Study in Australia or the US?

[Threnody]

Hi all, I hope I have the right forum.

I'm 25 years old, and I will be starting my first year of Medicine at UWA come 2009. I was actually accepted to start this year, but I deferred due to poor health.

For some background, as a mature aged student (and not being a recent school leaver) I gained entry into UWA via an alternate pathway, completing a year of foundation units followed by a pre-Medicine course.

My quandary is this. My boyfriend lives in the US, and I have been tossing around the idea of moving overseas with him sometime in the future - certainly, within the 6 years it would take me to complete my Med degree at UWA.

I'd like to know the benefits of studying Medicine in the US, and studying here in Australia. My understanding of studying in the US is 4 years undergrad, 4 years med, followed by residency. Of course, there would be several other prerequisites I'd have to meet before that, as an international student.

How do US universities treat international students? Will I have a hard time gaining admission to a university? (I am looking at something like LSU.) On the other hand, if I were to pursue my degree here in Australia, how difficult would it be to relocate to the US at the end of it and begin working? Is an education from an American university more promising for employment?

We will be living permanently in the US, if this helps, and I'm prepared to do what is necessary to get entry into a school in the US; I'm no stranger to bridging courses and gaining qualifications. I am just completely in the dark about whether or not studying here or there would be better in the long run.

I'm sorry if I'm asking some pretty simple stuff. I just started looking into this possibility, so I'm trying to figure things out. Thanks!

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[Winged Scapula]

How do US universities treat international students? Will I have a hard time gaining admission to a university? (I am looking at something like LSU.)

Most US medical schools require that you have completed your undergraduate degree in the US or at least 90 units. Therefore, you are ineligible to attend medical school in the US at this point in time without repeating much of your degree.

On the other hand, if I were to pursue my degree here in Australia, how difficult would it be to relocate to the US at the end of it and begin working? Is an education from an American university more promising for employment?

It would be easier than repeating 90 unit of your undergraduate degree, trying to get into a medical school in the US (of which only the private schools would likely accept you, as state schools generally accept state tax paying residents and many of the private schools will require you to show that you have the full 4 years of living expenses and tuition [perhaps $200K USD] in trust).

If you are not a US citizen, have not completed an undergraduate US degree, your chances of getting into a US medical school are slim to none. Your chances are much greater if you complete medical school in Oz and then attempt to come to the US for residency. However, this door is closing, with more medical schools being built and fewer positions available for FMGs; the answer may be different in the 6 years it takes you to complete your medical degree.

We will be living permanently in the US, if this helps, and I'm prepared to do what is necessary to get entry into a school in the US; I'm no stranger to bridging courses and gaining qualifications. I am just completely in the dark about whether or not studying here or there would be better in the long run.

Piece of advice: do not move to the US for someone who is only a BF and who has not made a lifetime commitment to you.

Back on topic...as noted above, you can move to the US and try to get into a US undergrad, complete 90 units, take the MCAT and see if you can get into a US medical school. This will take longer than staying in Oz for medical school but you would be together.

Things to consider:

getting US citizenship vs PR; this will make applications easier.

will you be able to get a visa to come to the US for that length of time

how will you pay for medical education in the US? Medical school here is very expensive; right now your chances of getting into someplace like LSU as a non-citizen, non-resident is slim to none. Every state has its own requirements as to how long you have to live there before they will consider you for in state tuition.

There are lots of threads here and in the Pre-Allo forum about how this works. The American Association of Medical Colleges publishes a book called the MSAR (Medical School Admission Requirements) which might be a good idea to check out and see which schools might consider non US citizens.

 

[JohnnyRockets]

Very few US medical schools take international students, and few will recognize course work taken outside North America. Dropping an opportunity like medical school for your boyfriend in Louisiana in my opinion is not a good idea. Frankly most women I know think Aussie guys are hotter.

 

[gmacpac]

I agree, while it is possible to gain entry into U.S medical school as an international student. It is extremely tough to do so given the massive numbers of USA applicants. Keep in mind many of USA students end up going abroad because they could not get accepted to a USA medical school (for academic or non-academic reasons).

Your post suggests that you are an Australian citizen. Am I correct? Which means that if you do relocate to USA and try to get a PR/Citizen status you will need to have a very strong application to get approved. Even though you are from Australia (a USA friendly country), USA visa applications are also very back logged. Which means you can either come to USA on a visitor visa, which is relatively faster to get, but you CANNOT work and CANNOT get health insurance here in USA while on a Visitor Visa.

