inability to carry on conversations and a total loss of my sense of humor. Amphetamines aren't some magic pill that turns you into some kind of genius superhuman. They just amplify alertness, and not always in a good way.

Yeah, honestly my experience is that the drugs don't help as much unless you can already muster up motivation to do the work. Otherwise you just wind up doing 20 minutes of work followed by 3 and a half hours of History Channel documentaries on YouTube.

 

[Foot Fetish]

OP also has likely never been on amphetamines. I have diagnosed ADHD, and amphetamines did nothing but make me a zombie. I didn't even focus better, I just kind of lost some part of my personality I can't quite describe, resulting in a complete inability to carry on conversations and a total loss of my sense of humor. Amphetamines aren't some magic pill that turns you into some kind of genius superhuman. They just amplify alertness, and not always in a good way.

Isn't amphetamine supposed to affect people with ADD differently than people without ADD?

 

[Mad Jack]

Isn't amphetamine supposed to affect people with ADD differently than people without ADD?

Supposedly, yeah. I've only had my ADD-based experience with it. It was so bad I stopped taking them after about a month when I was in junior high and never touched them again. **** amphetamines. So in that regard, I really couldn't say, as I only have my n=1 experience.

 

[sloop]

Isn't amphetamine supposed to affect people with ADD differently than people without ADD?

I would never recommend Ritalin to people who don't need to take it. This is not because I have some puritanical issue with using drugs recreationally, but because I can't imagine it to be worth it.

I have a pretty bad headache and drowsiness every afternoon and a good third of the time I have to force myself to eat lunch when I have no interest in food. If I don't tell people who know me well that I'm on it, they will keep asking me if anything is wrong until they finally ask if I'm on Ritalin. It's not really a fun drug, IMO.

But it helps me to realize my potential and when I climb into bed at night I don't beat myself up with self-criticism about what I've failed to do or how I've let myself down. That is fun.

 

[meurotic]

I hear dropping acid is the next big thing that medical students are using to gain an unfair advantage.

 

[Foot Fetish]

I hear dropping acid is the next big thing that medical students are using to gain an unfair advantage.

Dude, this M3 at my school said he got a 272 on Step 1 by doing "jenkem." It's the next big thing in smart drugs apparently.

 

[meurotic]

Dude, this M3 at my school said he got a 272 on Step 1 by doing "jenkem." It's the next big thing in smart drugs apparently.

I'll definitely give this a try. I'm thinking a vyvanse/jenkem/bath salts cocktail will definitely land me a spot in derm.

 

[Taddy Mason]

Dude, this M3 at my school said he got a 272 on Step 1 by doing "jenkem." It's the next big thing in smart drugs apparently.

Ah, so you are a troll. A ****ty troll, but none the less a troll.

 

[oOKawaiiOo]

I pity you normies. You will never know the pleasures of lusting after beautiful feet. I am basically in heaven every spring/summer when girls start busting out the flip flops....makes it hard to focus in class sometimes though lol....

Feet doesnt appeal to me. You can have all of them.

But I'm a sucker for pretty faces / intellectual personalities..... So I guess im in heaven 5/7 days a week?

 

[Foot Fetish]

I'm a sucker for intellectual personalities.....

 

[cbrons]

It's not unfair if you have a legitimate medical need for it. It is unfair if you have normal neurochemistry. You know how some people get extra time on exams if they have a learning disability? It would be like pretending to have that just so you could get extra time on an exam. Totally not cool.

Lol. Most med students with "ADHD" are just tired and bored. And by most, I mean >95%. (I was diagnosed with "ADHD" when I was 6 years old, and re-diagnosed a bunch of times throughout life, so don't think I am judging anyone, I just find the disease entity itself highly questionable).

It's extremely easy to get a diagnosis of ADHD and obtain stimulants. In the idiotic state I am currently in, they recently started allowing nurse practitioners and PAs to prescribe schedule IIs. The result has been a huge increase in inappropriate opioid, benzo, and amphetamine Rx's. One NP proudly proclaimed that all she does is write stimulant prescriptions all day for little kids.

Lol. 2 years of online NP school and shadowing like a pre-med now makes you qualified to give 5 year olds methylphenidate. Some dumb country we live in.

 

[cbrons]

That drugs are "bad" is a largely subjective assessment. Objectively, can we state that all of the illegal drugs out there are bad? Many are simply deemed "not having any medical or therapeutic use," but since when is something not being useful worth making it illegal?

