Talking about surgery in interviews

[CitizenRunner]

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If I plan on going into immunology for my PhD to focus on transplant immunology, is it wrong to mention at interviews I want to go into surgery and work in an academic center post-residency/fellowship?

Also, I'd like to stay in the Midwest. Any personal knowledge of programs open to MD/PhD graduates going into surgery? (I really like Michigan's program, any ideas?)

Thanks!

 

[Neuronix]

MD/PhD programs tend to be biased against those interested in surgery as not being dedicated to research. It could hurt your application. My advice: say you're not sure about specialty, but you like immuno and maybe rheum. You're not lying because you may (and likely will) change your mind down the line. From there, you can become whatever specialty you want from any program.

 

[K31]

As Neuronix said, most (although not all) programs are biased against students who want to pursue a career in surgery because it is so difficult to be a successful surgeon and run your own lab. There seems to be less of a bias against those who want to go into surgical specialties (ophtho, ENT, ortho, etc) rather than general surgery.

Also check out the match list threads--there are some programs that regularly send graduates into surgical residencies. That's probably the best way to determine which programs are open to their graduates going into surgery.

 

[CitizenRunner]

As Neuronix said, most (although not all) programs are biased against students who want to pursue a career in surgery because it is so difficult to be a successful surgeon and run your own lab. There seems to be less of a bias against those who want to go into surgical subspecialties (ophtho, ENT, ortho, etc) rather than general surgery.

thanks for the advice. I'm think (I know may change) of doing something with immunology and transplant. I've been able to shadow some CT surgeons (both academic and private practice) and really liked it. I currently do research in cardiac developmental biology, and would consider something such as tissue engineering, but most of that seems to be in BME departments, which I am not an engineer and don't really know how many programs accept non-BME majors into BME PhDs. So would CT count as a surgical subspecialty? I want to be board certified in general surgery as well so that I can teach medical students who are in their surgical rotation and coordinate something like that. I've always wanted to teach in some capacity.

 

[K31]

So would CT count as a surgical subspecialty?

I failed to make a distinction between surgical specialties and surgical subspecialties in my previous post (I'll go back and correct).

Surgical specialties are those like ortho and ENT that have their own residencies. They tend to be more flexible in terms of allowing time for research once you are faculty--for example I know a new MD/PhD faculty member in ophtho who only does surgery one day a week and only sees the group's new patients in clinic. The rest of the time he is working on getting his lab off the ground.

Fields like cardiothoracic surgery, transplant surgery, and pediatric surgery are subspecialties of general surgery--you do a fellowship after GS residency. If anything they are even less amenable to doing research from a time standpoint than general surgery. There are fewer of the subspecialists around so those that are need to work harder to cover the workload.

 

[Neuronix]

That's probably the best way to determine which programs are open to their graduates going into surgery.

I disagree. Some students will pick surgery regardless. That doesn't mean the program is happy with it, but rather, the program can't really do anything to stop it.

 

[Choculitis]

I'm planning on talking about my desire to go into surgery (probably plastic) in my essays. Hopefully, the way I outline my career plan in the MD/PhD essay will convince them that I can balance research and surgery and that I need both degrees. If some programs think I'd be better as MD only, then hopefully I'll get routed to the MD-only admissions, which wouldn't be the end of the world.

 

[justgo]

I really respect Choculitus's perspective. I think you must be as honest as possible in your essays/interviews because you should be entering the program that is the best fit for you.....and if MD/PhD ain't it....it ain't it.

There are a lot of folks who don't really THINK about how all the pieces of their puzzle fit together and end up 1) Being miserable, 2) Not wishing to accept the reality of their specialty/research and 3) Making people around them miserable as well......when they might have just done better to not go for "prestige" over the correct fit (this is why that thread about the "most prestigious" program is ridiculous! There are a lot of prestigious things in a lot of different fields).

The anecdote comes to mind of an MD/PhD student who worked in one of my labs who had a pretty terrible run at his/her PhD, barely finished, basically had to paste random things together for their thesis because he/she had been silly enough and sloppy enough to do a PhD in infectious disease immunology (and do it badly) when what his/her goal throughout training was to be a general surgeon....which he/she ended up not doing because his/her board scores were pretty mediocre and he/she didn't have corollary research or stellar clinicals to bring those up.....

Really honesty is the best policy. A good bit of soul searching about what you really really really want to do, and then honesty in interviews/apps about that is probably better than trying to say what committees want to hear. If you really do want transplant surgery, maybe the MD-only program is the best for you....who knows. Plus, there is always that discussion about hateful people who take spots in MD/PhD programs without a true intention to do research....feelings change, I understand, but I feel like one should set the burden of proof that this is their path pretty high for themselves before they start walking down it.

 

[Neuronix]

If some programs think I'd be better as MD only, then hopefully I'll get routed to the MD-only admissions, which wouldn't be the end of the world.

Wishful thinking. But some people do state on their applications they wish to be a surgeon MD/PhD. I did. There are some out there who are surgeon physician-scientists. But many change their minds, like I did.

