Sub-3.0 BCPM GPA & Accepted to top 25!

[QofQuimica]

AA threads suck.

For those of you who are opposed to AA, get a grip. Life is unfair. No one gets into med school (let alone through it) without working their tail off. If the adcom thought that someone with a sub-30 MCAT couldn't hack it in med school, then they wouldn't admit that person. Plus, just because someone's MCAT score is lower than yours doesn't mean that they're dumber than you. (By that logic, I must be Albert friggin' Einstein. ) Matriculants just need to be able to PASS their classes and the boards, not ace them. If you get through med school with straight Cs and a 185 Step 1, guess what? You're a doctor.

For those of you who have medical school acceptances, don't waste your opportunity. There are plenty of deserving people of all races who don't get the chance to go to med school, while you did. So work your butt off to be a great doctor. Go into your local community and volunteer. Mentor disadvantaged children. Make the path easier for others who will follow you. And if you come from a disadvantaged background, don't forget about the people you left behind. Actually, this is good advice for all of us.

P.S. Congrats to the OP.

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[Napoleon4000]

Debating is quite different. Plus there is nothing to debate about. Unless you are into some form of mental masturbation the problem is obviously not simple. You can speculate all you want and it's not going to change a thing. This post was intended to supply support to those who are applying. People like yourself have turned this into something else. Go ahead, prove me wrong. Show your true colors. This debate is pointless because of the arbitrary nature of this process. It's hubris to think that you can make sense of this process. That's like saying that there is no God; or that there is one. There is no point to it. Just be happy for the post. Wow! People are involved in the selection process and because of this there is an inherent individual bias. It's like style of writing or ice cream. Some people like this or that. What's there to make sense. Put your efforts into something else.

 

[gostudy]

Its not complaining by people they are debating the situation and stating their views it dosent mean their complaining. Hypothetically, what if they said there arent enough white guys in the NBA, so less skilled white players will take away 2 or 3 rosters spots per team, would that be okay since they are URM in the NBA.

No. Your hypothetical situation is comparing apples to oranges and leaves out important variables. A more correct comparison would be to say: what if there were not enough white people watching the NBA or attending NBA games. Is it worth it to save 2 or 3 slots to less-talented white players to appease white fans? That's the more correct comparison. I would go ahead and agree with you since the NBA is about business and pleasing the fans (see recent dress code). You see, we have a similar situation in medicine in which the end result can be seen as the goal of adcoms. If the goal is admit URM with less stellar stats (btw getting into med school is a whole lot more than two sets of numbers) so that they can in turn serve underserved minority areas than that's that. If the goal of adcoms was to admit students with the highest GPA and MCAT than it would be really stupid of them to admit URMs with less stellar stats. I tend to think that the adcoms know what they are doing. And please don't tell me that a white physician is just as likely to serve minority areas as a black physician.

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

If the point of AA is to make people work in underserved areas then how come minorities tend to work in these underserved areas at about the same rate as other groups. If your a upper middle class minority, odds you are going to work in an upper middle class area. Also, i dont want to hear that there is a shortage of doctors in these areas that only having AA will help, there is a doctor shortage in america as a whole. Guess, what if it is the only job a majority doctor can get is working in an underserved area he or she will work in that area.

Sorry to respond to the same post twice, but I thought I'd look up some additional info regarding the bold statements. These excerpts come from the web site:

http://www.aamc.org/diversity/amicusbrief.pdf

“Minority physicians are more likely to serve minority patients even when controlling for premedical school performance and socio-economic backgrounds”

“Minority patients were over four times more likely to receive care from non-white physicians than were Caucasian patients”

“African American physicians practiced in areas where the percentage of African Americans was nearly five times as high, on average, as in areas where other physicians practiced”

“Although black physicians account for less than 5% of the total US physician workforce, they serve as regular health care providers for 23% of black individuals.”

The article goes on to quote studies that show minorities are more likely than other ethnic groups to go into primary care, serve uninsured populations, give care to individuals using medicade, and (yes) practice in under served areas.

 

[Flopotomist]

To the OP... I say congratulations! I am a non-URM that got in with less than perfect numbers, (3.4 GPA, 28 MCAT) so think there is hope for people of all colors to get in.

To the point about AA - one concern that I have is that by the time we are applying to medical school, it is a bit late to have AA. These policies should be in place long before undergrad to insure that URMs have the same numbers as non-URMs when applying. Lets increase funding for tutoring, primary education, recruiting URMs into top undergrad universities, fund headstart, teach sex ed (so pregnancy doesn't derail education). After we do all of these things, let us sit back and see if we can do away with race-based admissions entirely.

