Surgery Rant/Advice

[Kaustikos]

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I'm getting more and more fed up with this surgical clerkship.

Why? Because the entire premise behind this clerkship - getting good evals/LOR/shelf exam is being ****ed over by these mandatory classes/PBL/discussions/etc. I have NEVER felt more annoyed/angered by the idea that being the OR/Rounds is the LAST priority during this clerkship. I don't know how to bring this up to the people here because I just want to tell them that I don't get ANY benefit from the classes/discussions and seriously need to focus on rounds/OR.

How do I know this? The residents/interns are noticing it and started asking about it. Asking "Do you guys even do any procedures?" I agree completely. Considering I'm liking surgery, I would like to be in the OR more/do rounds so that I get good evaluations. Being in class/discussion does NOT benefit me AT ALL for this clerkship. I'm angered. These things RUIN my day. Partly because I get no benefit discussing things I already know instead of self-studying the material. But because I take 1-2 hours to get this done in the most INCONVENIENT times ever. I have these things at like 8 in the am... THAT'S WHEN THEY DO SURGERIES.

I'm getting fed up. How do I approach this? I do NOT want to go to these things anymore. I hate them. I don't get benefits from it. I'm getting screwed over by this.

 

[ruralsurg4now]

Sounds like your father didn't contribute much to you.

 

[evilbooyaa]

That sucks. There should be enough surgeries that if you go to lecture at 8AM, you should still be able to make any of the 10/11AM cases or later ones. We routinely had lectures in the afternoon, and we just told our residents at morning rounds, and if a long-case dragged into lecture time (unless it was super interesting) most of us just told the attending we had lecture and were told "OK, go scrub out".

However, most of the lectures we had were given by attendings on other services, and thus were pretty good sources of information for the shelf exam. I couldn't stand wasting my time with PBL all the time as a 3rd year. I would bring it up to your clerkship director. It might not help you out, but hopefully it will make them think about changing it for future students.

 

[Stellar Clouds]

Like evilbooyaa said, talk to the clerkship director. It is unlikely that anything will be changed for you, but future students could benefit.

If your lectures are at 8 am, who the heck is giving them to you? We had lectures in the afternoon and still had real problems getting the surgeons to show up to lecture.

 

[KnuxNole]

The clerkship director should be aware that lectures should happen at the "quietest" time that don't interfere with the important things(clinical stuff). I don't know what they were smoking when they gave you lectures that cut you out of OR time and roundings. In almost all of my med school rotations, the lectures were in the afternoon, that was at the end of the day when the doctors were not as busy. Even then, some of those would be cancelled, which is understandable since a crashing patient is more of a priority haha.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

So first of all... You're not getting "screwed over" by lectures/etc in terms of your evals. Every resident and attending is well used to the students having to disappear all the time. We don't care.

Second of all...agree to talk to the clerkship director...but in a more calm fashion than the rant here. Usually there are opportunities for feedback toward the end of the rotation. Nothing is likely to change in the short term, but if this is a widespread frustration than you should make sure the clerkship director is aware.

Unfortunately at a lot of schools this has been the trend. More lecture, more simulation, less floor and patient responsibility, less time in the OR.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

Sounds like your father didn't contribute much to you.

Been trolling like a boss lately. Congrats.

 

[ruralsurg4now]

If you didn't get the reference, read his sig.

 

[alpinism]

Lol wat

You're doing PBL and 8am lectures during your M3 surgery rotation??

 

[Pons Asinorum]

If you didn't get the reference, read his sig.

No sigs on the mobile app...

 

[ruralsurg4now]

It says "I am a product of my father and mother. Patience from my father and stubborn attitude from my mother. And I love it."

 

[Pons Asinorum]

It says "I am a product of my father and mother. Patience from my father and stubborn attitude from my mother. And I love it."

I'm just still mad at you from the Why EM Residency thread 😉

 

[ruralsurg4now]

Somehow I'll live.

 

[JJMrK]

Best solution IMO is to have all lectures for a given week on one day. That way the teams knows that on Fridays the MS3s are gone after 12 (or whatever) and get used to it.

 

[NickNaylor]

Best solution IMO is to have all lectures for a given week on one day. That way the teams knows that on Fridays the MS3s are gone after 12 (or whatever) and get used to it.

This is the setup for my next rotation. Really looking forward to it - it's basically a required day off from the clinical world. Ideally you'll learn something along the way, but even if not I still feel ahead of the game.

