Surgical residency and marriage...

[Sthpawslugger]

How understanding is your spouse(and kids if you have them) that you are a surgical resident for 5 to 7 years?

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[armybound]

Mine is understanding. Her dad is a surgeon.

YMMV.

Time to have a long and honest conversation. What my wife can handle might not be the same as what yours can handle.

 

[Pir8DeacDoc]

Full Disclosure:
I am an ENT. So while I spent a lot of hours in the hospital doing various and sundry large operations on people for awful cancers, I didn't spend nearly the time over the course of my training that the general surgery folks did.

You need an understanding spouse. If they are medical, then that really can help. They know and understand the process, at least peripherally. If they are non-medical, they really have to understand that your life/time are very unpredictable. You will surely not be home at set times. You will probably have evening work to do- such as preparing for the cases the following day, putting together power point, or general reading. When you have free time you may or may not feel like doing things. Peace and quiet and a nap can be the highlight of a saturday at home. Encourage your spouse to make friends and have their own interests. You can't be their only source of entertainment.

 

[LucidSplash]

They need to understand that they will largely be a single parent while you are in training. Some spouses find ways to cope and others do not. My program had a solid group of wives who would get together often and they had the support of each other who were all in the same situation. Even with a supportive family-friendly program, I have seen divorces amongst my colleagues. Most of my coresidents’ and friends’ marriages survived training but a few did not. It very much depends on expectations and the individual people involved and the support available.

One of my attendings’ wives would counsel that you could have a great marriage with a surgeon as long as you didn’t expect it to be like that of your friends who were married to non-surgeons.

 

[armybound]

They need to understand that they will largely be a single parent while you are in training. Some spouses fin ways to cope and others do not. My program had a solid group of wives who would get together often and they had the support of each other who were all in the same situation. Even with a supportive family-friendly program, I have seen divorces amongst my colleagues. Most of my coresidents’ and friends’ marriages survived training but a few did not. It very much depends on expectations and the individual people involved and the support available.

One of my attendings’ wives would counsel that you could have a great marriage with a surgeon as long as you didn’t expect it to be like that of your friends who were married to non-surgeons.

Agree completely with all of this. My wife is a single mother. It's tough.

 

[deleted547339]

Not a surgeon, married and in-training. All marriages in medicine are tough. There are some times where it's just going to suck and your wife isn't going to get it, but this should be the exception, not the rule. My wife has found a lot more happiness in learning things that she can do alone, with friends, or, now, just with our child. If their social life is 100% dependent on you, like many outside of medicine, she will feel stifled.

Also, each training programs are different. Although derm and gen surg are likely on the two extremes, there are derm programs that overwork their residents and are malignant and there are gen surg programs that are more restrictive on hours and more supportive. If family life, having a kid in residency, etc is reasonably important to you, you probably shouldn't go to a program that prides itself on breaking duty hours. Find somewhere that has residents that are married and have kids. Obviously, you aren't going to have a comfortable life by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't think theres any shame in weighing whether a program has q4,5,6 call vs. q3 call when youre picking a program. I don't think theres any shame in picking a program with some midlevel help.

Everything in life is about tradeoffs. Trying to foster a happy marriage and maybe have kids means you may not get to be the world's best surgeon who trains at MGH and does extra research years and moves across country for the best fellowship. It may mean you do a community program in a city close to your wife's parents that has a good, but not great, in-house fellowship. Some people will probably crucify me for saying this because they feel surgery is the end-all be-all and you have to choose the best, hardest program you can get into because it's your surgical training after all that will determine the rest of your career. But it's completely acceptable to say that you want to be a competent physician who has a happy marriage and prioritize that. Different strokes. Just make this decision consciously and deliberately. Don't back into something without realizing the consequences. If you prioritize your career, that's one way to go, but don't be surprised when your marriage suffers. If you prioritize your marriage, don't be surprised when your career suffers. That's not to say you can't be successful at both, but it's all about tradeoffs and marginal utility.

Also, do you best to minimize other strains on your marriage during this time. Minimizing debt to avoid financial stress, etc is important. Going to a program where you like the other people t the program is important. If you're unhappy at work, you will likely bring some of that home. If you're unhappy at work, you will likely bring some of that to work.

There's no magic bullet. Marriage is tough. Having kids is tough. Doing it all while in medicine is tough. Doing it all while in training is likely tougher. I'm happy to be 5 months from the end of training with an intact marriage and healthy toddler. Good luck.

 

[Jolie South]

A lot depends on how busy your spouse is with work and other activities and if you have kids, if there is additional family around to help with some of the burden.

On the resident side of things, I think marriage is very feasible. At the same time, I was not gunning to be a department chair at an academic institution. I am lucky in that I am a very efficient person and I can retain lots of information when studying little amounts of time so I wasn’t doing tons of after hours “homework.” I probably also sacrificed sleep to spend extra time with my husband.

