succeeding in the surgery clerkship

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gbigdawg

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hi everyone,

so in roughly 2 weeks i'll be starting my surgery clerkship...i'm a little concerned because i'm not really a morning person and i've heard a lot of horror stories... however, when i am passionate about things...i do what i have to in order to succeed....now strangely enough the more i hear about surgery from classmates...the more it intrigues me...

what i'm trying to say is that i've been known to be a bit of a slacker but i might want to go into surgery so i need advice on how to do awesome in the rotation (other than not being a slacker)...i don't want to get off on the wrong foot. any info would be appreciated...this includes books, what to do/expect during rounds, and other general advice...thanks.

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Books- you'll see quite a few Surgery Recall books floating around in pockets. This is great for pimping, a must-read prior to scrubbing for your procedure, but really won't help much on the board. I didn't like FA, thought Case Files was so-so, but really wish I had used the NMS Surgery Casebook looking back. You'll find that the shelf exam is about management, what diagnostic test to order next, which diagnostic test is best, etc.

List- you will likely be responsible for updating the list in the morning prior to rounds. Things you must include- POD# (post-op day), fluids in/out, drains, NG output, their diet regimen, flatus/BM, electrolytes, what their wound looked like, presence of bowel sounds, pain control. Have it done before they expect it. Try and work on as much of it as possible before you leave for the day- you won't be as precise at 4:30 a.m. These residents hate floor work, basically want to get through it to charge their way into the OR, so don't be late, 'cause they'll start without you.


Attitude- Lose it. Unless you have just **the nicest** group of surgery residents to walk the earth, suppress your personality, too. If you like to joke, they'll think you don't take anything seriously. Exception is in the OR (again, their favorite place), where a few properly told jokes/anecdotes/observations can lighten the burden of that 4 hour lap appy. Basically, you are a drone to them, sent to update the list, see patients, remove sutures/staples, drain pus, write notes, etc. They usually don't care what you did over the weekend, and certainly will ridicule your chosen specialty unless it involves a general surgery stint. No stupid questions, either. Search back a few days on this forum to the poor guy who has to speak to the Chief of Surgery for mistaking which procedure he was scrubbing in for. As a matter of fact, unless you want to actually be a GS resident at the hospital you are working, I would steer clear of asking any questions, unless you already know the answer. Let the upper levels focus on pimping the intern, not you! Find the nice surgeon, work with him/her if you need an LOR.

Rounds- Keep your presentation brief, like 60 sec. "Mr. X is POD#? s/p Lap whatever for obstruction. Overnight vitals were stable, afebrile, pain 2/10, was +1000 fluids, good UOP, tolerated clear liquids, will start regular diet today. Wound looks good, no drainage, no erythema. Good bowel sounds, passed flatus and had first BM last night. NG drainage clear, less than 200 overnight." Maybe they'll ask for your plan, maybe they'll just tell the intern what to do. This is nothing like IM, where the team can spend 20 minutes outside each room, with each team member contributing their thoughts. You will round on 10 patients in 20 minutes, and you should really have nothing to say if it is not your patient. Certainly there will be time to ask questions, but morning rounds is not it.

Committment- Basically, the interns have committed their life to the dream you dare consider. Early mornings, late nights. Get there before they do, leave only after they've told you to. Don't ever complain about the hours, the work, or anything other than the hospital food. Their life is harder than yours (or they think it is). Put on a smile, act like you love every minute, and volunteer to do anything. But don't be too aggressive, either. By week two you should have learned to anticipate what they will want, so try to be ahead of them. Know the history of the patient heading for the emergent appy so you can tell them about it.
 
Strong work Bertelman. I also suggest that you present journals to your attending about some disease process that you have just witnessed. This is always a good way in any rotation to stand out as well as TEACH the attending something that they did not know. In their busy lifestyle it is nice for students to show interest in returning the teaching.
 
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Bertelman pretty much hit the nail on the head. Briefly:

-know your patient, as you should in any rotation
-know the procedure you're scrubbing in for - anatomy, indications, and complications are all fair game for pimping
-in the time you have before surgery starts, i recommend practicing knot tying (two and one handed) and suturing. start with two handed knots in the OR and move onto one handed once you win your resident's confidence. you can borrow suture kits and practice suturing on oranges.
-as for joking around, i think it depends. i joked around a bit with my trauma attending while on call, and he seemed to love me after that. just get a feel for their personalities and when and what is appropriate.
-my residents worked their asses off, but luckily i was never asked to do much scut. that made it easier for me to volunteer to help out with the floor work - being part of a team and everything. i was pretty ******ed and don't think i helped out all that much, but my junior resident seemed to appreciate the effort anyway.
 
thanks so much everyone for your awesome input and taking the time to give such thorough responses...i'll post how the rotation is going as i'm going through it...thanks again.
 
😍 everything above, except that my attending knew everything and there was nothing I was going to teach him about anything...still, I tried and he liked it that I went away and read about stuff.

😀 on practicing knot-tying. You might get one chance and if you blow it, you might not get another.

:scared: 😱 on studying for the shelf exam. You can get a great clinical eval and then drop your grade down to a P right here. Study your ass off and focus on diagnostics, management, etc. as mentioned above.
 
