substantial CA disadvantage?

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aspiring20

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a lot of people graduating this year from my alma mater (school in the northeast) are from CA with 3.8+ and 36+, along with strong ECs (leadership, greek organizations, clinical/service ECs, etc.). all of them are moving on to medical schools, but none of them got into ANY UCs. because i know them pretty well, i also know that most of them only got into one school, and that's usually a mid-tier private or public that's friendly to CA residents.

i am wondering if CA residence really is a death-sentence on your application? 3.8+ and 36+ are incredibly strong performances, but not good enough for ANY CA schools? i also understand that the vast majority of state schools (not in CA, of course) are very lenient on residents, often granting admissions to 3.4 and 28 applicants from the same state. i currently live in another state, but i dont think it will be long enough for me to gain residency. so far, i am still a CA-resident even though i am living in another state.

lastly, do med students from CA take out more loans because they don't have state schools to fall back on and have to go private and out of state?
 
If your friends actually all have 3.8+/36+ with strong ECs and are all only holding one mid-tier acceptance they did something wrong, regardless of their state of residence.
 
Applicants from California face more challenges in getting into their state schools but I don't think it's that difficult.
 
lcck said:
Applicants from California face more challenges in getting into their state schools but I don't think it's that difficult.
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really?

i've seen too many 3.8+ 36+ not even getting interview invites at the UCs.
 
CA resident with similar stats as your friends (3.8/40Q while applying). I got into UCSD UCLA and UCI. I'll be going to UCSD in the Fall but I thought it was really odd that I didn't get an interview at Davis even though it's "less prestigious" on paper than the other UC's. I think the UC's really care about "fitment". There are aspects of my personality that would really thrive at SD/LA/I, and now that I think about it I don't really fit UCD's rural emphasis mission statement (went to school in LA (fight on Trojans!)/ grew up in OC)

edit: I also feel I wouldn't fit at UCSF (no interview there either) because while I have research it is not the primary emphasis of my application
 
Meh, I had average stats (well below 3.8+/36+) and got two UC invites. I think part of the problem is that most CA state schools don't really have a strong in-state preference like most other state schools.
 
sinombre said:
Meh, I had average stats (well below 3.8+/36+) and got two UC invites. I think part of the problem is that most CA state schools don't really have a strong in-state preference like most other state schools.
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that's brutal and unfair.
 
supafly0 said:
CA resident with similar stats as your friends (3.8/40Q while applying). I got into UCSD UCLA and UCI. I'll be going to UCSD in the Fall but I thought it was really odd that I didn't get an interview at Davis even though it's "less prestigious" on paper than the other UC's. I think the UC's really care about "fitment". There are aspects of my personality that would really thrive at SD/LA/I, and now that I think about it I don't really fit UCD's rural emphasis mission statement (went to school in LA (fight on Trojans!)/ grew up in OC)

edit: I also feel I wouldn't fit at UCSF (no interview there either) because while I have research it is not the primary emphasis of my application
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I always found it strange that Davis has this sort of focus when a huge chunk of their faculty are pretty intense researchers. Very strange discrepancy.

I'm not sure why you wrote off UCSF, but to each their own I guess.
 
aspiring20 said:
sinombre said:
Meh, I had average stats (well below 3.8+/36+) and got two UC invites. I think part of the problem is that most CA state schools don't really have a strong in-state preference like most other state schools.
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that's brutal and unfair.
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How so? I don't think it's particularly brutal, but I guess that's subjective. I think it's pretty accurate and honest.
 
sinombre said:
I always found it strange that Davis has this sort of focus when a huge chunk of their faculty are pretty intense researchers. Very strange discrepancy.

I'm not sure why you wrote off UCSF, but to each their own I guess.
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nah I was saying i didnt even get an interview there. I definitely applied as it is a great school
 
supafly0 said:
nah I was saying i didnt even get an interview there. I definitely applied as it is a great school
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Oh I know, I was just pointing out that I think it's strange how much the school's specific "mission" deviates from the interests of the faculty that work there.
 
I got many interviews but only 1 from a CA school, and only acceptances so far are from OOS schools.