 

[Highlander]

Is it ok to talk about specialities such as anesthesiology or psychiatry in interviews? I'd like to do something neuroscience related, although I am not exactly sure what yet. Since each of those specialities, to me at least, seem like you can work few either a few or many patients, leaving time for research and for running a lab, I don't see much of an issue. However, I thought I'd ask prior to putting anything in an essay or talking in an interview.

 

[tortuga87]

Yes, I agree that ppl will benefit from soul searching. But, you should also realize that you dont have a lot of experience yet, so you may be soul searching based off of erroneous info! Maybe you will prove everyone wrong and eventually become a surgeon-scientist. But, more often than not, people change... and they change quite a bit. At this point, you should know you like medicine and research, and hope to integrate the two.

I think you should state that you have thought about the future and looked into _____, but are keeping an open-mind. I wouldn't state anything about what you want to specialize in with the conviction of senior med student writing his residency app. Maybe you will like something else. But, then again, I dont go to Harvard.

Many people will ask you what specialties you are interested in during the interview. Again, say you've looked into these because blah blah blah (insert soul searching answers here), but are also open to other experiences during med school - the reason not being because you are lying to get in, but because (1) you know you dont have enough info to make a solid judgment and, closely related, (2) you know how ppl can change based off of their med school experiences.

 

[Choculitis]

Wishful thinking. But some people do state on their applications they wish to be a surgeon MD/PhD. I did. There are some out there who are surgeon physician-scientists. But many change their minds, like I did.

So do you think it will it hurt my chances significantly to say in my essays that right now I'm interested in surgery, but also acknowledge that this could change? For one thing, I'm interested in plastic surgery, in part because I think it's more flexible in terms of hours than neuro, cardiac, etc. I also think I explain pretty well in the MD/PhD essay how I plan to integrate my clinical work with a research lab. I was thinking that a well reasoned explanation of my future plans as a surgeon-scientist could actually help me get into a top school by setting me apart from most other candidates.

Also, are you saying that if you apply MD/PhD you won't get serious consideration for MD-only? From another thread it looked like many of my top schools (Harvard, UCSF, Wash U among others) give full consideration to MD/PhD rejects for MD only.

 

[Neuronix]

So do you think it will it hurt my chances significantly to say in my essays that right now I'm interested in surgery, but also acknowledge that this could change?

You can do what you want. As an advisor, I would tell you not to do so. First because I think you're making assumptions about your career ideas that aren't true based on your (expected) lack of experiecne. Second, I do think it may hurt your chances. Third, I think there's a strong chance of you changing your mind.

Stating a definite career goal now is not required, won't help you, and may in fact hurt you, so there is absolutely no reason to do so.

For one thing, I'm interested in plastic surgery, in part because I think it's more flexible in terms of hours than neuro, cardiac, etc.

I do not see at all how this is true. Academic plastic surgeons have heavy call loads for accident-related issues as well as others. You are not going to go do boob jobs in private practice half time and do research half time for a lot of reasons we can go into if you really think that's feasible.

I was thinking that a well reasoned explanation of my future plans as a surgeon-scientist could actually help me get into a top school by setting me apart from most other candidates.

No. This is not to mention that plastic surgery programs don't really care that you have a PhD and don't expect you to do serious research, but that's a discussion for elsewhere. You better do very well in medical school if you plan to match plastics.

Also, are you saying that if you apply MD/PhD you won't get serious consideration for MD-only?

At some places you will, certainly. I wouldn't rely on that.

 

[Choculitis]

First off, thanks for the advice. I'll strongly consider getting rid of the references to surgery in my essays.

I do not see at all how this is true. Academic plastic surgeons have heavy call loads for accident-related issues as well as others. You are not going to go do boob jobs in private practice half time and do research half time for a lot of reasons we can go into if you really think that's feasible.

My thinking was to do tissue engineering research, which should work very well with reconstructive plastic surgery for burns, cancer, etc. A number of plastic surgery departments have labs in this area. Given that these types of conditions aren't acutely life threatening (compared to, say, a stroke victim who will die or be paralyzed if he doesn't get immediate care) wouldn't that mean that I'd have more control over my schedule?

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Choculitis: do not say surgery and please don't say plastic surgery. For an internist,a pediatrician, a neurologist, or a pathologist - most of the people who run these MD/PhD programs - "plastic surgery" screams $$$$$$ and boob jobs. As does dermatology, to a lesser degree. You don't want the program thinking you are applying MD/PhD to strengthen your residency application or have a "free ride" in med school, only to end up doing tummy tucks and chin implants.

 

[Choculitis]

Well it looks like you guys were right about this. I stuck with talking about surgery and so far (with a 42R and 3.97 cGPA) have been rejected by 7/15 MSTP programs I applied to without an interview (Cornell, WUSTL, Duke, UCSD, U Washington, Stanford, UCSF) and one after the the interview (Hopkins). Who knows how much of this was because of the surgery talk versus something else I did wrong. A student at Hopkins told me that some schools (e.g. Penn) are very strongly biased against surgery, to the point where they won't even consider you, no matter how good you are. At the same time, I didn't even get an MD interview at Duke and Cornell, so there must be something else going on.

 

[SBR249]

Given what I've heard from the Penn directors about how much emphasis they put on your stated career goals when assessing fit, I'm not surprised by what you've been told. They seem to really want a certain type of people with a certain type of career path in mind.

