Survey: Most U.S. Doctors Believe in God

[CTG]

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taking this news message in a different perspective:
more than 20% of doctors don't believe in god at all!!

that's significantly bigger than the general american population.

So then, the statistics says that doctors are LESS spiritual compared to average. Not MORE spiritual.

Sigh. Simple people like you are so easily duped.

except that this is, once again, a science based field-and doctors are more spiritual than other scientists. the article makes it clear that this is one of the notable factors of the statistic.

 

[pakidoc]

that aint too surprizing paki 🙄

 

[criminallyinane]

are you afraid of burning in hell? honestly, are you?? if so, WHY???? you say you dont believe in God so you nothing to worry about right??

or maybe, youre not afraid of burning in Hell, but you get nervous when someone says you will - again WHY???? they are basing that on having gone and Judged you. even in christianity, we are taught not to judge others. so what could that person possibly know? you have nothing to worry about - right??

No, I am not afraid of burning in hell, because hell doesn't exist.

I get annoyed that people insist on saying that atheists will be condemned for all eternity. Why do I get annoyed? Because it's rude to tell someone that they are going to spend eternity rotting away. It's rude to tell someone that their beliefs will be the death of their soul. It's rude to tell someone, 'you're wrong, I'm right, and you will see this when you BURN IN HELL!'

It's just plain rude.

I don't go around telling people who are religious, 'you're wasting an hour of your life every Sunday praying to something that doesn't exist, *******!' because that would be rude, even if that might be what I think. So theists shouldn't tell me that I am wasting my life or damning my "soul", they should just respect that I don't agree with them about the existence of a "deity." I have no convincing proof of intelligent design or existence of a god and I don't intend to look for meaning where I believe there is none.

I think it is theists who are scared more than atheists - because you have something to be scared of - answering to your Lord, as you believe you will do. Me, I know that's not going to happen, so I live my life free of worry, guilt, or concern; I simply concern myself with treating my fellow humans well, as opposed to treating some deity well. Anyway, any deity wouldn't need my help

 

[CTG]

Not to butt in, but it is quite correct that "love thy neighbor as thyself" is one of the fundamental tenets of Chrisitianity. I'm not sure there's really room for debate, especially if you're aware of the scriptural context. I don't see the harm in referencing it in order to explain why many doctors are Christian or religious in general. Just means that a Christian perspective could very easily lead one into medicine.

The only problem I have with religion and science is a slight bias in basic science against religion, as if it is somehow surrendering to a less intellectual, and therefore inferior, side of the world. Note: I said slight. I don't think the bias is large.

but how do you explain all those "medical miracles?" i think what keeps many doctor-scientists and other intellectual people believing in God are those tiny yet profound moments in life that have no logical or scientific basis.

 

[tigress]

I've never told anybody they're going to burn in hell. Anyway I don't even really believe in hell. But I get told all the time that I'm going to burn in hell. I just love it when people tell me that. And they're so sincere. Do they really think it's helpful to tell me this?

 

[CTG]

As a religious person, I will certainly agree with you that believing in God is illogical. In fact, more people might believe in God if they understood that logic has nothing to do with it. Of course, more people might understand logic better if they understood the number of fallacies in any metaphysics based on logic (cf. Immanuel Kant's "Prolegomena to any Future Metaphysics" or "Critique of Pure Reason"... other good critiques can be found from Hegel and Nietzsche).

Criminallyinane, do you really think that the amount of hate from "jesus freaks" has more to do with their faith or with their humanity? Specifically, do you really think the world would be a better place in 500 years if religion did not exist? I would contend that hate is not inherent in theism, but rather hate is inherent in humanity, and people will use whatever institutions they have to propagate hate, whether it be religion, government, business, or any other organizational constructions, because people tend to want power and control. Oppression will always exist, and so will hate, but if religion goes away, people will just find new ways to express their hate.

Amen...if I could speak that eloquently that's exactly what I would have said. 👍

 

[humuhumu]

I've never told anybody they're going to burn in hell. Anyway I don't even really believe in hell. But I get told all the time that I'm going to burn in hell. I just love it when people tell me that. And they're so sincere. Do they really think it's helpful to tell me this?

Wait...people tell you that all the time?? Where do you live? I agree with criminallyinane -- telling people they're going to hell is just plain rude.

 

[freaker]

I wish I had been born 500 years from now so that I could live in a predominantly God-free society where there are no Jesus freaks who hate people in the name of "religion." Believing in God is so illogical; hopefully, as our generation starts to move into medicine, more and more doctors will stop believing in this mythology. I think life would be more meaningful if people didn't live it for this mythical figure, "god", that was made up 2000 years ago to explain phenomena that we have since explained via science.

🙄

No comment.

 

[criminallyinane]

I've never told anybody they're going to burn in hell. Anyway I don't even really believe in hell. But I get told all the time that I'm going to burn in hell. I just love it when people tell me that. And they're so sincere. Do they really think it's helpful to tell me this?