The UCs have put in place policy to accept more OOS so they can charge OOS tuition due to the huge budget cuts on higher education in CA.
 
supafly0 said:
CA resident with similar stats as your friends (3.8/40Q while applying). I got into UCSD UCLA and UCI. I'll be going to UCSD in the Fall but I thought it was really odd that I didn't get an interview at Davis even though it's "less prestigious" on paper than the other UC's. I think the UC's really care about "fitment". There are aspects of my personality that would really thrive at SD/LA/I, and now that I think about it I don't really fit UCD's rural emphasis mission statement (went to school in LA (fight on Trojans!)/ grew up in OC)

edit: I also feel I wouldn't fit at UCSF (no interview there either) because while I have research it is not the primary emphasis of my application
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I'm not sure if the reason you didn't get an interview at Davis was because of fit. Davis has a bit of a reputation for avoiding high-stat applicants (presumably because these applicants won't end up matriculating at Davis). Anecdotally, I have stats similar to yours, I'm a CA resident, and I got interview invites at all the UCs except Davis. (Ultimately, I didn't end up getting into any CA schools, though I did decline Irvine's interview invite.)
 
Arbor Vitae said:
I got many interviews but only 1 from a CA school, and only acceptances so far are from OOS schools.

The UCs have put in place policy to accept more OOS so they can charge OOS tuition due to the huge budget cuts on higher education in CA.
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and that really screws over in-state applicants
 
CA resident here, while my stats aren't that great, I know it has been incredibly difficult for people I've met that are from here with good stats. From what I understand there is little to no instate preference.
 
Wipeout416 said:
CA resident here, while my stats aren't that great, I know it has been incredibly difficult for people I've met that are from here with good stats. From what I understand there is little to no instate preference.
Click to expand...

exactly as i feared...
 
sinombre said:
Wait, are you saying the fact that this is true is brutal and unfair, or that my comment is brutal and unfair? I think I misinterpreted what you wrote and assumed you meant the latter.
Click to expand...

i meant the fact that CA schools have little to no in-state preference is brutal and unfair!

sorry if it caused you confusions
 
Wipeout416 said:
CA resident here, while my stats aren't that great, I know it has been incredibly difficult for people I've met that are from here with good stats. From what I understand there is little to no instate preference.
Click to expand...

It's easy to run the numbers reported in USNWP and show that IS acceptance rates are higher than OOS. They are not as IS focused as many other state schools but saying there's no in state bias is not true.
 
mcloaf said:
It's easy to run the numbers reported in USNWP and show that IS acceptance rates are higher than OOS. They are not as IS focused as many other state schools but saying there's no in state bias is not true.
Click to expand...

I ran the numbers for UCSD for another thread earlier in the day, thought I'd repost it here for others to see:

"In case anyones interested for UCSD they interviewed 12.7% of IS applicants and accepted 41.8% of interviewees of which 18.6% matriculated compared to interviewing 7.5%OOS applicants and accepting 44.4% of which 21.6% matriculated. Not sure if it's similar enough to say theres a difference or not though, close call!

Numbers from a combined MSAR and USNWR."

To me it seems like the major selection process is to get an interview.
 
mcloaf said:
It's easy to run the numbers reported in USNWP and show that IS acceptance rates are higher than OOS. They are not as IS focused as many other state schools but saying there's no in state bias is not true.
Click to expand...

Whether its actual IS preference or just that it happens to be high statted applicants from this region isn't known. Just based upon the fact that there is no 80%+ IS accepting school makes me think otherwise. *shrugs*
 
Goobs said:
I ran the numbers for UCSD for another thread earlier in the day, thought I'd repost it here for others to see:

"In case anyones interested for UCSD they interviewed 12.7% of IS applicants and accepted 41.8% of interviewees of which 18.6% matriculated compared to interviewing 7.5%OOS applicants and accepting 44.4% of which 21.6% matriculated. Not sure if it's similar enough to say theres a difference or not though, close call!

Numbers from a combined MSAR and USNWR."

To me it seems like the major selection process is to get an interview.
Click to expand...

other state schools (like UNC) interview 50% of IS applicants.
 
aspiring20 said:
really?

i've seen too many 3.8+ 36+ not even getting interview invites at the UCs.
Click to expand...

Define "seen." You literally laid eyes on their verified AMCAS that shows their MCAT scores and GPAs? Or they told you their numbers? Or you heard third hand from their lab partner's roommate?

Everyone in my post-bacc classes thinks I have a 3.9 and a 38...:meanie:
 
Mt Kilimanjaro said:
Define "seen." You literally laid eyes on their verified AMCAS that shows their MCAT scores and GPAs? Or they told you their numbers? Or you heard third hand from their lab partner's roommate?

