Surgery FAQs

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avgjoe said:
Are there any folks out there who go to a top school, have good stats, were told by their advisors that htey don't need to apply to too many schools (<10) and then didn't match or had a hard time? How much can we really trust such advice?

I'm sure there are, but such data is collated in any central forum, so it would be anecdotal information at this time.

There are also students, who, on their own, decide they don't need to apply to many programs or are so set on ONE program that they "suicide" and only rank it. Happened to a friend of mine. Guess what? He didn't match.

Apply to more programs than you think you'll need to, especially a good range of programs (middle and low tier as well), and use as many sources of "advice" ad you can find.

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Around this time last year, I met with our Chairman, who said to shoot for 13 interviews in order to be pretty comfortable about matching. Although I had good scores and grades, I still applied to 26 places, b/c I certainly didnt want to be unmatched. I agree with Gator, that its better to overapply than underapply - there's way too many variables in this process to be smug and apply to fewer than 10. The extra cost to apply via ERAS to 25-30 versus 15 programs was tolerable, considering it's the next 5-7 yrs of your life on the line (but I cannot speak for the price of applying to 50+!!).

Good luck!
 
SteadyEddy said:
3. The interview...I was myself.

Which of course would have gotten him in just about any place. ;)

I, too, applied to 25. It had been 20, but a friend of my freaked me into adding 5 more, though I'm not sure those 5 ever even got back to me....

My board scores were less than yours, my clinical grades all "Outstanding" except one "advanced" in OB (for some unknown reason), my M1/M2 grades are a mixed bag, but were nothing to help me or my iffy board scores. I had lots of extra curriculars, and evidentally my letters where very good. I did not get to see them, but many people read parts to me. I agree with SteadyEddy, it's evident that your hardwork really will be noticed even if it seems hopeless in those wee hours of the morning.

I was offered 14 interviews, accepted 10, ranked 9. I got 3 actual rejections, leaving 8 programs I never heard from (if I had cared I would have pursued them). I was city matching, which I think maybe helped, or I wouldn't have known where to begin. I wanted Boston. DC was a far 2nd, Philly an even further 3rd. Chicago was on the list because it was home, but I owed it to my husband to get him to a city he liked. I applied to almost every program in those 4 cities from highly academic to small community programs. I saw good things in almost all of them and ranked all but the program I considered leaving in the middle of the interview day.

As an "average", if not below average by numbers, candidate I kept my options open with a broad range of programs and then only turned down the interviews I did after hearing from better programs or ones I knew I liked better. Finally, I continued to keep my options open by ranking 9 programs.
That's my advice to almost everyone. Keep things open. The first step is the number of programs you apply to. Whatever the extra money, who cares (I don't even have any idea the order of magnitude of applying, but I'm certain it's only a drop of my $200K in loans). If you end up with 25 interviews from your 25 programs, then you can knock off a few.

I personally know candidates numerically better than me who were courted by multiple top tier programs and did not match to either of them. Rank, rank, rank. Nothing you're told matters until it's the third Thursday in March, so be flattered, keep your hopes up, but don't cut your ROL short.
 
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I personally know candidates numerically better than me who were courted by multiple top tier programs and did not match to either of them. Rank, rank, rank. Nothing you're told matters until it's the third Thursday in March, so be flattered, keep your hopes up, but don't cut your ROL short.

I'd like to echo this statement, and add an additional thought. As you apply, you'll apply to a broad range of programs. As you hear back, even if you're being invited to the tip top programs on your list, don't let that go to your head and axe the lower tier schools. Just because you're interviewing, doesn't mean you'll be a sure shot. As an example, Brigham & Women typically interviews about 150 people for 7 slots. Not great odds.

If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't be so quick to turn down interviews from the mid-to- lower tier programs on my list. If general surgery remains competitive (and there's no reason to think it won't) matching at a mid-to-lower tier program that you selected is FAR preferable to not matching at all.
 