I find it funny when extremist Christians tell Jews they are going to burn in hell for not accepting Jesus, but this Jesus man was supposedly a Jew, eh? I doubt that if God = Jesus and Jesus = Jew, then any God could possibly hate the Jews 🙄 That's just crazy talk.

 

[tigress]

Wait...people tell you that all the time?? Where do you live? I agree with criminallyinane -- telling people they're going to hell is just plain rude.

well, not ALL the time, but I get it. In high school there were a few kids who would basically tell me that every day. I grew up in Charleston, SC, but actually the two people who were horrible to me weren't from there at all; I think one had moved from Tennessee and I don't remember where the other was from. Anyway it wasn't because I was where I was, I don't think, because it was just a few people.

These days I only hear it like once every few months. From random people mostly.

edit: Jews don't actually believe in hell, per se. I guess in general we tend to focus less on the afterlife and more on our current life, although there is definitely the concept of an afterlife. It's not really restricted to specific people, though. I'm not saying my beliefs are better than anybody else's, because I don't think that. Everybody has to believe what is right for him. I just don't like it when somebody's beliefs are openly anti-me.

 

[espbeliever]

I find it funny when extremist Christians tell Jews they are going to burn in hell for not accepting Jesus, but this Jesus man was supposedly a Jew, eh? I doubt that if God = Jesus and Jesus = Jew, then any God could possibly hate the Jews 🙄 That's just crazy talk.

God doesnt hate any of us.

Christian theology: if you chose to not accept God, then basically God will not force himself on you, rather, your choice will be honored and you are forever separated from God. This is the burning in hell thing.

 

[CTG]

I wholly agree and know there are many GOOD Christians out there who use their faith to guide their morality only, not as a vehicle for hatred. I have enormous respect for the faithful. I merely cannot believe myself, because I think there are far greater explanations as to why we would make up religion, than explanations that adequately show that God likely exists.

Criminallyinane,
Having said that, can you come up with an example that shows God doesn't exist? I'm spiritual myself, in case you can't tell...and I have debates about the existence of God with friends all the time...so I bring this up merely in the spirit of debate. Friendly arguments only from me. 🙂 The one thing all my atheist/agnostic friends have never been able to support is that there is no God....I can come up with examples of miracles that I believe are attributable only to a higher power...you may or may not buy them...but in my mind that is proof enough. But I would like to see one person explain away God. And talking about the Big Bang Theory won't work b/c who started that?...someone had to.

 

[freaker]

So....did any of you happen to touch on anything related to religion, spirituality, faith, or God in your AMCAS application? Just curious. I did; it was unavoidable given some of my volunteer experience.

I did. I actually quoted Paul to reflect my calling towards medicine. I had at least one interviewer at each school (minus one) compliement me on my PS, as well, so I don't think it's something that hurts you. Several of my interviewers got into conversations with me about merely quoting the Bible or the DaVinci Code. I can't say that my personal statement referred exclusively to my religious beliefs, but I really don't distinguish my humanistic/religious beliefs. They're integrated in my mind.

As for it being rude to tell someone that they are going to hell, it's also rude to tell someone that their lifestyle is killing them. It can be done in compassion. It can also be done dismissively and as an insult. It depends on how you approach the matter, really. I'm not going to say that it's rude under any circumstane. It's not.

The "going to hell argument" is somethng that is rarely preached in churches. I've been to services in over 15 denominations at least twice. It's just not something you hear much about. It certainly wasn't the focus of Christ's teaching, though that element is there.

 

[criminallyinane]

God doesnt hate any of us.

Christian theology: if you chose to not accept God, then basically God will not force himself on you, rather, your choice will be honored and you are forever separated from God. This is the burning in hell thing.

here's what I don't get. An omniscient deity would create man and woman knowing that if he gave them free will, some would stray from him. If he knows the fallacy of man and as "our creator" is omniscient and above a human way of thinking, then why would he act like a kid who takes his ball and goes home if you don't play his way? That's an anthropomorphization of your deity, who is supposed to be above that. God wouldn't create man with free will (to accept or choose him) and then turn his back on those who don't play his way. That's a flawed, human way of acting.

Humans wouldn't have the capability to understand an omniscient being, so it makes sense that you assign him human traits, but really, I can't see an omniscient deity using this farciccal reasoning and having such an attitude problem. I just don't get it. It makes 0 sense to me. So I choose not to believe. And if I'm wrong, then maybe this omniscient deity already knows it and will forgive me for at least trying to understand things that are illogical. But I'm not going to hold my breath worrying about it... because I'm 99.99% sure God doesn't exist.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

well, not ALL the time, but I get it. In high school there were a few kids who would basically tell me that every day. I grew up in Charleston, SC, but actually the two people who were horrible to me weren't from there at all; I think one had moved from Tennessee and I don't remember where the other was from. Anyway it wasn't because I was where I was, I don't think, because it was just a few people.

