T20 Schools and Holistic Review

[futuregyn]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Which T20 schools utilize a holistic review of applications? I know a lot of schools say they do, but which schools have actually shown that through their accepted students? I can think of Mayo and maybe Duke

 

[deleted972488]

All of them.

 

[LizzyM]

Holistic review does not mean just that they read your essays... it means they are taking into account your life experiences (work & activities), where you grew up (geographically and socioeconomically), where you went to school (again, geographic diversity), your family situation growing up, the type of electives you took, the languages you speak, etc.

 

[907914]

All of them.

To add to this, just because a school prioritizes stats first does not mean they don’t also review the rest of the app. A 518+ is only the 96th percentile, meaning there are (80,000 test takers *0.04) still 3,200 applicants with T20 stats applying for around 2400 T20 seats. Plenty of room for stellar applicants with stellar stats.

 

[efle]

In 90%+ of cases, we're kidding ourselves if we think our essay responses are going to have much impact on anything at all. You can tank your chances with bad ones, and there's the rare case of someone having an exceptional set of experiences to talk about...but for the vast majority it's something an interviewer might use to bring up a point of conversation and not much more.

 

[seanm028]

UCLA has interesting prompts but they leave little space for answers. You have to write haiku.

How strict are they on format? Could I use "crayon" with 1 syllable, or does it have to be 2?

 

[907914]

In 90%+ of cases, we're kidding ourselves if we think our essay responses are going to have much impact on anything at all. You can tank your chances with bad ones, and there's the rare case of someone having an exceptional set of experiences to talk about...but for the vast majority it's something an interviewer might use to bring up a point of conversation and not much more.

I think you are dead on. The only things I can think of that would be genuinely of interest/boost an app is specific anecdotes from stellar experiences - novel research during a PhD, leadership in the military, multicultural and teaching experience in the PeaceCorps, etc. 90%+ of applicants and matriculants are just pretty standard and none of their stories can really contribute to anything but conversation pieces, it would seem.

 

[Goro]

" holistic does not have the magic totem power that most pre-meds think it does.

 

[efle]

I think you are dead on. The only things I can think of that would be genuinely of interest/boost an app is specific anecdotes from stellar experiences - novel research during a PhD, leadership in the military, multicultural and teaching experience in the PeaceCorps, etc. 90%+ of applicants and matriculants are just pretty standard and none of their stories can really contribute to anything but conversation pieces, it would seem.

Yeah and most of that stuff is going to be present in the primary anyways, in the activities entries and/or personal statement.

The standard secondary essays about "why our school" or "what's unique about you" and so on? Those are going to be important for some people with very obvious important answers (e.g. my mom and dad are both on faculty) but for the standard person it's just honestly not gonna matter. Nobody is going to interview or admit you because of what you found on the school website or for doing a semester abroad.

 

[el_duderino]

" holistic does not have the magic totem power that most pre-meds think it does.

Indeed. Holistic means they look at everything in context. It doesn't mean your volunteer work is going to make up for your MCAT.

 

[907914]

people who have spend time doing interesting things after UG school

Even with many people beginning to take gap years, the vast majority of what students do in undergrad is fairly cookie cutter - continued research, become a scribe, become an MA, go on vacation and travel. Very rarely do gap year activities actually stand out.

the essays are a key source of information

Even so far as diversity of a class goes, the essays can help contextualize the application but we are not as unique as we come off. Save for things like Vandy where you have the opportunity to write a novel about yourself, there is very little room for you to make your background/upbringing stand out - particularly when only 14% of applicants are first gen, only 5-9% are LGBT, only 20% is any form of URM....The vast majority of applicants just simply don't stand out, even from a diversity standpoint.

It's really the only opportunity for an applicant to frame the information that Lizzie M cites above

Almost all of LizzyM's points can be taken directly off of the primary. The context provided by the secondary may help, but most of the time it would just frame the perception of the information elsewhere in the application as opposed to directly contribute to it. Unless you are one of the rare few who had all 15 activities jam-packed with little room for details as some of us have, then there is not much else you can add to who you are that hasn't already been mentioned in some form elsewhere.

Applicants should devote appropriate care to them

they most certainly should give the secondaries proper attention. Not because they will necessarily benefit the applicant, but they certainly can be detrimental.

 

[907914]

MemeLord, How many applications cycles have you been through?

Zilch, but I operate my opinions on the matter based on the experiences of others that I read across the various forums here and based on available admissions statistics. So I am producing an informed opinion with SDN bias and will likely form my own as I continue through my application cycle!

Although, my opinion is likely not to change as I am thankfully one of those high-stats, unique-ECs applicants who contributes to the predominantly pessimistic outlooks presented in these types of forums.