Drugs being illegal largely goes back to Christian ideals of sobriety that had roots in the Old Testament. There isn't some objective basis for determining that mind-altered states are bad, and in many cultures and religions throughout history, such experiences have been considered divine rather than a societal ill. That drugs are illegal is therefore more a historical curiosity, a vestigial remnant of laws based upon the founding religion of our forefathers.

Go try to drink alcohol in public over in Saudi Arabia or Yemen. There ain't any "Christian ideals" at play there.

 

[cbrons]

I had an EEG, MRI, several psychometric testing sessions with a clinical psychologist and a neuropsychologist (including IQ tests, tests of visuospatial reasoning, etc.), multiple questionnaires filled out by different teachers and several years of attempts with one-on-one " and behavioral modification. I then failed Straterra treatment (well, I am told it helped a little but nowhere near enough), before I finally got prescribed Ritalin.

I get that my experience might be slightly more intense than most, but still . . . It wasn't like "Wahh! I can't concentrate!" "Okay, here's Ritalin."

All that just for a ritalin, eh? Most kids just go to their local NP or family med doc, say they are a med student, and walk out 5 minutes later with an Rx for Adderall XR.

"occupational therapy"
LMAO

 

[badasshairday]

Go try to drink alcohol in public over in Saudi Arabia or Yemen. There ain't any "Christian ideals" at play there.

Ok. Abrahamic ideals.

 

[sloop]

All that just for a ritalin, eh? Most kids just go to their local NP or family med doc, say they are a med student, and walk out 5 minutes later with an Rx for Adderall XR.

"occupational therapy"
LMAO

At first they thought I might have absence epilepsy. The occupational therapy was to try to help me with my horrendous organizational skills at the time. There were also a couple of things about my particular case (which eventually resolved) that made it especially advisable to avoid stimulants if possible, hence straterra.

You can refuse to believe me, but this was my experience. I think it was the experience of someone with good doctors who wanted to thoroughly rule out likely alternative diagnoses before jumping to a psychiatric cause and use the least invasive option to fix the problem. Maybe what you describe does happen, perhaps quite a bit. I'm just saying that it isn't everyone's experience.

Also: What's so funny about occupational therapy?

 

[Mad Jack]

Go try to drink alcohol in public over in Saudi Arabia or Yemen. There ain't any "Christian ideals" at play there.

All of the Abrahamic religions have the same hang-up, as it is rooted in the earliest parts of the OT from which Judaism, Christianity, and Islam were ultimately crafted.

 

[Mr Roboto]

Go try to drink alcohol in public over in Saudi Arabia or Yemen. There ain't any "Christian ideals" at play there.

Well since he was talking about the USA, not Yemen or Saudi Arabia...

 

[Perfect Hair Day]

That drugs are "bad" is a largely subjective assessment. Objectively, can we state that all of the illegal drugs out there are bad? Many are simply deemed "not having any medical or therapeutic use," but since when is something not being useful worth making it illegal?

Drugs being illegal largely goes back to Christian ideals of sobriety that had roots in the Old Testament. There isn't some objective basis for determining that mind-altered states are bad, and in many cultures and religions throughout history, such experiences have been considered divine rather than a societal ill. That drugs are illegal is therefore more a historical curiosity, a vestigial remnant of laws based upon the founding religion of our forefathers.

I don't know about you, but I'm not so concerned with someone fulfilling their divine euphoric state when on planet earth they have AMS behind the wheel of a car and create an unsafe environment for those around them. It's 2016. C'mon.

 

[prochronism]

There may be evidence that said drugs are cognitive-enhancing or performance-increasing, but many of the studies were on people already diagnosed with attention disorders. I would expect treatment results in normal populations to be different and vary considerably between people. Also many were not long term, and as others have said: probably not the yield you are seeking, at least not consistently (i.e. cramming for 72hrs and doing well on an exam you didn't study ahead for but grade would not have improved significantly over the course). You still need the motivation and work ethic like anyone not on attention treating drugs or you may rely on them.
I also am skeptical of how some stimulants might interact with other mechanisms, especially long term and if there are counteracting effects coming off them. There are always nootropics and herbals like panax ginseng to experiment without an rx.

tldr; I don't think there is an unfair advantage due to possible longer term and adverse effects on populations without attention disorders.