There are days when you are going to work late and there is nothing you can do about it though. That’s when it takes understanding on your spouse’s side. I think you have to be real when getting into a relationship with someone about what your life is actually like and doing so before you have an understanding about how you function in residency is ill advised.

 

[TypeADissection]

Very. But it works because she's an ENT already out of residency while I'm rounding third base. It works both ways because neither one of is particularly emotionally needy and we've learned to communicate in "assessment and plans" to get the important stuff across. It is hard though and without an understanding spouse, this job becomes a lot harder when there is no respite to look forward to at home. I've seen colleagues and attendings who'd rather be at work, not necessarily because they love it, but because it probably makes more sense and they can fix stuff and not necessarily so when they go home.

I consider myself very fortunate because my wife is dope, my job is dope and my kid is dope too. Cheers.

 

[TheOther]

Very. But it works because she's an ENT already out of residency while I'm rounding third base. It works both ways because neither one of is particularly emotionally needy and we've learned to communicate in "assessment and plans" to get the important stuff across. It is hard though and without an understanding spouse, this job becomes a lot harder when there is no respite to look forward to at home. I've seen colleagues and attendings who'd rather be at work, not necessarily because they love it, but because it probably makes more sense and they can fix stuff and not necessarily so when they go home.

I consider myself very fortunate because my wife is dope, my job is dope and my kid is dope too. Cheers.

Dope.

 

[Sthpawslugger]

Thank you all sharing your stories. Having worked a number of years in healthcare, and at times, multiple jobs/commitments, my wife has become somewhat accustomed to my odd hours, and of course while a medical student. I think it's important, too, that I choose a specialty that I will love as opposed to just being the shorter in terms of residency length, say 5 vs 3 yr. That has crossed my mind a time or two. I understand the wife has made sacrifices to support me through this journey and will continue to do so through training(so very appreciative), but I don't want to resent both marriages: the medical specialty because it wasn't what I really wanted, and down the road, my wife for doing what might make her happier, a shorter residency/quicker path to becoming an attending. We have no children yet, but it's been discussed heavily. I know I'm going to miss out on some important milestones early on, but will make the most of the time I have to give while training.

 

[cpants]

It's definitely a challenge. I was lucky to have a very supportive wife through a tough urology residency -- frequently over hours and lots of presentations/homework. You can make it work, but you have to keep communication lines open and the spouse is going to have to sacrifice..... a lot. Recognizing that, my advice is to give up what you can for your spouse. Try to land a residency in the location of your spouse's choosing, regardless of your goals. Being near their family and friends is a BIG benefit that isn't on your radar during medical school. When you working 100+ hours per week, he/she will have a support system and social opportunities set up.

What little you can control during residency, control to benefit your spouse. Make sure you are never on call for your anniversary or her birthday. If there is a special event for her, make a big effort to get off for it. You obviously won't always be successful, but a little effort goes a long way to keeping a happy marriage.

While you are going to be dead-tired at home and have outside-the-hospital work to complete, do your best to be present as much as possible during home hours. Plan date nights on postcall days. Keep the romance alive. Bring home flowers once in a while.

There is a light at the end of the tunnel. While being married to a surgeon is never easy, attendingdom comes in most cases with a large amount of control over your schedule.

 

[Osteoth]

Very. But it works because she's an ENT already out of residency while I'm rounding third base. It works both ways because neither one of is particularly emotionally needy and we've learned to communicate in "assessment and plans" to get the important stuff across. It is hard though and without an understanding spouse, this job becomes a lot harder when there is no respite to look forward to at home. I've seen colleagues and attendings who'd rather be at work, not necessarily because they love it, but because it probably makes more sense and they can fix stuff and not necessarily so when they go home.

I consider myself very fortunate because my wife is dope, my job is dope and my kid is dope too. Cheers.

Dope.

Dope.

 

[Psai]

Very. But it works because she's an ENT already out of residency while I'm rounding third base. It works both ways because neither one of is particularly emotionally needy and we've learned to communicate in "assessment and plans" to get the important stuff across. It is hard though and without an understanding spouse, this job becomes a lot harder when there is no respite to look forward to at home. I've seen colleagues and attendings who'd rather be at work, not necessarily because they love it, but because it probably makes more sense and they can fix stuff and not necessarily so when they go home.

I consider myself very fortunate because my wife is dope, my job is dope and my kid is dope too. Cheers.

Rounding third base. Nice.

 

[mimelim]

How understanding is your spouse(and kids if you have them) that you are a surgical resident for 5 to 7 years?

I work over 100 hours/week on average (80 of which are ACGME and 20+ are other things. My wife drops me off at the hospital almost every morning (on days that I actually come home) at 5am. We also spend virtually every minute when I'm not in the hospital together. We share interests and tastes, so we are rather efficient with our time. I gave up my solo activities like most computer gaming, but fill my free time with other hobbies which are equally or more enjoyable. It also helps that I sleep 4-5 hours a day, so I get 3-4 hours of work (or SDN time) done while she is asleep. She is a busy professional herself and essentially runs the home by herself. She is also relatively introverted and prefers long stretches of being on her own.