 

[JJMrK]

This is the setup for my next rotation. Really looking forward to it - it's basically a required day off from the clinical world. Ideally you'll learn something along the way, but even if not I still feel ahead of the game.

Plus you get to catch up on some sleep. Good all the way around.

 

[Kaustikos]

So first of all... You're not getting "screwed over" by lectures/etc in terms of your evals. Every resident and attending is well used to the students having to disappear all the time. We don't care.

Second of all...agree to talk to the clerkship director...but in a more calm fashion than the rant here. Usually there are opportunities for feedback toward the end of the rotation. Nothing is likely to change in the short term, but if this is a widespread frustration than you should make sure the clerkship director is aware.

Unfortunately at a lot of schools this has been the trend. More lecture, more simulation, less floor and patient responsibility, less time in the OR.

Well,
I turns out I called it. One of the attendings gave me a poor eval for my lack of attendance in the OR. Said I didnt have any interest and was avoidant.

 

[KnuxNole]

Sorry to hear that 🙁

That is lame how they make you do mandatory lectures(what is this..first year?) and cutting you out of the OR...especially if the attendings base their judgment on that. Shouldn't the clinical director know that they take place in the AM? Seems like something I would bring up for future groups.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I would fight a poor evaluation if it was given for lack of OR presence during times when you were required to be in mandatory lecture.

Well,
I turns out I called it. One of the attendings gave me a poor eval for my lack of attendance in the OR. Said I didnt have any interest and was avoidant.

 

[NickNaylor]

Sorry to hear that 🙁

That is lame how they make you do mandatory lectures(what is this..first year?) and cutting you out of the OR...especially if the attendings base their judgment on that. Shouldn't the clinical director know that they take place in the AM? Seems like something I would bring up for future groups.

We get emails if you even show up late to lectures on surgery...

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

 

[ruralsurg4now]

It's sort of irrelevant, though. I mean, throughout medical school, you'll get evaluations that are totally subjective and which random attendings "ding" you on things that are silly. Even personality is subjective. You may be talkative and outgoing and that may irritate your evaluator, or you may be quiet and withdrawn and THAT may irritate your evaluator. You may go to every OR case and just be there and get evaluated as "was not participatory" while another student may go to every case and be all enthusiastic ("can I Bovie that?") and get evaluated as "doesn't know their place." It's why medical school is so screwed up.

 

[ruralsurg4now]

In case that wasn't clear enough, a lot of going to medical school is about accepting the unfairness of medical school. Like, if you complain to your school about this, chances are that you'll look like an oddball because they'll be like "hey, it's one evaluation." It's like how, in first- and second-year, there are invariably people who get 96% on their test and they spend an hour arguing about one question they got wrong and the teacher is like "wtf? Could you unclench your butt cheeks?" We've all seen that. Sure, if you think it was the end of the world, then complain about it and nobody is saying not to. I just don't think you'll run into a lot of sympathy, unfortunately. People know that the evaluations are unfair, but the belief is that OVERALL they even out. Do you understand? And in some ways, that's a mark of maturity to accept it.

 

[KnuxNole]

We get emails if you even show up late to lectures on surgery...

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

Damn, that brings a high school feeling to rotations :O

But, if it was like you said, where they have a day for "education, at least you won't get dinged for not showing up. If that was the case, every med student would get dinged for that, weekly.

Still though, emails for being late. I wouldn't even be able to check my email as I was strolling to lecture to find out lol

 

[Akr]

Yeah agreeing with some above comments, any eval that dings you for something the course required you to do will likely be the same for the other students too. Hopefully they would grade based on some kind of curve in that case, normalizing if not completely excusing those evals because the course directors were the ones that didn't give you the option of being in the ORs at 8am to begin with.
On my clerkship we spent more time in lectures too than I have on any other clerkship so far. At first it didn't make sense to me either but then I realized that the surgical interns at lots of programs don't get first dibs on OR cases anyway. At my school it seemed like they mostly had 1st call for the wards/consults/clinics, and then occasionally got to operate if they were lucky. I can certainly see the value in that... And I might also be biased because our didactics were solid, and also never at 8am on weekdays.
Definitely talk to a course director, maybe even just changing the times of your lectures to free up 8am for OR time would make a huge difference!
Hope things work out, good luck!