Your other option is STUDENT VISA....you will need to be accepted to a USA program to get a student visa. Which as mentioned above, is very hard to do because it will require you to be accepted either to an undergrad program or a medical school program.

Your third option is Immigration Visa (PR status). For which you will either need to get engaged or married to a USA citizen. Even then it may take 2-5 years for you to get approval.

One alternative is.......you need to look into private schools which have combined undergrad+med school. You can probably apply and see if you get accepted to those programs, which may make life relatively easy for you since you wouldn't have to worry about getting into med school, or in some cases taking the MCAT. A down side to this is that, again, these combined programs are very competitive.
Also, look into combined undergrad+DO programs. They seem to be far less competitive than MD programs. DO's have equal practicing rights in USA, and equal pay. I think DO may not be a bad option at all if you DEFINITELY know you are going to end up marrying your BF and staying in USA forever.

Also, you mentioned that you are having health problems. One thing to keep in mind is that health care in USA is not universal. So if you end up here on a student or visitor visa, you will be paying $$$ for health insurance. If you end up here on an Immigration visa, you may qualify for Gov't funded health insurance plans. (something to keep in mind) .

I apologize if my post is very abstract as I tried to cover different aspects of your problem. Please do feel free to ask more questions if you need clarification on anything I have written.

Lastly......I also somewhat agree with staying in Australia and finishing medical degree there. It might be easier to live in you social support network and becoming a physician. You can study for USMLE (exam for USA residency match) concurrently and try your luck at USA residency match at the end of your medical education. Keep in mind, matching into a USA residency program is also tough, but it is very much a possibility if you want to do primary care.
This will also give you and your BF time to decide about your future plans. Who knows, things might be different at the end of 4 yrs of med school.

Best of luck.

 

[Threnody]

Thank you for the concise and candid answers! I really do appreciate it!

To clarify, my SO and I are discussing marriage, though we haven't gone through with things as he is facing a sudden deployment - he is in the USAF - and we're not putting a rush on things for the sake of expediency. Mostly, my questions are purely hypothetical at this point as I weigh up the pros and cons of living here or there.

As an aside, he has his GI Bill and medical coverage - which he can use for family as well as himself - though I am still looking into these to see how beneficial they are for tuition and health care coverage in comparison to what I have here. I would assume that, for argument's sake, that it could be used to at least offset the cost of med school.

To answer, yes, I am an Australian citizen. I don't know if it would make much difference as I intend to contact the embassy for more information in this regard, but I was a permanent resident in the US when I was a child (10+ years ago). My family - step-father and half-sister - are dual-citizens. I lived there for some time, and I do miss it quite a bit. (Not fond of hot Christmases!)

I did send some inquiries to some schools overseas and they have confirmed what you've said - they do not take international students, and would not take me as I currently am. ("We do not take foreign graduates.") Meaning, as previously said, I would need to do undergrad first; which means I would need a number of other prerequisites, including citizenship and some other hoops to jump through.

Anyway, thanks for the responses! It's really given me food for thought, and has helped to clarify a few things. I truly do appreciate the advice and information!

Frankly most women I know think Aussie guys are hotter.

Ah, I am afraid I am an exception to the rule! Just don't go for the footy-obsessed guys with the souped up Holdens and nasal twang.

 

[Alphonsine]

Quite frankly, it amazes me some people would consider dropping out of Medical School in Australia to follow some Yank who is in the USAF.

-the ocean is full of fish
-you are responsible for your own future. Hanging on to some guy to make you happy and complete your life is well...
-your chances of being admitted to medical school in the USA is very small. Trust me. I went to an prestigious US college for undergrad, got a 3.6 GPA and 35 MCAT and couldn't get into a US student b/c I was Canadian citizen without USA PR or citizenship. I then got shut out of Canadian med schools b/c my GPA was too low for them. If you think you can get into an American medical school - think wisely.
-your boyfriend goes to the USAF? Do you really want to give up everything for this guy? I mean when I get married, I want my husband to be my equal intellectually and economically. I don't know about you

To Be Honest: I wouldn't even give up my medical career even if I were married. Divorces and death do happen. Life isn't a Cinderella story.

 

[ewc]

Quite frankly, it amazes me some people would consider dropping out of Medical School in Australia to follow some Yank who is in the USAF.