The above posts are great. Here's some more humorous/cynical advice to keep in mind:

1. Know everything about every subject and every patient, but don't be a know-it-all. You may want to see if you can pick up a copy of First Aid for Mind Reading.
2. Tell them you want to go into surgery, even if it's not true. When you do subspecialties, tell them that you want to go into their subspecialty, even if you don't. This little white lie can be a huge factor in your grade.
3. Don't ever try to be funnier, smarter, or better looking than your resident or attending. At the same time, don't be dry, stupid, or ugly.
4. Never, ever break the heirarchy protocol. This means that on rounds, you should be last in line walking down the hall. If you get the green light to scrub into a case, never ever finish scrubbing before anyone above you. Even if the attending spends 3 seconds scrubbing, don't even think about finishing before the resident. If your resident or intern is getting pimped, and you know the answer, don't offer an answer. Wait until you are called upon.
5. Don't take anything personal. Many of them will ignore you, try to offend you, and criticize you over the smallest details, even if you are a rock star of a student.
6. Don't ever let your guard down. They most likely have no interest in being your friend or getting to know you as a person. If you ever start to feel like they are warming up to you, it's a trap. Keep your guard up.
7. Despite all the nonsense of the surgical world, try to have fun. Some of the funniest stories from medical school happen during the long, stressful hours of the surgical rotation.
 
Surgeons typically have the same personality flaws as actors, athletes, CEO's, etc.., but these flaws serve to help them become exacting people that love perfection. That being said, I would have to say that it's helpful to lick everyones nutz on the rotation... proverbially. Most of these people love ego-stroking... not things like "good job," but something more elaborate along the lines of "that was a slick one-handed tie I saw you pull in the OR today. After I get the lab-list done, if you have a minute, would you mind showing me how its done?" Compliments mean nothing to them from someone a little lower on the totem pole... an opportunity to teach someone something that they have perfected, though, is the highest form of mastery to them.
Also, don't be an obvious suck-azz, but try to be a cool cat. Being nice w/o being a tool goes a long way.
Of course the other info is way more important than this, but this could be the "cherry" that pushes you from a high pass to honors.
:luck: :luck:
 
Any other recommendations for books? How did everyone stay brushed up on the anatomy? I sold my Netter to a first year and I'm starting to freak out thinking I might need it. Anyone have suggestions for staying on top of those "what is this" questions?
 
Any other recommendations for books? How did everyone stay brushed up on the anatomy? I sold my Netter to a first year and I'm starting to freak out thinking I might need it. Anyone have suggestions for staying on top of those "what is this" questions?

I wouldn't sweat anatomy too much. I spent 6 weeks of general surgery last year and got pimped on anatomy maybe once. Don't remember ever getting asked on 3 weeks of vascular surgery. On neurosurgery, however, I did get hit on the basics of the spine plus more obscure cranial features (e.g. foramens). Don't have time to prepare for the later nuances, however.

I spent a bit of time looking at the OR schedule and trying to plan what operations I would see. Seldom worked as plan. Something would happen, and I would wind up losing sleep after studying about a hemicolectomy, and wind up in a cholecystectomy.

Now having done close to 16 weeks of surgery as an MS-IV, I think the more appropriate answer is that what little anatomy you need is very procedure-specific. The best source: SURGICAL RECALL. If you're going into an inguinal hernia, you need to know the superficial epigastric vein (once of the first things you encounter and then ligate during an incision), maybe layers of the abdominal wall (the external oblique being the first muscle you hit), external and internal ring, the spermatic cord and its contents, and that just about covers it. For a cholecystectomy, Calot's triangle and what's in (Calot's node, cystic artery). Maybe the ligamentum teres hepatis as you it immediately during laparoscopy as it connects the liver to the ab wall. This stuff is in SURGICAL RECALL. Netter's might not even help, because it's more applicable to a gross dissection where you rip everything away. An insicion for a hernia or an appendectomy is around 2 inches long. You don't see much. You have a good idea of what you'll see in that little window. Hence, if you do want something, it would be a surgical atlas. But once again, SURGICAL RECALL has some pics, and maybe a surgical textbook like Sabiston's can discuss the importance of pimp-able structures during dissection (if you have time).

The one place where you can get slaughtered with basic anatomy is reading CT scans (as well as chest and abdominal plain films). But aside from knowing major organs and vessels, it probably isn't worth concentrating on now.

So overall, don't sweat it. Quite a few surgery attendings don't seem to care that much, especially if you're in a big program where there a lot of people on a team. They simply don't have time to dwell on you. Try to learn if your attending does ask questions in the OR; some barely talk at all. A few are merciless. Surgical Recall should save you from feeling too bad.

I wouldn't stress too much about an anatomical atlas. If it's not in Surgical Recall or a very basic text, your time is probably better spent either studying for the shelf or sleeping.
 
For me, it was very hard to identify structures in surgery when asked in the beginning because looking at structures in the OR in a very contained field is nothing like Netters. What worked for me is I would read Sabistons, for the specific operations I was gonna see the next day. I would memorize the steps of the surgery so that I knew what was going on. For example, if I knew that in a chole we were about to ligate the cystic artery, then when the surgeon pointed out the structure and asked what it was I knew it immediately because I knew what step we were at. Otherwise, just read Surgical Recall, it has the most basic stuff. Also MOST surgeons will never ask really really pointless details when asking 'what is this structure' type questions in the OR; it will always be some key structure that is very important to the operation; hence knowing the key technical steps of the procedure beforehand is important.
 