 

[Mad Jack]

I don't know about you, but I'm not so concerned with someone fulfilling their divine euphoric state when on planet earth they have AMS behind the wheel of a car and create an unsafe environment for those around them. It's 2016. C'mon.

That someone might be altered while driving is not a reason to make something illegal. There's a lot of things you can do while driving that can cause accidents, the legal way of dealing with that is to make it illegal to drive while doing those things. Look at drinking and driving, texting and driving, use of legal pharmaceuticals and driving, driving with certain medical conditions, etc.

 

[Foot Fetish]

More than 50% of my class is on adderall. I'm not, but I've been considering it.

>50% ??? That seems extreme. Are you just conjecturing?

Why can't people just have some discipline and work ethic?

 

[Isotopes]

I just stick to caffeine. Nice and legal.

 

[Perfect Hair Day]

That someone might be altered while driving is not a reason to make something illegal. There's a lot of things you can do while driving that can cause accidents, the legal way of dealing with that is to make it illegal to drive while doing those things. Look at drinking and driving, texting and driving, use of legal pharmaceuticals and driving, driving with certain medical conditions, etc.

By itself, no. If someone is smoking pot in their basement, as they come down from the high and their euphoria passes, they may feel prepared to get behind the wheel of a car. The motor ******ation effects of cannabis are longer-lasting than the euphoric effects - so the person is no longer "high" but still is creating a danger unto those around them. You don't have to be under the influence necessarily to still cause harm unto society, or ones-self for that matter. To be clear, I was specifically talking about operating a motor vehicle under the influence - you introduced the legality discussion here - I was pointing out the foolishness of your notion that religious convictions of ancient societies make substance abuse permissible in a modern society.

 

[Mad Jack]

By itself, no. If someone is smoking pot in their basement, as they come down from the high and their euphoria passes, they may feel prepared to get behind the wheel of a car. The motor ******ation effects of cannabis are longer-lasting than the euphoric effects - so the person is no longer "high" but still is creating a danger unto those around them. You don't have to be under the influence necessarily to still cause harm unto society, or ones-self for that matter. To be clear, I was specifically talking about operating a motor vehicle under the influence - you introduced the legality discussion here - I was pointing out the foolishness of your notion that religious convictions of ancient societies make substance abuse permissible in a modern society.

Do you drink? Have you ever driven drunk? I do and I haven't- It's a matter of personal responsibility. That some people might be irresponsible with a given thing is not a default basis for making it illegal.

 

[Perfect Hair Day]

Do you drink? Have you ever driven drunk? I do and I haven't- It's a matter of personal responsibility. That some people might be irresponsible with a given thing is not a default basis for making it illegal.

I'm not prepared to discuss my habits here, but the example you are citing is distinct from the quote you seem to want to refute. Apples and oranges friend, apples and oranges.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm not prepared to discuss my habits here, but the example you are citing is distinct from the quote you seem to want to refute. Apples and oranges friend, apples and oranges.

My last statement is still entirely true.

 

[Perfect Hair Day]

My last statement is still entirely true.

No argument there, but it's several steps away from the point I originally made so I'm uncertain why bother mentioning it here.

 

[NotYou20]

That can be easily faked. It's not like a blood test. When it comes to mental diseases, all you have to go by is the patients' behavior and HPI. Consider the PHQ9. Anyone could go in and get prescribed antidepressants just by filling out a maximum score on the questionnaire...same thing for ADD. All it takes is saying that you can't focus and then pretending like you can't focus if they test you.

A lot of lazy people would get their speed taken away if we had a biochemical test for ADD.

As someone who's also also under a month into medical school I can confirm this is true and that you're an expert on diagnosing mental disorders, as am i.

 

[Mad Jack]

No argument there, but it's several steps away from the point I originally made so I'm uncertain why bother mentioning it here.

Because I am big on tangents. Who cares what the original point was, the statement still stands.

 

[IsleyOfTheNorth]

That some people might be irresponsible with a given thing is not a default basis for making it illegal.

And yet, CVS stopped selling pseudoephedrine in West Virginia. Ok, it's not technically illegal yet, but if you can't buy it, it might as well be.

If the threat isn't people being irresponsible, why isn't cocaine legal? Or heroin?

 

[Mad Jack]

And yet, CVS stopped selling pseudoephedrine in West Virginia. Ok, it's not technically illegal yet, but if you can't buy it, it might as well be.

If the threat isn't people being irresponsible, why isn't cocaine legal? Or heroin?