-the ocean is full of fish
-you are responsible for your own future. Hanging on to some guy to make you happy and complete your life is well...
-your chances of being admitted to medical school in the USA is very small. Trust me. I went to an prestigious US college for undergrad, got a 3.6 GPA and 35 MCAT and couldn't get into a US student b/c I was Canadian citizen without USA PR or citizenship. I then got shut out of Canadian med schools b/c my GPA was too low for them. If you think you can get into an American medical school - think wisely.
-your boyfriend goes to the USAF? Do you really want to give up everything for this guy? I mean when I get married, I want my husband to be my equal intellectually and economically. I don't know about you

To Be Honest: I wouldn't even give up my medical career even if I were married. Divorces and death do happen. Life isn't a Cinderella story.

i think this is quite a biased and unfair answer which might deem a little offensive. i think that all of us have to make a choice based on what we truly believe in. at some point in time, we all need to make decisions.

that said, it's really up to the individual to make a priority call. please post some objective info to help others in their decisions.

 

[neulite]

I agree with EWC. This isn't some eHarmony forum where we dish out romantic advice. In fact, I don't think the OP was soliciting opinions on her love life in the begining. Keep it on topic.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

American medical schools do not accept any undergraduate coursework done outside of North America. Getting into medical school in Australia as a local or an international residing in Australia is extremely competitive, I would not give up an opportunity like that for a short term relationship.
If you do decide to go to the States you will have to enroll in undergraduate college and take specific science and other coursework that US medical schools require, they do not require a science degree but they do require that you complete certain undergraduate sciences classes before applying. Then you have to take the MCAT examination which I do not advise taking without a tutoring course. Then there are financial matters, unlike Australia where people get HECS and Austudy to pay for their living expenses, you will have to pay full fees and will have to take out loans, unless your a citizen you will most likely need a cosigner for your loans. There are a lot of complexities and difficulties you are going to face in a new country.

 

[gmacpac]

I agree with above. I think it will be easier to finish med school in AU and then apply for residency in USA, rather than trying to find a med school spot.

Best of luck.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Although Australian schools admit a fair number of US students, the converse is not true. For example, in 2007, 17759 students entered US medical school of which 164 were foreign students. Also, you have to guess that this is an unusual group with extraordinary stats. As others have suggested, getting admitted to a US school will be virtually impossible.

Unlike medical schools, US residency programs take significant numbers of foreign medical grads. Thus, point to move if you are considering working in the US, the optimal time to move is just after you complete medical school. You will find that Australian post-graduate training will not count in the US. Thus, if you move to the US, you will have to repeat all your post-graduate training. On the other hand, US training is generally counted in Australia. Thus, if you are uncertain where you will work you are much better off completing your graduate training in the US.

Not quite, US training is not completely recognized in Australia, although some US trained physicians do work here, it is very difficult to do so. Most of the OTDs come from the UK, Ireland, and South Africa.

 

[Threnody]

I certainly didn't come here to air or defend my relationship, or to be judged by it, so thank you ewc for beating me to the punch. I wanted to be fully aware of all possibilities - no matter how ludicrous they may seem to some - before I made any uninformed decisions. I felt a bit of background might help to explain why I am asking you fine folk what seems to be fairly obvious (to you) in the first place.

I did find some of what was said offensive, and I apologise if it appeared I was asking for relationship advice.

But I digress. I think it's evident I have little knowledge or experience in this area, so you've all been a big help in shedding some light on the issue. I was quite uncertain before about the pros and cons of US vs Australian education, and this has helped my understanding greatly.

You will find that Australian post-graduate training will not count in the US. Thus, if you move to the US, you will have to repeat all your post-graduate training. On the other hand, US training is generally counted in Australia. Thus, if you are uncertain where you will work you are much better off completing your graduate training in the US.
I admit that was one of my biggest worries; that is, if I would have a struggle at the end of my (Australian) degree to find residency in the US, much like the struggle international students seem to have in general. I wanted to know what I would be getting myself into if I did my degree here in Australia, and if I would face some real resistance as a foreign resident over in the US. I was thinking that to do the entire degree in the US would save hassle later, but I can see that's definitely not the case.

Anyway, thanks again. It's been really helpful to hear first-hand your experiences and take on US/Australian medical system. You've just confirmed my thoughts on how things stand, and what I will be doing. Cheers!

 

[ewc]

I certainly didn't come here to air or defend my relationship, or to be judged by it, so thank you ewc for beating me to the punch. I wanted to be fully aware of all possibilities - no matter how ludicrous they may seem to some - before I made any uninformed decisions. I felt a bit of background might help to explain why I am asking you fine folk what seems to be fairly obvious (to you) in the first place.