These days I only hear it like once every few months. From random people mostly.

edit: Jews don't actually believe in hell, per se. I guess in general we tend to focus less on the afterlife and more on our current life, although there is definitely the concept of an afterlife. It's not really restricted to specific people, though. I'm not saying my beliefs are better than anybody else's, because I don't think that. Everybody has to believe what is right for him. I just don't like it when somebody's beliefs are openly anti-me.

What is Sheol?

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

God doesnt hate any of us.

Christian theology: if you chose to not accept God, then basically God will not force himself on you, rather, your choice will be honored and you are forever separated from God. This is the burning in hell thing.

Absolutely. People like criminallyinane are always getting confrontational and say stuff like: "Oh, so you think I will burn in hell, don't you? Well, WILL I?" And they get all puffed up and fuming. Not only does it betray their own deep-seated fears, but it is also turning the tables.

God does not want ANYBODY to suffer eternal separation from Him. In the New Testament, we have the record of Christ's sacrifice for ALL mankind. Even before Christ, God had mercy on his sinful creation when he sent Jonah to preach to Ninevah, the proud and evil city of Assyria. Because he loved them, even the Ninevites, and was not willing to destroy them.

It is YOU, the human individual, who is responsible for your eternal destiny. Don't blame God for the choices that you have made.

 

[espbeliever]

here's what I don't get. An omniscient deity would create man and woman knowing that if he gave them free will, some would stray from him. If he knows the fallacy of man and as "our creator" is omniscient and above a human way of thinking, then why would he act like a kid who takes his ball and goes home if you don't play his way? That's an anthropomorphization of your deity, who is supposed to be above that. God wouldn't create man with free will (to accept or choose him) and then turn his back on those who don't play his way. That's a flawed, human way of acting.

Humans wouldn't have the capability to understand an omniscient being, so it makes sense that you assign him human traits, but really, I can't see an omniscient deity using this farciccal reasoning and having such an attitude problem. I just don't get it. It makes 0 sense to me. So I choose not to believe. And if I'm wrong, then maybe this omniscient deity already knows it and will forgive me for at least trying to understand things that are illogical. But I'm not going to hold my breath worrying about it... because I'm 99.99% sure God doesn't exist.

thats your choice.

the way i see it is that God is not really turning his back or getting an attitude problem, but rather, upholding as the person wished, that is not to trust in God. anyways, that is my feeble attempt at understanding it....

 

[criminallyinane]

Criminallyinane,
Having said that, can you come up with an example that shows God doesn't exist? I'm spiritual myself, in case you can't tell...and I have debates about the existence of God with friends all the time...so I bring this up merely in the spirit of debate. Friendly arguments only from me. 🙂 The one thing all my atheist/agnostic friends have never been able to support is that there is no God....I can come up with examples of miracles that I believe are attributable only to a higher power...you may or may not buy them...but in my mind that is proof enough. But I would like to see one person explain away God. And talking about the Big Bang Theory won't work b/c who started that?...someone had to.

I guess the way I think about it is, the default of any situation is that there is nothing there or the simplest explanation prevails (Occam's razor.) The burden of proof lies in those attempting to show that there is a god because that is a more complicated situation than having no God. Every argument I have heard for the existence of God doesn't impress me. I have no "proof" that God doesn't exist because you can't "prove" nothing, you know what I mean? But I also don't see any reasonable proof that God does exist, and think it much more likely that in biblical times, before people understood the origin of species and the stars and planets and all that good stuff, they decided that there must be a heavenly power that has created it all. Now that we know more about evolution, how the solar system works, galaxies, etc, we know more about the order of the universe and have at least an explanation as to how humans evolved. It seems to me that the more we know, the less we need to rely on the supernatural to explain life and the universe. We know how babies are made. It seems like a miracle, but it's actually just a very complicated fugue of biochemical reactions, cell divisions, etc.

I believe in evolution. There is proof for it and it is sensible.

I probably haven't answered your question very well, but if you tell me why you believe in God or what proof you have for God's existence, I will explain why those theories don't hold for me as best as I can.

 

[criminallyinane]

Absolutely. People like criminallyinane are always getting confrontational and say stuff like: "Oh, so you think I will burn in hell, don't you? Well, WILL I?" And they get all puffed up and fuming. Not only does it betray their own deep-seated fears, but it is also turning the tables.

I didn't say that. I have no fear because I don't believe in hell. I just think people who twist my words and beliefs and tell me I'm going to rot in hell are annoying and rude.

It is YOU, the human individual, who is responsible for your eternal destiny. Don't blame God for the choices that you have made.

I don't blame "God" because I don't believe in God. God does not exist.

 

[Fantasy Sports]

God doesnt hate any of us.

