Taking Advantage of P/F Curriculum

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You misunderstand.

Yes, there will be a minimum cut off below which you will fail and above which you will pass. Your transcript will show P or F.

However, your school will keep track of whether you got 71% or 95% on those exams and when it comes time to produce the MSPE for residency, they will use those scores (not the P/F) and rank you in comparison to your classmates. If you skimmed the P/F line, you will be ranked low. While Step 1 may be one of the primary factors in residency matching, class rank/AOA can be important as well.

And note that we haven't even begun to talk about my concern that you are approaching medical school with the idea that you only need to do well on Step 1 rather than develop a foundation of medical knowledge and learning skills.


I know for a fact that this is NOT true at every pass/fail institution.... we just had a discussion with administration concerning this, and our school is truly pass/fail. Students flipped when they heard that they wanted to start adding our first 2-yr performance/ranking to the MSPE, so they dropped it. However, we are ultimately ranked based on our grades in 3rd-4th yr, so there's that.
 
I know for a fact that this is NOT true at every pass/fail institution.... we just had a discussion with administration concerning this, and our school is truly pass/fail. Students flipped when they heard that they wanted to start adding our first 2-yr performance/ranking to the MSPE, so they dropped it. However, we are ultimately ranked based on our grades in 3rd-4th yr, so there's that.

<sigh> Yes there are exceptions; I don't recall saying this was true at every single last school.
 
I know for a fact that this is NOT true at every pass/fail institution.... we just had a discussion with administration concerning this, and our school is truly pass/fail. Students flipped when they heard that they wanted to start adding our first 2-yr performance/ranking to the MSPE, so they dropped it. However, we are ultimately ranked based on our grades in 3rd-4th yr, so there's that.
Yes, hence why on SDN the distinction is clearly made again and again, about a "true" P/F school vs. those that are not. The ones that are not tend to still stratify students based on exact averages, H/HP/P/MP/F (but internally). However, a "true" P/F school only does this for the first 2 years, so greater weight is then put on MS-3 clerkship grades in calculating class rank and maybe including Step 1 score for AOA.
 
We're on SDN, where everything is black and white and a hard and fast rule, don't you know. My advice to them: unclench...
Yes apparently I am going to have to start qualifying everything I say like "most", or "some" or "infrequently" or "occasionally" or "9 out of 10 times" (although some will still quibble about the definitions of such terms). 😛
 
Yes apparently I am going to have to start qualifying everything I say like "most", or "some" or "infrequently" or "occasionally" or "9 out of 10 times" (although some will still quibble about the definitions of such terms). 😛

9/10 members agree with this post.

Why don't we have a "mostly like" option? We should have that.
 
<sigh> Yes there are exceptions; I don't recall saying this was true at every single last school.

Not to mention the fact that the true P/F schools tend to be the higher-prestige ones and thus the students are more likely to know of if they're true P/F or internally ranked. This site is basically an opportunity for others to attempt to prove each other wrong though, so they're gonna jump all over 1/10.
 
Not to mention the fact that the true P/F schools tend to be the higher-prestige ones and thus the students are more likely to know of if they're true P/F or internally ranked. This site is basically an opportunity for others to attempt to prove each other wrong though, so they're gonna jump all over 1/10.
In general, the top-tier ranked medical schools don't need to differentiate students in the first 2 years, bc EVERYONE there is smart. These are people who not only accomplished high GPAs and MCAT scores AND accomplished stellar ECs that your average med student is not able to do. This group also has higher perfectionistic tendencies, neuroticism, etc. as well. It's splitting hairs to want to stratify at this stage, esp. since preclinical performance is not very useful in predicting clinical residency performance.

"True" P/F works well at those schools, but may not work as well at a low mid-tier or low-tier schools in which gaps in knowledge may go unaddressed (i.e. a person who never studies and barely passes every basic science course and now has to take Step 1), which then affects board passing rate/score average of the school. I think SDN is wonderful in this regard as students can sometimes can get tricked by med school administration labeling their grading as "pass/fail" when in actuality it's a form of H/HP/P/MP/F (which are essentially letter grades) or grades are internally kept throughout and then put on a Dean's letter.

Policies can change however all the time, for example, Yale used to also be P/F in the MS-3 year, and they no longer do this.
 
I still don't agree with you. Though I will reduce the strength of my statement. Learning in classes is important for the sake of step1.
Class grades are still not that important.

Yeah step 1 is only one day but tests 2 years of knowledge and is an objective standard that measures everybody. Class rank....pfft. I didn't give a PENIS about that. Actually I got mostly Cs and Bs, with 1 A. But I got 250s on step1. Couldn't be happier!! I actually liked to brag about all the straight A students who I beat on step1 at my school!! Woot!!! ~~~
Your trolling efforts need some work. At least make an effort at seeming believable.
 
