Talking to older doctors...

[Marcion]

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...ends up leaving me angry with how much of a meat grinder this application process has become. I got to talking today with the head physician at the clinic I volunteer at (who applied to school just as the Vietnam War was ramping up) . Mentioned I was gonna be busy the rest of the day working on my application essays. "What essays?" he says. LOL, if only I had an interview invite for every time I've heard that question from older doctors.

We got to talking more and it turns out all he had to do back in his day was apply to two medical schools. Two!!!!!! And he got in both! And he didn't have to do any clinical OR non-clinical volunteering, take the MCAT, or jump through any of the myriad other hoops that have been set up to make sure every new med student is more saintly than Jesus and Buddha combined.

If anyone ever questions my ECs at the interviews I might hypothetically get, the response I'd love to give (but I don't think I have the cojones to actually say to them...) is ask them: were all the doctors who were trained basically from the founding of this country to around 1990-something worse physicians because they didn't have to meet all these unofficially mandatory requirements? Is this year's current crop of med school graduates actually the most intelligent, altruistic, leaderly generation of physicians the world has ever seen? Or would applicants and schools alike save themselves a bunch of time, money and grief if schools just rolled dice to determine acceptance once you're past a certain minimum metric?

I get that the number of applicants has increased. SDN is the neurotic, overachieving place it is mostly because nearly all the avenues for an ambitious, intelligent young person to make a career for themselves have been ruined aside from medicine, engineering, and some kinds of IT. We are the cutthroat competitors for the scraps of the last OK opportunities to leave a legacy and have job security in this economy. I can't imagine what kind of soul-crushing pirahna tank this process is going to become in even ten years' time. Look at that new CASPR bull**** for a sign of things to come. I feel so bad for today's high-schoolers... and the less said about the people younger than them, the better. If you want a vision of the future - imagine ever-more pointless hoops for pre-meds to jump through, in ever-larger numbers, with ever-larger price tags, forever.

Anyway, rant over. I've just been ruminating on this all day since this morning and needed to vent somewhere. This process hasn't ground my passion for medicine out of me yet, but it's getting there. Just need to get... oof... 20 something more essays done. Then I can wash my hands of all this BS for good or ill, and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Crayola227]

because nearly all the avenues for an ambitious, intelligent young person to make a career for themselves have been ruined aside from medicine, engineering, and some kinds of IT. We are the cutthroat competitors for the scraps of the last OK opportunities to leave a legacy and have job security in this economy. I can't imagine what kind of soul-crushing pirahna tank this process is going to become in even ten years' time. Look at that new CASPR bull**** for a sign of things to come. I feel so bad for today's high-schoolers... and the less said about the people younger than them, the better. If you want a vision of the future - imagine ever-more pointless hoops for

I just quoted the part of your post I agreed with 100%

 

[bc65]

We got to talking more and it turns out all he had to do back in his day was apply to two medical schools. Two!!!!!! And he got in both! And he didn't have to do any clinical OR non-clinical volunteering, take the MCAT, or jump through any of the myriad other hoops that have been set up to make sure every new med student is more saintly than Jesus and Buddha combined.

I don't believe this. He's either lying, doesn't remember, or else this is an extreme example of survivor bias, or you misunderstood.

The Vietnam war "was gearing up" in the early 1960's. It was at its peak in the mid to late 60's, and was over by around 73. So, if this guy was applying in the early 60's, he would now be in his mid to late 70's. Is he that old? It's unlikely that he would still be practicing.

GPA and MCAT scores of accepted applicants were approximately the same then as now. I've looked at the numbers going back to the 1930's. In fact, based on MCAT scores, getting in in the 70's was much harder than it is now. GPAs are about the same or a little easier now, if you take grade inflation into account.

All med school applications required essays and interviews then, just as they do now.

You had to take the MCAT back then. He either doesn't remember taking it or was in some obscure 6 year BS/MD program that didn't require it. (There are a few programs like that now) .

Applying to only two schools would have been as foolish and unlikely a plan then as it would be now.

Research, volunteering, and shadowing were expected back then as well. Perhaps it was less important, and you could do less of those activities, but most doctors who are in their 60's now did all those things for their applications also.