Christian theology: if you chose to not accept God, then basically God will not force himself on you, rather, your choice will be honored and you are forever separated from God. This is the burning in hell thing.

Except for gay people, who even if they believe in god, are told they will burn in hell.

Its fascinating how a religion that will have priests forgive murderers and rapists on death row before they are executed will condemn homosexuals to eternal flame.

Love thy neighbor... unless he is not-white, not-christian, not-straight, and not your denomination (ie. Baptists vs. Episcopalians).

Religion might be the only field aside from politics where just about anyone without concern for merit can end up leading a whole group of people. The difference is, we question our politicians.. we generally don't question our religious leaders. This is why Catholic priests were able to get away with moving child molesters between denominations for so long.

The thing that makes religious and science seemingly incompatible is that religion is based on absolute unquestioning faith in a text or what someone in a position of power says, while science is based on constantly testing the status quo. That's why Bush can say there are WMDs in Iraq, and even if they are not, all the super-religious people who have been conditioned to obey unconditionally to authority figures will believe that statement, even though it is not true.

So frankly, its good that doctors are disproportionately atheistic, because it lets us approach problems with a more open mind. And frankly, if religious folk are supposed to be more compassionate and moral, Im sure not seeing it (at least, they might be compassionate to others like them, but not to people who differ).

 

[CTG]

No, I am not afraid of burning in hell, because hell doesn't exist.

I get annoyed that people insist on saying that atheists will be condemned for all eternity. Why do I get annoyed? Because it's rude to tell someone that they are going to spend eternity rotting away. It's rude to tell someone that their beliefs will be the death of their soul. It's rude to tell someone, 'you're wrong, I'm right, and you will see this when you BURN IN HELL!'

It's just plain rude.

This isn't just a common interaction between theists and atheists. I'm very spiritual, but I'm not Christian, and I've been told by Christians that I will burn in hell for that very reason. There's something very unsettling about having a friendly conversation with someone and knowing that in the back of his/her mind that person is thinking that I am going to Hell. Now, I also know that people of other faiths besides Christianity believe that those who don't follow their religion will go to Hell. There are people of my religion who believe that...but I don't. I also know that not all Christians think I'm going to Hell. I don't think religion was created to segregate and alienate people...however, in the hands of human corruption, it has done that on many levels. Despite all of this, though, I believe there is a higher power out there with a greater plan than any of us can fathom.
In my mind, the key to spirituality is faith and what it does for each individual on a personal level...sometimes you need to throw out the rules because chances are a lot of them were made up by man along the way.

 

[freaker]

Sheol is a slightly murky concept of hell found in the Hebrew Scriptures. The ideas of Dante's Inferno as a layered hell likely in part come from it, as there are mentions of the deepest recesses of hell. Still, it's not a place of torment so much as misery/hopelessness/sorrow.

It's also a place from where men can be delievered from by God.

There is a concept of a torturous hell in Judaism, namely, Gehenna, but it is not an infinite torture or burning.

Again, the concept isn't laid forth concretely, but it is there.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Maybe some illogical christians could just get together and get some armbands or flags or something and get rid of morally corrupted atheists who "have no place in medicine"?

Oh wait... they tried that in Germany, then in Russia. Didn't work, those darned scientists keep coming back.

Some of the posts coming from the atheist party are so hateful. And they accuse us of hate.

For your information, Germany and Soviet Russia were probably the most atheist states in the past century. The Soviet Union destroyed so many churches and synagogues. They killed clergy. They even dynamited the Russian Orthodox patriarchate in Moscow and left the great Basil Cathedral in total disrepair (there were some plans to wreck that, too). And Nazi Germany harked back to the pagan Norse era, and attacked and ruthlessly killed all religious figures who opposed them, from German protestant theologian Bonhoffer, to Polish Catholic priests and nuns and Greek Orthodox priests who hid away Jews in Thessaloniki, etc.

In fact, the notion of euthanasia, of killing those not suitable to society, was a concept crafted by atheist German physicians, and is rooted in atheist German philosophy.

Your post displays such ignorance, why don't you take a few classes in history before you blab away.

 

[CTG]

God doesnt hate any of us.

Christian theology: if you chose to not accept God, then basically God will not force himself on you, rather, your choice will be honored and you are forever separated from God. This is the burning in hell thing.

That's pretty similar to Islam, fyi. Just educating people. 🙂

 

[espbeliever]

Except for gay people, who even if they believe in god, are told they will burn in hell.

Its fascinating how a religion that will have priests forgive murderers and rapists on death row before they are executed will condemn homosexuals to eternal flame.

Love thy neighbor... unless he is not-white, not-christian, not-straight, and not your denomination (ie. Baptists vs. Episcopalians).

Religion might be the only field aside from politics where just about anyone without concern for merit can end up leading a whole group of people. The difference is, we question our politicians.. we generally don't question our religious leaders. This is why Catholic priests were able to get away with moving child molesters between denominations for so long.