Let me take this discussion in a different direction, away from talk about which details to learn, to talk about the methods of learning. It is true that a pass/fail curriculum means you are not beholden to the homemade slides and questions that your professors write, so you do not have to stress about the nitty gritty that separates the middle of the bell curve between 88 (high pass) from 90 (honors). That's nice.

The most important difference, in my opinion, between studying for class versus studying for boards and life is that the latter requires long-term retention. You can memorize slides in an intense few days before exams and do extremely well on your course exams. If you do not review that material, however, you will promptly forget it. For select high-yield material, you will have to relearn it again for your classes the next year, for boards, for shelf exams.

The most efficient way to develop long-term retention is through purposeful, spaced repetition of retrieval practice (e.g. Anki). Such a method requires an additional investment of time. You will be doing a little review of anatomy every day even though your anatomy class ended a month ago. You have limited time, so you must prioritize the material you learn. Only purposefully use spaced repetition for high yield material.

The freedom that a pass/fail system allows is that instead of learning 90%+ of a mix of important and unimportant details and promptly forgetting a mixed bag of a third of it by a few months out, you can spend just a little more time to learn the most important 70-80% and make sure you hold on to all of that for the long term. With spaced repetition systems, you control what you retain.

The question is, what do you choose to learn, and what do you choose to retain? You will develop an intuition for what is important over time. First Aid is an excellent starting point. It is a guide to content; it is not a primary learning source. Yes, you can and should "memorize First Aid", but reading First Aid should not and cannot be the fundamental basis of your learning. First Aid gives you structure and points out key facts. Watch a lecture or read a textbook or browse an article on UpToDate, all while cross-referencing First Aid to ensure you understand the basis for all the important facts. For those important facts, do flashcards and questions to solidify that understanding and move those memories from short-term to long-term storage.

This is the learning method of the future, but only a minority of current med students will appreciate the flexibility of P/F curricula through such a lens.

I would like to second this. My school has a true P/F for MS1, which I just finished. I have been using a self-created anki deck with first aid as I go through my classes. I spend about an extra 20 minutes per/day studying the cards plus the time it takes to make them and cross-reference. It is a bit time consuming, and it seems like I spent relatively more time studying than my classmates this year. I consistently scored around 1SD above the mean, but rarely 95+. I spent those extra hours building my anki deck and reviewing.

When I took my NBME final on the topics we covered I got one of the highest grades of my class (equivalent of 245 from the scale they gave us-without doing ANY questions, only having reviewed my anki deck). Granted none of us studied much, I am assuming. But in my opinion, this reviewing was the best use of my time I could hope for. I wasn't crazy about it, and sometimes I would let me cards pile up. But for me, learning something and retaining it is the way to go.

About the above comments on the memorizing facts that can't incorporate conceptual things, it is true. I didn't put much physiology in my deck, for example. Only some hormones and equations. So yes, that is one of the downsides. I guess those things you would just have to be reviewing in addition.

Overall I think to take advantage of the P/F it is still VERY important to do well, but not worry about those extra few questions and instead find some way to review as you go along with the extra time!
 
I would like to second this. My school has a true P/F for MS1, which I just finished. I have been using a self-created anki deck with first aid as I go through my classes. I spend about an extra 20 minutes per/day studying the cards plus the time it takes to make them and cross-reference. It is a bit time consuming, and it seems like I spent relatively more time studying than my classmates this year. I consistently scored around 1SD above the mean, but rarely 95+. I spent those extra hours building my anki deck and reviewing.

When I took my NBME final on the topics we covered I got one of the highest grades of my class (equivalent of 245 from the scale they gave us-without doing ANY questions, only having reviewed my anki deck). Granted none of us studied much, I am assuming. But in my opinion, this reviewing was the best use of my time I could hope for. I wasn't crazy about it, and sometimes I would let me cards pile up. But for me, learning something and retaining it is the way to go.

About the above comments on the memorizing facts that can't incorporate conceptual things, it is true. I didn't put much physiology in my deck, for example. Only some hormones and equations. So yes, that is one of the downsides. I guess those things you would just have to be reviewing in addition.

Overall I think to take advantage of the P/F it is still VERY important to do well, but not worry about those extra few questions and instead find some way to review as you go along with the extra time!
Nice that your school uses NBME questions on their exams. Are they shelf exams?
 
Nice that your school uses NBME questions on their exams. Are they shelf exams?

Well we have a few NBME exams, but we don't use them for all exams. I'm not 100% what shelf exams are? But from past context I'm going to say that no, they aren't, but if you can clarify I can tell you for sure.
 
So no, we didn't have those exams for each subject. Our school explained it to us as "a mix of questions on only the topics we had covered up to that point," which they buy from NBME. So I guess they can like pick and choose the topics from those areas, though.
 
