Surgeons and eye contact...

[Frazier]

Kind of a lighthearted thread and disclaimer: very limited sample to ~10 surgeons.

It seem like only 3-4 that I've interacted with are normal about making eye contact during a conversation. I haven't noticed this with other physicians over the past 3 years...maybe it is because I can see their eyes better since rounding groups are smaller and we're in closer proximity (inherent to being around the operating table/tiny clinic/tiny lounge/etc.)

I'll be speaking to an attending and their eyes will be all over the place: blank wall, ceiling, my chin, the guy's shirt next to me, my forehead, a monitor, my shoulder, empty hallway, my other shoulder, etc.

Subject matter doesn't seem to matter, or who is doing the talking. I'll be presenting, they'll be pimping (whether correct or incorrect answers by me), asking questions, we'll be talking about the weekend, talking about cars, etc. Very little eye contact.

IM docs/Pulm docs/Neuro docs/rheum docs/ heme-onc docs/nurses/PA's/social workers/techs/cafeteria workers, on the other hand, stared me down right in the ol' pupils (at least to the degree that I never even thought about it).

Like I said, sample size is super small.

SDN larger community, have you ever come across this, is there a larger trend?

Edit: the eye contact thing isn't to to say "socially awkward" or anything like that. Some of the folks in my mind are super well-liked in the hospital and pleasant. They just do this random eyes thing.

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[NontradCA]

That body language is usually stemming from forced conversations. Its generally a sign of lack of respect. Have you ever considered that you may just be sub-human, and not deserving of it?

 

[Frazier]

Its generally a sign of lack of respect, and that body language is usually stemming from forced conversations. Have you ever considered that you may just be sub-human, and not deserving of it?

Sure, that may be it. But I would think the disrespect angle more like: while I'm talking you walk away, stare at your phone, start talking to someone else walking by. If you are going to expend the energy to throw your eyes all over and look at my chin as you speak, why not look me in the eyes? It would spare me from wondering "why doesn't this person look people in the eyes?" and "is there something on my chin? Oh wait I have a surgical mask on, so they wouldn't know anyway. Hmmm.") I never really thought of it as some overt sign of respect, rather just a natural means of communication.

The subhuman thing is funny though, if all these guys were dinguses, I would consider that theory more heavily.

Regarding forced conversation, maybe but there doesn't seem to be much forced convo going on. A round is a round. A pimp question at the table is a pimp question. When they are telling me about their Vaca it's by their own volition.

Like I noted in my edit, majority seem to be pretty cool, normal ladies/gents.

 

[doc05]

are you talking in the OR?? In that case, it's usually a bad idea to turn away from the patient just for the sake of conversation..

 

[Frazier]

are you talking in the OR?? In that case, it's usually a bad idea to turn away from the patient just for the sake of conversation..

Anesthesia starting their thing at head of table, I stand on one side chest level and attending on other. We are facing each other. No need to turn away in this case, I'm not behind the attending or anything lol.

Not always OR btw...hallways, lounge, clinics, small group lectures, conferences, feedback sessions. A lot of venues for communication outside the acuity of OR.

 

[TraumaLlamaMD]

The surgeon has a lot to pay attention to during a case other than you. Aside from the patient/surgery at hand, he is likely keeping one eye on induction to confirm everything is going well, another eye on the vitals, a third eye on the scrub tech's table to see if she has that particular stapler he wants, a fourth on the door to see if the circulator is back yet so he can ask for something else, a fifth on the clock so he can mentally estimate if he'll be able to start the next case on time... The ability to pay attention to all this and still make coherent small talk is something that takes time to develop. Don't take it personally; it's not about you.

 

[Frazier]

The surgeon has a lot to pay attention to during a case other than you. Aside from the patient/surgery at hand, he is likely keeping one eye on induction to confirm everything is going well, another eye on the vitals, a third eye on the scrub tech's table to see if she has that particular stapler he wants, a fourth on the door to see if the circulator is back yet so he can ask for something else, a fifth on the clock so he can mentally estimate if he'll be able to start the next case on time... The ability to pay attention to all this and still make coherent small talk is something that takes time to develop. Don't take it personally; it's not about you.

Very true, they are very busy folk. Impressive pacing and stamina for long days/nights to say the least.

 

[Etorphine]

But I would think the disrespect angle more like: while I'm talking you walk away, stare at your phone, start talking to someone else walking by. If you are going to expend the energy to throw your eyes all over and look at my chin as you speak, why not look me in the eyes?

perhaps in their mind, there is no difference between you and the fly buzzing on the wall

 

[Frazier]

perhaps in their mind, there is no difference between you and the fly buzzing on the wall

Maybe. It's really of no consequence.
My curiosity was there, but minimal...Just about enough to make a SDN thread/respond.

Good to know SDN consensus though, that when consulting/working with surgeons down the road, "when a surgeon is talking directly with you -- but looking at your chin/eyebrows/tie instead of your eyes -- it is a blatant sign of disrespect in their culture". Haha, learn something new every day. 😀 Thanks for the replies.