 

[efle]

Elfie, what is the basis for such an authoritative statement, "In 90%+ cases....."

It doesn't square with me. With the applicant pool at T20 schools shifting to folks with non-traditional backgrounds (people who have spend time doing interesting things after UG school) and with schools expressed interest in diversifying their classes in terms of talent and socio-economic backgrounds, the essays are a key source of information.

It's really the only opportunity for an applicant to frame the information that Lizzie M cites above. Applicants should devote appropriate care to them, imo. I think they often make a difference in who schools choose to interview.

I dunno if you've actually seen what the interview cohorts or class composition looks like at high ranking med schools, but from my experience, it's not a bunch of fascinating nontrad paths. It's a bunch of people like me, that had strong numbers and took a year or two off to do research. Occasionally something like one of the teaching/volunteering organizations or a tangentially related job like consulting in the healthcare sector. Several people with masters or even PhDs in related areas. "Real" nontrads that started a career doing something else and were late to realize they wanted to do medicine are few and far between at the most competitive schools. Building a competitive app for these places nowadays tends to requires a lot of advanced planning.

Maybe there are some institutions that really are "holistic" in the sense that SDN likes to believe is true. But from seeing how the application cycles went for me and all my premed friends and acquaintances, from meeting interviewees when I give tours, and from the people in my class and the classes above/below...

I think someone putting their hope into beautifully crafted and thoughtful secondary responses is setting themselves up for a lot of disappointment. To use some of your examples, if you want to interview at Penn or Hopkins or UChicago, it should be your LizzyM score and strong research and other ECs that you look at to gauge yourself, not your secondary essays.

 

[907914]

"Real" nontrads that started a career doing something else and were late to realize they wanted to do medicine are few and far between at the most competitive schools.

From my conversations with others, the only real non-trads at higher up schools are the ones who had a gap between high-school and university, not between university and application. In that sense, the experiences of a non-trad can still be present with the academic achievement and planning of the traditional route.

 

[efle]

You also don't have to just take my word on it. Check out the survey of adcoms:

https://aamc-orange.global.ssl.fastly.net/production/media/filer_public/7c/fb/7cfb5f43-f9cd-4a5a-bdad-36e735b5844a/mcatstudentselectionguide.pdf#page=12

Secondary responses are scored as medium importance, whereas all the usual suspects we talk about on SDN like GPA, MCAT, interview, letters of rec, or a prestigious undergrad get scored as highest.

 

[907914]

You also don't have to just take my word on it. Check out the survey of adcoms:

https://aamc-orange.global.ssl.fastly.net/production/media/filer_public/7c/fb/7cfb5f43-f9cd-4a5a-bdad-36e735b5844a/mcatstudentselectionguide.pdf#page=12

Secondary responses are scored as medium importance, whereas all the usual suspects we talk about on SDN like GPA, MCAT, interview, letters of rec, or a prestigious undergrad get scored as highest.

Any idea if similar statistics show how students perform based on age or SES status?

 

[Medic741]

Which T20 schools utilize a holistic review of applications? I know a lot of schools say they do, but which schools have actually shown that through their accepted students? I can think of Mayo and maybe Duke

It's holistic only for those who are stat rockstars.

 

[efle]

Any idea if similar statistics show how students perform based on age or SES status?

Never seen anything about age. SES data I've only seen for the MCAT, where lower SES scores lower

 

[907914]

Never seen anything about age. SES data I've only seen for the MCAT, where lower SES scores lower

I figured as much. Although, I do see the "FAP recipients" column is a solid 4 points below average, so low SES really does perform a lot poorer. I would wonder if we don't see non-trads at T20 types as often due to something similar? Like, are non-trads rare up top simply because they/we tend not to score as high on MCAT?

 

[Phoebus Apollo]

I will say that my responses to secondary questions guided a lot of my interviews.

In any case: it’s true.. Nothing can make up for subpar stats. But it never hurts to be interesting, and a good essay and a background worth discussing helps distinguish you from the sea of qualified applicants.

 

[Lucca]

Holistic review includes stats.

It’s pointless to try to divine what adcoms are looking for with any kind of specificity beyond what is perfectly obvious prima facie. For example, literally all of the “Top” programs where I thought I had the best chance relative to similarly competitive places on my list (for “holistic” reasons) rejected me pre interview. And the programs I ended up getting interviewed at / admitted I thought were completely out of my league because my MCAT was several points lower than the median. One “top” school behaved predictably based on my precycle assumptions.

Apply to the places you genuinely want to attend. Give it your best shot. Pray. Beyond that, just try to enjoy the ride.