Those are illegal because of a triplicate issue of their being addictive, being dangerous in high doses, and being potentially fatal even in lower doses to those who are unfamiliar with them. Not all mind altering drugs are addictive or deadly.

 

[IsleyOfTheNorth]

Those are illegal because of a triplicate issue of their being addictive, being dangerous in high doses, and being potentially fatal even in lower doses to those who are unfamiliar with them.

I'm just saying, those all sound like things that an irresponsible person would do (and a responsible person would not do):

• Allow themselves to become addicted and/or not recognizing addicting behaviors and/or not seeking help
• Take too much
• Not familiarize themselves with what they're putting into their bodies.

I think you need to adjust your statement to something a little softer like:
Things are made illegal because most people would have difficulty not being irresponsible with them.

 

[Perfect Hair Day]

If you're looking for an advantage in medical school with "brain P.E.D.s", ask your doctor about Cogentin. Please report back to us and let us know how it works out for you

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm just saying, those all sound like things that an irresponsible person would do (and a responsible person would not do):

• Allow themselves to become addicted and/or not recognizing addicting behaviors and/or not seeking help
• Take too much
• Not familiarize themselves with what they're putting into their bodies.

I think you need to adjust your statement to something a little softer like:
Things are made illegal because most people would have difficulty not being irresponsible with them.

Except that is entirely wrong, as has been proven in multiple countries with broad legalization campaigns. Only a small subset of people are prone to being addicted to a given substance- the trouble is you never know what the substance might be before you try it. There are plenty of experiments that have offered animals either unlimited drugs or a variable and complex entertainment environment, and animals pretty much universally stop utilizing drugs when conditions are beyond a certain point, which bolsters the argument that drugs are a symptom rather than the problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal

 

[Perfect Hair Day]

Except that is entirely wrong, as has been proven in multiple countries with broad legalization campaigns. Only a small subset of people are prone to being addicted to a given substance- the trouble is you never know what the substance might be before you try it. There are plenty of experiments that have offered animals either unlimited drugs or a variable and complex entertainment environment, and animals pretty much universally stop utilizing drugs when conditions are beyond a certain point, which bolsters the argument that drugs are a symptom rather than the problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal

Provide real sources. Wikipedia articles shouldn't drive patient care and thusly should not drive our opinions on equally deep or complicated subjects.

 

[Mad Jack]

Provide real sources. Wikipedia articles shouldn't drive patient care and thusly should not drive our opinions on equally deep or complicated subjects.

These are extremely well known topics. Wikipedia is sufficient on something that has been studied for nearly fifty years, just as it is sufficient on something that is official national policy with published official governmental statistics. You should have learned about the Rat Park in basic psychology, and Portugal publishes their statistics on drugs and addiction yearly like every other national government. How you fail to accept one of the most well known research studies in all of addiction medicine and the literal facts of a nation are beyond me.

 

[Perfect Hair Day]

These are extremely well known topics. Wikipedia is sufficient on something that has been studied for nearly fifty years, just as it is sufficient on something that is official national policy with published official governmental statistics. You should have learned about the Rat Park in basic psychology, and Portugal publishes their statistics on drugs and addiction yearly like every other national government. How you fail to accept one of the most well known research studies in all of addiction medicine and the literal facts of a nation are beyond me.

But but but...I didn't.

 

[Mad Jack]

But but but...I didn't.

Your psych class sucked dude. This is right up there with the Stanford Prison Experiment so far as basic psych goes.

 

[Perfect Hair Day]

Your psych class sucked dude. This is right up there with the Stanford Prison Experiment so far as basic psych goes.

My Psych rotation sucks too! I just can't get a break!

 

[IsleyOfTheNorth]

Those are illegal because of a triplicate issue of their being addictive, being dangerous in high doses, and being potentially fatal even in lower doses to those who are unfamiliar with them.

Tobacco is addictive, dangerous in high doses, and carcinogenic. Status: legal
Alcohol can be addictive, is dangerous in high doses, and can cause instant death for the user and innocents when paired with a motor vehicle. Status: legal

Here's why I think heroin and cocaine illegal - I believe the addiction to them is so strong that people are willing to do bad things to acquire them, such as burglary or assault.

That some people might be irresponsible with a given thing is not a default basis for making it illegal.

This is pretty much the only legal argument for the continued erosion of the right to bear arms in the US. In Japan, handguns are completely banned - and not because they're addictive.