I would like to second what Vincristine has said. It was interesting to see that we were both very similar and very different at the same time academically. I wouldn't consider Einstein in Philly to be the best program in the East, but I was certainly willing to entertain what they had to offer. We interviewed at this place as well as another...Her method obviously worked as she matched at a Harvard program (You go girl!!! Well deserved). Echoing what was said earlier...here are my stats

Years 1-2:Average
Clinical years:Above average
Step I 226
Step II 242 (no one cares)
LOR's Excellent
Medical School Rep: Top 25%
Match: OSU

Hope this helps.
Vincristine said:
Which of course would have gotten him in just about any place. ;)

I, too, applied to 25. It had been 20, but a friend of my freaked me into adding 5 more, though I'm not sure those 5 ever even got back to me....

My board scores were less than yours, my clinical grades all "Outstanding" except one "advanced" in OB (for some unknown reason), my M1/M2 grades are a mixed bag, but were nothing to help me or my iffy board scores. I had lots of extra curriculars, and evidentally my letters where very good. I did not get to see them, but many people read parts to me. I agree with SteadyEddy, it's evident that your hardwork really will be noticed even if it seems hopeless in those wee hours of the morning.

I was offered 14 interviews, accepted 10, ranked 9. I got 3 actual rejections, leaving 8 programs I never heard from (if I had cared I would have pursued them). I was city matching, which I think maybe helped, or I wouldn't have known where to begin. I wanted Boston. DC was a far 2nd, Philly an even further 3rd. Chicago was on the list because it was home, but I owed it to my husband to get him to a city he liked. I applied to almost every program in those 4 cities from highly academic to small community programs. I saw good things in almost all of them and ranked all but the program I considered leaving in the middle of the interview day.

As an "average", if not below average by numbers, candidate I kept my options open with a broad range of programs and then only turned down the interviews I did after hearing from better programs or ones I knew I liked better. Finally, I continued to keep my options open by ranking 9 programs.
That's my advice to almost everyone. Keep things open. The first step is the number of programs you apply to. Whatever the extra money, who cares (I don't even have any idea the order of magnitude of applying, but I'm certain it's only a drop of my $200K in loans). If you end up with 25 interviews from your 25 programs, then you can knock off a few.

I personally know candidates numerically better than me who were courted by multiple top tier programs and did not match to either of them. Rank, rank, rank. Nothing you're told matters until it's the third Thursday in March, so be flattered, keep your hopes up, but don't cut your ROL short.
 
Hi all
This is a great thread. Very helpful. I'm currently a third-yr med student, and would like to do Gen Surg. Any pearls for the application process? I'd like to do Gen Surg in Southern California. And, directed especially to SteadyEddy, do they care at all about when you take Step 2 or what scores you get on it (as far as residency applications)? I'm planning on taking Step 2 in Feb (after apps/match decisions). Also, would it be okay to have a psyc LOR, and what is the general feeling about externships (helpful/hurtful/useless)? Thanks. Any help would be appreciated.

My stats:
Years 1-2: ave, Clinical yrs: above average, Step 1: 222, LOR: should be good/excellent; Med school rep: it's a small midwest school, middle tier (not the best rep out on the west coast). Any advice would be grand.



SteadyEddy said:
I would like to second what Vincristine has said. It was interesting to see that we were both very similar and very different at the same time academically. I wouldn't consider Einstein in Philly to be the best program in the East, but I was certainly willing to entertain what they had to offer. We interviewed at this place as well as another...Her method obviously worked as she matched at a Harvard program (You go girl!!! Well deserved). Echoing what was said earlier...here are my stats

Years 1-2:Average
Clinical years:Above average
Step I 226
Step II 242 (no one cares)
LOR's Excellent
Medical School Rep: Top 25%
Match: OSU

Hope this helps.
 
1. Do they care about step 2 scores...not really. The feeling is that everyone has the idea that they're looking at step 1 scores. Thus, you should bone up and do well on it. It's just a sign of your will.