 

[Kaustikos]

Look, I normally wouldn't mind this issue if it wasn't for the fact that if I have an interest in Surgery, I need to at least look good to the director when I ask for a LOR/etc. He, unfortunately, looked at this and assumed this was how I am in nature. I'm trying to figure out how to approach this without starting any fires.

I spoke with a coordinator and she told me to let the smoke clear and see how the other evaluations hold up against this one. Given that everyone's enjoyed being with me and told me I'm a good candidate, I feel okay. I just think that if we're going to get evaluated by people, they should say how long they spent time with the person.

I would fight a poor evaluation if it was given for lack of OR presence during times when you were required to be in mandatory lecture.

That's what I mean. The issue isn't against this guy specifically, but to bring up the fact that some attendings don't know anything about how our rotation schedule works. I know I can't be the only one who had this issue. Isolated, maybe, but not something that should go without at least trying to explain myself.


Anywho. The attending for HPB oncology/professor loved me. Said to talk to him if I'm interested in surgery and wanted help. If he meant what he said in my evaluation, then I'm happy.

 

[boogaloo]

Look, I normally wouldn't mind this issue if it wasn't for the fact that if I have an interest in Surgery, I need to at least look good to the director when I ask for a LOR/etc. He, unfortunately, looked at this and assumed this was how I am in nature. I'm trying to figure out how to approach this without starting any fires.

I spoke with a coordinator and she told me to let the smoke clear and see how the other evaluations hold up against this one. Given that everyone's enjoyed being with me and told me I'm a good candidate, I feel okay. I just think that if we're going to get evaluated by people, they should say how long they spent time with the person.



That's what I mean. The issue isn't against this guy specifically, but to bring up the fact that some attendings don't know anything about how our rotation schedule works. I know I can't be the only one who had this issue. Isolated, maybe, but not something that should go without at least trying to explain myself.


Anywho. The attending for HPB oncology/professor loved me. Said to talk to him if I'm interested in surgery and wanted help. If he meant what he said in my evaluation, then I'm happy.

I'm surprised your classmates didn't warn you about the quirks of different attendings. I asked around a lot about the particulars of certain attendings, and they gave us very helpful hints about what each attending prefers, etc. One attending expects us to be dressed in clinical attire at all times except in the OR (this means changing in and out of scrubs every single time). Another one is an egotistical maniac who likes for us to stand on their side during surgery and gets offended if we don't. Things like that... almost all of them expect us to be in the OR if we are not rounding on the floor or in the SICU. We also try to make sure at least one of us is on every case for that day.

 

[Kaustikos]

I'm surprised your classmates didn't warn you about the quirks of different attendings. I asked around a lot about the particulars of certain attendings, and they gave us very helpful hints about what each attending prefers, etc. One attending expects us to be dressed in clinical attire at all times except in the OR (this means changing in and out of scrubs every single time). Another one is an egotistical maniac who likes for us to stand on their side during surgery and gets offended if we don't. Things like that... almost all of them expect us to be in the OR if we are not rounding on the floor or in the SICU. We also try to make sure at least one of us is on every case for that day.

Yeah, I definitely do that (or try to). That's why I got the heads up on the other attending I was with. They told me that she was someone to be careful around... so I did that and ended up getting a great eval. This guy, however, I got nothing from people.
I'll have to deal with it, though. 1 failed eval. Guy doesn't look like he's going to change it. Lesson learned... skip class.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

I deeeefinitely feel where you are coming from. i worked until end of november at a science camp but since them I have been unemployed!! busy with other things...but not nearly as busy as I was during undergrad and then working 60+ hours a week. I'm sure it doesnt look great that I have been unemployed, but I have been helping take care of my sick Grandpa and volunteering weekends here and there doing things I am interested in and trying to scrimp and save so my savings does not run out before I find a new job. I think you get so used to doing things all the time when you are in school and then when you finally have a somewhat 'normal' or slowed down pace of life you feel kind of useless, maybe even bored and find lots of ways to doubt yourself. I just keep my head up and know I am doing what my family needs me to do right now and tell myself this little break has been long overdue....and also...you are doing something constructive...trying to get into medical school!! : )

It's a mark of maturity to accept incorrect grading?

 

[Kaustikos]

Im just letting it go. An uphill battle when I should just save the energy. Just another pitfall.

I cant complain about all these nuances or I'd go crazy. I'd just rather be left alone for studying and let me be in clinic.