 

[Winged Scapula]

The surgeon has a lot to pay attention to during a case other than you. Aside from the patient/surgery at hand, he is likely keeping one eye on induction to confirm everything is going well, another eye on the vitals, a third eye on the scrub tech's table to see if she has that particular stapler he wants, a fourth on the door to see if the circulator is back yet so he can ask for something else, a fifth on the clock so he can mentally estimate if he'll be able to start the next case on time... The ability to pay attention to all this and still make coherent small talk is something that takes time to develop. Don't take it personally; it's not about you.

Yep this.

It used to amaze me that I can operate, watch the vitals, converse with anesthesia, monitor where the scrub nurse has put my favorite needle driver, sing along with the classic rock on the Pandora and hear my phone ring and the circulator, SITTING RIGHT NEXT TO MY PHONE, claims they didn't realize my phone was ringing.

When I have a student in my office, I'm often talking with them about a patient but not looking at them because I'm looking at my EMR calendar, seeing who's checked in, what time it is and thinking about whether or not I really should buy that Maserati or not.

Its not you. Or maybe it is. Perhaps your visage is particularly unappealing. Surgeons like good looking people.

 

[slopes23]

Maybe. It's really of no consequence.
My curiosity was there, but minimal...Just about enough to make a SDN thread/respond.

Good to know SDN consensus though, that when consulting/working with surgeons down the road, "when a surgeon is talking directly with you -- but looking at your chin/eyebrows/tie instead of your eyes -- it is a blatant sign of disrespect in their culture". Haha, learn something new every day. 😀 Thanks for the replies.

I read through the whole thread as fast as could to make sure no one else called you on this yet. But how do you distinguish someone looking at your forehead, eyebrows, or chin vs them looking you in the eye?

 

[tick_tock400]

Physicians are known for having an EXTREMELY short listening span. I think the average PCP listens for 12 seconds before zoning out or something (I read that somewhere recently and have seen that in a few different articles- but I don't remember exactly where I saw that). But anywhoos I don't think you should take it personally at all. One of my family member's is a primary care physician (PCP) and has a HORRID attention span, her eyes go up and down and at walls within 10 seconds of a conversation with her own family members, friends, people she hasn't seen in a long time-- she really can't help it whatsoever.

 

[mestielest]

The pathway to surgery leads a physician to "it is that-so you will do this" type of approach. While someone talks to the surgeon; he/she usually only wants to know "the result" and then he/she will decide "what to do". And while he/she decides "what to do"; he/she also has to check so many damn things in OR and perform a satisfactory procedure. A side effect of this hard pathway is loosing common eye contact in daily conversations. And an another possible reason is maybe the surgeon is just tired or don't liked the one who is talking with him/her. At least in my opinion 🙂

 

[W19]

Many (if not most) surgeons lack social skills. It seems like surgical specialties attract some weird individuals. 😛

 

[Winged Scapula]

Many (if not most) surgeons lack social skills. It seems like surgical specialties attract some weird individuals. 😛

#notallsurgeons

As a matter of fact I would say there are more "weird "personalities in other specialties; not liking a surgeons personality is different than it being antisocial or weird.

 

[kilpty]

I have had the opposite experience. Where they stare at you so long unblinkingly that you feel like its a contest (also small sample pool though, maybe its just the region). Luckily I have practice because I have cats.

 

[W19]

#notallsurgeons

As a matter of fact I would say there are more "weird "personalities in other specialties; not liking a surgeons personality is different than it being antisocial or weird.

Of course you would say that since you are a surgeon... Ask other hospital employees such as nurses who interact with different type of physicians on regular basis, you see the kind of answer you gonna get...

 

[wjs010]

Everybody always likes to say "oh yea, this specialty attracts some weird individuals! " and then someone else says the same thing about another specialty. Here's probably the reason: either they are thinking about a case, or they are weird/slightly awkward/ beta folks. Enjoy

 

[Winged Scapula]

Of course you would say that since you are a surgeon... Ask other hospital employees such as nurses who interact with different type of physicians on regular basis, you see the kind of answer you gonna get...

I'm not going to argue with you because clearly you had a different experience but I'll tell you I've been a "normal" person a lot longer than I've been a surgeon and I've interacted with a great number of people from both within and without the medical community and I stand by my statement above.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

#notallsurgeons

As a matter of fact I would say there are more "weird "personalities in other specialties; not liking a surgeons personality is different than it being antisocial or weird.

As one of those other specialists, I would agree with this completely. Surgeons are a very direct bunch. It today's world that makes many people uncomfortable and so they assume the problem must be with the surgeon.

I find it somewhat refreshing, honestly.

 

[Winged Scapula]

As one of those other specialists, I would agree with this completely. Surgeons are a very direct bunch. It today's world that makes many people uncomfortable and so they assume the problem must be with the surgeon.

I find it somewhat refreshing, honestly.

Yep.

One can be direct without being cruel. It seems that being honest or getting to the point has become equated with rude, uncaring or having poor social skills.

Asking nurses who they find are the nicest will be defined as who brings them doughnuts during Nurses Week.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Yep.

One can be direct without being cruel. It seems that being honest or getting to the point has become equated with rude, uncaring or having poor social skills.