The thing that makes religious and science seemingly incompatible is that religion is based on absolute unquestioning faith in a text or what someone in a position of power says, while science is based on constantly testing the status quo. That's why Bush can say there are WMDs in Iraq, and even if they are not, all the super-religious people who have been conditioned to obey unconditionally to authority figures will believe that statement, even though it is not true.

So frankly, its good that doctors are disproportionately atheistic, because it lets us approach problems with a more open mind. And frankly, if religious folk are supposed to be more compassionate and moral, Im sure not seeing it (at least, they might be compassionate to others like them, but not to people who differ).

oh, so you think gay ppl will burn in hell? then line me up too. being gay has nothing to do with burning in hell.

further, throughout the bible is the overwhelming sense TO question authority. the laws and ppl must be compared to the bible for truth. i am not at all conditioned to just accept authority.

if you think it to be rude for uneducated christians to tell you that you will be going to hell, then i think it rude for you to tell me what i believe.

nothing you have written is accurate to what i believe.

i have given ppl who are not christian respect and let them be at it. i request the same in return.

thanks! 🙂

 

[espbeliever]

That's pretty similar to Islam, fyi. Just educating people. 🙂

partially. i can go into detail on the differences but im thinking that no one in this conversation would really care anyways. but basically, the very basis of christianity is fundamentally different from islam.

 

[tigress]

What is Sheol?

Basically a grave. That's how I would usually translate it. It sort of has the connotation of an afterlife, but in many places it's just used to mean grave. It certainly isn't hell, because both righteous and non-righteous people in the Bible speak of going there.

The closest Jewish concept to hell is gehenna or gehinnom. In our own scripture this often refers to an actual specific place in Israel, not to a spiritual concept of the afterlife. However, some theology points to it as a sort of place where bad people might go after death. That understand of it seems to post-date Christianty and was most likely influenced by Christian beliefs. In everyday life we don't have a concept of hell. The idea is that after you die you sort of get shown a video of all the bad things you've ever done, but this happens to everybody. Also all the good things. I think most Jewish theology doesn't dwell too much on the afterlife because it is agreed that we can't possibly know much about it, having never experienced it ourselves.

Of course we also believe in reincarnation. Most people don't know that.

 

[espbeliever]

Basically a grave. That's how I would usually translate it. It sort of has the connotation of an afterlife, but in many places it's just used to mean grave. It certainly isn't hell, because both righteous and non-righteous people in the Bible speak of going there.

The closest Jewish concept to hell is gehenna or gehinnom. In our own scripture this often refers to an actual specific place in Israel, not to a spiritual concept of the afterlife. However, some theology points to it as a sort of place where bad people might go after death. That understand of it seems to post-date Christianty and was most likely influenced by Christian beliefs. In everyday life we don't have a concept of hell. The idea is that after you die you sort of get shown a video of all the bad things you've ever done, but this happens to everybody. Also all the good things. I think most Jewish theology doesn't dwell too much on the afterlife because it is agreed that we can't possibly know much about it, having never experienced it ourselves.

Of course we also believe in reincarnation. Most people don't know that.

where is reincarnation biblical? that is a new one to me.

do you give sacrifices? 😕

 

[caribbeanmd]

<Survey: Most U.S. Doctors Believe in God>

As an atheist, I'm offended by this survey. There's still 22% that doesn't believe in G*d. And that's higher than the general population.

 

[tigress]

Sheol is a slightly murky concept of hell found in the Hebrew Scriptures. The ideas of Dante's Inferno as a layered hell likely in part come from it, as there are mentions of the deepest recesses of hell. Still, it's not a place of torment so much as misery/hopelessness/sorrow.

It's also a place from where men can be delievered from by God.

There is a concept of a torturous hell in Judaism, namely, Gehenna, but it is not an infinite torture or burning.

Again, the concept isn't laid forth concretely, but it is there.

Yes, you can find shadows of the concept. It's not part of our everyday belief system, however.

Check out references to "sheol". It's used by many of the most righteous characters in the Bible as the place they will go when they die. Like I said above, it's sort of "grave," but not all that clear. If you look at Jewish translations of the Torah it is most often translated "grave."

And yes, as I said, gehenna is not infinite torture. It's not quite clear what it is. The origin of the term is a place in Israel where human sacrifices took place, a certain valley outside Jerusalem. There are no real scriptual references to it as anything other than that, though there are later theological references.

 

[espbeliever]

Yes, you can find shadows of the concept. It's not part of our everyday belief system, however.

if you mean reincarnation by saying the soul does not die, fine, i agree, that is very biblical, but saying your soul goes off to inhabit a frog, that is not biblical...

 

[Phil Anthropist]

If you don't believe in God, you believe humans are the highest form of life.

Usually people are the other way around: religious people believe they are the highest form of life, whereas atheists see no reason to believe that humans are above any other life form.