 

[Mad Jack]

Tobacco is addictive, dangerous in high doses, and carcinogenic. Status: legal
Alcohol can be addictive, is dangerous in high doses, and can cause instant death for the user and innocents when paired with a motor vehicle. Status: legal

Here's why I think heroin and cocaine illegal - I believe the addiction to them is so strong that people are willing to do bad things to acquire them, such as burglary or assault.



This is pretty much the only legal argument for the continued erosion of the right to bear arms in the US. In Japan, handguns are completely banned - and not because they're addictive.

That's a bit of a misconception by those that are not familiar with actual addiction science- the vast majority of drug users, even of hard substances, are not a threat to anyone. A small minority goes over the deep end, but you have to be wired that way for it to occur. Some people do cocaine and they're like, "whatevs." Some people do heroin and just don't have the urge to do so again. But occasionally there's people that just get hit right in their wiring and can't get enough. Who those people are is a mix of nature and nurture, and not an essential property of the drugs themselves, hence why legalization in other nations has not been met with massive increases in crime or addiction rates (rather, both crime and addiction rates have dropped in Portugal).

Far more people are killed by alcohol and guns than heroin or cocaine each year. One could argue that that is a result of their legality status, but actual statistics in countries and districts where legalization has occurred has not bore out assumptions in that regard.

 

[Taddy Mason]

Tobacco is addictive, dangerous in high doses, and carcinogenic. Status: legal
Alcohol can be addictive, is dangerous in high doses, and can cause instant death for the user and innocents when paired with a motor vehicle. Status: legal

Here's why I think heroin and cocaine illegal - I believe the addiction to them is so strong that people are willing to do bad things to acquire them, such as burglary or assault.



This is pretty much the only legal argument for the continued erosion of the right to bear arms in the US. In Japan, handguns are completely banned - and not because they're addictive.

The legality of a number of substances is largely rooted in the history of political lobbying and societal norms more so than hard scientific evidence regarding safety and addiction.

 

[Mr Roboto]

Tobacco is addictive, dangerous in high doses, and carcinogenic. Status: legal
Alcohol can be addictive, is dangerous in high doses, and can cause instant death for the user and innocents when paired with a motor vehicle. Status: legal

Here's why I think heroin and cocaine illegal - I believe the addiction to them is so strong that people are willing to do bad things to acquire them, such as burglary or assault.

You don't think alcoholic can do bad things to acquire alcohol?

 

[Imgonnatrymybest.]

3rd year here. Don't usually post but this one was too good to pass on just because I know there are hundreds of M1s/OMS1s that are reading this misguided thread and giving their local psychs a call for evals.
~~~
If you don't have ADHD Aderall can have a net negative impact on cognition, believe it or not. I've seen throughout med school. I have many friends that started using Aderall legally and test scores dropped, mental health status dropped, memory retention dropped. I have one good friend who told me a few years ago (when we were OMS2) that he started taking it and a month later, during the first exam, he noticed that it was actually taking him LONGER to complete an exam because he was spending time scrutinizing different words on exam questions and other bizarre behaviors. He continued using it for another month and when he realized his test scores dropped, he stopped taking them and his test scores improved afterwards.


These aren't vitamins kids. These are hardcore drugs that seriously mess with your brain chemistry. It's bet to avoid them if you do not meet or exceed the requirements set forth by the competent authorities (i.e: DSM/academic psychiatrists NOT your local psychiatrist whose desperate for more patients or the local NP)

 

[cbrons]

At first they thought I might have absence epilepsy. The occupational therapy was to try to help me with my horrendous organizational skills at the time. There were also a couple of things about my particular case (which eventually resolved) that made it especially advisable to avoid stimulants if possible, hence straterra.

You can refuse to believe me, but this was my experience. I think it was the experience of someone with good doctors who wanted to thoroughly rule out likely alternative diagnoses before jumping to a psychiatric cause and use the least invasive option to fix the problem. Maybe what you describe does happen, perhaps quite a bit. I'm just saying that it isn't everyone's experience.

Also: What's so funny about occupational therapy?

Whats funny is those quacks made you do all that rubbish just to get some ritalin

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile

 

[Spectre of Ockham]

All stimulants will give you brain damage . Even coffee can mess with the memory if taken in high doses. Modafinil is suppose to the the only thing that's not a brain death sentence but it also has a bucket list of side effects so the only question is how much will you **** yourself up.