Surgical residency and family

[Cory88]

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Hi all,

I am interested in doing a surgical residency but am quite nervous about the work load considering my wife and I want to start a family. Could anyone give me any insight or reflect on some personal experiences being in a residency with a family? Are some residencies more "family friendly" than others?Thanks.
Cory

 

[jmo1012]

I don't have experience with that, but having observed the surgery residents in an academic institution and at a private practice, it seems like at this particular private practice, the residents have a slightly better QOL because they have less on call time. At this practice, ER doctors can cut some cases (though this is ending) which decreased the burden of on call, and fewer cases get cut in the middle of the night because it ultimately ends up being a senior surgeon's decision. i doubt there is really a "family friendly" residency in any field, simply given the nature of residencies and the end goal, but the best way to figure out what might fit and what wont will be to talk to current residents, and try to visit places before you rank them. plenty of people make family and residency work, but its certainly a greater challenge and you will be making sacrifices.

 

[Caia]

Clin path has been said to be family friendly. But that's quite different from hands on clinical work like Sx.

 

[SocialStigma]

It'll be tough to find a family friendly surgery residency program because no matter where you go, you will be on call at some point. The caseload is generally lower at academic institutions compared to private practices though, and academic institutions also tend to have more residents (thus more people to split on call time with), so I would think it would be more manageable with a academic residency. Plus at schools you'll have 4th year students and interns to come in on weekends to check on in-hospital patients, update owners, etc, whereas you may not have that at a private practice.

 

[Cory88]

Thank you for the comments. I don't know what the etiquette is about changing the scope of a thread but I will anyway since it is related to family.

How about pay? Can you make more than the depressingly low wages of many internships (24-30k) in a residency? Most sites promoting residency options seem to avoid this component. Can you make 40-50k+ a year? Do you make more as you progress to your 2nd and 3rd years of the residency? Feel free to comment. Cory

 

[jmo1012]

It'll be tough to find a family friendly surgery residency program because no matter where you go, you will be on call at some point. The caseload is generally lower at academic institutions compared to private practices though, and academic institutions also tend to have more residents (thus more people to split on call time with), so I would think it would be more manageable with a academic residency. Plus at schools you'll have 4th year students and interns to come in on weekends to check on in-hospital patients, update owners, etc, whereas you may not have that at a private practice.

It's interesting that you have such an opposite view of my experience 🙂 the residents at my private practice spend significantly less time on call and have much shorter days.

Cory, you should visit virmp.org to get the most accurate info about residencies. A majority of small animal residencies list through here, and include salary information. Match happens in february, so this is no longer the most complete list, but it will also come out fresh for the new cycle in October.

 

[SocialStigma]

Thank you for the comments. I don't know what the etiquette is about changing the scope of a thread but I will anyway since it is related to family.

How about pay? Can you make more than the depressingly low wages of many internships (24-30k) in a residency? Most sites promoting residency options seem to avoid this component. Can you make 40-50k+ a year? Do you make more as you progress to your 2nd and 3rd years of the residency? Feel free to comment. Cory

You make slightly more as a resident than as an intern. The highest salary I've seen for surgery resident was ~$40k for positions in California, however the cost of living is also much higher there. All of the places I applied to were paying in the $27-37k range, and some of them will have small increments each year (ie. $28k in 1st year, $28500 in 2nd year, $29k in 3rd year, etc). I have yet to see a residency position pay more than $40-41k, and those are typically reserved for places with a higher cost of living. Check out listings on VIRMP because most surgery residencies are on there and they will list the annual salary.

 

[SocialStigma]

It's interesting that you have such an opposite view of my experience 🙂 the residents at my private practice spend significantly less time on call and have much shorter days.

Yeah I suspect it's quite variable between private practices how they run the surgery service, I never visited a referral hospital where the ER service cut cases so I'm sure that definitely has an impact on the surgery service caseload.

 

[jmo1012]

Yeah I suspect it's quite variable between private practices how they run the surgery service, I never visited a referral hospital where the ER service cut cases so I'm sure that definitely has an impact on the surgery service caseload.

Yhey are doing away with it, however, the surgery service is imposing a 10-10p rule (aka it will be a very rare case that gets cut outside of these hours)

 

[shortnsweet]

Our 3rd year resident (equine) has two children under the age of 2. it's doable, as long as your wife understands you'll be called in the middle of the night a lot.

and in my experience---residents make on average $30-38k/year no matter what specialty.

 

[drchrisdvm2009]

I know it's an old post, but I wanted to comment on my situation. My wife and I met in vet school...got married, had 2 kids during vet school (2nd and 4th year...yeah, that was fun). She was a trooper and took a total of 5 days off school between both kids and managed to keep a B average in all classes.

We then did an academic rotating internship together straight out of school, with a 2 yr old and a newborn.

Then I got accepted to a neuro residency and she did not get the ophtho residency she wanted, but decided to go to private practice and be my sugar momma for 3 years.

It is definitely hard on family life that you get called in all the time and are married to your work, but as long as your spouse is understanding and realizes that residency is only a few years and that hopefully things get better after you finish your program, then it's a temporary headache for a lifetime of benefits. BUT, don't kid yourself about your time commitments after you finish residency and are a boarded surgeon...depending on where you work, you may be on-call 24/7 and you have to make it a priority to spend time with your family and not get suckered in to the comfort of the hospital and knowing you know exactly what to do when you are there and maybe not with a newborn (it's really easy to stay later at work and pawn off the work onto your significant other, but then they start to resent you for working all the time).

It's tough, but there is never a good time to have a family, which is why we decided to have two kids while in vet school.

Feel free to e-mail me at any time if you have questions about anything.