2. Taking step 2 after the match will be fine...although if you take it and get the same score that would be fine too.

3. Can I use a psych letter of eval? Well, you can...but it has the same chance of helping you as a SBIH :confused: Surgery is like a fraternity, and they only seem to care how you did in surgery...and maybe medicine. Your LOR's should come from
1. Chair of surgery
2. 2 others that know you well and will write you good letters (SURGEONS OF COURSE)

SHOULDN'T you be contributing to the Surgical Pearls thread. Let's help the younger ones!

drCA said:
Hi all
This is a great thread. Very helpful. I'm currently a third-yr med student, and would like to do Gen Surg. Any pearls for the application process? I'd like to do Gen Surg in Southern California. And, directed especially to SteadyEddy, do they care at all about when you take Step 2 or what scores you get on it (as far as residency applications)? I'm planning on taking Step 2 in Feb (after apps/match decisions). Also, would it be okay to have a psyc LOR, and what is the general feeling about externships (helpful/hurtful/useless)? Thanks. Any help would be appreciated.

My stats:
Years 1-2: ave, Clinical yrs: above average, Step 1: 222, LOR: should be good/excellent; Med school rep: it's a small midwest school, middle tier (not the best rep out on the west coast). Any advice would be grand.
 
To add to what everyone else is saying-- go ahead and overapply when you're just beginning. I applied to 33 programs, got 20 something interviews and interviewed at 17 (way too many--lord have mercy!) ranked 10. Got 1st choice. Basically you want to cast your net very wide at first to see who scoops you up and then go from there.

Also, regarding the letter from psych. Surgeons do seem to want surgery letters. I used 2 surgery letters and one pediatrics letter because I had known the peds attending all 3 years of school and did well in peds and I thought this attending would be able to give a good commentary on me as a student in general, since they'd observed me for 3 years. I actually had comments from interviewers about "why do you have a letter from a pediatrician?" jeez, people think outside the box a little bit here. Of course, they want to see what surgery people think of you, but I think there should be room for other specialties to weigh in too. That said, since psych is viewed by some as being such a different field from surgery, a psych letter probably won't have much mileage for your residency app.
 
SteadyEddy said:
I would like to second what Vincristine has said. It was interesting to see that we were both very similar and very different at the same time academically. I wouldn't consider Einstein in Philly to be the best program in the East, but I was certainly willing to entertain what they had to offer. We interviewed at this place as well as another...Her method obviously worked as she matched at a Harvard program (You go girl!!! Well deserved). Echoing what was said earlier...here are my stats

Agreed with SteadyEddy, Einstein in Philly wasn't exactly what I was looking for, but still, I went, listened to what they had to say, and let them flatter you. I think maybe that's another point. Beyond needing programs you know you can match at for your ROL, it's also nice to have a couple of interviews where people are specifically nice to you work to get you to come to their program. It helps on the long, bumpy trail.

As to how I matched a Harvard program: I did a sub-i there, they met me and evidentally liked me. I'm not sure if made this point strongly enough before, I was able to match at a place I probably would have not even gotten an interview at because THEY KNEW ME. There are different schools of thought on aways. I was confident enough in myself that I did my sub-I's places I was honestly interested in....well, okay, at the end of M3 I didn't know WHAT I was interested in, but still. You can follow the "don't go to your first choice program in case you mess-up" school, but I see that having more backfire potential.

As for psych LOR, unless it says you can walk on water and you can back that up, I don't know why you would. The only thing I might consider using other than a surgeon's letter is a medicine letter. But again, these letters better be damn good to make you even consider using one of them over an average surgery LOR.
 
Once again she's right on the money. Believe it or not folks...you're gonna go places where you aren't #1 on their list. They will treat you they are doing someone a favor to interview you. It helps to have these situations balanced by the occasion..."so what can we do to bring you here?" or "you should let programs know by writing that you are interested in them" Getting pimped about vent settings wasn't exactly my cup of tea at Temple! BTW Vincristine...you'll have to let us know what it's like to train at a Harvard Program. I'm so in awe of you :oops:
Vincristine said:
Agreed with SteadyEddy, Einstein in Philly wasn't exactly what I was looking for, but still, I went, listened to what they had to say, and let them flatter you. I think maybe that's another point. Beyond needing programs you know you can match at for your ROL, it's also nice to have a couple of interviews where people are specifically nice to you work to get you to come to their program. It helps on the long, bumpy trail.

