Talking about religion

[HBSlim]

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do you god believing people hate/strongly dislike athiests? like if i told you i was athiest would that creep you out? and if it does, why?

Not at all. To tell you the truth the best, and most entertaining, discussions I've ever had about religion have been with a good friend of mine who is an atheist.

how taboo do you think it is though? you think an athiest would ever be voted in to public office in america?

Definitely an interesting question. Depends on what level you're talking about. In terms of a presidential candidate though, I'm not sure it's something we'll see in the near future without a drastic change in the political landscape.

 

[DoC352]

I don't see a problem writing an essay on religion. I wrote one very similar to yours (although, with a different ending) for one of my Duke essays, and it got me my first (and so far, only) med school interview.

My guess (and/or hope) is that adcoms will be willing to accept people of any religion. If they can't be impartial about something like religion (which they are legally required to be impartial about, anyways) then they really shouldn't be sitting on an admissions committee. That doesn't mean there aren't necessarily adcoms out there that wouldn't reject you because you wrote about your faith, but I doubt you really want to go to a school that is going to reject you based on faith, anyways...

You want the adcoms to see you for who you are. If you think the most accurate picture you can paint of yourself in regards to the topic of the prompt is from describing this experience, then you should absolutely write about it. But be tasteful in how you write - if you come off even slightly as trying to force your beliefs on the reader, you are likely to get a negative reaction, regardless of the reader's faith. After all doctors can have any religious beliefs they want, but they must always be tolerant of the their patients' and colleagues' beliefs, even when they are different than their own.

 

[Musclemass]

Definitely an interesting question. Depends on what level you're talking about. In terms of a presidential candidate though, I'm not sure it's something we'll see in the near future without a drastic change in the political landscape.

For elected presidents, it's rather likely we've already had several.

 

[mountainhare]

I don't see a problem writing an essay on religion. I wrote one very similar to yours (although, with a different ending) for one of my Duke essays, and it got me my first (and so far, only) med school interview.

My guess (and/or hope) is that adcoms will be willing to accept people of any religion. If they can't be impartial about something like religion (which they are legally required to be impartial about, anyways) then they really shouldn't be sitting on an admissions committee. That doesn't mean there aren't necessarily adcoms out there that wouldn't reject you because you wrote about your faith, but I doubt you really want to go to a school that is going to reject you based on faith, anyways...

You want the adcoms to see you for who you are. If you think the most accurate picture you can paint of yourself in regards to the topic of the prompt is from describing this experience, then you should absolutely write about it. But be tasteful in how you write - if you come off even slightly as trying to force your beliefs on the reader, you are likely to get a negative reaction, regardless of the reader's faith. After all doctors can have any religious beliefs they want, but they must always be tolerant of the their patients' and colleagues' beliefs, even when they are different than their own.

I have to respectfully disagree with the points you make here. "You want the adcoms to see you for who you are" is an attractive cliche that I used to believe in as well, but it's simply not true. What you want is for the adcoms to accept you into med school. Period. Adcoms are fallible individuals; many of them are not people that you or I would ever want to spend a prolonged amount of time hanging out with. Your goal as an applicant should *not* be to give them the full picture of who you are: all your flaws, idiosyncrasies, lovable quirks, etc. Your goal should be to get them to accept you into med school. If presenting yourself as a more conventional/straight-laced/bland person than you are is what it takes, then fine. Applying to med school is a process that should be approached pragmatically.

I also want to address the statement "I doubt you really want to go to a school that is going to reject you based on faith, anyways..." An applicant should never automatically reject a med school just because there are one or two bigots or unpleasant people on the adcom there. A med-school community comprises thousands of people, and the people who are reading your application are not necessarily representative of all that the med school has to offer. Just my two cents.

 

[HBSlim]

For elected presidents, it's rather likely we've already had several.

Good point. I guess I was thinking of it in terms of someone being as open about their atheism as some people are about their religion. I could be totally off base though.

 

[TheFogHat]

I talked about my faith in my app and my essays, because it is the most important thing in my life... it worked out for me! 🙂

 

[Bayonetwork]

how taboo do you think it is though? you think an athiest would ever be voted in to public office in america?

Yes...

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

I have to respectfully disagree with the points you make here. "You want the adcoms to see you for who you are" is an attractive cliche that I used to believe in as well, but it's simply not true. What you want is for the adcoms to accept you into med school. Period. Adcoms are fallible individuals; many of them are not people that you or I would ever want to spend a prolonged amount of time hanging out with. Your goal as an applicant should *not* be to give them the full picture of who you are: all your flaws, idiosyncrasies, lovable quirks, etc. Your goal should be to get them to accept you into med school. If presenting yourself as a more conventional/straight-laced/bland person than you are is what it takes, then fine. Applying to med school is a process that should be approached pragmatically.