I'm not quite sure where you're coming from, since you seem to have it backwards.

Many Christian religions believe that humans are made in the image and likeness of God. Boethius' definition of a personal being applied to individual substances of a rational nature. Many Christian religions have embraced the definition and believe that beings with self-reflexive awareness are superior to other lifeforms. For many Christian religions, this means that humans are superior to animals. I agree with Tigress. Either you have things backwards or your form of Christianity differs from many other Christian religions.

No offence, but that is why Judaism is dead.

You must be kidding. You get bothered by people making negative comments about Christianity and then you make a statement like this? I'm Christian, so I don't like reading Christian-bashing posts either. But your statement isn't any less absurd or offensive than any of the previous posts in this thread.

If this thread devolves into holier-than-thou proselytization and religious insults, I'm closing the thread.

Also, this thread isn't on topic at all. I would have sent it to the Everyone forum by now, but I'm keeping it in Pre-Allo for the sole purpose of closing it should it turn even uglier. 🙄

This is ridiculous.

 

[freaker]

The thing that makes religious and science seemingly incompatible is that religion is based on absolute unquestioning faith in a text or what someone in a position of power says

I'm not sure your grasp on Christianity is that strong, especially regarding its practice. First, I've attended probably 6 or 7 churches on a regular basis (meaning at least 15 times or more). Each and every one of them, from the non-denominational to the Presbyterian to the Episcopalian to the Baptist to the Methodist to the Cathoic, has taught about moments of doubt and how questioning our faith is the only means of making progress. Not endless questioning, but taking time to re-evaluate.

That's why Bush can say there are WMDs in Iraq, and even if they are not, all the super-religious people who have been conditioned to obey unconditionally to authority figures will believe that statement, even though it is not true.

This is a tremendous stretch. I might agree that they tend to trust authority figures more, as they see them as being bound to a divine code of conduct. I'm not going to go along with the line that they're conditioned to obey all authority figures. It's really not been unusual for Christians to go to jail for the very fact that they are willing to put their beliefs ahead of authority figures (and it's happening all across the globe right now, e.g China, France, Saudi Arabia, Australia, Nigeria, etc...). There's a reason so many priests were executed in the Nazi's Concentration Camps, for instance.

As for Bush and WMDs, I'm still not convinced I've seen the slightest bit of evidence that he didn't think they existed. This recent leaked memo, for instance, revealed the Brits were afraid Saddam might use WMDs on Israel. They did say their capacities were weaker than those of Iran, N. Korea, and Libya. So maybe the case was hyped up. This is a complete aside, but it's getting to be tiring with all the evidence out there that suggests the contrary (and 2 commission reports).

I don't think your point on open-mindedness really applies, either. Reference the Pledge of the Allegiance, the war memorials in SD and SF. The "I wish I was born 500 years from now so I didn't have to be around religious people" garbage. Open-minded? Not really.

 

[tigress]

where is reincarnation biblical? that is a new one to me.

do you give sacrifices? 😕

um, no, no sacrifices.

I didn't say it was biblical, I said it's a part of Jewish belief. A very mainstream part, in fact. The idea is that a soul has to perfect itself. It goes through a number of incarnations in its journey to perfection. This is the source of the tradition of many great rabbis to honor people with Down Syndrome by standing up in their presence: they believe that this person's soul is so close to perfection that in this life it does not need much to complete its final tasks. (I'm not saying I necessarily believe that, just that it's not an uncommon belief.) Truthfully I'm not entirely sure what the source of this belief is.

 

[tigress]

if you mean reincarnation by saying the soul does not die, fine, i agree, that is very biblical, but saying your soul goes off to inhabit a frog, that is not biblical...

No, it goes to another human body.

edit: keep in mind that your concept of "biblical" and my concept of what's Torah is very different. For us, Torah incorporates both the 5 books of Moses plus the Mishnah, the oral tradition part of the Talmud.

 

[espbeliever]

um, no, no sacrifices.

I didn't say it was biblical, I said it's a part of Jewish belief. A very mainstream part, in fact. The idea is that a soul has to perfect itself. It goes through a number of incarnations in its journey to perfection. This is the source of the tradition of many great rabbis to honor people with Down Syndrome by standing up in their presence: they believe that this person's soul is so close to perfection that in this life it does not need much to complete its final tasks. (I'm not saying I necessarily believe that, just that it's not an uncommon belief.) Truthfully I'm not entirely sure what the source of this belief is.

honestly i have not heard of many sacrifices by Jewish ppl as of late. is that just because im deaf, or is that not practiced very much any more. and if it is not practiced, how are you forgiven of your sins?

 

[espbeliever]

No, it goes to another human body.

edit: keep in mind that your concept of "biblical" and my concept of what's Torah is very different. For us, Torah incorporates both the 5 books of Moses plus the Mishnah, the oral tradition part of the Talmud.

man, id really like to learn more about this. seems very radical to me. not at all fundamentalist.