As for others, I can only comment on Duke (my alma mater) in that tissue engineering is probably not the strongest area for their BME program. While I know a few PIs in that field at Duke, Wake Forest is a lot stronger in regenerative medicine than Duke. Hell, Duke doesn't even have a burn center, the nearest one is over in Chapel Hill at UNC.

So maybe you weren't broad enough in your essays and gave the impression that you wouldn't really be good fits at those programs. Who knows. Hope you hear better news soon though.

 

[Choculitis]

Given what I've heard from the Penn directors about how much emphasis they put on your stated career goals when assessing fit, I'm not surprised by what you've been told. They seem to really want a certain type of people with a certain type of career path in mind.

As for others, I can only comment on Duke (my alma mater) in that tissue engineering is probably not the strongest area for their BME program. While I know a few PIs in that field at Duke, Wake Forest is a lot stronger in regenerative medicine than Duke. Hell, Duke doesn't even have a burn center, the nearest one is over in Chapel Hill at UNC.

So maybe you weren't broad enough in your essays and gave the impression that you wouldn't really be good fits at those programs. Who knows. Hope you hear better news soon though.

That's really interesting about Duke...I wrote about tissue engineering in the Personal Statement, so maybe that had something to do with it. I figured that giving a specific and fairly atypical career direction (surgery + BME) would make me stand out, but I guess I may have just given them a reason to reject me...

Apparently the Pen director said something along the lines of "I don't care if you have a 45 MCAT, publications in Nature, and help African babies in your spare time...if you want to do surgery, you're not getting in" haha. It's a good thing I didn't apply MSTP there, but I still got the dreaded "we've looked at your application and not offered an interview" update. The student told me that Wash U probably has a similar bias, which makes sense to me, given that I got an MD interview there but no MSTP.

 

[QofQuimica]

It looks to me like one major mistake you made was not applying broadly enough. Your stats are rock-star stellar, but so are a lot of other people's. You didn't tell us much about your research background, but if your research experience is on the average side, then you aren't going to stand out in a crowd of people with stats on par with yours and better reseach credentials. If you do have to reapply this summer, I recommend selecting a broader range of schools. No matter how stellar your stats are, you can't rely on stats alone to get you into med school.

Best of luck to you--I hope one of your other schools comes through.

 

[chronicidal]

Well it looks like you guys were right about this. I stuck with talking about surgery and so far (with a 42R and 3.97 cGPA) have been rejected by 7/15 MSTP programs I applied to without an interview (Cornell, WUSTL, Duke, UCSD, U Washington, Stanford, UCSF) and one after the the interview (Hopkins). Who knows how much of this was because of the surgery talk versus something else I did wrong. A student at Hopkins told me that some schools (e.g. Penn) are very strongly biased against surgery, to the point where they won't even consider you, no matter how good you are. At the same time, I didn't even get an MD interview at Duke and Cornell, so there must be something else going on.

yeah give us some more insight on why you were summarily rejected at so many places.

 

[Choculitis]

yeah give us some more insight on why you were summarily rejected at so many places.

Haha, I really wish I knew. I have a few ideas though...

In response to QofQuimica, my research experience is as follows:
- 1 summer at the University of Toronto, Department of Neurosurgery
- 2 summers at the University of Pennsylvania, Department of Bioengineering
- 1 semester of volunteering with a phys chem prof at my university
- 4th year thesis project this year
- unfortunately no publications, but a I've done a poster, powerpoint, and paper for the research programs that funded me

My AMCAS ECs are (* = most significant):
- *research at Penn
- research at Toronto
- research at my school
- shadowing a radiologist
- *shadowing a general surgeon
- fraternity executive
- *brazilian jiu jitsu
- jazz and classical guitar
- student club to fight homophobia on campus
- sea turtle conservation in Costa Rica
- NSERC research grants
- Dean's list
- large admission scholarship

I got reference letters from the first 3 profs. The prof at my school told me that his was very strong; I also took a class with him in 2nd year and got the highest mark (97%). I haven't seen the other two, but I'm pretty sure that my prof at Penn though very highly of me and wrote a great letter. I didn't have a huge amount of contact with the PI at Toronto (he's a prominent neurosurgeon), so that letter was probably fairly generic. The other reference letters were from a philosophy prof, another chem prof (I also got the highest mark in his course), and my former guitar teacher.

So I think the problem with the MD/PhD apps is the combination of surgery talk with good, but not spectacular, research experience. To be honest, I was really set on MD/PhD for most of undergrad, but over the past summer I started to have some serious doubts. I stuck with it for most schools (applied straight MD at Penn, Yale, and NYU) because I figured that it was easier to switch applications/acceptances from MD/PhD to MD than vice versa, but it may be that some of that ambivalence came through in my statements.

In terms of the MD applications, one problem could be that most of my letters are oriented towards MD/PhD, so they talk mainly about research and academics. The other issue I can think of is that I don't have a huge amount of volunteering. I did the conservation project in Costa Rica this past summer, but that was after AMCAS was submitted. I've done a fair bit of charity work with my fraternity (putting on shows, participating in campus events, volunteering at our associated charity), but that may not have been obvious on my application. I also did a few other things in first and 2nd year, but I didn't put them on AMCAS because they just weren't all that meaningful to me.