One other concern that I have about the current system is that patients look at URM providers and assume that they are somehow inferior to their white counterparts because they only got in because of their URM status. This serves as a huge disservice to the brilliant physicians who happen to be URM, and are confronted with the assumption that they are where they are because of racially based admissions.

 

[somewhere2010]

Its not complaining by people they are debating the situation and stating their views it dosent mean their complaining. Hypothetically, what if they said there arent enough white guys in the NBA, so less skilled white players will take away 2 or 3 rosters spots per team, would that be okay since they are URM in the NBA. The reason people make the claim it is all upper/middle class URM getting the advantage ( which i truly believe is true, from my own experiences) is because there is no stipulation or provisions to make sure that the opportunities provided by AA go to the people who have experienced real hardships. I would find much more acceptable and absolutely correct to give a spot/chance to a minority that grew up absolutley impoverished and had a 2.8 and 24 than a minority who has a 3.2 and 26 who grew up in a middle classs upbrining with went to quality schools, and had no REAL worries growing up.

jackets, are you reading people's posts? you certainly don't seem to be responding to any of the rebuttals to your arguments! and you need a serious grammar lesson...it's really hard to read your run-on sentences.

ouch, cheap shot, i know! sorry, i'm cranky cuz it's dark outside and only 5:01pm...

 

[mitosisman123]

Sorry to respond to the same post twice, but I thought I'd look up some additional info regarding the bold statements. These excerpts come from the web site:

http://www.aamc.org/diversity/amicusbrief.pdf

“Minority physicians are more likely to serve minority patients even when controlling for premedical school performance and socio-economic backgrounds”

“Minority patients were over four times more likely to receive care from non-white physicians than were Caucasian patients”

“African American physicians practiced in areas where the percentage of African Americans was nearly five times as high, on average, as in areas where other physicians practiced”

“Although black physicians account for less than 5% of the total US physician workforce, they serve as regular health care providers for 23% of black individuals.”

The article goes on to quote studies that show minorities are more likely than other ethnic groups to go into primary care, serve uninsured populations, give care to individuals using medicade, and (yes) practice in under served areas.

so URM's serve their own race big deal??The fact that URM's serve their race still does not justify the need for them to go to top schools they dont merit...

 

[mitosisman123]

yeah, you have a point. but the purpose of the "URM advantage" is not to make URMs happy and ORMs bitter, but to increase the number of URMs in all areas of medicine in order to result in a likely increase in the number of minorities who will receive health care.

as for the admissions process, super high GPAs, MCAT scores, and URM status are all ways of people standing out to med schools: the former reasons because they look good, and the latter because it serves to increase service to underserved communities. as for "undeserving" URMs getting into top schools, this is probably a way of facilitating entry of URMs into all fields of medicine by having the name of a top med school and all of its resources at your fingertips before residency.

the truth is, people at the worst and the best med schools are all smart enough to be doctors, maybe even (gasp!) neurosurgeons, so weighing the academic greatness of one intelligent applicant against another won't necessarily tell you who has more potential for a successful career in medicine...in my humble opinion.

good points but, it still does not justify lowering the bar for minorities... It hurts the URM who worked hard for a 3.9 and 33 to have other URMS with less than stellar stats get the same reward they get...

 

[mitosisman123]

Its not complaining by people they are debating the situation and stating their views it dosent mean their complaining. Hypothetically, what if they said there arent enough white guys in the NBA, so less skilled white players will take away 2 or 3 rosters spots per team, would that be okay since they are URM in the NBA. The reason people make the claim it is all upper/middle class URM getting the advantage ( which i truly believe is true, from my own experiences) is because there is no stipulation or provisions to make sure that the opportunities provided by AA go to the people who have experienced real hardships. I would find much more acceptable and absolutely correct to give a spot/chance to a minority that grew up absolutley impoverished and had a 2.8 and 24 than a minority who has a 3.2 and 26 who grew up in a middle classs upbrining with went to quality schools, and had no REAL worries growing up.

so true

sadly the system we have screws a kid like this and gives bill cosbys kids an advantage over them...