 

[tigress]

honestly i have not heard of many sacrifices by Jewish ppl as of late. is that just because im deaf, or is that not practiced very much any more. and if it is not practiced, how are you forgiven of your sins?

Sacrifices only happened when there was a Temple in Jerusalem. No Temple, no sacrifices. Many people believe the Temple will be re-built when the messiah comes (whatever that means; I'm not really going to get into it). There is a debate over whether animal sacrifice will resume. Maimonides was famously of the opinion that animal sacrifice will never resume because humanity is beyond that. Many Jews agree. Many other Jews believe that sacrifice will resume. Most writings on this issue end by saying, "well, let's wait and see."

 

[freaker]

And yes, as I said, gehenna is not infinite torture. It's not quite clear what it is. The origin of the term is a place in Israel where human sacrifices took place, a certain valley outside Jerusalem. There are no real scriptual references to it as anything other than that, though there are later theological references.

Yes, it's (i.e. Gehenna) from the Mishnah, correct?

 

[criminallyinane]

um, no, no sacrifices.

I didn't say it was biblical, I said it's a part of Jewish belief. A very mainstream part, in fact. The idea is that a soul has to perfect itself. It goes through a number of incarnations in its journey to perfection. This is the source of the tradition of many great rabbis to honor people with Down Syndrome by standing up in their presence: they believe that this person's soul is so close to perfection that in this life it does not need much to complete its final tasks. (I'm not saying I necessarily believe that, just that it's not an uncommon belief.) Truthfully I'm not entirely sure what the source of this belief is.

[trivia] That is also the root of the Jewish belief that women are not called to serve as Rabbis because their souls are closer to perfection than men's souls (because of Adam and Eve, I guess.) Therefore, women not serving as Rabbis is not discrimination by the part of Judaism, but rather, allowing men to serve so they can perform t'shuva (good deeds) that are necessary to continue to improve on their souls. [/trivia]

 

[tigress]

man, id really like to learn more about this. seems very radical to me. not at all fundamentalist.

As I said, it is a mainstream Jewish belief, shared by all Orthodox (and many non-Orthodox) Jews. Well, I shouldn't say all, because it's not true that all Jews believe any one thing

 

[tigress]

Yes, it's (i.e. Gehenna) from the Mishnah, correct?

Truthfully I don't know the origins. I think the word is from the Mishnah. I'd have to ask my husband, as he knows more about these things than I do.

 

[espbeliever]

Sacrifices only happened when there was a Temple in Jerusalem. No Temple, no sacrifices. Many people believe the Temple will be re-built when the messiah comes (whatever that means; I'm not really going to get into it). There is a debate over whether animal sacrifice will resume. Maimonides was famously of the opinion that animal sacrifice will never resume because humanity is beyond that. Many Jews agree. Many other Jews believe that sacrifice will resume. Most writings on this issue end by saying, "well, let's wait and see."

i would like 99.999999% believe that it would resume since to rebuild a true temple, many things inside must be officially cleansed, and to do that, it can only be done with a special red heifer sacrificed.

further, recently there was declared by the sanhedrin that the temple would begin being rebuilt, and that the materials stored as of now are not considered sacred.

http://www.templeinstitute.org/sanhedrin-declaration.htm

 

[espbeliever]

[trivia] That is also the root of the Jewish belief that women are not called to serve as Rabbis because their souls are closer to perfection than men's souls (because of Adam and Eve, I guess.) Therefore, women not serving as Rabbis is not discrimination by the part of Judaism, but rather, allowing men to serve so they can perform t'shuva (good deeds) that are necessary to continue to improve on their souls. [/trivia]

hmm that makes no sense because the men are called as the spiritual LEADERS in the family vs women.

 

[tigress]

[trivia] That is also the root of the Jewish belief that women are not called to serve as Rabbis because their souls are closer to perfection than men's souls (because of Adam and Eve, I guess.) Therefore, women not serving as Rabbis is not discrimination by the part of Judaism, but rather, allowing men to serve so they can perform t'shuva (good deeds) that are necessary to continue to improve on their souls. [/trivia]

This is something I love to point out: according to the Biblical creation story, God created things with increasing perfection. Thus, the female, Eve, was created last, because she is more perfect 😀 . Actually, that's why we do fewer mitzvahs ("commandments") than men. Women can choose to do more, like pray three times a day, but men are required (what is required of women is not agreed upon, but probably prayer once a day). Of course, this isn't to say that Jewish history isn't full of sexism, because it is. Not more so than any other people's history, though.

 

[Singing Devil]

If this thread devolves into holier-than-thou proselytization and religious insults, I'm closing the thread.

This is ridiculous.

Phil, please close it. I feel ashamed on behalf of all the religious/non-religious folk who were trying to keep the dialogue tolerant and open-minded in order to understand the other view. It has deteriorated into petty name-calling and accusations of intolerance.