Other than that, I have dual citizenship, but I've lived in Canada my whole life and go to school there. My school is a major research university with a good reputation in Canada, no one's really heard of it in the US, which may have been a disadvantage, although I hoped that my association with Penn and strong MCAT make up for this. The really unfortunate part about this is that I don't have any advisors who know about US applications.

Any thoughts? Sorry for how long this was. Also chronicidal, i was creeping your MDapps and congrats on Wash U!

 

[gstrub]

but I've lived in Canada my whole life and go to school there.

Answer to your question.

 

[StoicJosher]

Answer to your question.

But if he has dual citizenship, I would think it is less of a problem.

To Choculitis: From what I see, I think it might be your lack of clinical volunteering/experience that is holding you down. Yes - you have shadowed a surgeon and a radiologist but were you able to convince your interviewers about the motivation behind the MD part of the MD/PhD? I spend time in the Pre-Allo forums and the vibe I get from the adcom members who post there is that shadowing is (usually) not enough to show a good commitment to medicine. But then again, the MD/PhD is different - so there is your grain of salt.

 

[SBR249]

But if he has dual citizenship, I would think it is less of a problem.

To Choculitis: From what I see, I think it might be your lack of clinical volunteering/experience that is holding you down. Yes - you have shadowed a surgeon and a radiologist but were you able to convince your interviewers about the motivation behind the MD part of the MD/PhD? I spend time in the Pre-Allo forums and the vibe I get from the adcom members who post there is that shadowing is (usually) not enough to show a good commitment to medicine. But then again, the MD/PhD is different - so there is your grain of salt.

I would disagree, I'd say that I got more out of shadowing than my time volunteering in the hospital. I don't even talk about the latter at interviews when asked about Why I want to do the MD. Granted this wasn't the one-off shadow-a-doc-for-a-day kind of thing. I shadowed the same doc one day a week for 9 months and got to know the whole team (fellow, attending, nurses) pretty well and the clinic treated the disease that I studied in lab. But still, in the right circumstance, shadowing can be very informative.

 

[justgo]

I'm not an expert I suppose, but does anyone else think that it might actually be the amount of research experience? There are perhaps a lot of slots on the list of research, but only 1 year of continued research. I personally think that might be an issue and is easy to resolve by staying on with a good project if you don't happen to be accepted this cycle. Buuuut, if you want to do surgery, it might be a blessing in disguise to not do the MD/PhD and go straight MD. I'm so glad I have absolutely no inkling to do surgery!

 

[Choculitis]

Thanks for all the input guys!

Justgo — I definitely think that's part of it. I didn't go on this site until I started working on my apps, so I didn't see Neuronix's recommendation of a minimum of 2 years of research and nobody ever indicated to me that my experience wouldn't be adequate before that. I worked with an MD/PhD student at Penn who had similarl #s and only two summers of experience when he applied. But that was 8 years ago and he went to Yale, so who knows what difference that makes. I also talked my app over with a fairly prominent doctor who graduated from the Harvard-MIT program in the 80s and he thought it was fine too.

SBR249 — I totally agree with you. The people I know who have volunteered at hospitals spent their time distributing menus to patients or working at the gift shop. The shadowing was similar to what you describe, except that I basically did one term per doctor. I've continued this with orthopedics for the past term and neurosurg next term.

XklusivGuy — What else could I do to convince people about my motivation? I'm really not down with the whole working the gift shop type thing...

gstrub — You think that matters significantly even for a US citizen? I know Hopkins had an MD/PhD from U of Toronto, and I know of various other Canadians who have gotten into top schools. The really difficult part is just that we simply don't get some of the same resources in Canada...no advisors, no committees to read letters, year long research is much less common, shadowing is almost unheard of for undergrads, etc.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

It's not a tragedy. I was rejected my first time, then reapplied two years later after boosting my MCAT 6 points and getting another 1.5 years under my belt. Still no publications, but did MUCH better.

I think your main issue is not enough research experience. I would also condense some of these ECs to the most significant ones.

Also apply much more broadly. The first time I applied to 17 schools, interviewed at 2, waitlisted at one. The second time I applied primary to 40 schools, submitted secondaries to ~25-30 schools (if I recall correctly), got invited to interview at 18 schools, chose to interview at 6 schools, and got in.

In general, when seeking advice ask people who are closest to the process, e.g. those on this forum. Someone who did an MD/PhD in the 1980s is not likely to realize how much the competition has increased. I've said it before and will say it again, I would probably not get into the college or the medical school I went to if I applied today, the standards and competition keeps on increasing.

 

[miz]

I disagree w/ XklusivGuy and gstrub, I think it was most likely the research experience. I don't think your alma mater/dual citizenship should hurt you whatsoever. Good luck with the rest of the cycle, don't lose hope, it's not even close to being over!

 

[Choculitis]

In response to applying more broadly, hopefully this doesn't sound too arrogant, but I'm really not interested in going to a school outside the top 20 (and really this is more like top 10). I've never been one to settle and if I was, there are plenty of schools in Canada that are just as good as all but the very best schools in the US. The school I'm at right now has a great med school and I love it here. U of Toronto is an even better school, and its campus in downtown Toronto is probably one of the best locations of any med school in North America. If I'm going to travel far away from home and leave all my friends, then there has to be a good reason (i.e. an absolute top school).

