suboxone

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ssrnh

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Just wondering if residents can prescribe suboxone if they have their own DEA # and they have done the buprenorphinecme course ?

Wondering what is the policy in your program regarding residents prescribing suboxone?

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Just wondering if residents can prescribe suboxone if they have their own DEA # and they have done the buprenorphinecme course ?

Wondering what is the policy in your program regarding residents prescribing suboxone?

At MUSC, most of the residents (PGY-2 and above) have had the course and can prescribe suboxone.
 
I don't think the resident can do this unless the attending has the Suboxone training. It wouldn't make sense for this to be kosher if only the resident has the training since ultimately the attending is supposed to have the ultimate responsibility.

Oh, by the way I've heard from several that people are abusing suboxone. Yes, it is a great treatment choice for an opioid addict, but it apparently is not as much of the miracle med it was touted to be.

This is coming from a guy with the suboxone training.
 
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...Oh, by the way I've heard from several that people are abusing suboxone. Yes, it is a great treatment choice for an opioid addict, but it apparently is not as much of the miracle med it was touted to be.....

What do you mean by "abusing"? Yes, I'm aware that Suboxone has a street value, primarily as an anti-withdrawal measure, so that there is a modest amount of diversion to be concerned about. Subutex can also be crushed, dissolved and injected like Buprenex--though it's a fairly unimpressive high.
This is why training and the "30 -patient limit" are involved--so that prescribers are aware of how what they are writing is being used.
It concerns me greatly that such "rumors of abuse" make physicians more leery of this medication than they are of far more abusable, less regulated meds such as full opiate agonists and benzos.
 
The one thing you CAN'T do is to mix it with benzos. I have heard of several cases and several deaths. Don't know if it is in the literature yet.
 
The one thing you CAN'T do is to mix it with benzos. I have heard of several cases and several deaths. Don't know if it is in the literature yet.

There's some stuff from france where 7-8 patients died.

Believe it or not, concomitant prescribing of benzos and suboxone is occurring with more frequency - I see it all the time here in Florida, the "Wild West" of medicine.
 
...in blatant overdosing and IV abuse of both substances.

Right. No US studies though yet, am I correct? I'm also interested in "casual" benzo use or abuse with suboxone - as to resp depression or the like.

But I also agree with OPD...the patients will abuse all manner of medications, and this isn't really news with suboxone. I know many patients buy it off the street, as OPD mentions, for prevention of withdrawal.
 
Depends on how one defines miracle drug. Suboxone is certainly a miracle for thousands who have been able to quit chronic opioid use. I think it's a great option.
 
Depends on how one defines miracle drug. Suboxone is certainly a miracle for thousands who have been able to quit chronic opioid use. I think it's a great option.

And a miracle for folks who want to be able to have a normal life during the week, and still have a nice heroin party on the weekends (which is, of course, still a significant upgrade over the alternative life).
 
Our team consists of:

1 board certified Family Practice/Accupuncture/Addiction Med MD with Data waiver
2 Psych PAs with Addiction Med Experience
5 Licensed Chemical Dependency Counselors
2 Licensed Mental Health Couselors

Together we staff and operate the Lummi Indian Nation Suboxone Clinic.

We have 98 patients that are all REQUIRED to:

1.) Attend a 1 hr group counseling session 5 days a week (group times are:0700, 0830, 1200, 1500, 1630)

2.) Attend 3 hrs of Mental Health counseling per week

3.) Submit a random U/A 1-6 times a week

4.) Attend a minimum of 2 12-step meetings per week.

The program pays for all meds (~18k every 2 weeks for Subutex, Suboxone, Campral, Multi-Vit, Omega III, Melatonin). We also have cultural therapy, Accupuncture/pressure, and a Massage Therapist available to the patients.

The average Patient is on 16mgs SL qd (some IV heroin users as high as 24mgs, some patients as low as 2mgs)
All meds are crushed and administered to patients on-site for a minimum of the first 90 days in our program to prevent diversion.
We dose every patient daily after group. Non-compliance= No Dose.
We DO NOT write prescriptions for take home meds, but we do give them their Sunday dose on Sat. (8:30-10:30).... the meds are delivered to us from the pharmacy and kept in a secure heavy duty safe in the office.

Subutex is reserved for pregnant patients and tapered to the lowest dose possible as she nears term.

We U/A them a minimum of once per week, but some weeks we will U/A them 3-5 times a week. Dirty U/A = Contract and crushed Meds. Break Contract with another dirty U/A= Inpatient Treatment. Refuse Inpatient Treatment=Rapid taper of Suboxone and out of the program.

After 8 months and stable without "dirty U/As"... we began a trial taper of 1/3rd the total dose. If patient tolerates this taper and remains clean for 30 days on this lower dose... then we graduate them to phase II.

Phase II is group counseling 3 times a week and non-crushed dosing 3 times a week with weekend dose given on Friday. Patient still must give a Random U/A atleast 1 time a week and attend 3 12-step meetings a week. After 8 months in phase II and stable without "dirty U/As"... we began a trial taper of 1/3rd the total dose. If patient tolerates this taper and remains clean for 30 days on this lower dose... then we graduate them to phase III.

At this point the patient has been in the program for 16 months...

Phase III is group counseling 2 times a week and dosing 2 times a week with 3 12-step meeting per week. After 8 months and stable without "dirty U/As"... we began a trial taper of the total dose. If patient tolerates this taper and remains clean for 30 days... then we graduate them from the program.

This program has been running since Jun of 2007.

We've learned quite a few things in this...