Why can't people listen to the other view than waiting for an opportunity to bash it? Better yet, why can't people understand that someone else is not going to agree with your dogma if your reasoning is based on the very same dogma (my earlier point about keeping things "philosophical").

Honestly... it's hard for me to believe that many of the people who posted are college-educated, because many of the comments don't show education or understanding of diverse cultures.

 

[CTG]

I believe in evolution. There is proof for it and it is sensible.

I probably haven't answered your question very well, but if you tell me why you believe in God or what proof you have for God's existence, I will explain why those theories don't hold for me as best as I can.

I also believe in evolution. I firmly believe that religion and science go hand in hand...all of my religious beliefs are complimentary, not in anyway contradictory, to what I know about science. And absolutely everything you said makes sense...I believe it myself. Yet, I choose to see it another way...the burden of proof doesn't really rely on anyone...it is what it is and nothing that any of us believes is going to change that. I simply asked you to prove it because no one ever has. And I disagree that God is a more complex explanation than no God b/c when you can't explain something, it's very easy to fall back and say, "There must be a God."
As far as my own proof, it ranges from simple things to the miraculous...Times when I was in a life-death situation but made a narrow escape (sounds dramatic but I can cite examples of you want), little prayers answered when it seemed as if the rest of the world was working against me, an immense feeling of peace and comfort and a holy presence during prayer...to give a more specific example: my brother had a ruptured disk in his spine and for nearly two years he tried many different treatment options and nothing worked...finally he had to get surgery...my mom, being very worried about such a dangerous operation (very close to his spine and all that) prayed at a religious gathering we have (by we i mean "our people" ) that his back would heal on its own. This was a week before the surgery was scheduled...he went in two days before for some final x-rays and all traces of the ruptured disk were gone, no one could explain it...I know that sounds like a bs story...it almost feels that way as i'm writing it, especially since i'm a really bad storyteller, but it happened....and i don't know how else to explain it. Now, you may say that all of my examples are of a personal nature and could thus be attributed to psychology or coincidence or even just be all in my head, but I choose to attribute them to a higher power, and I would hate to turn my back on a God who has created all those miracles for me. I guess it's a matter of perspective...but also think about this: I often just stare out into my backyard in wonder, watching the way the wind moves the trees and grass and flowers, and i think about how nicely everything in this world works together...in it's natural state it's self-sustaining, and i cannot fathom that there wasn't some higher being to design all of it. How could it just "be?" Now, just as you said your answers wouldn't be satisfactory for me, mine probably won't be satisfactory for you...and I guess this is where we can agree to disagree. But as long as we both agree to treat other human beings with dignity and lead our lives with morality, I would have no problem being friends with someone who has your beliefs...and without thinking that you're going to hell because who am I to decide that?

 

[criminallyinane]

hmm that makes no sense because the men are called as the spiritual LEADERS in the family vs women.

That's right, they need to lead spiritually to repent for the sin they are born with on their souls. It doesn't make them better than women. In fact, women are encouraged not to lead in order to allow the men to have more opportunities to correct the imperfection they are born with; it is a compliment to the women to be able to pray and be Jewish without needing to perform extra t'shuva to repent, the way men need to. I get the feeling you don't want to understand, you just want to argue, so that's cool. Refute away. Get red in the face. Go bananas!

 

[tigress]

i would like 99.999999% believe that it would resume since to rebuild a true temple, many things inside must be officially cleansed, and to do that, it can only be done with a special red heifer sacrificed.

further, recently there was declared by the sanhedrin that the temple would begin being rebuilt, and that the materials stored as of now are not considered sacred.

http://www.templeinstitute.org/sanhedrin-declaration.htm

lol, many people consider the Temple Institute people to be crazies. There is no modern Sanhedrin that has the support of mainstream Orthodox Jews. Like I said, some people do believe it will be rebuilt with sacrifices. These are some of those people.

I'm sure Maimonides (Rambam) had a solution to the purity of the temple, as he maintained there would be no sacrifice.

 

[espbeliever]

That's right, they need to lead spiritually to repent for the sin they are born with on their souls. It doesn't make them better than women. In fact, women are encouraged not to lead in order to allow the men to have more opportunities to correct the imperfection they are born with; it is a compliment to the women to be able to pray and be Jewish without needing to perform extra t'shuva to repent, the way men need to. I get the feeling you don't want to understand, you just want to argue, so that's cool. Refute away. Get red in the face. Go bananas!

no not at all. this concept is quite new to me. i shall research it a lot. very interesting. i thought in synagog, women were separated from men, and in the back too. and often not allowed to talk.

so,

1) not allowed to be spiritual leaders
2) no talking in synagog
3) segregated from men and put in back

these all lead me to the view that men are held in higher regard spiritually than men. if this is not the case, then that is quite interesting. i would like ot learn more.