Maybe I should also post this on the pre-allo forum, but do you have any idea why I'm not even getting MD interviews? I already left a bunch of ECs out that I didnt feel were all that important to me...should I still have condensed? I get that research experience is probably the problem for MD/PhD, but that doesn't explain the MD rejections at Duke, Cornell, and like Penn...

As always, thanks for all the input!

 

[SBR249]

Once again I'll chime in with my impression of Duke, though this time it's the med school. They seem to be a lot more about the intangible touchy-feely stuff than your stats or number of ECs. In that regard, I think it's fair to say that there's a specific type of person that Duke looks for in the primary and secondary essays and it's likely that you just didn't come across as fitting that mold.

 

[StoicJosher]

In response to applying more broadly, hopefully this doesn't sound too arrogant, but I'm really not interested in going to a school outside the top 20 (and really this is more like top 10). I've never been one to settle and if I was, there are plenty of schools in Canada that are just as good as all but the very best schools in the US. The school I'm at right now has a great med school and I love it here. U of Toronto is an even better school, and its campus in downtown Toronto is probably one of the best locations of any med school in North America. If I'm going to travel far away from home and leave all my friends, then there has to be a good reason (i.e. an absolute top school).

Maybe I should also post this on the pre-allo forum, but do you have any idea why I'm not even getting MD interviews? I already left a bunch of ECs out that I didnt feel were all that important to me...should I still have condensed? I get that research experience is probably the problem for MD/PhD, but that doesn't explain the MD rejections at Duke, Cornell, and like Penn...

As always, thanks for all the input!

Which is why I narrowed in on the clinical aspect of your application and not the research (also, read my last paragraph).

Of course, it could easily be a combination of factors - the focus on surgery, the research, the clinical aspect.... ??

I would disagree, I'd say that I got more out of shadowing than my time volunteering in the hospital. I don't even talk about the latter at interviews when asked about Why I want to do the MD. Granted this wasn't the one-off shadow-a-doc-for-a-day kind of thing. I shadowed the same doc one day a week for 9 months and got to know the whole team (fellow, attending, nurses) pretty well and the clinic treated the disease that I studied in lab. But still, in the right circumstance, shadowing can be very informative.

That is true - no one has the same type of experience doing different things. Personally, I didn't gain anything from shadowing doctors. And my clinical experience allowed me to do more than just "run a gift shop" - so my experiences where different. In the end, I think it boils down to what you took away from your experience (shadowing or otherwise) and how that influenced you to go into medicine (medical research in our case).

Thanks for all the input guys!

XklusivGuy — What else could I do to convince people about my motivation? I'm really not down with the whole working the gift shop type thing...

What is your motivation? How did you present it in your application? Considering you have mostly pre-interview rejections, I think it might have something to do with your application (you definitely have the numbers) - any red flags in your essays, LORs etc? I think there might be a red flag in your application because, frankly, with those numbers at least some schools should be giving you a shot at interviews. I wouldn't know more without reading your application but you might want to have it looked over by someone who is familiar with the recent application process/cycles. Something to look into...

 

[Choculitis]

Once again I'll chime in with my impression of Duke, though this time it's the med school. They seem to be a lot more about the intangible touchy-feely stuff than your stats or number of ECs. In that regard, I think it's fair to say that there's a specific type of person that Duke looks for in the primary and secondary essays and it's likely that you just didn't come across as fitting that mold.

Yeah that makes sense, given their secondary. Cornell also seems to do some weird things...I worked with a resident at Penn who got into Columbia and Hopkins, but no interview at Cornell. So it's possible that I'll do better at other schools.

 

[Choculitis]

What is your motivation? How did you present it in your application? Considering you have mostly pre-interview rejections, I think it might have something to do with your application (you definitely have the numbers) - any red flags in your essays, LORs etc? I think there might be a red flag in your application because, frankly, with those numbers at least some schools should be giving you a shot at interviews. I wouldn't know more without reading your application but you might want to have it looked over by someone who is familiar with the recent application process/cycles. Something to look into...

Yeah, I've been thinking about getting in touch with a consultant, because there's really no one at my school who can help me.

In terms of motivation...basically, in the personal comments essay, I start by discussing my long time interest in music and how I became more interested in medical science, draw some analogies between jazz and what I observed in the surgery observership, explain how medicine appeals to me in it's intellectual and humanistic aspects, and finish with a paragraph about my interest in medical research. I thought I articulated it pretty clearly, tried to avoid coming off as cold and overly intellectual, and I thought that the music part would be a little fresh and creative.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

In response to applying more broadly, hopefully this doesn't sound too arrogant, but I'm really not interested in going to a school outside the top 20 (and really this is more like top 10). I've never been one to settle and if I was, there are plenty of schools in Canada that are just as good as all but the very best schools in the US. The school I'm at right now has a great med school and I love it here. U of Toronto is an even better school, and its campus in downtown Toronto is probably one of the best locations of any med school in North America. If I'm going to travel far away from home and leave all my friends, then there has to be a good reason (i.e. an absolute top school).