Everyone in my post-bacc classes thinks I have a 3.9 and a 38...:meanie:
Click to expand...

they told me. and they were also listed on the latin honors section (and i know the GPA cut offs for each category).
 
Yeah, it's pretty difficult being a CA resident. My pre-med adviser frequently told me that California always has the most pre-meds applying there and that makes it really hard to get in. Also, five of our schools are in the Top 31 (with 4 of those programs being in the Top 15), and thus increasing our already enormous applicant pool, and the other schools (LLU, UCD, and now UCR) have very specific school missions. As for UCI, they don't discriminate between IS or OOS at all. So you're right in saying that California doesn't have much IS preference (though some still remains) and that it's tough to get in. Is it a disadvantage? Nope. But it certainly isn't much of an advantage.

Is it unfair? Maybe. Especially when you consider that IS schools in New Mexico and Louisiana (no offense to these schools) have significantly lower median stats for admission. But that's just how it is. Everybody wants to go to Cali. Because it's awesome here. 🙂

Also, I agree with Goobs about the interview thing.
 
lol, yeah. USC is ranked 31 I think. I guess I should have said that there are 4 schools (UCSD, UCLA, Stanford, and UCSF) in the top 15 and that USC (ranked 31) is a private school and doesn't give preference to IS.

Edit: Also, UCLA and Stanford don't give preference either. From what I've been told UCSF and UCSD give a slight advantage for IS for getting interviews but post-interview, the chances of admission are roughly similar.
 
Food for thought:

California

residents = 38 million

MD schools = 9

ratio= 4.2:1

Oregon (just as an example, my home school)

residents = 4 million

MD Schools = 1

ratio = 4:1

Percent accepted OOS

California (avg including privates) = 22.3%

California (avg of just public) = 11.1%

Oregon = 35.6%

--------------------------------------------
Conclusion: CA students are not disadvantaged IMO.
 
I just looked in the U.S. News Rankings, and this is what they give for the percentage of the student body that is made up of in-state residents:
UCSF: 94.8%
UCLA: 96.3%
UCSD: 89.4%
UC Davis: 99.5%
UCI: 96.5%

Other than UCSD, those are all pretty high, so I don't think you can really say that California schools done give preference to California residents. I don't have any numbers on this (may go search some out to stave my curiosity), but I always assumed that the issue was that there are a great deal more people from California that are applying to medical school than many of the other states (for whatever reason). Additionally, from conversations that I have had, many of the UC schools seem to have a preference for students that come from the UC system vs students that are educated outside of California, but are now residents (me🙁).

Just my thoughts. . .
 
Infarction said:
Is it unfair? Maybe. Especially when you consider that IS schools in New Mexico and Louisiana (no offense to these schools) have significantly lower median stats for admission. But that's just how it is. Everybody wants to go to Cali. Because it's awesome here. 🙂

Also, I agree with Goobs about the interview thing.
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Don't be hatin'!!
We have to fight against centuries of inbreeding and inadequate public schools. We need that leg up that you Californians don't.
 
Ok, I did some digging and found some data (AMCAS Charts). Forgive my crazy long post, but I'm bored at work, and love an excuse to do some data mining😀

Here is a comparison of applicants / total population
California: 5,326 / 38,000,000 = 0.014%
US (as a whole): 43,847 / 313,914,040 = 0.014%
https://www.aamc.org/download/321460/data/2012factstable3.pdf

Here is a comparison of matriculants / applicants:
California residents: 2,268 / 5,326 = 42.58%
US (as a whole): 19,318 / 43,847 = 44.06%
https://www.aamc.org/download/321442/data/2012factstable1.pdf

I also looked at applicant average statistics:
Califonia: MCAT 29.9Q GPA 3.50
US + Canada, territories and other (this was the only summed data, and I've already spent too much time at this at work to manually average all 50 states🙂) MCAT 28.3 GPA 3.54
https://www.aamc.org/download/321500/data/2012factstable20.pdf

So, from all of that:
  • I was incorrect in my original assertion that a higher percent of the population in CA applies than in other states
  • Although the percent of resident applicants that actually matriculate is slightly lower in CA, it certainly isn't drastically so. . . . so I'm not sure that this is a very valid gripe
  • MCAT and GPA data don't really tell me much. The MCAT is a little higher, but the standard deviation between states was pretty large, so a 1.6 difference from the average isn't that substantial. GPA is pretty comparable. I was trying to see if maybe Californians had really great stats in comparison to other states, but still only hit just below average for % of applicants matriculating. That doesn't seem to be the case.