As far as anatomy goes, the pimpable anatomy you don't really get in Netter. Our anatomy class never covered Triangle of Calot, or at least I certaintly did not care at the time. You will care during the 57 lap choles you see. NMS Surgery has been awesome all around, people love recall, but it doesnt really work for me. Unfortunately I am not an allstar outline learner, so I used Lawrence for the important topics. It'll also talk somewhat about indications and complications. And really, don't take anything personally. You are being corrected 1. because you are doing something wrong, 2. because the surgeon is a picky (can you swear?) or 3. some combination of the two, i.e. surgeon 1 told you to ALWAYS do this, surgeon 2 (usually his partner) says NEVER. There must be something wrong with me, I really enjoyed the absurdity of the rotation and people, I thought it was funny.
 
Well, I disagree about questions. I ask them in the OR, but almost always ask whether I can ask. The attendings have all been very happy to get questions and I walk away with understanding I didn't have before.

Also, no one has mentioned that if you are polite to the scrub/circulating nurses, they can make your life much better as well (2 have helped me learn to suture, I always get the foley insertions, and get corrected quietly if necessary). I like Mont Reid as a text, but feel I really need some practice questions...

The beginning of surgical recall has tons of great tips for the rotation


Books- you'll see quite a few Surgery Recall books floating around in pockets. This is great for pimping, a must-read prior to scrubbing for your procedure, but really won't help much on the board. I didn't like FA, thought Case Files was so-so, but really wish I had used the NMS Surgery Casebook looking back. You'll find that the shelf exam is about management, what diagnostic test to order next, which diagnostic test is best, etc.

List- you will likely be responsible for updating the list in the morning prior to rounds. Things you must include- POD# (post-op day), fluids in/out, drains, NG output, their diet regimen, flatus/BM, electrolytes, what their wound looked like, presence of bowel sounds, pain control. Have it done before they expect it. Try and work on as much of it as possible before you leave for the day- you won't be as precise at 4:30 a.m. These residents hate floor work, basically want to get through it to charge their way into the OR, so don't be late, 'cause they'll start without you.


Attitude- Lose it. Unless you have just **the nicest** group of surgery residents to walk the earth, suppress your personality, too. If you like to joke, they'll think you don't take anything seriously. Exception is in the OR (again, their favorite place), where a few properly told jokes/anecdotes/observations can lighten the burden of that 4 hour lap appy. Basically, you are a drone to them, sent to update the list, see patients, remove sutures/staples, drain pus, write notes, etc. They usually don't care what you did over the weekend, and certainly will ridicule your chosen specialty unless it involves a general surgery stint. No stupid questions, either. Search back a few days on this forum to the poor guy who has to speak to the Chief of Surgery for mistaking which procedure he was scrubbing in for. As a matter of fact, unless you want to actually be a GS resident at the hospital you are working, I would steer clear of asking any questions, unless you already know the answer. Let the upper levels focus on pimping the intern, not you! Find the nice surgeon, work with him/her if you need an LOR.

Rounds- Keep your presentation brief, like 60 sec. "Mr. X is POD#? s/p Lap whatever for obstruction. Overnight vitals were stable, afebrile, pain 2/10, was +1000 fluids, good UOP, tolerated clear liquids, will start regular diet today. Wound looks good, no drainage, no erythema. Good bowel sounds, passed flatus and had first BM last night. NG drainage clear, less than 200 overnight." Maybe they'll ask for your plan, maybe they'll just tell the intern what to do. This is nothing like IM, where the team can spend 20 minutes outside each room, with each team member contributing their thoughts. You will round on 10 patients in 20 minutes, and you should really have nothing to say if it is not your patient. Certainly there will be time to ask questions, but morning rounds is not it.

Committment- Basically, the interns have committed their life to the dream you dare consider. Early mornings, late nights. Get there before they do, leave only after they've told you to. Don't ever complain about the hours, the work, or anything other than the hospital food. Their life is harder than yours (or they think it is). Put on a smile, act like you love every minute, and volunteer to do anything. But don't be too aggressive, either. By week two you should have learned to anticipate what they will want, so try to be ahead of them. Know the history of the patient heading for the emergent appy so you can tell them about it.
 
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Some things I remember from surgery:

- it's always good to look at the chest xray/ct scan before rounds, i could explain the CT findings but that isnt enough, they want u to actually look at the studies. Also, it is a good idea to know what the pathology reports say as well (if something was resected)

-It's always good to know pre-op hematocrit, and how much fluid was given during surgery, blood loss during surgery; One of my patients HCT dropped and I looked like an idiot when I reported it cuz i didnt know how much fluid the patient received, pre-op HCT, etc.. u get the picture, basically u gotta know alot of details on your patient. That goes with any rotation tho.