I did find some of what was said offensive, and I apologise if it appeared I was asking for relationship advice.

But I digress. I think it's evident I have little knowledge or experience in this area, so you've all been a big help in shedding some light on the issue. I was quite uncertain before about the pros and cons of US vs Australian education, and this has helped my understanding greatly.

You will find that Australian post-graduate training will not count in the US. Thus, if you move to the US, you will have to repeat all your post-graduate training. On the other hand, US training is generally counted in Australia. Thus, if you are uncertain where you will work you are much better off completing your graduate training in the US.
I admit that was one of my biggest worries; that is, if I would have a struggle at the end of my (Australian) degree to find residency in the US, much like the struggle international students seem to have in general. I wanted to know what I would be getting myself into if I did my degree here in Australia, and if I would face some real resistance as a foreign resident over in the US. I was thinking that to do the entire degree in the US would save hassle later, but I can see that's definitely not the case.

Anyway, thanks again. It's been really helpful to hear first-hand your experiences and take on US/Australian medical system. You've just confirmed my thoughts on how things stand, and what I will be doing. Cheers!

np threnody. you could try looking into a situation where you do your degree in australia, do some electives in the US (specifically in the region and specialty of choice), and try to apply for residency in the US (after USMLE 1 & 2).

 

[Threnody]

np threnody. you could try looking into a situation where you do your degree in australia, do some electives in the US (specifically in the region and specialty of choice), and try to apply for residency in the US (after USMLE 1 & 2).

Thanks, ewc. That's a course that certainly has crossed my mind; I would like to continue my education and eventually specialise. Though again, I would assume the difficulties of studying a specialty in the US as opposed to in Oz would be the same?

 

[redshifteffect]

Well in the US you have the added disadvantage of being an IMG. So you would have to go to either an undesirable location or specialty. However getting good scores and LORs should at least help you get higher on the "list".

 

[Zuckman]

Isn't it quite difficult to get American LOR's since there is a lack of clinical time in the states? I think this is the difficult part.

 

[JohnnyRockets]

Unless this USAF fellow is going to become Presidential material or is from some kind of wealthy family, I would say stay in school. Medical school is a unique opportunity. Why is everyone hyping up the US so much?? I am going to USyd and have no intention whatsoever of returning to the US. The lifestyle in Australia is better.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

You will find that Australian post-graduate training will not count in the US. Thus, if you move to the US, you will have to repeat all your post-graduate training. On the other hand, US training is generally counted in Australia. Thus, if you are uncertain where you will work you are much better off completing your graduate training in the US.

Not really true. Coming to Australia from the US is more difficult than you think. You can easily work in Australia.. but not outside of the public healthcare system (without extra exams and probably extra training).

Australia's postgrad training is recognised in Canada.. and even a few US Boards accept Australian training. Example = Those that complete the Australian/NZ GP training program (FRACGP) are considered "Board Eligible" by the ABFP.

 

[Zuckman]

Other than GP, what other residencies done in Oz are accepted in the US?

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Other than GP, what other residencies done in Oz are accepted in the US?

I think Radiology may be one of them.

I've seen quite a few Australian/NZ trained radiologists who have simply completed a 1-2 year fellowship in the US/Canada and then were licensed.

Check out this guy. He is also Board Certified. He never completed a ACMGE radiology residency. So, just like most of the US Boards accept Canadian training.. many of them also accept Australian/NZ training as equivlient. Now having your training recognised as equivalent by a US board and obtaining a US state license.. those are 2 seperate things. So, although Australian/NZ training is usually always considered "equivalent" by the US specialty boards. Most US states will require you to complete a year or two in a US hopsital in order to obtain a "state license". Make sense?

Also, like I said.. US training isn't always accepted in Aus either. You can always come over and work in a public clinic, etc no prob. But American trained guys can't just walk in and get a provider (aka DEA) number and start working in private practice. It is difficult either way.

In general it is always "easier" to simply train in the place you want to work.

However, Aus/NZ, Canadian, and US training are generally viewed as all being equivalent.

 

[Zuckman]

So I guess there are some openings for people trained in Oz/NZ. At least they don't close the door totally.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

http://www.celiacdiseasecenter.columbia.edu/E_About/E03-StaffBios.htm

This physician is a professor of Gastroenterology at Columbia University in New York, his bio says he competed his training in Australia.