Your trolling efforts need some work. At least make an effort at seeming believable.
I'm not a troll!!! ψ(`∇´)ψ
nothing I said in my post is untrue!
I simply had no respect for the crappy exams my school made as well as all the bs requirements they had to get As like turning in BS homework assignments on time. I only care about the all important step 1!!!
If the truth caused you sum butthurt well then I'm sorry! ( T_T)\(^-^ )
 
I'm not a troll!!! ψ(`∇´)ψ
nothing I said in my post is untrue!
I simply had no respect for the crappy exams my school made as well as all the bs requirements they had to get As like turning in BS homework assignments on time. I only care about the all important step 1!!!
If the truth caused you sum butthurt well then I'm sorry! ( T_T)\(^-^ )
166.gif
 
Hi Guys,

I'm in a true P/F curriculum as well (at Case actually). We've had classes for about a month now and I'm trying to use Anki/FA as a guiding principle(some MS2s recommended this to us). Could you guys critique my strategy? Heres what I've worked out so far:

1) Learn materials from PBL/Lectures
2) Use FA to identify boards relevant things from what I've learned.
3) Revisit materials, look for "weaknesses" in my lectures/notes (things that they don't cover well).
4)Use books to fill in gaps
5) Make Anki cards to solidify boards related things
6) Review until 2016

The cool thing about our curriculum is that there's two exams. A P/F "curricular" exam, and a (not for marks) NBME exam. I thought that this way, I could focus on doing well on the ungraded exam (and using it to see how well I'm doing boards wise), while still getting a solid pass on curricular material.
 
Hi Guys,

I'm in a true P/F curriculum as well (at Case actually). We've had classes for about a month now and I'm trying to use Anki/FA as a guiding principle(some MS2s recommended this to us). Could you guys critique my strategy? Heres what I've worked out so far:

1) Learn materials from PBL/Lectures
2) Use FA to identify boards relevant things from what I've learned.
3) Revisit materials, look for "weaknesses" in my lectures/notes (things that they don't cover well).
4)Use books to fill in gaps
5) Make Anki cards to solidify boards related things
6) Review until 2016

The cool thing about our curriculum is that there's two exams. A P/F "curricular" exam, and a (not for marks) NBME exam. I thought that this way, I could focus on doing well on the ungraded exam (and using it to see how well I'm doing boards wise), while still getting a solid pass on curricular material.

Why don't they just make the curricular material match the step 1 material? Seems like a waste of y'all's time to take two tests. Either way sounds good. That's pretty much what I did MS1 year. Except with just making slides that matched my curriculum for test purposes and then suspending the cards that were absent in First Aid for long term retention. I still read some of the textbooks to get an overview or conceptual understanding.
 
Hi Guys,

I'm in a true P/F curriculum as well (at Case actually). We've had classes for about a month now and I'm trying to use Anki/FA as a guiding principle(some MS2s recommended this to us). Could you guys critique my strategy? Heres what I've worked out so far:

1) Learn materials from PBL/Lectures
2) Use FA to identify boards relevant things from what I've learned.
3) Revisit materials, look for "weaknesses" in my lectures/notes (things that they don't cover well).
4)Use books to fill in gaps
5) Make Anki cards to solidify boards related things
6) Review until 2016

The cool thing about our curriculum is that there's two exams. A P/F "curricular" exam, and a (not for marks) NBME exam. I thought that this way, I could focus on doing well on the ungraded exam (and using it to see how well I'm doing boards wise), while still getting a solid pass on curricular material.
Use Qbanks - like USMLERx, etc. to test yourself. I'm guessing by books you mean board review books, not textbooks.
 
I'd advise you that your school will keep track of how well you do on those "nitty gritty details" and rank you against your classmates, releasing that information when you apply for residency. P/F does not mean you can just focus on Step 1.

Not necessarily. I go to a "true" pass/fail with no internal ranking. AOA is strictly based off of Step I, clerkship grades, and number of pubs/leadership.
 
That is crazy.

I guess that's the only metric that can encompass all of the information presented during the first two years (since we don't get grades or have honors). I actually like this system because if you do everything you should be doing in order to match really well (high step, mostly honors clerkships, and publications) you'll probably get AOA.
 
I guess that's the only metric that can encompass all of the information presented during the first two years (since we don't get grades or have honors). I actually like this system because if you do everything you should be doing in order to match really well (high step, mostly honors clerkships, and publications) you'll probably get AOA.
Those are very high metrics, and only 1/6th of the class can be nominated.
 
Why don't they just make the curricular material match the step 1 material? Seems like a waste of y'all's time to take two tests. Either way sounds good. That's pretty much what I did MS1 year. Except with just making slides that matched my curriculum for test purposes and then suspending the cards that were absent in First Aid for long term retention. I still read some of the textbooks to get an overview or conceptual understanding.