As to how I matched a Harvard program: I did a sub-i there, they met me and evidentally liked me. I'm not sure if made this point strongly enough before, I was able to match at a place I probably would have not even gotten an interview at because THEY KNEW ME. There are different schools of thought on aways. I was confident enough in myself that I did my sub-I's places I was honestly interested in....well, okay, at the end of M3 I didn't know WHAT I was interested in, but still. You can follow the "don't go to your first choice program in case you mess-up" school, but I see that having more backfire potential.

As for psych LOR, unless it says you can walk on water and you can back that up, I don't know why you would. The only thing I might consider using other than a surgeon's letter is a medicine letter. But again, these letters better be damn good to make you even consider using one of them over an average surgery LOR.
 
I'll tell u what... equally as important as the number of applications is the time of application. Regardless of what anyone tells u applying early really does matter at least for 80% of the spots out there. There were places that kept me on their waiting list only to call me in late in febuary. See, many program only interview a set number of applicant regardless of the pool. You will only help yourself if u send of your application ahead of time--even before you have your transcript or deans letter.
 
Coxiella has a point. I'm not sure if we've mentioned this, but I would ready to apply as soon as possible, the timing of this escapes me, so you'll have to double check ERAS. If this is seemingly impossible, then I would CERTAINLY get it submitted within the first 2-4 weeks you can certify. (No, I did not certify on the first day possible.)

This is long before dean's letters come out in November. I think I only got 2 more interviews after the dean's letters were sent.
 
I thought this thread was useful for some good perspective. :thumbup:
 
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JPHazelton said:
Most surgery programs that I see accept several students into the PGY1 year and then as the years progress, there are fewer people in the program. Where do these people go if they are not one of those who move into the following year of their program? How does this work? Are they bumped for academic reasons? Do they go to PGY2 spots elsewhere? What is the purpose of this sort of pyramid trend throughout the 5 year residency?

Sorry for the ignorance, just curious.

Much appreciated.

There are 3 categories of residents in a general surgical residency:

Categorical: resident hired presumed to complete the entire 5+ year residency (NB: each resident is only given a year to year contract, so a Categorical position is not a guarantee of finishing)

Designated Preliminary: resident who needs to do 1 to 2 years of Preliminary Surgery before going on to his/her "designated" subspecialty, like ENT, Ortho, etc.

Non-Designated Preliminary: usually a resident who wants a Categorical position but was unable to obtain one; usually hired for 1 year. May be offered a Categorical position the next year if they do well and one opens up.
These may also be people who do a Prelim Surgical year if they have the option (ie, Anesthesiology, Derm)....we typically don't have any of these, for obvious reasons.

For example, at Hershey we typically have anywhere from 20-22 PGY-1 interns:

4 Categorical General Surgery
1 Plastics
1 Neurosurgery
2 (or 3) Orthopaedics
2 (or 3) ENT
2 Urology
8 Non-designated Preliminaries

Some of the non-designated Prelims will stay on; some as a Prelim PGY2, others as a Categorical (dependent on attrition obviously; some will redo their intern year [rare]). Most will find positions at other programs; hopefully Categorical ones.

There really aren't true pyramidal programs any more. Remember residents will leave programs, go into the lab, and the numbers will vary from year to year. The RRC and ACGME frowns on Pyramidal programs. Rumor has it that some Military residencies still have them, but are phasing them out as well. There are residents who are fired - for academic or other reasons, why repeat years or simply leave the program (sometimes for other programs, usually for personal reasons).
 
Kimberli Cox said:
There are also students, who, on their own, decide they don't need to apply to many programs or are so set on ONE program that they "suicide" and only rank it. Happened to a friend of mine. Guess what? He didn't match.


A guy at our program was assured he had a spot, and only ranked this program because he wanted to train here where his wife also works.
In the weeks before the rank lists were submitted there was some controversy that involved him, and in the end - he was unmatched. He probably should have interviewed at even two more programs in the area, just in the 'off chance' that he didnt match at his number one.
It happens.
 