 

[TheMightyAngus]

Debating is quite different. Plus there is nothing to debate about. Unless you are into some form of mental masturbation the problem is obviously not simple. You can speculate all you want and it's not going to change a thing. This post was intended to supply support to those who are applying. People like yourself have turned this into something else. Go ahead, prove me wrong. Show your true colors. This debate is pointless because of the arbitrary nature of this process. It's hubris to think that you can make sense of this process. That's like saying that there is no God; or that there is one. There is no point to it. Just be happy for the post. Wow! People are involved in the selection process and because of this there is an inherent individual bias. It's like style of writing or ice cream. Some people like this or that. What's there to make sense. Put your efforts into something else.

In summary, one of the main arguments against the OP is that his/her situation cannot offer hope to those who aren't URM. It's naive to think that non-URM people have a realistic chance at a top 20 school with a sub-3.0 BCPM, sub-30 MCAT, unless something else in their application is exceptional. Giving praise and hugs is nice and fuzzy, but let's be realistic here.

 

[somewhere2010]

good points but, it still does not justify lowering the bar for minorities... It hurts the URM who worked hard for a 3.9 and 33 to have other URMS with less than stellar stats get the same reward they get...

it pains me to have to repeat myself so...but GPA and MCAT are not everything! so the URM with a 3.9 and a 33 and the URM with a 3.6 and 28 like myself are not necessarily unequals! do you think that we have to fill out all those applications just for fun while these two numbers carry 80% of the weight? NO WAY!

besides, even if your point were true, it wouldn't hurt the person with the higher numbers because they still get in. isn't that the whole point of the process, to get where YOU want to be, not necessarily caring about who else did and did not succeeed? ahhh get over it!

 

[mitosisman123]

it pains me to have to repeat myself so...but GPA and MCAT are not everything! so the URM with a 3.9 and a 33 and the URM with a 3.6 and 28 like myself are not necessarily unequals! do you think that we have to fill out all those applications just for fun while these two numbers carry 80% of the weight? NO WAY!

besides, even if your point were true, it wouldn't hurt the person with the higher numbers because they still get in. isn't that the whole point of the process, to get where YOU want to be, not necessarily caring about who else did and did not succeeed? ahhh get over it!

no, I will not get over it... I don't think it is fair to the URM who go 3.9 and 33 to be viewed by the student base as another 3.6 and 28...I also don't think it is fair for both of them to be on full ride obviously, one deserves it more than the other...

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

so URM's serve their own race big deal??The fact that URM's serve their race still does not justify the need for them to go to top schools they dont merit...

Wow, it must have taken lots of practice for you to be so adept at missing the point. Minorities are not just under represented in medicine, they are underserved in the US population. It is a big deal that minority doctors serve minority patients.

ALSO, the data shows that minorities serve populations THAT NEED IT MOST. Since medicine is a business in this country, there are many populations who just don’t receive medical care. Minorities are more likely to provide healthcare for the uninsured (regardless of their ethnic background) and are more likely to go into primary care. Since there is a shortage of doctors in this country, it is much more important to produce primary care physicians than it is to produce highly specialized or commercial doctors (we need more pediatricians than dermatologist). Countless studies have shown that minorities are, in fact, very valuable to our current strained health care system.

 

[mitosisman123]

Wow, it must have taken lots of practice for you to be so adept at missing the point. Minorities are not just under represented in medicine, they are underserved in the US population. It is a big deal that minority doctors serve minority patients.

ALSO, the data shows that minorities serve populations THAT NEED IT MOST. Since medicine is a business in this country, there are many populations who just don’t receive medical care. Minorities are more likely to provide healthcare for the uninsured (regardless of their ethnic background) and are more likely to go into primary care. Since there is a shortage of doctors in this country, it is much more important to produce primary care physicians than it is to produce highly specialized or commercial doctors (we need more pediatricians than dermatologist). Countless studies have shown that minorities are, in fact, very valuable to our current strained health care system.

can't minorites serve the minorty population by going to a school they merit???
Since minorities enter med with lower stats it is not surprising that most of them end up in primary care... Lower stats = lower boards = primary care... (this goes out to all the trust fund babies who take legacy also...)

 

[jebus]

Wow, it must have taken lots of practice for you to be so adept at missing the point. Minorities are not just under represented in medicine, they are underserved in the US population. It is a big deal that minority doctors serve minority patients.

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment here, there are other groups that are also minorities in the US. The point is that some groups are in fact Under Represented Minorities (URM) in medicine... Asians are minorities in the US but we aren't under represented in medicine - that's why we don't get benefits from AA.
I'm going to stop paying attention to this thread. It's pointless.