Maybe I should also post this on the pre-allo forum, but do you have any idea why I'm not even getting MD interviews? I already left a bunch of ECs out that I didnt feel were all that important to me...should I still have condensed? I get that research experience is probably the problem for MD/PhD, but that doesn't explain the MD rejections at Duke, Cornell, and like Penn...

As always, thanks for all the input!

It is slightly arrogant. There's no reason to complain then, the top 10 didn't think you matched what they were looking for. You'll have to take a rational approach, figure out what their acceptees have that you don't, and apply again...or go to a Canadian school.

Regarding the MD interviews, many of the MD programs don't even look at you if the MD/PhD program trashed your application. My impression is that they are not generally independent tracks and that the independent track (where you get the same review from the med school as any other med school applicant) is more the exception than the norm.

Regarding surgery, I am more and more questioning the validity of the MD/PhD at all, and that means in the "ideal" scenario where a physician is seeing some sort of specialized patient population and using access to these patients - and insights in treating them - to develop his basic research, etc. The rationale for having a PhD in surgery is difficult to see, other than something where there's a ton of basic science understanding still needed and that isn't addressed by medical specialties (e.g. transplantation).

 

[QofQuimica]

In response to applying more broadly, hopefully this doesn't sound too arrogant, but I'm really not interested in going to a school outside the top 20 (and really this is more like top 10). I've never been one to settle and if I was, there are plenty of schools in Canada that are just as good as all but the very best schools in the US. The school I'm at right now has a great med school and I love it here. U of Toronto is an even better school, and its campus in downtown Toronto is probably one of the best locations of any med school in North America. If I'm going to travel far away from home and leave all my friends, then there has to be a good reason (i.e. an absolute top school).

Yes, it does sound arrogant.

Maybe I should also post this on the pre-allo forum, but do you have any idea why I'm not even getting MD interviews? I already left a bunch of ECs out that I didnt feel were all that important to me...should I still have condensed? I get that research experience is probably the problem for MD/PhD, but that doesn't explain the MD rejections at Duke, Cornell, and like Penn...

See above.

Look, you're obviously a bright guy or gal, and no doubt you have a lot to contribute to medicine and/or science, should you so choose. But being arrogant is a killer in med school applications. I sat on my med school's adcom for four years, and we regularly rejected applicants, both pre-interview and post-interview, if they came off as thinking they were hot stuff just because of their stats or other major acccomplishments. So if your apps reek of arrogance, it doesn't surprise me that you're being rejected from the top MD-only programs that have their pick of the best students in the country. And the same goes for MD/PhD programs, especially since your research experience, while probably sufficient, isn't knock-your-socks-off impressive.

Obviously I'm just guessing here, but I don't think there's anything major wrong with your app. I think it's simply a matter of hubris.

 

[chronicidal]

I sat on my med school's adcom for four years, and we regularly rejected applicants, both pre-interview and post-interview, if they came off as thinking they were hot stuff just because of their stats or other major acccomplishments.

Could you give an example of something that appears on an application that sounds arrogant?

What if someone mentioned their stats in their personal statement? Would that seem arrogant or naive (perhaps like a recent immigrant who is unaware of how American university admissions works)?

 

[Choculitis]

Could you give an example of something that appears on an application that sounds arrogant?

What if someone mentioned their stats in their personal statement? Would that seem arrogant or naive (perhaps like a recent immigrant who is unaware of how American university admissions works)?

Yeah, I'd be interested in that too. A lot of the essay prompts are something along the lines of "tell us why should we accept you to our school" so where's the line between selling yourself and arrogance?

 

[QofQuimica]

Could you give an example of something that appears on an application that sounds arrogant?

What if someone mentioned their stats in their personal statement? Would that seem arrogant or naive (perhaps like a recent immigrant who is unaware of how American university admissions works)?

There's not any one specific thing; it's a general tone of entitlement and self-centeredness. (I'm speaking in general here, not specifically about choculitis, as I obviously haven't read his/her essays.)

One of my classmates, also a student adcom, used what he called the "I" test. What is the "I" test? Well, when every sentence in the essay starts with "I", and the writer doesn't give credit to anyone else for things that are team efforts (like research projects), that's a bad sign. Doubly so if the LOR writers aren't nearly as exuberant over the student's accomplishments as the student is. That kind of stuff comes out during interviews, too, like where people exaggerate their role in an activity. Or, one of my big red flags was when people said they didn't volunteer/get clinical experience because they had no time. That's BS. If something is important to you, then you make the time. It's all about priorities.

FWIW, I don't think it's necessary to mention your stats in your PS. They're already analyzed and clearly reported in a nice little table by AMCAS. If they're good stats, the adcom will see that, and no need to go out of your way to be obnoxious and point it out. If they're sub-par stats, no need to go out of your way to point that out, either. If the interviewer really wants to know why you got a C in organic chemistry, they'll ask. Keep in mind that the purpose of the PS is to answer "why medicine?" (or, for many of you, "why MD/PhD"?) You're not going into medicine/research because of your stats, right? So focus on what's relevant to answering the question you're being asked.