- it helps to scrub in on long cases. I never wanted to, but one time I got stuck with a whipple and i was in the OR for 10 hours; my chief told me i could scrub out to piss or eat lunch (he was really nice) but I said i was cool, even tho i was dying. And i think thats what got me an A on my eval for that part of surgery, so part of it is just playing the game. It also helps, that atleast at my school, the surgery residents are all pretty laid back and really fun to work with, I didnt really feel that in other rotations.

later
 
More things that can make big differences:

Don't ever, ever, ever complain. I have done this tons on SDN, but nowhere else out loud. This is because you will have classmates who whine a lot and they will get on your last nerve. When you are tired & beat- just observe the whole process. You will be there doing the rotation no matter what, just experience it for what it is. Likewise, if you get a really wonderful night's sleep, or less call than your classmates/team, don't mention this out loud. Someone near you was up all night for sure. One of my classmates was constantly better rested due to a lighter call schedule and loved to tell us about it. Really poor form.

If your hospital charts paper notes, as in other rotations do not write yours after the higher-ups. This can really tic people off.

Practice suturing & knot tying now if you can. Know how to hold the scissors, that you cut with the tip while supinating, etc...

Keep many many snacks in your pockets, and hydrate lots. I would bolus every AM (I am not kidding) with about 1-2 liters of water around 0400, then I would pee all morning 'till the first case- always for us at 0800. But I would snack on something salty at about 0700. Thus I had little need to void while scrubbed in.

Remember that all of the advice in this thread is excellent to follow. That said do very little above and beyond the call of duty during the first day or two- read personalities first and get to know the routine- then dazzzle them all. Call a trusted classmate and ask abut the personalities you will be working with (this has been invaluable to me psychologically 3rd year).

If you wanna do more than just pass, you absolutely have to spank the shelf exam.
 
Lie to them, say that you want to do surgery even if you don't. I learned this the hard way.

Do a good job with the morning notes. Even though surgeons are known for hating clinical medicine and note writing, that's the only real responsibility you have, and one of the major ways they grade you.

Keep your mouth shut most of the time. Only ask questions that are at their level, "Say, are you familiar with the 1986 Dallas study on inhalation injuries." Don't ever ask questions on something that's actually useful for passing the Surgery board exam, like "Which antibiotics are typically used in bowel cases?" They get irritated, and tell you to go read a book.

Look like you interested while your in the OR, even if you've seen 300 of those God damn surgeries during your rotation, it's 7 p.m. in the evening, and all you really care about is going home.
 
Lie to them, say that you want to do surgery even if you don't. I learned this the hard way.
Going in to third year this was my mantra, too. Somehow, I couldn't lie to the FP docs during my first rotation. Once I let loose what my intentions were, I continued the honesty. I was oftened asked this question in front of the team, like on day one, and it was similarly hard for me to lie in front of my fellow med students, who all knew what I wanted to do. If they know or think) you are interested in their specialty, they will actually be a little harder on you.

Funny, by the end of the year I was shameless about my specialty choice, and that's not easy, because Anesthesia has the impression of easy money. When I got some of my reviews back, a few comments were, "did very well on this rotation, which is remarkable because he is not interested in Psych". I asked the surgery attending to write a letter, and that lead to a discussion of him choosing anesthesiology if he were to do it all over again.

Of course, I knew what I was going into prior to third year. If you truly don't know, or are honestly considering a few specialties, then you can claim to "be interested" in whatever. I just found it easier to be open, which for me meant, "No, I'm not applying for OB/GYN, but I do think it is interesting!"
 
Success in the surgery clerkship:

1. Be professional - always be on time, never complain, never whine under any circumstance, be compassionate towards patients. Throw out preconceived notions about surgeons not caring about patients - that will get you nowhere. Work with your classmates as a team. Help each other, divide tasks for maximum efficiency. Teach each other (classmates, not attendings!). Treat everyone with utmost respect.
2. Anticipate tasks and things that would make the service run smoother. For example if you hear someone mention basic tasks on rounds, jot them down and volunteer to do them after rounds. If you want someone to walk you through a procedure, ask what supplies you need and bring them to the bedside for the resident. Bring supplies with you for rounds. Learn to maximize efficiency both personally and for the team.
3. Books: For the OR - Surgical Recall for general pimping, Zollinger's Atlas for higher level pimping. For oral exams: NMS Casebook. For shelf: lots of prayer.
4. Know your role. You are not there to educate others, show off your vast knowledge, or attempt to outshine the intern. You are there to learn and do scut. Pay your dues first. If you don't do scut, who will? While this is somewhat of an exaggeration, it's not far from reality.
5. Follow the chain of command but at the same time, don't be too afraid to interact with attendings. Impressing the intern will only get you so far.
6. Impressing others will come naturally as a result of your anticipation, work ethic, and knowledge base. The stars will naturally shine. Trying too hard to impress is annoying and potentially detrimental.
 
One more thing from an anesthesia perspective: Don't ask about fluids and EBL when we're extubating someone. Don't yell this from across the room "Hey anesthesia..." If we look busy, we are and you'll have plenty of time in the PACU to write your post op note. If we say 2300, this is 2300 mL LR unless stated otherwise. You can assume 2300 'crystalloid' is LR, unless stated otherwise.

If a patient moves during surgery, we know it. If your attending informs me of this, fine. If not then you don't have to.
Also, as a med student, your job at the end of a case is to steer the stretcher and open the doors. Not walk behind me.