 

[NotASerialKiller]

One of my physician mentors once laughed and said, "I never would have gotten in if their standards back then were as high as today!"

Not sure if I know what you mean about CASPer though. It's quite cheap, requires no preparation and is just meant to establish that you're capable of some amount of empathy. I'd hardly call that soul-crushing. The bulk of Canadian applicants having near-flawless GPAs and then needing to apply for 2-4 cycles anyway, now that's soul-crushing.

 

[y123]

We got to talking more and it turns out all he had to do back in his day was apply to two medical schools. Two!!!!!! And he got in both! And he didn't have to do any clinical OR non-clinical volunteering, take the MCAT, or jump through any of the myriad other hoops that have been set up to make sure every new med student is more saintly than Jesus and Buddha combined..

Is he a graduate of a foreign school or a BS/MD program? He never even took the MCAT???
I thought the MCAT was required since late 1920s.

 

[bcemslayer]

The bulk of Canadian applicants having near-flawless GPAs and then needing to apply for 2-4 cycles anyway, now that's soul-crushing.

Unrelated, I work with a guy in a lab that applied 7 times, two undergraduate degrees, a masters, great MCAT and GPA, and was waitlisted a couple times, and he is totally normal. Although 7 is high, considering the average cycles is 3, it's kind of depressing. Admissions up here are brutal.
Edit: he never got in.

 

[ProspectiveKidd]

Everything becomes more complex and requires more knowledge, more education, more qualification. It's like that with everything regardless of the career. We do so much more now because we know so much more now.

 

[ATPsynthase123]

...ends up leaving me angry with how much of a meat grinder this application process has become. I got to talking today with the head physician at the clinic I volunteer at (who applied to school just as the Vietnam War was ramping up) . Mentioned I was gonna be busy the rest of the day working on my application essays. "What essays?" he says. LOL, if only I had an interview invite for every time I've heard that question from older doctors.

We got to talking more and it turns out all he had to do back in his day was apply to two medical schools. Two!!!!!! And he got in both! And he didn't have to do any clinical OR non-clinical volunteering, take the MCAT, or jump through any of the myriad other hoops that have been set up to make sure every new med student is more saintly than Jesus and Buddha combined.

If anyone ever questions my ECs at the interviews I might hypothetically get, the response I'd love to give (but I don't think I have the cojones to actually say to them...) is ask them: were all the doctors who were trained basically from the founding of this country to around 1990-something worse physicians because they didn't have to meet all these unofficially mandatory requirements? Is this year's current crop of med school graduates actually the most intelligent, altruistic, leaderly generation of physicians the world has ever seen? Or would applicants and schools alike save themselves a bunch of time, money and grief if schools just rolled dice to determine acceptance once you're past a certain minimum metric?

I get that the number of applicants has increased. SDN is the neurotic, overachieving place it is mostly because nearly all the avenues for an ambitious, intelligent young person to make a career for themselves have been ruined aside from medicine, engineering, and some kinds of IT. We are the cutthroat competitors for the scraps of the last OK opportunities to leave a legacy and have job security in this economy. I can't imagine what kind of soul-crushing pirahna tank this process is going to become in even ten years' time. Look at that new CASPR bull**** for a sign of things to come. I feel so bad for today's high-schoolers... and the less said about the people younger than them, the better. If you want a vision of the future - imagine ever-more pointless hoops for pre-meds to jump through, in ever-larger numbers, with ever-larger price tags, forever.

Anyway, rant over. I've just been ruminating on this all day since this morning and needed to vent somewhere. This process hasn't ground my passion for medicine out of me yet, but it's getting there. Just need to get... oof... 20 something more essays done. Then I can wash my hands of all this BS for good or ill, and let the chips fall where they may.

i agree 100%. I really think that in the next decade they will rework the application process/hidden requirements. If they dont we risk the average applicant having to be: 4.0 GPA, 520+ MCAT, exceptional volunteering (like opening a school in africa and spending a decade volunteering there), a minimum of 2 years healthcare experience, and 4 years of research with at least 1 publication.

 

[Donald Juan]

I don't believe this. He's either lying, doesn't remember, or else this is an extreme example of survivor bias, or you misunderstood.