To sum it up, it doesn't seem like California applicants are really that disadvantaged. . . only minorly so, at least. That being said, it would be good to look at the number that are accepted to thier state school / number applied for Califonia vs. US, as a whole, but I think that data would be difficult to get to (accepted vs. matriculating). . . and I have to go to a meeting😴

Census data:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_population
 
LiveLoveLearn said:
Ok, I did some digging and found some data (AMCAS Charts). Forgive my crazy long post, but I'm bored at work, and love an excuse to do some data mining😀
Click to expand...

While my data is by no means as comprehensive as yours, they definitely correlate. I think SDN has successfully debunked this myth, more-less. I'm sure someone, someplace will/can find more precise data--but in a nutshell i think we've come to a consensus.
 
Last edited:
There's just so many CA applicants to begin with. The whole process is bound to be a crapshoot. You say you have friend's with 3.8+/36+ not getting interviews. I say I have friends who have much below those stats and they are getting into CA schools. In the end, how the ADCOMs feel when they sift through thousands of CA applications is up in the air, making this entire process stressful for everyone involved. I do think FIT is a big thing for CA schools, although that's a tough metric to follow.
 
i think it''s just the sheer numbers of high-quality applicants.

most other state schools only get around 1000 applications from in-state residents, which is crazy few. CA schools get like 20,000 applications from californians.
 
aspiring20 said:
i think it''s just the sheer numbers of high-quality applicants.

most other state schools only get around 1000 applications from in-state residents, which is crazy few. CA schools get like 20,000 applications from californians.
Click to expand...

While this is more-less accurate (numbers aren't quite that staggering, more like 2-5k in smaller states and 5-8k in CA) they are relatively proportionate to population density.

for reference, GW had the most applicants in 2012 with ~14k. To compare with my example earlier--OHSU had >5.2k this year.

ref: http://www.usnews.com/education/bes...ed-schools-that-receive-the-most-applications
 
LiveLoveLearn said:
To sum it up, it doesn't seem like California applicants are really that disadvantaged. . . only minorly so, at least. That being said, it would be good to look at the number that are accepted to thier state school / number applied for Califonia vs. US, as a whole, but I think that data would be difficult to get to (accepted vs. matriculating). . . and I have to go to a meeting😴
Click to expand...

Nice work 👍

Being a Californian and having seen many of my friends apply, I think the majority of the frustration is rooted in how difficult it is to stay in CA, not necessarily how difficult it is to gain acceptance. I think the combination of state schools giving less preference to in-state applicants (compared to other state schools) and the fact that the bar is set higher in terms of stats makes it difficult for CA applicants to stay in CA.

I've also noticed that the people I know who have applied in past cycles (from CA) applied to roughly 30 schools... this has to be taken in to account as well.
 
sinombre said:
Nice work 👍

Being a Californian and having seen many of my friends apply, I think the majority of the frustration is rooted in how difficult it is to stay in CA, not necessarily how difficult it is to gain acceptance. I think the combination of state schools giving less preference to in-state applicants (compared to other state schools) and the fact that the bar is set higher in terms of stats makes it difficult for CA applicants to stay in CA.

I've also noticed that the people I know who have applied in past cycles applied to roughly 30 schools... this has to be taken in to account as well.
Click to expand...

That and UCs are super broke-- they can't afford to attract students who received scholarship offers from similarly ranked schools. I would love to stay in California, but as it stands, it will cost me ~$120K more to attend a UC than if I were to take a private school's full-tuition scholarship.
 
lcck said:
That and UCs are super broke-- they can't afford to attract students who received scholarship offers from similarly ranked schools. I would love to stay in California, but as it stands, it will cost me ~$120K more to attend a UC than if I were to take a private school's full-tuition scholarship.
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True... financial aid is pretty weak here. Except for UCLA. It sure would be nice to have one of those full-ride scholarships right about meow 😍

Edit: It's worth mentioning there aren't that many people in your shoes though. For a lot of applicants (myself included) it's cheaper to pay 35k in-state tuition than 50k OOS private tuition.
 
At one interview at a private school 3000 miles away, 9 of the 12 of us were from UCs. They told our group that Californians make up roughly 25% of their class each year.
 
gyngyn said:
Last year there were 5,326 CA applicants. 841 of them matriculated into an allopathic school in CA (15.8%). 1,427 matriculated OOS. Thus, California is the largest exporter of premeds in the nation.
Click to expand...