1.) Subutex is being injected, snorted, or smoked in the community
2.) Suboxone is being snorted and smoked in the community
3.) Patients DO get high off of Suboxone
4.) Some patients prefer Suboxone because the police will hesitant to arrest them as long as the prescription bottle is current. They also know that a U/A for buprenorphine must be SPECIFICALLY ordered, costs more, and therefore will not likely be detected by their jobs or probation/parole officers.
5.) 1 8mg tablet of Suboxone has a street value of $10 so you prescribers out there giving patients 14 day prescriptions of 24mgs per day (42 tabs = $420)are enriching the patients and basically subsidizing their oxy habit.
6.) Lots of Opioid addicts use Buprenorphine to "tide them over" until they can get their Opioid of choice.
7.) Some will self taper mid-week since they know the half-life (~72hrs) to get ready for the killer party over the coming weekend.
8.) Some will only take 2 tabs a week (and sell the rest) since they know the half-life (~72hrs)... to pass a buprenorphine U/A conducted by their Suboxone Provider to detect diversion.
9.) In many ways... PAWS from bupe is worst that most other Opioids.
10.) 3-10 mgs of Sublingual Melatonin helps with sleep
11.) Multi-Vit and Omega III supplimentation helps.
12.) Accupressure/puncture helps reduce cravings
13.) Some will feign PAWS and request an increase in dosage. Then continue to try and convince you that they need to be on >16mgs qd... but in reality they are only taking 2-4mgs per day and selling the rest.

Educate yourselves from the source (users/abusers/dealers) here... ;)

DocNusum
 
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What do you mean by "abusing"?

Case managers are telling me that their suboxone patients in day program settings are telling each other that mixing suboxone with benzos is doing a very good job in giving them a bout of euphoria.

Suboxone IMHO still a great choice in treating opioid addiction, don't ever doubt my opinion on that. However patients are appearing to find ways to use it in a manner that is not taught formally in the suboxone training. I have also seen several doctors so happy about this medication that they seem to believe it cannot be abused and give it out as much as possible without scrutinizing their patients.

Docnusum's post is exactly what I'm talking about. You have to be aware of those issues when prescribing this medication.

I've often ranted about Seroquel, and there is now at least some data to prove to doctors that Seroquel can be used for abuse purposes. There are still plenty of doctors who prescribe it under the impression that there's nothing to worry about with that medication. It took years for this data to reach the journals even though it was readily apparent to some clinicians as early as a few months after it was released. I'm thinking the same is going on with Suboxone and it won't be years until I start seeing some published articles deal with this issue.

I had one patient who was abruptly taken off of Suboxone. I was not the prescriber. I would have given it though when I got her as a patient she already was on it from another doctor. The doctor abruptly stopped the medication because she got a new insurance carrier. By the time I found out about it it was 3 weeks after the event. She bought suboxone off the street to keep her from going through withdrawal and informed me of several things that were going on with Suboxone that I was not yet aware of until she talked about it.

Another psychiatrist I work with is an addiction specialist and he also informed me of the long list of problems he's having with his Suboxone patients.
 
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Thanks guys for all of the wisdom shared above. This is excellent knowledge to have, especially as it has not yet been documented in the literature. I learn so much more from the patients than from the textbooks sometimes, especially in the area of addiction psychiatry.

The above discussion just underscores the bottom line in treatment of substance dependence: ultimately, getting clean/sober and staying that way requires that the person is really truly motivated to do so. Without that motivation, there is no magic pill or magic therapy that can do it for them. Certainly, medications like acamprosate, Suboxone, naltrexone, varenicline, etc can be excellent adjunct treatments for some patients who are trying to kick alcohol/opiates/nicotine, but you have to want to change... This is why I love psych!
 
Again, Suboxone is still a great therapy option. You just have to make sure you're giving it appropriately.

I have seen several opioid addicts who on it can still work and not have to take several days off to get off their dependence. It's certainly IMHO the best stepping stone to getting off dependence. Just like I also said-its not exactly something you can give out like candy either.

Suboxone is such an improvement over methadone that IMHO doctors gave it too much credit.
 
What do you mean by "abusing"? Yes, I'm aware that Suboxone has a street value, primarily as an anti-withdrawal measure, so that there is a modest amount of diversion to be concerned about. Subutex can also be crushed, dissolved and injected like Buprenex--though it's a fairly unimpressive high.
This is why training and the "30 -patient limit" are involved--so that prescribers are aware of how what they are writing is being used.
It concerns me greatly that such "rumors of abuse" make physicians more leery of this medication than they are of far more abusable, less regulated meds such as full opiate agonists and benzos.


Admitted a patient last night that buys suboxone, methadone and lortab on the street. He said "the 3 together are the tri-fecta...there is not a high like it...." Chronic opiod user for years.

Suboxone is a great drug for maintenance but it is also a great detox drug if you load the patient properly and address some of the side affects that come with withdrawl...oh yeah and did I mention daily therapy, using a psychoanalytic approach while they are going through withdrawl. We do it in my program and the results are amazing!!!
 
Not to steer the discussion away from its intended purpose, but I found a couple of interesting articles investigating the use of buprenorphine in hard to treat cases of depression.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7714228

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v35/n3/abs/npp2009183a.html

The lead author of the first article is the head of clinical psychopharmacology research at McLean and a professor at Harvard Medical School, fwiw.

The second article details why buprenorphine might be such a potent antidepressant. Along with being a partial mu agonist, it is a full kappa antagonist.
 
Thank you everyone for all the excellent posts. I enjoyed my month on our addiction service and was very curious to work in the suboxone clinic. From my few weeks of experience... well it wasn't a miracle drug, that's for sure.

DocNusum's clinic is structured quite differently than ours and I wouldn't be surprised if their outcomes were much better.
 
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