Asking nurses who they find are the nicest will be defined as who brings them doughnuts during Nurses Week.

Or who always acquiesce to their "suggestions".

Plus, we all know surgeons have good social skills. You can't have 3 ex-wives without being good in social situations...

 

[Winged Scapula]

Or who always acquiesce to their "suggestions".

Plus, we all know surgeons have good social skills. You can't have 3 ex-wives without being good in social situations...

 

[jw3600]

Many (if not most) surgeons lack social skills. It seems like surgical specialties attract some weird individuals. 😛

Of all the posters commenting on lack of social skills...

 

[NontradCA]

#notallsurgeons

As a matter of fact I would say there are more "weird "personalities in other specialties; not liking a surgeons personality is different than it being antisocial or weird.

I like you 😍

 

[Mad Jack]

Many (if not most) surgeons lack social skills. It seems like surgical specialties attract some weird individuals. 😛

Surgery seems to have the most extreme personalities I've seen. They're no less weird, on average, but the strangest (and often most interesting) physicians I've ever met seem to cluster in surgery (and EM).

 

[pd1112]

ENTs are weird AF in my experience. Then one day I had an EM doc I worked with for a year tell me he thinks I'll go into ENT

 

[styphon]

I feel most fields of medicine promotes this type of behavior. I didn't have the longest attention span before medical school - but after medical school, residency, and a few years of being an attending (family medicine) - my attention span is shot. I can not stand people taking more than 1 minute to tell a story if so I start feeling this sense of anxiety and panic (Oh god I'm already 3 patients behind! and I have this stupid mandatory meeting for lunch!)

 

[masaraksh]

I feel most fields of medicine promotes this type of behavior. I didn't have the longest attention span before medical school - but after medical school, residency, and a few years of being an attending (family medicine) - my attention span is shot. I can not stand people taking more than 1 minute to tell a story if so I start feeling this sense of anxiety and panic (Oh god I'm already 3 patients behind! and I have this stupid mandatory meeting for lunch!)

seems like you need a couple shots of jack before clinic to calm the nerves 😉

I agree though, my attention span sucks. I start zoning out babble immediately. Or maybe I've just gotten good at recognizing when people are saying 'low yield' crap or just repeating things for no reason or rambling and just go on to auto-ignore that.

 

[Psai]

seems like you need a couple shots of jack before clinic to calm the nerves 😉

I agree though, my attention span sucks. I start zoning out babble immediately. Or maybe I've just gotten good at recognizing when people are saying 'low yield' crap or just repeating things for no reason or rambling and just go on to auto-ignore that.

everything is high yield

 

[67552931811]

My pops is a surgeon and he stares me down, lol

Seriously though, every surgeon I've talked to actually makes direct eye-contact when taking to me. Idk, maybe you just have an odd surgery department at your school, op

 

[67552931811]

Surgery seems to have the most extreme personalities I've seen. They're no less weird, on average, but the strangest (and often most interesting) physicians I've ever met seem to cluster in surgery (and EM).

EM personalities are alllllll over the place. Seems to be I've never met the same EM doc twice....

 

[Winged Scapula]

ENTs are weird AF in my experience. Then one day I had an EM doc I worked with for a year tell me he thinks I'll go into ENT

It's only the ones wearing bowties. The rest of the ENT physicians are relatively normal, even for a surgeon.

 

[WinslowPringle]

Outside of the OR, I haven't noticed that most surgeons avoid eye contact when talking to me (med school or grand residency span of about two weeks...). But I can't recall, as a med student, having any convo with an attending surgeon longer than a quick patient presentation. What on earth are you guys talking about?

In the OR, most focus is on the patient and there is very little eye contact. An appropriate level, but I'm definitely not staring into my attending's ol' baby blues for the case...

 

[BruceWilly]

Kind of a lighthearted thread and disclaimer: very limited sample to ~10 surgeons.

It seem like only 3-4 that I've interacted with are normal about making eye contact during a conversation. I haven't noticed this with other physicians over the past 3 years...maybe it is because I can see their eyes better since rounding groups are smaller and we're in closer proximity (inherent to being around the operating table/tiny clinic/tiny lounge/etc.)

I'll be speaking to an attending and their eyes will be all over the place: blank wall, ceiling, my chin, the guy's shirt next to me, my forehead, a monitor, my shoulder, empty hallway, my other shoulder, etc.

Subject matter doesn't seem to matter, or who is doing the talking. I'll be presenting, they'll be pimping (whether correct or incorrect answers by me), asking questions, we'll be talking about the weekend, talking about cars, etc. Very little eye contact.

IM docs/Pulm docs/Neuro docs/rheum docs/ heme-onc docs/nurses/PA's/social workers/techs/cafeteria workers, on the other hand, stared me down right in the ol' pupils (at least to the degree that I never even thought about it).

Like I said, sample size is super small.

SDN larger community, have you ever come across this, is there a larger trend?

Edit: the eye contact thing isn't to to say "socially awkward" or anything like that. Some of the folks in my mind are super well-liked in the hospital and pleasant. They just do this random eyes thing.

Lol, yep. All that. One of my residents read too many leadership books. He tries too hard when it comes to ignoring the lowly minions.