This is a GREAT thread! Thanks for all of your pearls and let's keep it going!

:thumbup:
 
not to be a tool, but how do you guys feel about working for 5-9 years at 40-60k/yr? i don't exactly live a lavish lifestyle but i would like to spend money relatively freely on my family and buy my parents some nice gifts once in a while, like send them on trips overseas. i'm not going to say anything ridiculous like saying someone on 60k/yr can't live comfortably, but isn't there something to be said for 30+ year old professionals being able to treat himself once in a while on something more than an entry level businessman's salary?
 
3rd year med student here. I'm rotating through surgery right now, was chatting with the chief about residencies in general surgery. She stated that they'll probably be 6 years by the time that I apply next year. I searched facs.org and google.com for info on that and found none. Her rationalization had something to do with:

100 hours / wk 6 year rotation
----------------------- =~ -------------------
80 hours / wk 5 year rotation

That is, she stated that one simply couldn't learn as much now with the shorter hour restrictions. Any thoughts?
 
This thread has been great folks, thanks for all the sagely advice.

I'm still at a bit of a loss, however, as I'm going through and applying to gen surg residencies. Is it best to check both prelim and categorical, if you're really interested in a certain program? And if you do, when you interview are interviewing for both spots? Should you throw caution to the wind and just apply for a categorical spot?

so confused and desperate for some quick help. Thanks in advance...
 
locitamd said:
Is it best to check both prelim and categorical, if you're really interested in a certain program? And if you do, when you interview are interviewing for both spots? Should you throw caution to the wind and just apply for a categorical spot?

so confused and desperate for some quick help. Thanks in advance...

If you are from a U.S. medical school, a moderately good candidate, and want to do general surgery, then you should NOT apply to prelim spots. Only apply for categorical. If you feel like you would be willing to take a prelim spot and then apply again for categorical (which would likely mean doing intern year twice), you can get a prelim spot during the scramble (that is, AFTER you have not matched at any categorical spots).
 
robotsonic said:
If you are from a U.S. medical school, a moderately good candidate, and want to do general surgery, then you should NOT apply to prelim spots. Only apply for categorical. If you feel like you would be willing to take a prelim spot and then apply again for categorical (which would likely mean doing intern year twice), you can get a prelim spot during the scramble (that is, AFTER you have not matched at any categorical spots).

What if you were set on getting a spot at one or two particular locations? To secure that spot could u apply to a prelim spot early?
 
myself:

categorical pgy-2 surgery resident in major nyc university hospital (see it all the time on those "where did you get your interview threads" :)
applied to about 25 programs. did about 20 interviews, ranked about 15 of those 20. matched at choice #3 and pretty happy about it (actually glad i didn't go to 1 or 2, much preferred 3 or 4 in retrospect).

suggestions for current ms4 applications

1) go to as many interviews as you can, you never know that some program you weren't too interested in might be great
2) relax in interviews, they are not as stressful as med school (one exception-mgh, ugh)
3) send thank you notes to all interviewers; if you are really interested in school, send one as well to pd
4) act professional... sell yourself. unlike med school, residency is much less about grades and numbers as it is personality. no attending wants a jerk with step scores really high. remember, as you advance in your residency, you will be operating with attg's, calling them at 3am about patients... they want someone who they could have a beer with after a case, not some science nerd.
5) get to interviews early so you know where to go.. one place i went the pd threw out a guy who was 10 minutes late... surgeons are precise and on time
6) research the school. saying "i want to be in boston because its nice" isn't the greatest answer. find an attending there who you might work with and mention their name in the interview.
7) DO NOT belittle other programs at your interview. no matter what. it is really bad form and almost an instant downgrade. some attendings might try and get you to but dont

post-interviews: only rank programs that you would want to go to.. ask yourself, would i rather go unmatched or go to program A... if the former is true, don't rank program A. i have never seen anyone go below rank list of 10 on their match day.. so if you have more than 10, this point is irrelevant.

getting tired of writing.
i will answer any questions you guys have, intern year, research, fellowships.
etc
good luck
 
:luck: :luck:
I have 2 questions, thus far....Anyone out there applying to the Canadian Match as well as the NRMP? I would appreciate any input on the New Hampshire program at Dartmouth. Scutwork did not have any posted reviews.
Thanks!
 