 

[Neuronix]

In response to applying more broadly, hopefully this doesn't sound too arrogant, but I'm really not interested in going to a school outside the top 20 (and really this is more like top 10). I've never been one to settle and if I was, there are plenty of schools in Canada that are just as good as all but the very best schools in the US. The school I'm at right now has a great med school and I love it here. U of Toronto is an even better school, and its campus in downtown Toronto is probably one of the best locations of any med school in North America. If I'm going to travel far away from home and leave all my friends, then there has to be a good reason (i.e. an absolute top school).

You were arrogant enough to ignore my prior advice and then arrogant enough to post this. Wow. It's one thing to say "oops, I made a mistake". It's another thing altogether to say "They rejected me? They weren't good enough for me anyway." IMO, this sort of elitism is a lot of what's wrong with American medicine. I can't tell you why you didn't get in. But, if you let out one ounce of this in essays or interviews, I'm sure you'd get rejected. Though I'm sure you're smart enough not to, and this is the sad part of medical school admissions.

What is a "top 10" anyway? Is it based off some US News ranking that shuffles around every year? Because if you're going to not think a MSTP funded MD/PhD program (basically all of the USNews top 40 and even some in the 40s) is good enough for you, then you should stay in Canada. Take advantage of the opportunities you're given, or leave those spots to American students who will be much more grateful to fill them.

 

[Choculitis]

You were arrogant enough to ignore my prior advice and then arrogant enough to post this. Wow. It's one thing to say "oops, I made a mistake". It's another thing altogether to say "They rejected me? They weren't good enough for me anyway." IMO, this sort of elitism is a lot of what's wrong with American medicine. I can't tell you why you didn't get in. But, if you let out one ounce of this in essays or interviews, I'm sure you'd get rejected. Though I'm sure you're smart enough not to, and this is the sad part of medical school admissions.

What is a "top 10" anyway? Is it based off some US News ranking that shuffles around every year? Because if you're going to not think a MSTP funded MD/PhD program (basically all of the USNews top 40 and even some in the 40s) is good enough for you, then you should stay in Canada. Take advantage of the opportunities you're given, or leave those spots to American students who will be much more grateful to fill them.

Wow, this is starting to look like a personal attack. When did I say that these schools aren't good enough for me? Obviously if I'm not getting in I made some mistakes, and the whole point of this post is to figure out what exactly those mistakes are, as well as to hopefully help someone else avoid them in the future. Yes, you were probably right about the surgery thing, but at the time, a bunch of other people who have attended top schools were telling me that it was fine to talk about it. While I certainly valued your input then, as I do now, I don't think it's arrogant to have given more weight to the opinion of my coworkers against that of someone I've never met.

How is it elitist or arrogant to want to go to a great school? Given the cost difference, I was fine going to a Canadian school for undergrad instead of shooting for a top US school. In general, this has been fine, but having worked at Penn, I've seen that there are some opportunities that you get there that I simply haven't had, and this has hindered my med school applications. If med school is at all analogous, then I want to give myself the best chance possible to get into a great residency.

 

[Neuronix]

If med school is at all analogous, then I want to give myself the best chance possible to get into a great residency.

It's about what you do in medical school and the specialty you choose that gets you the great residency. It's not about where you go for medical school. When I was a senior MSTP student, we had four people not match at all from the program in a single year. Not matching to any of the intended programs, the intended specialty, or to residency at all happens to MSTPs more than you know and more than anyone wants to talk about. Again, when you're talking about various MSTPs, you're talking about the same opportunities down the line.

Just like for undergrad, there are some disadvantages to going to a top medical school. When you're in a hyper-competitive field (whether that's pre-med or applying to a competitive specialty), it can be harder to stand out. The advising can be much harsher and more neglectful on you unless you are outstanding against an already excellent field. Similarly, the attached medical school/residency program can ignore you if you're not the top student. Now maybe you will be the top student, but the PhD doesn't count for a whole lot out there in a lot of specialties. Step scores and AOA status are the benchmarks even for MD/PhD students. This again has far more to do with your individual performance than the program. Caveat Emptor.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

Wow, this is starting to look like a personal attack. When did I say that these schools aren't good enough for me? Obviously if I'm not getting in I made some mistakes, and the whole point of this post is to figure out what exactly those mistakes are, as well as to hopefully help someone else avoid them in the future. Yes, you were probably right about the surgery thing, but at the time, a bunch of other people who have attended top schools were telling me that it was fine to talk about it. While I certainly valued your input then, as I do now, I don't think it's arrogant to have given more weight to the opinion of my coworkers against that of someone I've never met.

How is it elitist or arrogant to want to go to a great school? Given the cost difference, I was fine going to a Canadian school for undergrad instead of shooting for a top US school. In general, this has been fine, but having worked at Penn, I've seen that there are some opportunities that you get there that I simply haven't had, and this has hindered my med school applications. If med school is at all analogous, then I want to give myself the best chance possible to get into a great residency.

I don't think you understand what it takes to get into a great residency. I believe there's a survey of PDs from various fields regarding what factors they rate highly when matching applicants and medical school attended was consistently rated as one of the lowest. From what I understand, your Step I score, clinical grades, and research are the most important factors. These trump where you attend med school.

 

[Choculitis]

Okay, thanks for the advice. Do you have any idea about applying to US residencies from Canadian schools?