The Vietnam war "was gearing up" in the early 1960's. It was at its peak in the mid to late 60's, and was over by around 73. So, if this guy was applying in the early 60's, he would now be in his mid to late 70's. Is he that old? It's unlikely that he would still be practicing.

GPA and MCAT scores of accepted applicants were approximately the same then as now. I've looked at the numbers going back to the 1930's. In fact, based on MCAT scores, getting in in the 70's was much harder than it is now. GPAs are about the same or a little easier now, if you take grade inflation into account.

All med school applications required essays and interviews then, just as they do now.

You had to take the MCAT back then. He either doesn't remember taking it or was in some obscure 6 year BS/MD program that didn't require it. (There are a few programs like that now) .

Applying to only two schools would have been as foolish and unlikely a plan then as it would be now.

Research, volunteering, and shadowing were expected back then as well. Perhaps it was less important, and you could do less of those activities, but most doctors who are in their 60's now did all those things for their applications also.

You're right that the physician probably did several things that he just forgot about...but there is a reason he forgot about them. It's probably because he never studied for the mcat and went to take it as an afterthought. He probably didn't do any dedicated studying for his steps, either. Hell, when I was in high school nobody studied for the SAT, you just took it. Now everybody has to try to game the exams.

Again, the same with the essays and interviews, it was likely less of an ordeal. Nowadays if you haven't practiced interviewing with 10 premed advisors and had your PS looked at by a conglomeration of individuals and revised several times, you are looked at like a lazy jerk.

Of course, I feel like grade inflation makes a huge difference in saying it was "so easy" back then; in the sixties only about 15% of grades were As, today it's over 40% (more depending on your school).

Also, I'm surprised you think no physicians practice into their 70's. I have two in my department; one is partially retired, but still practicing...I'm not sure how old he is, but he graduated med school in 1963. I've seen plenty of docs who partially retire but refuse to quit until they can't hardly get around or fall over dead.

 

[mistafab]

Stop being a wuss.

These days we live better - give up the bitter chip on your shoulder, eat it, and get over it.

 

[Lawpy]

I don't believe this. He's either lying, doesn't remember, or else this is an extreme example of survivor bias, or you misunderstood.

The Vietnam war "was gearing up" in the early 1960's. It was at its peak in the mid to late 60's, and was over by around 73. So, if this guy was applying in the early 60's, he would now be in his mid to late 70's. Is he that old? It's unlikely that he would still be practicing.

GPA and MCAT scores of accepted applicants were approximately the same then as now. I've looked at the numbers going back to the 1930's. In fact, based on MCAT scores, getting in in the 70's was much harder than it is now. GPAs are about the same or a little easier now, if you take grade inflation into account.

All med school applications required essays and interviews then, just as they do now.

You had to take the MCAT back then. He either doesn't remember taking it or was in some obscure 6 year BS/MD program that didn't require it. (There are a few programs like that now) .

Applying to only two schools would have been as foolish and unlikely a plan then as it would be now.

Research, volunteering, and shadowing were expected back then as well. Perhaps it was less important, and you could do less of those activities, but most doctors who are in their 60's now did all those things for their applications also.

Interesting and important perspective. Not sure but i think @gyngyn may agree with you, since iirc he said something similar before.

 

[TehTeddy]

Stop being a wuss.

These days we live better - give up the bitter chip on your shoulder, eat it, and get over it.

Don't see how this adds to or helps anything.
It's a legitimate concern about the future of the application process and jobs in general.
Blindly accepting the situation without question solves nothing.

 

[bc65]

You're right that the physician probably did several things that he just forgot about...but there is a reason he forgot about them. It's probably because he never studied for the mcat and went to take it as an afterthought. He probably didn't do any dedicated studying for his steps, either. Hell, when I was in high school nobody studied for the SAT, you just took it. Now everybody has to try to game the exams

I didn't study for the SAT either ( I'm a lot older than you) and while at one time I would have also said that "back when I was in high school no one studied for the SAT" the fact is that lots of other people did. I just wasn't aware of it at the time. Kaplan's was a big business even back in the 60's, although I will concede that he had little competition until the 1980's..