So one issue that really hasn't been touched yet is the "reputation factor". It seams that you all agree that Step1, year 3/4 performance, and LORs are crucial..... but does the reputation of the school I'm coming from really have a significant impact on where I will match? Pending good grades, scores, LORs, etc, should I take my school's reputation into heavy account?

Here's the deal.
I'm about to start my first year of medical school. I'm having a terrible time trying to decide which school to atttend. Would you all recommend COST or REPUTATION to be the final tie breaker?
 
Ach. The chronic dilemma. I had it too, ended up going to a school with less of a name (ironically, tho', equally as expensive) only because I thought (and was right) that I would be happier there. I don't think it has hurt me in the least for medical school interviews; they care more about numbers and LORs, and since the surgical world is small, almost every place I interviewed knew my chair or other attendings who wrote my LOR. Also, my $250K is pretty depressing. As long as the other school (cheaper) is good quality and certified and not at risk of going under, I think you won't lose anything come application time. In fact, you could be a bigger fish in a smaller pond academically and shine.
 
happy puppet said:
Ach. The chronic dilemma. I had it too, ended up going to a school with less of a name (ironically, tho', equally as expensive) only because I thought (and was right) that I would be happier there. I don't think it has hurt me in the least for medical school interviews; they care more about numbers and LORs, and since the surgical world is small, almost every place I interviewed knew my chair or other attendings who wrote my LOR. Also, my $250K is pretty depressing. As long as the other school (cheaper) is good quality and certified and not at risk of going under, I think you won't lose anything come application time. In fact, you could be a bigger fish in a smaller pond academically and shine.

That's kind of what I was thinking. I'm trying to decide between Jefferson and SUNY-Upstate (Syracuse). I think Jeff has a better name in the surgical world, but SUNY is so much cheaper. I think I would probobly be just as happy either place though. Students and Faculty at both institutions were overly polite/helpful and seamed to be commited to their respective schools. SUNY definately has a smaller class size though. It is somewhere in the neighborhood of 150, compared to Jefferson's 250.

Any thoughts from anyone else? I know it was slightly off topic from what this forum was discussing, but you guys would know how to answer this dilema better than anyone else. Feel free to PM me.
 
Keep it coming!
 
aboo-ali-sina said:
the ERAS post office opens on the first couple of days in september but you can start working on your application about 1 month before that. You should have it ready and submitt your application on the first day the post office opens up. That way when the programs go to download their first batch of applications you will be in that set. Earlier is always better because as the application period goes on, not only will they be getting more applications but also they will be running out of interview spots so they will be tougher and tougher to get.

That was my experience anyway.

Good luck!
Hi all,
This sounds like a great piece of advice. One question though, and I don't know much about the ERAS program as an M3- I am hoping to bolster my application with my step 2 score. Should I still submit early before I get step 2 scores back? Or should I wait and then submit?
Thanks for everyone's great input!
 
supasonic said:
Hi all,
This sounds like a great piece of advice. One question though, and I don't know much about the ERAS program as an M3- I am hoping to bolster my application with my step 2 score. Should I still submit early before I get step 2 scores back? Or should I wait and then submit?
Thanks for everyone's great input!

Hi there,
ERAS is very, very different from medical school application. You do not want to wait to submit ERAS. Get your stuff together and get that application loaded as soon as possible. If you wait, some places fill up their entire interview schedule early and you will be left out.

If your Step I score is less than a wow, apply to a broad range of programs but apply early. Then you can concentrate on your Step II score which will then only help you. Step II is not that much of a boose even if your score goes off the scale, to delay your application.