If you don't scrub on a case, feel free to ask if you can come behind the drapes. The view is better and we don't bite. Ask first of course, but you might learn something.
 
One more thing from an anesthesia perspective: Don't ask about fluids and EBL when we're extubating someone. Don't yell this from across the room "Hey anesthesia..." If we look busy, we are and you'll have plenty of time in the PACU to write your post op note. If we say 2300, this is 2300 mL LR unless stated otherwise. You can assume 2300 'crystalloid' is LR, unless stated otherwise..

Don't assume this, clarify, this is one persons opinion from one institution.

If a patient moves during surgery, we know it. If your attending informs me of this, fine. If not then you don't have to.

They don't know it, if they knew it the patient wouldnt be moving. Tell them, and say it loudly...roll your eyes afterwards.

Also, as a med student, your job at the end of a case is to steer the stretcher and open the doors. Not walk behind me.

Actually, your job is to learn, let the guy getting paid push the load, your not going to impress your attendings with your steering skills, write the note, write the orders ask follow up questions about the case THEN, if you have time help gassy push the stretcher.

If you don't scrub on a case, feel free to ask if you can come behind the drapes. The view is better and we don't bite. Ask first of course, but you might learn something.

This is true.
 
One more thing from an anesthesia perspective: Don't ask about fluids and EBL when we're extubating someone. Don't yell this from across the room "Hey anesthesia..." If we look busy, we are and you'll have plenty of time in the PACU to write your post op note.

Wow....
 
Success in the surgery clerkship:

1. Be professional - always be on time, never complain, never whine under any circumstance, be compassionate towards patients. Throw out preconceived notions about surgeons not caring about patients - that will get you nowhere. Work with your classmates as a team. Help each other, divide tasks for maximum efficiency. Teach each other (classmates, not attendings!). Treat everyone with utmost respect.
2. Anticipate tasks and things that would make the service run smoother. For example if you hear someone mention basic tasks on rounds, jot them down and volunteer to do them after rounds. If you want someone to walk you through a procedure, ask what supplies you need and bring them to the bedside for the resident. Bring supplies with you for rounds. Learn to maximize efficiency both personally and for the team.
3. Books: For the OR - Surgical Recall for general pimping, Zollinger's Atlas for higher level pimping. For oral exams: NMS Casebook. For shelf: lots of prayer.
4. Know your role. You are not there to educate others, show off your vast knowledge, or attempt to outshine the intern. You are there to learn and do scut. Pay your dues first. If you don't do scut, who will? While this is somewhat of an exaggeration, it's not far from reality.
5. Follow the chain of command but at the same time, don't be too afraid to interact with attendings. Impressing the intern will only get you so far.
6. Impressing others will come naturally as a result of your anticipation, work ethic, and knowledge base. Those who are stars will be revealed. Trying too hard to impress is annoying and potentially detrimental.

filter07's advice is MONEY. 👍 Couldn't be said any better.

Lie to them, say that you want to do surgery even if you don't. I learned this the hard way.

Please don't lie. If you lie, it is often painfully obvious. From the perspective of a resident grading you, I won't hold it against you just because you are set on going into, say, psych or family medicine -- as long as you show a genuine interest in learning and getting something out of the rotation. Even as a psychiatrist, you should be able to recognize when to call a surgical consult and what might constitute a surgical emergency. Some of the best students I have had told me upfront they were interested in ob/gyn or family medicine, but were still enthusiastic about learning. Also if you help out, it sure is appreciated, but learning is your first priority, not scut. It's inappropriate for residents to scut you out because you are there to learn. There is plenty of time for figuring out how to do scut as an intern. That said, if on rounds you see an opportunity to lend a hand, don't be shy. For example, if you can help us with a dressing change by holding up a patient's limb or finding tape, it will be a greatly appreciated gesture rather than standing around and just watching us run around like headless chickens. Also, in the clinic setting, seeing patients independently is not only a learning opportunity but also helps out. I have been in clinics where as the resident, I'm the only one picking up new charts while students just follow me or the attending around or hang out in the conference room while unseen patients wait. That sort of behavior hurts the evaluation more than not being able to name the borders of hasselbach's triangle. Finally, no need to be scared and timid -- just relax and be yourself, but be eager to learn and help if you can.
 
Also, in the clinic setting, seeing patients independently is not only a learning opportunity but also helps out. I have been in clinics where as the resident, I'm the only one picking up new charts while students just follow me or the attending around or hang out in the conference room while unseen patients wait. That sort of behavior hurts the evaluation more than not being able to name the borders of hasselbach's triangle. Finally, no need to be scared and timid -- just relax and be yourself, but be eager to learn and help if you can.

I dunno about this one. In my rotation, if I did this I would have been chewed out royally. As it was, they were pretty harsh but they seemed to tolerate me following along behind them quietly. That was a stupid way to learn how to work with patients in the clinic - I would totally have loved to speak to patients on my own.

So, warning to others - know your own team and know waht is appropriate for them as far as you're concerned. It is so attending dependent. I had one surgery attending who loved it when I was assertive and sort of in his face, and another who seemed to blow steam out of her ears when I dared to ask a question out of the OR. 😕

Third year take mucho patience and even more digging around in your bag of psychological coping mechanisms.
 