The fact that this older doc says he didn't take it is highly likely to be wrong. If he doesn't remember taking it, how could he remember studying for it? Believe me, almost everyone studied for the MCAT 40 or 50 years ago.

Again, the same with the essays and interviews, it was likely less of an ordeal. Nowadays if you haven't practiced interviewing with 10 premed advisors and had your PS looked at by a conglomeration of individuals and revised several times, you are looked at like a lazy jerk

It was exactly the same when I did it, a long time ago.

Of course, I feel like grade inflation makes a huge difference in saying it was "so easy" back then; in the sixties only about 15% of grades were As, today it's over 40% (more depending on your school).

Very true. I'm impressed that you're aware of this phenomenon. In the 60's and 70's, you generally needed at least a 3.5 for admission to med school, just like today, but it was a lot harder to get that 3.5, which is more like a 3.8 or above today.

Also, I'm surprised you think no physicians practice into their 70's. I have two in my department; one is partially retired, but still practicing...I'm not sure how old he is, but he graduated med school in 1963. I've seen plenty of docs who partially retire but refuse to quit until they can't hardly get around or fall over dead.

I believe you, but my personal experience is different. I don't know any who are working past 65, and few who even go past 60. I don't recall working with any who were in their 60's when I was a resident. There were a few of that vintage who lectured to us in med school, but they were there telling us how it was in the "olden days".

So I don't doubt that there are some still working in their 70's, but OP was talking about "all the older docs" and referring to the 1960's. I realize that's possible, but I still find it unlikely.

 

[Marcion]

Stop being a wuss.

These days we live better - give up the bitter chip on your shoulder, eat it, and get over it.

Maybe you should consider that there's more to 'living better' than, say, having an iPhone.

Having stability, having self-respect, being able to support yourself and plan to have a family, being able to know you have a positive impact in the world - these are things I wouldn't want to live without. Would you?

 

[Swish16]

Way more competitive now than it was 20+ years ago. GPA standards have always been high but the MCAT and depth of extracurriculars have really strengthened the applicant pool.

A doctor I shadowed and his wife both attended Yale Medical School and said their daughter had way better qualifications than they did but unfortunately she didn't get accepted this past cycle.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[Mad Jack]

I don't believe this. He's either lying, doesn't remember, or else this is an extreme example of survivor bias, or you misunderstood.

The Vietnam war "was gearing up" in the early 1960's. It was at its peak in the mid to late 60's, and was over by around 73. So, if this guy was applying in the early 60's, he would now be in his mid to late 70's. Is he that old? It's unlikely that he would still be practicing.

GPA and MCAT scores of accepted applicants were approximately the same then as now. I've looked at the numbers going back to the 1930's. In fact, based on MCAT scores, getting in in the 70's was much harder than it is now. GPAs are about the same or a little easier now, if you take grade inflation into account.

All med school applications required essays and interviews then, just as they do now.

You had to take the MCAT back then. He either doesn't remember taking it or was in some obscure 6 year BS/MD program that didn't require it. (There are a few programs like that now) .

Applying to only two schools would have been as foolish and unlikely a plan then as it would be now.

Research, volunteering, and shadowing were expected back then as well. Perhaps it was less important, and you could do less of those activities, but most doctors who are in their 60's now did all those things for their applications also.

I've looked at the numbers as well, and, back in the day, you could get in with an MCAT approaching the 50th percentile. Now you need to be in the 90th much of the time. Average GPAs were substantially lower, but grade inflation didn't exist. Overall though, stats-wise, it was much easier to get into medical school in the pre-90s era.

 

[bc65]

Interesting and important perspective. Not sure but i think @gyngyn may agree with you, since iirc he said something similar before.

I have to confess that in the past I also wrote that "back then you didn't have to volunteer, shadow, etc", but after talking to my contemporaries, it turns out that when I applied you did have to do those things. I just hadn't realized that because I didn't do them much, which is why my application cycles were rocky. So you have to be skeptical about what people tell you about the good old days, and beware of survivor bias.

Way more competitive now than it was 20+ years ago.

It's hard to justify statements like these when the MCAT percentiles for accepted students hasn't changed much over the past 50 years, and the percentage of applicants who get in has been in the low 40s% for the past 50 years.