How do those percentages compare? California is probably one of the biggest everythings of everything.
 
LiveLoveLearn said:
To sum it up, it doesn't seem like California applicants are really that disadvantaged. . . only minorly so, at least. That being said, it would be good to look at the number that are accepted to thier state school / number applied for Califonia vs. US, as a whole, but I think that data would be difficult to get to (accepted vs. matriculating). . . and I have to go to a meeting😴
Click to expand...

Here's another way to look at the data:

In 2012, California had 9 medical schools if you count Drew separately from Geffen. The other states with 6+ med schools were Florida (7), Illinois (7), New York (13), Ohio (7), Pennsylvania (7), Texas (8).

Percentage of matriculants that remained in state:

Florida: 26.9
Illinois: 29.5
New York: 30.3
Ohio: 35.4
Pennsylvania: 30.4
Texas: 36.6
California: 15.8

So... how many of those 1,427 California residents that matriculated out of state WANTED to leave the state?

California is by far the largest exporter of premeds. The next highest state is New York with 505 people leaving the state.

for number of schools by state: https://www.aamc.org/download/321442/data/2012factstable1.pdf
for percentage matriculating in state: https://www.aamc.org/download/321466/data/2012factstable5.pdf
 
gyngyn said:
Last year there were 5,326 CA applicants. 841 of them matriculated into an allopathic school in CA (15.8%). 1,427 matriculated OOS. Thus, California is the largest exporter of premeds in the nation.
Click to expand...

Darn gyngyn beat me to it.
 
anguisette said:
Here's another way to look at the data:

In 2012, California had 9 medical schools if you count Drew separately from Geffen. The other states with 6+ med schools were Florida (7), Illinois (7), New York (13), Ohio (7), Pennsylvania (7), Texas (8).

Percentage of matriculants that remained in state:

Florida: 26.9
Illinois: 29.5
New York: 30.3
Ohio: 35.4
Pennsylvania: 30.4
Texas: 36.6
California: 15.8

So... how many of those 1,427 California residents that matriculated out of state WANTED to leave the state?

California is by far the largest exporter of premeds. The next highest state is New York with 505 people leaving the state.

for number of schools by state: https://www.aamc.org/download/321442/data/2012factstable1.pdf
for percentage matriculating in state: https://www.aamc.org/download/321466/data/2012factstable5.pdf
Click to expand...

Great thread. I love the hard numbers. I can see people being upset if they could not stay close to their support system.
 
anguisette said:
Here's another way to look at the data:

In 2012, California had 9 medical schools if you count Drew separately from Geffen. The other states with 6+ med schools were Florida (7), Illinois (7), New York (13), Ohio (7), Pennsylvania (7), Texas (8).

Percentage of matriculants that remained in state:

Florida: 26.9
Illinois: 29.5
New York: 30.3
Ohio: 35.4
Pennsylvania: 30.4
Texas: 36.6
California: 15.8

So... how many of those 1,427 California residents that matriculated out of state WANTED to leave the state?

California is by far the largest exporter of premeds. The next highest state is New York with 505 people leaving the state.

for number of schools by state: https://www.aamc.org/download/321442/data/2012factstable1.pdf
for percentage matriculating in state: https://www.aamc.org/download/321466/data/2012factstable5.pdf
Click to expand...

👍Thanks! I was hoping that someone would look this up.

I think that Californians get a mixed bag.

Based on USNWR data, public California schools do give California residents a significant preference (since average California applicants stats are in-line with the national average, but the vast majority of California public school matriculants are California residents). Since 3 of California's public schools are top tier (top 20) (UCLA, UCSF and UCSD), and you don't really see other states with more than one ranked that high (most don't have any), California residents have an advantage in getting into a top tier school. Additionally, almost all of the California schools are at least mid-tier, so if Californians do get to stay in-state, they are able to do so, and still attend a really great school. Many other state schools are not as good, so residents of those have to choose between going to a local school with IS tuition vs. going to a higher ranked

On the other hand, based on your data, there is a smaller medical school seats available in state: resident medical school applicants ratio in California, so Californians are less likely to be able to be able to matriculate in state.

Overall, though, I wouldn't say that CA residents are at any major disadvantage, IMO.
 
at this point, i just want to get into any school in the nation. i've pretty much given up the idea of going to a UC.
 
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