Also, in the clinic setting, seeing patients independently is not only a learning opportunity but also helps out. I have been in clinics where as the resident, I'm the only one picking up new charts while students just follow me or the attending around or hang out in the conference room while unseen patients wait. That sort of behavior hurts the evaluation more than not being able to name the borders of hasselbach's triangle. Finally, no need to be scared and timid -- just relax and be yourself, but be eager to learn and help if you can.

I dunno about this one. In my rotation, if I did this I would have been chewed out royally. As it was, they were pretty harsh but they seemed to tolerate me following along behind them quietly in clinic. I wasn't really even allowed to talk to patients. That was a stupid way to learn how to work with patients in the clinic - I would totally have loved to speak to them on my own.

So, warning to others - know your own team and know what is appropriate for them as far as you're concerned. It is so attending dependent. I had one surgery attending who loved it when I was assertive and sort of in his face, and another who seemed to blow steam out of her ears when I dared to ask a question out of the OR. 😕

Third year take mucho patience and even more digging around in your bag of psychological coping mechanisms.
 
I dunno about this one. In my rotation, if I did this I would have been chewed out royally. As it was, they were pretty harsh but they seemed to tolerate me following along behind them quietly in clinic. I wasn't really even allowed to talk to patients. That was a stupid way to learn how to work with patients in the clinic - I would totally have loved to speak to them on my own.

So, warning to others - know your own team and know what is appropriate for them as far as you're concerned. It is so attending dependent. I had one surgery attending who loved it when I was assertive and sort of in his face, and another who seemed to blow steam out of her ears when I dared to ask a question out of the OR. 😕

Third year take mucho patience and even more digging around in your bag of psychological coping mechanisms.

Agreed -- feel out your situation first. At our institution though, 3rd years are expected to see surgery clinic patients on their own and present to attendings (across the board, not attending-dependent). You're not expected to have a perfect assessment and detailed plan, but being able to get the relevant details of the H+P is a good learning experience and saves the attending time. (win-win situation)
 
Not a third year yet, so my apologies if this is an incredibly stupid question. There are a number of posts discussing the need "to feel the team out." Is it not appropriate to just ask how they would like you to get things down? For example, wouldn't it be easier to ask if you should see patients on your own in clinic? That way you aren't being labled as lazy for sitting around if the team feels you should and you won't be getting chewed out for doing something you're not supposed to if that is the case instead.

Perhaps such a direct approach is just too countercurrent to the traditions of the academic medical world.🙄
 
Not a third year yet, so my apologies if this is an incredibly stupid question. There are a number of posts discussing the need "to feel the team out." Is it not appropriate to just ask how they would like you to get things down? For example, wouldn't it be easier to ask if you should see patients on your own in clinic? That way you aren't being labled as lazy for sitting around if the team feels you should and you won't be getting chewed out for doing something you're not supposed to if that is the case instead.

Perhaps such a direct approach is just too countercurrent to the traditions of the academic medical world.🙄

Not a stupid question. Excellent point -- if the chief doesn't do it, you should ask at the start of the rotation to clearly delineate the expectations and method of evaluation. Better to clarify upfront than get burned later.
 
It can be quite difficult to get this information up front, since there is a "right" answer for the resident (i.e., ' I want you to learn; you shouldn't be doing scut' 'make sure you have enough time to study, don't stay to late') which doesn't really reflect what you should be doing in their mind or how they're going to evaluate you ("help out the team" and "stay until the work is done and everyone else goes home.", respectively). Also, it's hard to ask the question for every little thing that comes up. I mean, did you even know there was a "right" place for the med student to be in the procession from the operating room before 2ndyear told you? And it varies from place to place. And in some places there isn't a "right" place for you to be, and if you ask you'll be seen as pretty silly.

Anka
 
It can be quite difficult to get this information up front, since there is a "right" answer for the resident (i.e., ' I want you to learn; you shouldn't be doing scut' 'make sure you have enough time to study, don't stay to late') which doesn't really reflect what you should be doing in their mind or how they're going to evaluate you ("help out the team" and "stay until the work is done and everyone else goes home.", respectively). Also, it's hard to ask the question for every little thing that comes up. I mean, did you even know there was a "right" place for the med student to be in the procession from the operating room before 2ndyear told you? And it varies from place to place. And in some places there isn't a "right" place for you to be, and if you ask you'll be seen as pretty silly.

👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍



Holy smokes you like pluggin' that blog. Have you inquired if the SDN demigods could add it to the medical school menu on the homepage? Maybe a sticky on top of this forum?

:idea:

Next week- start a thread, but the post should only include a link to your blog, where the actual question/commentary is contained.
 
From the fellow's perspective, I really don't care for it when a student tells me he wants to go into surgery and it isn't true. I suppose there are some out there that would grade you more stringently if you chose some dubious field like Psych as your life's work, but in reality, IMHO, most residents and faculty just want to see that you are enjoying learning. I don't care if you don't want to go into surgery, but please don't roll your eyes when I mention the cases for the day and say, "ANOTHER inguinal hernia? Geez." Your disdain comes across not as dislike of surgery, but as distaste for the educational process.