Even if more volunteering and shadowing is expected ( and I'm not sure that it is ) just do those things and you'll be competitive. It's not much more to do. The hard part is just realizing that it's expected.

 

[Marcion]

I don't believe this. He's either lying, doesn't remember, or else this is an extreme example of survivor bias, or you misunderstood.

The Vietnam war "was gearing up" in the early 1960's. It was at its peak in the mid to late 60's, and was over by around 73. So, if this guy was applying in the early 60's, he would now be in his mid to late 70's. Is he that old? It's unlikely that he would still be practicing.

He told me he went into the Navy after he graduated, and that was around the time Vietnam was starting to get beyond the "American advisors" phase into the "draft everybody" phase. He is 81 and in ridiculously good health for his age. So, yeah, he is old enough.

I asked him what the MCAT was like way back when. He said he didn't have to take it. Perhaps he forgot, but if so, the MCAT must have been a much tamer beast back then to have failed to leave an impression on him.

 

[bc65]

I've looked at the numbers as well, and, back in the day, you could get in with an MCAT approaching the 50th percentile. Now you need to be in the 90th much of the time. Average GPAs were substantially lower, but grade inflation didn't exist. Overall though, stats-wise, it was much easier to get into medical school in the pre-90s era.

Do you have data for the MCAT with a source? Because that's not what I have seen. I will try to find my source, but when I was applying (pre-90's) you needed a 90th percentile to be competitive. ie around a 30-32 in the recent scoring system.

 

[Mad Jack]

...ends up leaving me angry with how much of a meat grinder this application process has become. I got to talking today with the head physician at the clinic I volunteer at (who applied to school just as the Vietnam War was ramping up) . Mentioned I was gonna be busy the rest of the day working on my application essays. "What essays?" he says. LOL, if only I had an interview invite for every time I've heard that question from older doctors.

We got to talking more and it turns out all he had to do back in his day was apply to two medical schools. Two!!!!!! And he got in both! And he didn't have to do any clinical OR non-clinical volunteering, take the MCAT, or jump through any of the myriad other hoops that have been set up to make sure every new med student is more saintly than Jesus and Buddha combined.

If anyone ever questions my ECs at the interviews I might hypothetically get, the response I'd love to give (but I don't think I have the cojones to actually say to them...) is ask them: were all the doctors who were trained basically from the founding of this country to around 1990-something worse physicians because they didn't have to meet all these unofficially mandatory requirements? Is this year's current crop of med school graduates actually the most intelligent, altruistic, leaderly generation of physicians the world has ever seen? Or would applicants and schools alike save themselves a bunch of time, money and grief if schools just rolled dice to determine acceptance once you're past a certain minimum metric?

I get that the number of applicants has increased. SDN is the neurotic, overachieving place it is mostly because nearly all the avenues for an ambitious, intelligent young person to make a career for themselves have been ruined aside from medicine, engineering, and some kinds of IT. We are the cutthroat competitors for the scraps of the last OK opportunities to leave a legacy and have job security in this economy. I can't imagine what kind of soul-crushing pirahna tank this process is going to become in even ten years' time. Look at that new CASPR bull**** for a sign of things to come. I feel so bad for today's high-schoolers... and the less said about the people younger than them, the better. If you want a vision of the future - imagine ever-more pointless hoops for pre-meds to jump through, in ever-larger numbers, with ever-larger price tags, forever.

Anyway, rant over. I've just been ruminating on this all day since this morning and needed to vent somewhere. This process hasn't ground my passion for medicine out of me yet, but it's getting there. Just need to get... oof... 20 something more essays done. Then I can wash my hands of all this BS for good or ill, and let the chips fall where they may.

tl;dr version: life isn't unfair and it makes me butthurt, I want the things previous generations had because competition and hard work is hard.

 

[Goro]

I graduated college in the late 1970s. ALL of my friends who were pre-med shadowed and did hospital volunteering. I don't remember if they did research though.

Nobody is entitled to go to med school just because they good grades.

I don't believe this. He's either lying, doesn't remember, or else this is an extreme example of survivor bias, or you misunderstood.