I also want to address the statement "I doubt you really want to go to a school that is going to reject you based on faith, anyways..." An applicant should never automatically reject a med school just because there are one or two bigots or unpleasant people on the adcom there. A med-school community comprises thousands of people, and the people who are reading your application are not necessarily representative of all that the med school has to offer. Just my two cents.

Best thing written in this thread. I completely agree with this line. 👍

 

[SarahBellum1]

After taking everyone's posts into consideration, I think it would be fine answering the question that I brought up in the first post with something about religion. (I wouldn't write an entire essay about it, though, I think.) I realize that we are basically advertising/tailoring the portrayal of ourselves for the adcomms for the sole purpose of getting into medschool, so we should be as general/moderate? as possible. However, my religion is a large part of who I am, has some sort of influence on most of my moral judgment and character, and has shaped me to be who I am today. When answering the question "What is something difficult you have faced in your life?," I would not answer by "preaching" or professing my faith in any way to the interviewer. As mentioned in an earlier post, I believe that religion is very personal and should be held private most of the time. I would simply state that my struggle just so happens to be one involving religion--I wouldn't even mention what religion I affiliate with (though the interviewer would probably be able to figure it out). I have no intent on basing my entire interview/application on my religion, and won't even bring it up otherwise, unless specifically prompted to do so. As long as I respond in a respectful way without proclaiming my specific beliefs and appropriately explain the results of this struggle (open to new ideas, accepting of all types of people with differing beliefs, etc), then I think that's okay.

I see nothing wrong with that.

 

[Musclemass]

I see nothing wrong with that.

Mountainhare is a resident, please re-read his/her advice. Be as open-minded about this sentiment as you would like people to be open-minded about your beliefs.

Do what you like, good luck.

 

[SarahBellum1]

Mountainhare is a resident, please re-read his/her advice. Be as open-minded about this sentiment as you would like people to be open-minded about your beliefs.

Do what you like, good luck.

I understand where Mountainhare is coming from. I know I need to be "pragmatic" when applying/interviewing for med school. But I still think that a 2 minute +/- answer to one question that isn't actually talking about specifics of religion, just involving religion in a general sense (not sure if that made sense?) wouldn't hurt, whether or not the interviewer is religious. ??? Is that really so bad?

 

[fish89]

I talk all the time about my faith with people I hang with, in lab, in class, with my science nerd buddies and with my artsy friends... and my conversations are always without fail very positive on both sides... I find that conversations about faith can be very enjoyable and positive if you keep to a few things.

1. Never come off as prostleytizing or give the impression that you think you know more than or are more right than anyone else. People don't appreciate preaching, prostletyizing, arguing, or being lectured at, and seeming so will only get in the way of your message. If you come off as any of these 4 things then people will assume you are cocky (you seem to assume you know more than/are smarter than them), unyielding, stubborn, narrow minded... etc. So just keep an 'open' posture - I like to share from my experiences ("this is how my faith touched me, ... that's just me... but I feel like it's really made a big difference in my life..." from the point of view of "it's just something I care about, and that's why I'm talking with you, because we're friends and friends talk about random topics of personal interest". That way there's no defensiveness or weird awkwardness, you're just getting to know the other person)

2. Show, don't tell. This is key. Everyone has read that Jesus did this, or Moses did that, or buddha is... and everyone comes into a faith conversation with their own preconceived opinions of what YOU believe when in fact usually they have no idea what YOU believe or why faith is personal to YOU. If you can show through YOUR experience why god means something to YOU then the focus is not on the person's XYZ assumptions about your belief, but about the specific story of how god moved YOU. For example I'm a Christian but grew up atheist. So when I'm talking with an atheist, I kind of have an idea of the arguments/ prejudices they might have (of course it's different for everyone), and if I started blabbing on about how the Bible says this and says that, it starts sounding preachy, boring, and non-exciting, and they start reading into what I say everything they think negative about Christianity, etc. But if I start talking about my EXPERIENCES with the emphasis on SHOWING not telling how faith has changed my life, then it's like, oh, whoa, she really has a story to tell, maybe she's not crazy, maybe this thing (as weird as it seems) really did do something to her ... and you should emphasize that perspective in your essays.

It should be from the perspective of "let me tell you a story about this thing (it just happens to be religion) that affected me..." not "let me tell you a story about how religion is awesome and changed me."