The perks of marrying my best friend and the best person that I know. I would have survived medical school and residency, but I would not be nearly as successful and not nearly as happy without her.

 

[kitsunepixie]

I work over 100 hours/week on average (80 of which are ACGME and 20+ are other things. My wife drops me off at the hospital almost every morning (on days that I actually come home) at 5am. We also spend virtually every minute when I'm not in the hospital together. We share interests and tastes, so we are rather efficient with our time. I gave up my solo activities like most computer gaming, but fill my free time with other hobbies which are equally or more enjoyable. It also helps that I sleep 4-5 hours a day, so I get 3-4 hours of work (or SDN time) done while she is asleep. She is a busy professional herself and essentially runs the home by herself. She is also relatively introverted and prefers long stretches of being on her own.

The perks of marrying my best friend and the best person that I know. I would have survived medical school and residency, but I would not be nearly as successful and not nearly as happy without her.

Second this. Luckily for me, my husband very nearly become an MD himself and his mother was going through residency when he was a small child, and he lived with his brother while he was going through residency; thus, he had an idea of what I would be dealing with, even though they weren't surgeons. He would also drop me off at the hospital every am (and still does most mornings) so that we could chat and listen to Audible together. He would also bring me dinner when he picked me up on evenings/nights that ran late. I was/am spoiled.

 

[ArmCandy]

My children were born 2nd and 3rd year of med school so surgical residency was all they really knew. It was all just normal to them. Now they are some of the more well adjusted kids I see.

I had a more difficult time, my wife being tougher than I, was always able to calm me down when I got into a hissy.

 

[Osteoth]

I work over 100 hours/week on average (80 of which are ACGME and 20+ are other things. My wife drops me off at the hospital almost every morning (on days that I actually come home) at 5am. We also spend virtually every minute when I'm not in the hospital together. We share interests and tastes, so we are rather efficient with our time. I gave up my solo activities like most computer gaming, but fill my free time with other hobbies which are equally or more enjoyable. It also helps that I sleep 4-5 hours a day, so I get 3-4 hours of work (or SDN time) done while she is asleep. She is a busy professional herself and essentially runs the home by herself. She is also relatively introverted and prefers long stretches of being on her own.

The perks of marrying my best friend and the best person that I know. I would have survived medical school and residency, but I would not be nearly as successful and not nearly as happy without her.

#goals.

 

[coldleg]

The secret seems to be having a spouse who is busy too. The marriages that fell apart were the ones where the resident was working typical insane resident hours, and the spouse was constantly waiting around for the resident to come home. Nothing puts on the stress like the "are coming home soon" "where are you" texts when you get out of the OR.

The spouses with full time jobs or a lot of outside hobbies tended to fair the best through the training **** storm.

My favorite mentor from medical school said it best. "Marriage in medicine is like a card game. Stay late at the hospital, miss the birthday, cancel the visit with the in laws, you hand in a card. For every card you hand in, make sure you earn one back. Take the kids to the zoo. Go out for a romantic dinner. Bring home flowers. Just make sure that when you hand in a card, you have a few in the deck. Divorce happens when you have no more cards left..." I am convinced that this advice was responsible for the survival of my marriage through training.

 

[Sthpawslugger]

The secret seems to be having a spouse who is busy too. The marriages that fell apart were the ones where the resident was working typical insane resident hours, and the spouse was constantly waiting around for the resident to come home. Nothing puts on the stress like the "are coming home soon" "where are you" texts when you get out of the OR.

The spouses with full time jobs or a lot of outside hobbies tended to fair the best through the training **** storm.

My favorite mentor from medical school said it best. "Marriage in medicine is like a card game. Stay late at the hospital, miss the birthday, cancel the visit with the in laws, you hand in a card. For every card you hand in, make sure you earn one back. Take the kids to the zoo. Go out for a romantic dinner. Bring home flowers. Just make sure that when you hand in a card, you have a few in the deck. Divorce happens when you have no more cards left..." I am convinced that this advice was responsible for the survival of my marriage through training.

I really like the card game analogy. Thanks for sharing!

 

[akwho]

My favorite mentor from medical school said it best. "Marriage in medicine is like a card game. Stay late at the hospital, miss the birthday, cancel the visit with the in laws, you hand in a card. For every card you hand in, make sure you earn one back. Take the kids to the zoo. Go out for a romantic dinner. Bring home flowers. Just make sure that when you hand in a card, you have a few in the deck. Divorce happens when you have no more cards left..." I am convinced that this advice was responsible for the survival of my marriage through training.

Posts like these are why I stay on SDN.

 

[Sthpawslugger]

On an unrelated note, my wife and I miss our hometown 4 hours away. She certainly misses family and friends. There are only 2 residency programs available-both primary care-and so at times it's honestly been tempting to return home for rotations in a year, apply to those two programs, get in, and never have to move again. Have any of you ever felt a similar pull?