Make sure that you have at least 15 solid interviews. With only one categorical general surgery slot left after the match, you do not want to be scrambling. If you do not have at least 15 interview invitations, then apply to more programs but apply widely and apply early.

njbmd :)
 
I'm hearing a lot of different opinions on this from various residents and attendings, so I need to get this cleared up. Can the programs see the entire list of places you're applying to, or can they only see your ranked list? The deal is that if I'm applying to categorical academic and community, my advisor thinks that I'd be seen as "indecisive or unsure of what I want to do," whereas if I applied to categorical and prelim academic, I'd look like I really really want to go to a specific program.

Any thoughts?
 
My trauma/critical care attending and I were talking a couple of weeks ago, and he told me that around 40% of all the general surgeons currently working in the US were age 55 or greater.

I replied, "Great! That means there will be plenty for me to do when I get done." (typical 3rd year ass kissing response)

He just looked at me and said, "Careful what you wish for. You guys are gonna have it pretty rough."

I sat there like an idiot.

Which, I guess, means that those worrying that general surgery will die out can sleep a little easier.
 
I'm curious about jobs. How does a surgeon get started? I know very little about the true nature of the job market for surgeons. My knowledge is limited to vague things like, you can "join a practice". What does this entail, usually? What is your income, your malpractice? Your "schedule"? I'd love some examples. I guess I'm talking about a General Surgeon, non-fellowship trained. Can you be hired by a hospital? Would you make less or more? And just what is involved with starting your own practice? Would you be part of a group first and then spin off on your own? Would your group contract prohibit this?

I have all these questions because as I start residency, a lot of people ask, "So what do you want to do when you're done?" And honestly, I have no answer. I don't know what type of scenario would fit me best. I'd absolutely love it if someone could enlighten me. I know there's not a huge population of working surgeons on here, it's mostly residents and students, but maybe you could tell me what you know?

Thanks!!:)

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=338108&highlight=surgeon+jobs I just found this....somewhat helpful but I'd still like to hear some stories.
 
hey everyone, i'm an ms-3 and interested in surgery.....for the residents/interns: what were your boards scores (step 1 usmle and/or comlex), ie, average, within # of SD's...etc. THANKS!! :thumbup: :)
 
hey everyone, i'm an ms-3 and interested in surgery.....for the residents/interns: what were your boards scores (step 1 usmle and/or comlex), ie, average, within # of SD's...etc. THANKS!! :thumbup: :)

While it's not impossible to get a GS residency with below-average scores, average to above average is preferred. If you failed you'll have a tougher time. It's not the end-all criteria; if you demonstrate dedication and workhorse abilities (especially at a DO residency), you will stand out regardless of scores. I think at MD residencies, they may ultimately line you up based on boards scores. I have some experience with all of this, so if you want more details, PM me.
 
I didn't know where else to put this, so I thought the FAQs might be a good place.

1) What are "index case/procedure" requirements? As far as I can tell, they are the case types you need to be board eligible. But aren't most cases (aside from really minor ones) going to contribute?

2) Why are they called "index" cases?

3) Where might you find a list of index case requirements for general surgery?

Thanks,
Soapbox123
 
I didn't know where else to put this, so I thought the FAQs might be a good place.


This is actually not the best place to put it, as I fear most people don't check the FAQs unless they are looking for advice. However, I cannot move your query to the main forums, so will answer your questions here.

1) What are "index case/procedure" requirements? As far as I can tell, they are the case types you need to be board eligible. But aren't most cases (aside from really minor ones) going to contribute?

Sadly, you will find that MOST cases you do, even as a mid-level resident do NOT count toward your totals. For example, none of the lines, trachs or PEGs will count, nor will amputations on vascular, excisional biopsies or lumpectomies of the breast, appendectomies, hernias, etc. don't count.

You need the minimum number of cases to graduate from your program and be considered board eligible. The following link gives you the minimum number and the types of cases that "count":

http://www.acgme.org/acWebsite/downloads/oplog/440CatMin.pdf

2) Why are they called "index" cases?

I dunno as it doesn't seem to be related to the typical meaning in medicine (ie, the first patient described in an epidemic). But it basically means major cases which "count" toward the minimums. Its also a heavy metal band from Iowa.

3) Where might you find a list of index case requirements for general surgery?