Chris

 

[Log8]

I know it's an old post, but I wanted to comment on my situation. My wife and I met in vet school...got married, had 2 kids during vet school (2nd and 4th year...yeah, that was fun). She was a trooper and took a total of 5 days off school between both kids and managed to keep a B average in all classes.

We then did an academic rotating internship together straight out of school, with a 2 yr old and a newborn.


Chris

you are my freaking hero.
HOW did you do that. I'm married, starting my 3rd year of vet school (overseas, but still). My wife studies astronomy but is thinking about switching to mechanical engineering. We both want kids but the amount of stress (and the lack of money) that we both have right now was what we considered to be, "too much". I literally cannot imagine having even one kid. Is/was your wife pretty good about all that? I mean, was/is she supportive?

going back to the original subject though, I'm glad someone started a thread about this. It's something that I worry about too.

 

[Coquette22]

AVC has two surgeons who are married, I think one was on faculty and the other was a resident. The resident had two kids during her residency (and was a freaking trooper about it). I also had a classmate who was married to a surgical resident and they had a young kid together during her residency and then his internship, so it's definitely doable if both parents are on board and willing to work together and possibly making some sacrifices.

 

[Cory88]

Hi All,

Thank you for the comments. Chris, what an inspiring and humbling story. Don't be surprised if you receive an email from me in the future. Please keep the comments coming! It looks like I may need a quite a few more years of support!

Cory

 

[iamapm]

Hi all,

I am interested in doing a surgical residency but am quite nervous about the work load considering my wife and I want to start a family. Could anyone give me any insight or reflect on some personal experiences being in a residency with a family? Are some residencies more "family friendly" than others?Thanks.
Cory

It seems to me that the point of a residency is to dedicate yourself to that learning experience to gain some serious experience and some measure of mastery. There is a recent book (whose name escapes me just now) that discusses how various well known people and groups achieved their skill level and how that helped their careers. The major thrust of the book was that about 10,000 hours are required to achieve a level of mastery in any field. IMHO, there is much truth to that notion. Beyond that, you have chosen a field that is requires a level of dedication beyond 40 hours per week. It just does, unless you just want to be doing very boring things until you retire. Medicine is unpredictable, trauma happens, things get sick and they cannot wait. If you care and want to practice at a high level you will not be leaving at end of shift especially if you are on and there is no one else. Once you have achieved a level of mastery, you have more options and flexibility.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

It seems to me that the point of a residency is to dedicate yourself to that learning experience to gain some serious experience and some measure of mastery. There is a recent book (whose name escapes me just now) that discusses how various well known people and groups achieved their skill level and how that helped their careers. The major thrust of the book was that about 10,000 hours are required to achieve a level of mastery in any field. IMHO, there is much truth to that notion. Beyond that, you have chosen a field that is requires a level of dedication beyond 40 hours per week. It just does, unless you just want to be doing very boring things until you retire. Medicine is unpredictable, trauma happens, things get sick and they cannot wait. If you care and want to practice at a high level you will not be leaving at end of shift especially if you are on and there is no one else. Once you have achieved a level of mastery, you have more options and flexibility.

True, but the point of residency is also not to destroy your work life balance and capacity to have a family. Can it if you let it? Yes. But people shouldn't be indirectly shamed (which is what this post smacks of somewhat - I don't think that was your intent but it came off a little bit as such) for wanting to balance family and life with a residency. I doubt the OP is thinking it will be a cushy 40hr a week deal.

 

[jmo1012]

True, but the point of residency is also not to destroy your work life balance and capacity to have a family. Can it if you let it? Yes. But people shouldn't be indirectly shamed (which is what this post smacks of somewhat - I don't think that was your intent but it came off a little bit as such) for wanting to balance family and life with a residency. I doubt the OP is thinking it will be a cushy 40hr a week deal.

although the bolded statement is technically true, i can promise you that those in some of the clinical residents like IM, SX, and ECC often have caseloads and heavy responsibilities (like journal clubs, rounds, classes, teaching, research, etc.) that severely hinder ones ability to have a reasonable work-like balance. i honestly dont know how some of them survive working 12-14 hour days and then spending every day on call to be called in many hours in the evening or overnight most nights in a week, in addition to attending 5 classes a week, daily rounds, weekly journal clubs, etc.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

although the bolded statement is technically true, i can promise you that those in some of the clinical residents like IM, SX, and ECC often have caseloads and heavy responsibilities (like journal clubs, rounds, classes, teaching, research, etc.) that severely hinder ones ability to have a reasonable work-like balance. i honestly dont know how some of them survive working 12-14 hour days and then spending every day on call to be called in many hours in the evening or overnight most nights in a week, in addition to attending 5 classes a week, daily rounds, weekly journal clubs, etc.

Oh no, I completely agree. I think I wasn't clear enough, maybe I should rephrase: What I was getting as was, that is a side effect of residency, but it isn't necessarily something to be celebrated and put on a pedestal as some great sacrifice for learning. It's just a sucky reality. I don't like the sort of self-congratulatory masochism that can happen in those situations, because then people who *do* try to balance their lives can be looked at with disdain because they aren't "dedicated enough" or they "don't want to learn as much." - an attitude which I have seen a LOT of in academia. Does that make more sense?

 

[jmo1012]

Oh no, I completely agree. I think I wasn't clear enough, maybe I should rephrase: What I was getting as was, that is a side effect of residency, but it isn't necessarily something to be celebrated and put on a pedestal as some great sacrifice for learning. It's just a sucky reality. I don't like the sort of self-congratulatory masochism that can happen in those situations, because then people who *do* try to balance their lives can be looked at with disdain because they aren't "dedicated enough" or they "don't want to learn as much." - an attitude which I have seen a LOT of in academia. Does that make more sense?

much more sense!!