 

[mitosisman123]

just to make my point very clear

why should both of these URMs be treated the same and have the same stigma's...

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=3003
http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=3539

obviously one did better yet, they both recieve the same reward...
Have a merit based system and reward those who do better

 

[gostudy]

just to make my point very clear

why should both of these URMs be treated the same and have the same stigma's...

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=3003
http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=3539

obviously one did better yet, they both recieve the same reward...
Have a merit based system and reward those who do better

Dude you are completely leaving out one glaring detail. One is a black female (albeit international) and the other is a black male. That's a big difference especially when you go to AAMC and look at the disparity of black females to black males apply. Somewhere on the order of 2:1. Therefore, competition is a bit stiffer among black females.

 

[mitosisman123]

Dude you are completely leaving out one glaring detail. One is a black female (albeit international) and the other is a black male. That's a big difference especially when you go to AAMC and look at the disparity of black females to black males apply. Somewhere on the order of 2:1. Therefore, competition is a bit stiffer among black females.

what are you talking about?? did you even look at the profiles??

 

[gostudy]

what are you talking about?? did you even look at the profiles??

profile was read incorrectly. your original point stands.

 

[Still learning]

I kinda feel the same way. Congrats! (of course) but I got all excited looking at the thread title, and then when I read a little further got all down in the dumps again. My GPA is pretty awful (around 3.2 cum) but my MCATs were good (37) and yet I have 7 rejections, one interview at a state school, and that's it (after applying to 23). And I'm in the same situation as benfolds.... had a ****ty first year in college because of personal problems, then WAAAAY brought my GPA up, but I still get no love. Sigh. I just wish there were some success stories out there that are like my stats... all of them seem to be high GPA/low MCAT instead of the opposite.

Good luck to everyone! (and let me know if you have any real hope to give me )

After reading a few of these I thought I should chime in with some more hope.
First you have to remember in a lot of ways this is a really random process, there is no single formula you can rely on.

I applied to 12 schools some top tier some middle of the road. So far I've been invited for 5 interviews and accepted to one very good though not top 25 school. My MCAT was 34 and my BCPM 3.2 ,overall undergrad a little over 3.3. I too had some serious personal problems early in my undergrad career then made up for it later. I think I had very good LOR, held leadership positions and also worked in research for 2 years before applying. No published papers.

The point is if this is what you want to do, hang in there. It's still early in the process and there are a lot of schools that have just started sending out their interview invites.
PS I was also rejected without interview from UCSD, BU, UNC.

 

[Flopotomist]

One further concern that I have after reading this post is what the URM will face after matriculating at medical school. Will these negative attitudes from so many posters allow the URM to feel comfortable in small groups, in study sessions, at social events etc?

Also, I found it interesting that somebody choose to use Bill Cosby's kids as an example of a black family that does not need assistance - even Bill Cosby's family suffers from the social challenges unique to black America: his son was murdered.

 

[mitosisman123]

One further concern that I have after reading this post is what the URM will face after matriculating at medical school. Will these negative attitudes from so many posters allow the URM to feel comfortable in small groups, in study sessions, at social events etc?

Also, I found it interesting that somebody choose to use Bill Cosby's kids as an example of a black family that does not need assistance - even Bill Cosby's family suffers from the social challenges unique to black America: his son was murdered.

I was referring to the show not his actual family

 

[Flopotomist]

I was referring to the show not his actual family

and i was referring to the reality that the social stresses that make life more challenging for URMs cross economic boundaries. If we are going to have a discussion, let us use real people instead of fictional characters.

 

[mitosisman123]

and i was referring to the reality that the social stresses that make life more challenging for URMs cross economic boundaries. If we are going to have a discussion, let us use real people instead of fictional characters.

fine, michael jordans kids don't deserve it

 

[Flyfisher]

fine, michael jordans kids don't deserve it

Mitosis man you are a racist.

This thread needs to die before I get really POd.

 

[mitosisman123]

Mitosis man you are a racist.

This thread needs to die before I get really POd.

yes! i have a different view thus, I am racist

PS: I am sorry I am not a communist

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

can't minorites serve the minorty population by going to a school they merit???
Since minorities enter med with lower stats it is not surprising that most of them end up in primary care... Lower stats = lower boards = primary care... (this goes out to all the trust fund babies who take legacy also...)