See above. :D
 
Here is a compilation of responses to questions I have seen in this thread-

I second-or third-or fourth- those who have said that letters only matter if they are from surgeons. Another letter froma research mentor (like I had) after 3 surgeon letters might pad it, but I know that no one read it!

If you have non-medicine parents- bring it up! The interviewers were very interested in my non-medical family.

Reputation is more important than cost of school. Names are sooo much more important than they should be. But, keep in mind, that a "small" name school might have the right name to get you where you wnat, and a "big" name school could overshoot you for some programs- I was actually asked if a certain program would "be enough" for me.

To the MS who wants southern california- I believe there are 9+ programs there. I applied to 7, got interviews at 5- but not at my 2 backup schools! Why? My application was branded "hard core academic" and the palces that nixed me were straight up posh private places (that is my belief at least.) If you really want southern cali, more than academic vs private, write two personal statements- one for the acadmeic programs, one for the private/community. You can label them in ERAS "academic" and "private" and no one will ever see the titles or know that they got a different one then their neighbor school, unless they call each other and read them over the phone!

And the programs cannot see a list of where you applied and are interviewing-but on EVERY single interview I was asked. Usually I dodged by saying "all over the country, mostly academic, but community too- places with strong reputation for excellence in surgery and patient care" or something like that...however, at one high-end place the interview said "no, which programs exactly." Ouch.

keep the questions coming- you don't want to freak out or obsess early, but "the more you know" early, the easier it will be when applications come in- at the same time as sub-is- when you are freaking out about defining the rest of your life. :) (if you are a premed, I believ that it isn't too early to get info, just don't cement yourself into any path- stay a "stem cell" as long as possible!)

And remember to smile! Charimen like people who smile- they seem nie and happy, and nice and happy people are easy to work with!!

msl
 
Maybe we could compile a glossary of terms used in the OR but no one ever bothers to teach you, and are hard to find in books. For example, I've gotten yelled at for doing stuff like "past pointing" when I don't even know what that word means (not very helpful criticism).
I'll start the list:

1. Past pointing
2. Skyving (as in skyving the tissue)
3. Bevelling (as in beveling the blade)

I'm sure there are many other words but they aren't coming to mind right now. Yawn, post call. :confused:
 
Past pointing is when the tip of the bovie is deeper than the tissue layer it is used to divide. If you don't know what is back there, you can injure things unknowingly (we have an attending who skillfully demonstrates this move...:( ).

Scything is what happens when you bevel the blade. A blade that is not at a 90 degree angle to the tissue it is cutting will create a thin layer of tissue and a thick one... with the thin one at risk of necrosis.

I got yelled at as an intern for not knowing that "flash" and "off" with the clamp are not the same thing. Flash is a slow, incomplete release of the tissue and reclamp so the knot can sit better. Off is actually removing the clamp.
 
Hello all, thanks for all the great posts. My question deals with the timing of away rotations - I've been hearing a mixed bag from residents and MS4s...some say to do away rotation late as possible (Nov/Dec) so that the program will remember you, while others have told me that ASAP is better so that you can get LOR into your application fast. Any suggestions??

Also - what resources did everyone use to research the programs they ultimately applied to? I will meet with my chairman/PD but I'd like to go to them with a list at least...

Thanks!:confused:
 
So,

I'm just interested in to how much if at all Step II will help me with my career in General Surgery. I'm interested more towards Academic programs.

Year 1-2, Average
Step I: 226/92
Year 3: incomplete but Honors in Surgery, OB/Gyn, pending Medicine (clinical portion honors), HP in the others. Family and Orthopaedics pending
Year 4: This is the dilemma. Start in May so we have 5 blocks that go on the transcript. I have a SICU, Sub-I in Surgery for sure and 1 month to work on my 2nd research project. Should I then focus and do well on Step II or add other Sub-I's to bolster my transcript before tackling Step II? I appreciate any/all advice. I'm planning on 1-2 Away rotations at institutions TBD, considering UNM, Southwestern, Mayo, U-Minnesota, Oregon.

Thanks,

J
 
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