surgeon with dual degree

[anxietypeaker]

hey everyone. I'm just wondering if theres any reason to do an MD-PhD if planning on doing a surgical specialty. I realize the dual degree will help you to get into things like otolaryng/plastics/etc. But other than getting into a competitive specialty, it seems to ME that the phd training wouldve been better served if it were rewarded to someone who wanted to do nonsurg specialty. Granted, a greater knowledge of fundamental processes helps a lil bit, but to take 4 years out of ur life to do it seems ridiculous (for surgical specialists). In other words, i always thought MD-PhDs are first scientists, and second medical doctors. Moreover, the scientist portion being focused on basic as opposed to translational/clinical research. Any thoughts (esp. from surgeons with these degrees or people who plan on surgery in an mdphd program)?

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[Neuronix]

I hate to see a question go unanswered. But, I'm going to be lazy and ask you to do a search. I wrote several paragraphs on this last month and it's been debated several times in the past as well. If you can't find this stuff let me know.

I also really don't think the PhD is going to matter that much when it comes to specialties that are traditionally more clinically oriented. You'll still need the 240+ and good clinical grades for the competitive specialties that all the MD applicants have.

 

[RxnMan]

hey everyone. I'm just wondering if theres any reason to do an MD-PhD if planning on doing a surgical specialty...In other words, i always thought MD-PhDs are first scientists, and second medical doctors. Moreover, the scientist portion being focused on basic as opposed to translational/clinical research. Any thoughts (esp. from surgeons with these degrees or people who plan on surgery in an mdphd program)?

Ehh, putting the doctor or the scientist first is a matter of what YOUR priorities are - I've seen all shades of the two. In surgery there is a need for researchers, and for precisely the reasons you stated, not many surgeons get PhDs. I have met a few surgeons with masters degrees, and those that do have a more research/academic bent and they use their degrees.

That being said, this post will give you an idea of how much PDs prize an applicant's PhD.

 

[boston]

hey everyone. I'm just wondering if theres any reason to do an MD-PhD if planning on doing a surgical specialty. I realize the dual degree will help you to get into things like otolaryng/plastics/etc. But other than getting into a competitive specialty, it seems to ME that the phd training wouldve been better served if it were rewarded to someone who wanted to do nonsurg specialty. Granted, a greater knowledge of fundamental processes helps a lil bit, but to take 4 years out of ur life to do it seems ridiculous (for surgical specialists). In other words, i always thought MD-PhDs are first scientists, and second medical doctors. Moreover, the scientist portion being focused on basic as opposed to translational/clinical research. Any thoughts (esp. from surgeons with these degrees or people who plan on surgery in an mdphd program)?

It really depends on what setting you see yourself and what you plan to do in your career. Doing a PhD just to make yourself a more competitive candidate is not a good reason. There are good reasons: for example, you see yourself in an academic setting and plan to spend a good portion of your time and efforts guiding translational research or directing your own lab. Although it is difficult to do both well, it certainly is possible to be an active clinician (surgeon) and researcher. PhDs might do well in subspecialties like transplant, surgical oncology, etc.

 

[strangeglove]

I agree that an MD-PhD program should not be seen as a way to bolster your resume. It is for people seriously interested in a research career. Another bad reason is to do an MD-PhD to receive a free medical education. That being said, there are a number of MD-PhD surgeons. Some surgical specialties are more conducive to research than others. For example, neurosurgery and gyencologic oncology involves quite a bit of research.

 

[JETER]

That being said, this post will give you an idea of how much PDs prize an applicant's PhD.

As an MSTPer gung-ho for ortho, I have to make a comment:

I would advise anyone who might have been concerned reading that post to pay attention to the other listings in the post. If you "aim" your research/PhD area at orthopaedics (or neuro for Nsurg, cranial/facial for ENT, etc), you not only hit the MD/PhD ranking, you also nail the "Candidate has published research" category, as well as the "Candidate participated in a dedicated research experience", which are both 'ranked' higher than MD/PhD. In fact, there is a very good chance that your performance in these two areas will far surpass any other applicant they have seen that year, and if you are up to snuff, you may have a better research profile than any other applicant they have ever seen.

In addition, I propose the following as a possible explanation as to why the MD/PhD ranking is so low: There are very few MSTP applicants who apply ortho. In an interview of all MSTP graduates from 1964-1994, only 12 have entered orthopaedics (similar numbers to other surgical subspecialties except Nsurg) [Clark, Hanel, Journal of Orthopaedic Research 19 (2001) 505-510]. Assuming a dismal 50% match rate, that would have put less than one in the selection process per year. Assuming 10-15 interviews, less than 10% of the 100 or so orthopaedic residency PDs would have seen an MD/PhD apply each year. I know the data is 10 years old, but the paper I cite was published in 2001, and says that the rate is not increasing.

I am a student at a school with a very strong academic ortho department, and the discussions I have personally had with the director and other faculty make me believe that a directed PhD would be "prized" much more so than Bernstein conveys.

 

[RxnMan]

I also feel that it is useful for a surgeon to have a PhD or other advanced research training. I posted the link to show that it isn't the thing that sells you to that residency selection board - you have to be a total package. You have to have the numbers to "match" the PhD.

(Ortho stats start on pg. 37)