The lectures have been matching FA pretty well. It's just that the curricular exam is in short answer format.

What textbooks did you use, (esp anatomy and histopath
 
Use Qbanks - like USMLERx, etc. to test yourself. I'm guessing by books you mean board review books, not textbooks.

I was told to hold off on banks till later, I'm only a month in right now is ther a benefit to banks as long term material? I'm actually using textbooks seeing as I'm learning some of the material the first time, should I go straight to review books even for first pass?

Sorry if it's a lot of questions, I've just been kinda lost putting everything together...
 
I was told to hold off on banks till later, I'm only a month in right now is ther a benefit to banks as long term material? I'm actually using textbooks seeing as I'm learning some of the material the first time, should I go straight to review books even for first pass?

Sorry if it's a lot of questions, I've just been kinda lost putting everything together...
Well you go to a "true" P/F school so you can try different things out. USMLEWorld is probably the closest to the real thing that we have (besides the NBME self-assessments). That's probably better closer to your test in the months prior, not over 2 years.

USMLERx just gets you in the mode of doing questions, knowing minutiae, etc. I know some schools use preclinical NBME shelf exams. Key is to learn the information in the way it's supposed to be learned to answer USMLE Step 1 formatted questions, not the way your particular PhD professor decides to test it (since he/she could care less how you do on Step 1).

We didn't use textbooks - we had course packs/syllabi.
 
Well you go to a "true" P/F school so you can try different things out. USMLEWorld is probably the closest to the real thing that we have (besides the NBME self-assessments). That's probably better closer to your test in the months prior, not over 2 years.

USMLERx just gets you in the mode of doing questions, knowing minutiae, etc. I know some schools use preclinical NBME shelf exams. Key is to learn the information in the way it's supposed to be learned to answer USMLE Step 1 formatted questions, not the way your particular PhD professor decides to test it (since he/she could care less how you do on Step 1).

We didn't use textbooks - we had course packs/syllabi.


I'll look into getting usmlerx once we finish block 1. Thanks for your help, DV
 
Those are very high metrics, and only 1/6th of the class can be nominated.

That's true. I'm guessing the kids who get it are rock solid for the match though. I've heard of AOA being a "popularity contest" at some schools.
 
That's true. I'm guessing the kids who get it are rock solid for the match though. I've heard of AOA being a "popularity contest" at some schools.
Esp. at your school where the competition can be quite steep. It depends on the school how exactly AOA nominations are tabulated. There are schools in which the class as a whole can have some say in whose nominated. Probably to rule out the people who go all out and are successful with respect to grades, but lacking in other qualities (i.e. getting along with others, team player, etc.), although sometimes that's just lip service. Upperclassmen tend to know better how much the "soft" stuff impacts AOA nomination vs. just grades on a transcript.
 
I would like to second this. My school has a true P/F for MS1, which I just finished. I have been using a self-created anki deck with first aid as I go through my classes. I spend about an extra 20 minutes per/day studying the cards plus the time it takes to make them and cross-reference. It is a bit time consuming, and it seems like I spent relatively more time studying than my classmates this year. I consistently scored around 1SD above the mean, but rarely 95+. I spent those extra hours building my anki deck and reviewing.

When I took my NBME final on the topics we covered I got one of the highest grades of my class (equivalent of 245 from the scale they gave us-without doing ANY questions, only having reviewed my anki deck). Granted none of us studied much, I am assuming. But in my opinion, this reviewing was the best use of my time I could hope for. I wasn't crazy about it, and sometimes I would let me cards pile up. But for me, learning something and retaining it is the way to go.

About the above comments on the memorizing facts that can't incorporate conceptual things, it is true. I didn't put much physiology in my deck, for example. Only some hormones and equations. So yes, that is one of the downsides. I guess those things you would just have to be reviewing in addition.

Overall I think to take advantage of the P/F it is still VERY important to do well, but not worry about those extra few questions and instead find some way to review as you go along with the extra time!
Please excuse my ignorance, but what are anki cards?
 
The lectures have been matching FA pretty well. It's just that the curricular exam is in short answer format.

What textbooks did you use, (esp anatomy and histopath

Our curriculum is probably different from yours but I used mostly the recommended books that I could find online. Grant's Atlas, Acland videos, Essential clinical anatomy. Ross Histology for Histology. We're just starting pathology so I'm not comfortable making recommendations regarding that.
 
Our curriculum is probably different from yours but I used mostly the recommended books that I could find online. Grant's Atlas, Acland videos, Essential clinical anatomy. Ross Histology for Histology. We're just starting pathology so I'm not comfortable making recommendations regarding that.
That's bc there usually is only one textbook for that course across the nation - Robbins.
 
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