I disagree with the advice to say the patient was "stable" overnight on report. Stable means a lot of things but it doesn't necessarily mean "within normal range." One nice young nurse will likely not forget the conversation we had when I was told my patient was stable overnight and I questioned the BP in the 70s, "well, it was 70 all night, so it didn't change. It was STABLE.":scared: Just give the range or at the very least say the vital signs were within normal range please.

I like small talk as much as the next person, and might even care about what you did over the weekend; after all, I can live vicariously through your no-doubt active social life. But if I don't ask, it might not be the right time to engage in a social conversation. Try and feel the mood of the room as well as the team; if the case isn't going well, now is not the time to ask a question or talk about your new car.

Make nice with the OR techs and scrubs. If they say you've contaminated yourself and/or the field - YOU DID. Don't argue. Its not worth it and they're probably right anyway. Some are mean to medical students - its apparent. Don't take it personally, its just their way of grabbing some power. But if they like you (and most will), they will teach you to prep, put in the Foleys etc.

On rounds - I expect you to be at the FRONT of the pack, not the back. You should be leading the team to the next patient's room, have the chart available (if at bedside), etc. A student who lags behind the line seems uninterested...but perhaps, given posts above, this differs at other programs. I've never seen it otherwise than I've described.

Important stuff about not complaining about hours, call, etc. We DO have it harder than you - students don't realize all the work that goes on behind the scenes, the calls that you never hear about, the incessant stupid pages, and most importantly the STRESS which comes from being a resident...at all levels. Besides, those who are Chief residents and fellows worked in the days before 80 hrs - we didn't go home post call, so we know a little bit about what its really like to be tired.

Ask halfway through the rotation how you're doing - what you can do to improve, what you're doing well. There shouldn't be any suprises come evaluation time then.

And finally, don't kiss up to the Chief resident or fellow but be rude to the intern. We hear about that and it gets the message across that you're a booklicker, looking to kiss up to the superiors. Doesn't go over well.
 
I dunno about this one. In my rotation, if I did this I would have been chewed out royally. As it was, they were pretty harsh but they seemed to tolerate me following along behind them quietly. That was a stupid way to learn how to work with patients in the clinic - I would totally have loved to speak to patients on my own.

So, warning to others - know your own team and know waht is appropriate for them as far as you're concerned. It is so attending dependent. I had one surgery attending who loved it when I was assertive and sort of in his face, and another who seemed to blow steam out of her ears when I dared to ask a question out of the OR. 😕

Third year take mucho patience and even more digging around in your bag of psychological coping mechanisms.


That's too bad because seeing patients first and independently is a real learning tool. I always spend some time with the new students and let them know the rules of the clinic - ie, this attending will let you see anyone who walks in the door, this one only wants you to see return patients, etc. So, its good to ask what the expectation is but its really a shame because having to struggle with a patient on your own for a bit really helps you hone your skills, IMHO.
 
I suppose there are some out there that would grade you more stringently if you chose some dubious field like Psych as your life's work,

I think this brings up a great lesson for medical students out there: don't go into dubious fields.

If you're an unfortunate soul planning on going into a dubious field, don't bring up the fact that you're looking to turn dubiousness into a career. Even if you're not exactly thinking about going into that least dubious of fields -- general surgery -- (for there is nothing dubious about the bowel or stool), either learn to fake non-dubiety or make something up. Like ENT (one must admit that the head and neck region is sketchier, and more dubious, than the bowel, however).

And for baby Jesus' sake, never let a surgeon hear that you dig Doobie Brothers.

If anyone has any tips on not being dubious in life, send me a PM, please.
 

what?

There is plenty of time to get EBL/fluids in the PACU...or on the walk to the PACU. Write the rest of the BON and then ask them when they look like they have a free moment to tell you...it takes two seconds, why bother anesthesia with that right when there in the middle of extubating? Its just rude...
 
I disagree with the advice to say the patient was "stable" overnight on report. Stable means a lot of things but it doesn't necessarily mean "within normal range."

Thanks for another perspective- you filled in a few of the holes we forgot.

I agree that "stable" gives little description and is a poor way to convey overnight events. However, the students showed up an hour before the chief (that's two hours before the roosters) precisely to compile a list which should include the vitals on every patient. When it's 7:15 and your team has three more rooms to see before humping it ten minutes across the skybridge to morning conference (a.k.a. nap time), interested parties can browse the vitals I recorded if they don't trust my judgment. I'm wasting the team's time by spouting off every value that's clearly printed on the list. I know, it's not educational, but my surgery rotation was about survival more than education.
 
Thanks for another perspective- you filled in a few of the holes we forgot.

I agree that "stable" gives little description and is a poor way to convey overnight events. However, the students showed up an hour before the chief (that's two hours before the roosters) precisely to compile a list which should include the vitals on every patient. When it's 7:15 and your team has three more rooms to see before humping it ten minutes across the skybridge to morning conference (a.k.a. nap time), interested parties can browse the vitals I recorded if they don't trust my judgment. I'm wasting the team's time by spouting off every value that's clearly printed on the list. I know, it's not educational, but my surgery rotation was about survival more than education.

I agree - there is no need to spout off a list of vital signs, especially if they are normal; I've been there before as well - ie, coming in before the roosters, standing there listening to medical students slowly give their presentation while wondering if I was going to be late to the OR, etc.