 

[Neuronix]

Okay, thanks for the advice. Do you have any idea about applying to US residencies from Canadian schools?

That part I don't know so much about. I hear it's difficult because Canadian programs don't give their students time to prepare for Step 1, don't focus on Step 1 material, and it's very hard to apply to the Canadian and US matches. The Canadian match happens first, so if you really want a US program you're in the position of only applying in a risky fashion to only US programs. If you don't get a US spot at that point, you're pretty much screwed. It's also a lot harder to get away electives in the USA coming from Canada than from another American school both for scheduling and administrative reasons.

In addition, unless things change the number of US residency positions open to FMGs is set to decline drastically and already has been because of increasing numbers of graduates and flat numbers of residency positions. If you're thinking about residency in the USA, you should do med school in the USA. But, given that you're talking about how you did undergrad in Canada, that the med school options in Canada are just as good, why don't you do residency in Canada as well?

 

[QofQuimica]

I don't think you understand what it takes to get into a great residency. I believe there's a survey of PDs from various fields regarding what factors they rate highly when matching applicants and medical school attended was consistently rated as one of the lowest. From what I understand, your Step I score, clinical grades, and research are the most important factors. These trump where you attend med school.

Substitute "LORs" for "research," and you are correct. The most important things that PDs care about are board scores, clinical grades/class rank, and LORs from someone they respect telling them that you are the greatest thing since sliced bread. That being said, certain programs/specialties do also expect research from their applicants, or at least like to see some. You're an MS1 now, right, Kaushik? Regardless of what specialty you decide to go into, you can't go wrong with doing research for the summer between first and second years. That's true not only for residency app purposes, but also because there are summer research fellowships galore for med students out there, and you'll get paid. 😎

 

[Choculitis]

If you're thinking about residency in the USA, you should do med school in the USA. But, given that you're talking about how you did undergrad in Canada, that the med school options in Canada are just as good, why don't you do residency in Canada as well?

Well, the med schools in Canada are as good as most US schools (or so I've been told by a number of doctors here, including the one who went to Harvard/MIT and another who was a professor at WUSTL), but no one would try to argue that they're as good as the very best, and I believe the same is true for residency.

 

[Choculitis]

and LORs from someone they respect telling them that you are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

So if the person writing the letter matters, then doesn't where you go to school also matter? I know that all schools will have some great profs, but don't you have a much better chance of getting a big name writing your letter at Hopkins/Harvard/Penn/etc vs. some generic state school.

 

[QofQuimica]

So if the person writing the letter matters, then doesn't where you go to school also matter? I know that all schools will have some great profs, but don't you have a much better chance of getting a big name writing your letter at Hopkins/Harvard/Penn/etc vs. some generic state school.

1) There are well known people everywhere; in some specialties, it might surprise you where the "big name" residency programs are. Including at "generic state schools," a choice of words which incidentally is a perfect example of how you come across as being arrogant (and ignorant to boot). Regardless, seeing as you don't actually know right now what specialty you're going to choose, there's no point in trying to pick a med school based on that criterion.

2) Away rotations. If you can't get the letters you need at your own school, you go rotate at another school at the beginning of your fourth year and get LORs that way. Many students do aways even if they *can* get good LORs at their own school.

Open your eyes, my friend. You have seven pre-interview rejections, one post-interview rejection and may well have to reapply this summer, which is why people are giving you grief for thinking that any schools are beneath you. Get yourself accepted somewhere, anywhere, first, and *then* you can worry about how to maximize your chances of getting into the residency you want. Fair enough?

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

1) There are well known people everywhere; in some specialties, it might surprise you where the "big name" residency programs are. Including at "generic state schools," a choice of words which incidentally is a perfect example of how you come across as being arrogant (and ignorant to boot). Regardless, seeing as you don't actually know right now what specialty you're going to choose, there's no point in trying to pick a med school based on that criterion.

2) Away rotations. If you can't get the letters you need at your own school, you go rotate at another school at the beginning of your fourth year and get LORs that way. Many students do aways even if they *can* get good LORs at their own school.

Open your eyes, my friend. You have seven pre-interview rejections, one post-interview rejection and may well have to reapply this summer, which is why people are giving you grief for thinking that any schools are beneath you. Get yourself accepted somewhere, anywhere, first, and *then* you can worry about how to maximize your chances of getting into the residency you want. Fair enough?

Well put, Q.

 

[Choculitis]

Open your eyes, my friend. You have seven pre-interview rejections, one post-interview rejection and may well have to reapply this summer, which is why people are giving you grief for thinking that any schools are beneath you. Get yourself accepted somewhere, anywhere, first, and *then* you can worry about how to maximize your chances of getting into the residency you want. Fair enough?

Look, I'm not going to apologize for having high expectations for myself...if people find that arrogant, then so be it. I'm not interested in being told to lower my goals; I want to to know how I can improve my application in order to reach them. I saw first hand how amazing Johns Hopkins was, and there's no doubt in my mind that I'd get a better education and overall experience there than at just about any other school. Unfortunately that won't happen for this cycle, but hopefully if I end up re-applying hopefully I can fix whatever they didn't like about my app this time. It's not even really about having a big name...it's about giving myself the resources and putting myself in the environment that will drive me to excel.