We live in a postmodern pluralistic society, and I think our culture (at least our generation) values A) openness B) acceptance C) experiences. People in general (my friends at least) don't want long complicated arguments about proof, people care about experiences, valuing the human being and the person. That's why celebrities have blogs and twitters and facebook pages - the common person wants to know about the PERSON behind the facade. It's the same with faith - people in general won't care whether youre a liberal or conservative or green or yellow they want to know YOU. If you're nice (loving, accepting), they will be open to hearing your message. As long as you keep the openness and acceptance I think that things will be ok, just don't speak to people's defneses. To be convincing in today's society, we must be personal, not merely pragmatic or dogmatic. And it's the same in your essay. Be personal, not dogmatic. Be relatable to a non-believing audience.

Let me illustrate from an example.. let's take abortion (since this is so commonly a debate conflating many opinions with different values). Ironically, both sides to the abortion debate share one thing in common: they value the individual, and they value well-being and health. The pro-abortion people think that abortion is better for life/well-being/health, and the anti-abortion people think abortion worse for life/well-being/health. Any conversation involving opposing views and opinions often revolves around a common interest. (as a disclaimer I'm not trying to bring up a debate on abortion, just using an illustration of how opposing sides often have a common goal, so please don't bring this up in further discussion).

Now when I talk about faith with a non-believer, we both have many commonalities. We value acceptance, personal experiences, etc. With your essays, there are a few things the scientific culture values and you should relate to as well. I.e. objectivity, analysis, and knowledge. Show in your essay how you used objectivity, analysis, and knowledge to come to decisions about something as complex and nuanced as your faith. Be perspicacious, analytical, critical.

The tone of your essay shouldn't come off as, "so like, I've always liked FAITH and faith this and faith that and church blah blah... science was against it, blahblah, I was stressed, but I'm back at faith again." Thats dumb. Your essay should more be along the lines of, "I've always been a critical and analytical person, (with an emphasis on this), and increased examination and deep thinking caused me to come to some essential questions about fundamental issues that were deep to me and my cultural traditions. [address the questions and how you resolved them]" mostly you have to convince your reader that you are just as analytical, and even more so, after this critical thinking about your faith, and that your knowledge has led you here. If you come off as naive or ignorant, it's not going to fly. But if you can (going back to the above) show, not tell how your personal experiences have led you to be analytical, sensitive, and deeply critical, then I think you'll be fine.

In the bigger picture, it's about relating to another culture's values, and perspectives, and showing how you are relevant to and agree with many of their values and opinions. Think New York Times - they talk about lots of controversial issues from a liberal standpoint, its not necessarily bad to talk about controversial topics, as long as you do it right... our culture isn't anti-controversy, it's anti-preaching, anti-ignorance, anti-closedmindedness.

If you want any personal feedback, feel free to PM me =]

 

[Bayonetwork]

Nice post Fish...thats a good example of how to pragmatically approach revealing your faith. You dont want to fall in the all too common approach of tailoring your application to something less than 100% of who you are. A lot of applicants get into the habit of checking all the things they need to do off like pre-reqs (community service, healthcare experience, shadowing, etc) and never use that time to consider exactly how those experiences prove/disprove their passion/reasons for pursuing a healthcare profession.

The essence of faith is that you believe 100% of the doors that open for you and the med school you get accepted to is 100% ordained by God. Its not a lottery, He puts you in 100% of the places He wants you.

That said, do not be afraid to talk about your faith, after all that is what faith is all about, if you dont reveal it, then where is it?

However, be very sensitive to how you approach it as it is a hot topic and the last thing you want to do is come off as close minded and preachy.

 

[Musclemass]

We live in a postmodern pluralistic society, and I think our culture (at least our generation) values A) openness B) acceptance C) experiences. People in general (my friends at least) don't want long complicated arguments about proof, people care about experiences, valuing the human being and the person. That's why celebrities have blogs and twitters and facebook pages - the common person wants to know about the PERSON behind the facade. It's the same with faith - people in general won't care whether youre a liberal or conservative or green or yellow they want to know YOU. If you're nice (loving, accepting), they will be open to hearing your message. As long as you keep the openness and acceptance I think that things will be ok, just don't speak to people's defneses. To be convincing in today's society, we must be personal, not merely pragmatic or dogmatic. And it's the same in your essay. Be personal, not dogmatic. Be relatable to a non-believing audience.

Let me illustrate from an example.. let's take abortion (since this is so commonly a debate conflating many opinions with different values).

An abortion is a medical procedure, not a debate. Do you also debate appendectomies?

It becomes a debate when one group seeks to impose its views on others. Religious zealotry of any flavor is dangerous and has no public place in the pluralistic society that you acknowledge exists today. What people do in private behind closed doors is their own business, and that's where extreme views should stay.

 

[Musclemass]

if you dont reveal it, then where is it?

It's personal and private, which is where it belongs. As I said in the previous post.

 

[NickNaylor]

Oh look. Another thread that debates religion and science. It's oh so tempting to jump in...