My point was that it takes little more time to say the vitals were within normal range rather than stable, or the blood pressure was elevated overnight, and is more accurate and is a good practice to get into. But then, I was trained that students don't know what "stable" is, so that's my bias!
 
I think this brings up a great lesson for medical students out there: don't go into dubious fields.

If you're an unfortunate soul planning on going into a dubious field, don't bring up the fact that you're looking to turn dubiousness into a career. Even if you're not exactly thinking about going into that least dubious of fields -- general surgery -- (for there is nothing dubious about the bowel or stool), either learn to fake non-dubiety or make something up. Like ENT (one must admit that the head and neck region is sketchier, and more dubious, than the bowel, however).

And for baby Jesus' sake, never let a surgeon hear that you dig Doobie Brothers.

If anyone has any tips on not being dubious in life, send me a PM, please.


Although I was being sarcastic, I know am dubious about my decision to use that word in my previous post! 😉
 
Lie to them, say that you want to do surgery even if you don't. I learned this the hard way.
I like how automatic the response usually is if you say you want to do something other than surgery. I told one attending I was considering pathology, and he said, "Pathology? What a worthless ... actually, no, we need good pathologists."
 
It can be quite difficult to get this information up front, since there is a "right" answer for the resident (i.e., ' I want you to learn; you shouldn't be doing scut' 'make sure you have enough time to study, don't stay to late') which doesn't really reflect what you should be doing in their mind or how they're going to evaluate you ("help out the team" and "stay until the work is done and everyone else goes home.", respectively).
Actually I try to be pretty specific to students on the first day of the rotation -- expectations: pre-round on 2-3 floor pts, present the pts during morning rounds, learn how to present in a concise surgical format, make a reasonable stab at an assessment and plan. In clinic, see patients, present them to the attending, write notes or H&Ps. For the OR, read up on cases the night before -- know the pathophysiology, workup, indications, complications, basic anatomy. Write the op note. Usually your eval is based on the knowledge base and clinical understanding that you demonstrate and how well you relate to patients and peers. The eval process isn't completely random, but it is admittedly subjective and imperfect. As mentioned above, seeking feedback on how to improve midway through the rotation also helps and shows that you are proactive and interested in learning.

Also, it's hard to ask the question for every little thing that comes up. I mean, did you even know there was a "right" place for the med student to be in the procession from the operating room before 2ndyear told you? And it varies from place to place. And in some places there isn't a "right" place for you to be, and if you ask you'll be seen as pretty silly.

These minutiae fall in the category of things you should ask other third or fourth year students. It helps to ask a friend who went through the rotation give you a rundown of what to expect and little tips -- like what to have in your pockets or what certain attendings like to pimp on.
 
Actually I try to be pretty specific to students on the first day of the rotation -- expectations: pre-round on 2-3 floor pts, present the pts during morning rounds, learn how to present in a concise surgical format, make a reasonable stab at an assessment and plan. In clinic, see patients, present them to the attending, write notes or H&Ps. For the OR, read up on cases the night before -- know the pathophysiology, workup, indications, complications, basic anatomy. Write the op note. Usually your eval is based on the knowledge base and clinical understanding that you demonstrate and how well you relate to patients and peers. The eval process isn't completely random, but it is admittedly subjective and imperfect. As mentioned above, seeking feedback on how to improve midway through the rotation also helps and shows that you are proactive and interested in learning.

You sound like a great resident that I'd get along with. Unfortunately, not all surgery interns/residents are created like you. Or maybe they just get beat down throughout the years. I've had a chief try to start a pissing contest with me about the car I drove. Then in the OR, after we had finished a colectomy, he sat in a chair, stared at me and smirked as I removed the rectal tube and wiped down the mess. Pretty damn repressed, if you ask me. Now he's out practicing somewhere, somewhere I never hope to be.

As for the procession of heierarchy during rounds, I've seen one intern shoulder check another to make his way to the front of the pack. Seriously.
 
You sound like a great resident that I'd get along with. Unfortunately, not all surgery interns/residents are created like you. Or maybe they just get beat down throughout the years. I've had a chief try to start a pissing contest with me about the car I drove. Then in the OR, after we had finished a colectomy, he sat in a chair, stared at me and smirked as I removed the rectal tube and wiped down the mess. Pretty damn repressed, if you ask me. Now he's out practicing somewhere, somewhere I never hope to be.

As for the procession of heierarchy during rounds, I've seen one intern shoulder check another to make his way to the front of the pack. Seriously.

Wow - I'm truly sorry to hear these things happened to you. I guess it is sadly not a rare occurrence. My good buddy from med school was similarly abused on his surgery rotation (in contrast to my MS3 experience). Just because I have a bad day (month, year, residency) doesn't mean I have the right to go home and kick the cat. I know what's it's like to be the cat. It is a wonder what a crapshoot it is in terms of the group of people you end up with on each rotation and how that ultimately influences your career path.
 
It is a wonder what a crapshoot it is in terms of the group of people you end up with on each rotation and how that ultimately influences your career path.

Yeah. Luckily, by and large I've worked with good residents. When I had the others, it was only for a brief period, like a couple weeks. Sure teaches me a good lesson about what kind of resident I will be, though.
 
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