Oh, I’m sorry! I thought some people actually pursued pediatrics, obstetrics and gynecology, geriatrics, internal medicine, family medicine, general practice, or emergency medicine because they wanted to. Thanks for letting me know that all those docs just failed at being cardiothoracic surgeons and had to settle for a primary care job (you know, just like those stupid minorities who all made mediocre scores on the boards).

By the way, there are not that many minorities at these top tier schools. Do you think every minority who applies gets into Harvard? If you are asking why we can't just shove all those minority applicants in the unranked schools, I don't know what to tell you. I promise those minorities who get in to the highly ranked schools, on average, deserved it. All the minority students I met at UPenn may not have had 40s and 4.0s but they had really interesting and helpful extra curriculars going for them. One guy helped found an AIDS clinic in Africa, another woman did some rotations in South America...you know they did stuff to help people who didn't have access to health care.

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

fine, michael jordans kids don't deserve it

Right because since Bill Cosby's kids, who grew up in a wealthy home, still face racism (probably leading to his son's murder) it follows that Michael Jordan's kids, who also grew up in an affluent home, do not face racism at all even though they are also black.

Michael Jordan quit basketball because his father was murdered

Even Colin Powell refused to run for president because he thought he'd be killed. Do we really have to pretend racism does not affect affluent minorities?

 

[mitosisman123]

Oh, I’m sorry! I thought some people actually pursued pediatrics, obstetrics and gynecology, geriatrics, internal medicine, family medicine, general practice, or emergency medicine because they wanted to. Thanks for letting me know that all those docs just failed at being cardiothoracic surgeons and had to settle for a primary care job (you know, just like those stupid minorities who all made mediocre scores on the boards).

By the way, there are not that many minorities at these top tier schools. Do you think every minority who applies gets into Harvard? If you are asking why we can't just shove all those minority applicants in the unranked schools, I don't know what to tell you. I promise those minorities who get in to the highly ranked schools, on average, deserved it. All the minority students I met at UPenn may not have had 40s and 4.0s but they had really interesting and helpful extra curriculars going for them. One guy helped found an AIDS clinic in Africa, another woman did some rotations in South America...you know they did stuff to help people who didn't have access to health care.

yeah since I said that obviously some fields in primary care are better are and harder to get into than others...

 

[mitosisman123]

Right because since Bill Cosby's kids, who grew up in a wealthy home, still face racism (probably leading to his son's murder) it follows that Michael Jordan's kids, who also grew up in an affluent home, do not face racism at all even though they are also black.

Michael Jordan quit basketball because his father was murdered

Even Colin Powell refused to run for president because he thought he'd be killed. Do we really have to pretend racism does not affect affluent minorities?

oh gosh!! playing the hapless victim... great way to avoid debating the points!! Especially since people are going out and intentionally killing affluent minorities

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

Since minorities enter med with lower stats it is not surprising that most of them end up in primary care... Lower stats = lower boards = primary care

Actually that's exactly what you said. I don't see any distinctions among the primary care specialties in your statement.

 

[mitosisman123]

Actually that's exactly what you said. I don't see any distinctions among the primary care specialties in your statement.

yeah since that was the gist of my whole post

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

Haha I think technically, whites and Asians are taking spots AWAY FROM blacks rather than vice versa, Hispanics, etc, since there is a greater percentage of them in medical school than in the general population. Just a thought.

And you can't quote higher GPA/MCAT scores of ORMs as proof of "merit." I hate whipping out the tennis racket and striking the deceased equine, but GPA and MCAT do not equal merit. If they did, then all medical schools would have one of those stupid numerical formulas to let people in.

 

[Napoleon4000]

I like Peter. However, I still disagree with anything about "spots" belonging to any one person or group. But well said anyway. Damn! you've got your head on straight!

 

[exmike]

Haha I think technically, whites and Asians are taking spots AWAY FROM blacks rather than vice versa, Hispanics, etc, since there is a greater percentage of them in medical school than in the general population. Just a thought.

And you can't quote higher GPA/MCAT scores of ORMs as proof of "merit." I hate whipping out the tennis racket and striking the deceased equine, but GPA and MCAT do not equal merit. If they did, then all medical schools would have one of those stupid numerical formulas to let people in.

HOLY CRAP CAN WE GET OFF THE OWNING OF SPOTS THING? To say a spot can be 'taken away' suggests that someone owned it or had a right to it. Since when was a medical education a right?! UHG! These threads are so lame!

 

[Phil Anthropist]

The discussion has clearly devolved from the OP's original intentions.

If any of you would like to continue discussing Affirmative Action, please do so in the Everyone forum.

Closing.