The Vietnam war "was gearing up" in the early 1960's. It was at its peak in the mid to late 60's, and was over by around 73. So, if this guy was applying in the early 60's, he would now be in his mid to late 70's. Is he that old? It's unlikely that he would still be practicing.

GPA and MCAT scores of accepted applicants were approximately the same then as now. I've looked at the numbers going back to the 1930's. In fact, based on MCAT scores, getting in in the 70's was much harder than it is now. GPAs are about the same or a little easier now, if you take grade inflation into account.

All med school applications required essays and interviews then, just as they do now.

You had to take the MCAT back then. He either doesn't remember taking it or was in some obscure 6 year BS/MD program that didn't require it. (There are a few programs like that now) .

Applying to only two schools would have been as foolish and unlikely a plan then as it would be now.

Research, volunteering, and shadowing were expected back then as well. Perhaps it was less important, and you could do less of those activities, but most doctors who are in their 60's now did all those things for their applications also.

 

[Mad Jack]

Do you have data for the MCAT with a source? Because that's not what I have seen. I will try to find my source, but when I was applying (pre-90's) you needed a 90th percentile to be competitive. ie around a 30-32 in the recent scoring system.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK217679/#!po=14.4531

That has the GPA data. MCAT stuff I'll get for you later- I'm taking Step 1 tomorrow and don't have time to scrounge the internet for you.

 

[Marcion]

One of my physician mentors once laughed and said, "I never would have gotten in if their standards back then were as high as today!"

Not sure if I know what you mean about CASPer though. It's quite cheap, requires no preparation and is just meant to establish that you're capable of some amount of empathy. I'd hardly call that soul-crushing. The bulk of Canadian applicants having near-flawless GPAs and then needing to apply for 2-4 cycles anyway, now that's soul-crushing.

It's just another hoop to jump through. I am also coming at this from my perspective as a non-trad with a work schedule. Based on what I hear, you can only take it on certain days, and you have to go to their testing center to do it. Work schedules, shmork schedules.

tl;dr version: life isn't unfair and it makes me butthurt, I want the things previous generations had because competition and hard work is hard.

OK, you convinced me! Everything is fine! Nothing is wrong, and nobody should be worried about medicine being ruined like most other careers if every ambitious and hard-working young person is channeled into it! Thanks for opening my eyes!

 

[Mad Jack]

It's just another hoop to jump through. I am also coming at this from my perspective as a non-trad with a work schedule. Based on what I hear, you can only take it on certain days, and you have to go to their testing center to do it. Work schedules, shmork schedules.

OK, you convinced me! Everything is fine! Nothing is wrong, and nobody should be worried about medicine being ruined like most other careers if every ambitious and hard-working young person is channeled into it! Thanks for opening my eyes!

There isn't enough room for everyone. The 50% that don't get accepted generally go on to live happy and fulfilling lives in other careers. It's not like they just stop existing after they fail to matriculate

 

[Lawpy]

I graduated college in the late 1970s. ALL of my friends who were pre-med shadowed and did hospital volunteering. I don't remember if they did research though.

Nobody is entitled to go to med school just because they good grades.

I'm thinking about drafting a timeline to fully understand the consistent requirements (like clinical volunteering and shadowing) and new requirements (not sure, but I guess research?) that appeared in the last 50-60 years or so. Understanding the overall MCAT/GPA trends over the timespan will also help.

Perhaps such a timeline will put the outdated and incomplete anecdotes from the older physicians to rest.

 

[NotASerialKiller]

It's just another hoop to jump through. I am also coming at this from my perspective as a non-trad with a work schedule. Based on what I hear, you can only take it on certain days, and you have to go to their testing center to do it. Work schedules, shmork schedules.

I took it at home using a webcam for ID verification. I wasn't aware that there were test centres for it, maybe it's an American thing.

 

[Chromium Surfer]

I graduated college in the late 1970s. ALL of my friends who were pre-med shadowed and did hospital volunteering. I don't remember if they did research though.

Nobody is entitled to go to med school just because they good grades.

Shoot does that means you are slightlty over the half century mark then?😛

 

[ATPsynthase123]

I graduated college in the late 1970s. ALL of my friends who were pre-med shadowed and did hospital volunteering. I don't remember if they did research though.

Nobody is entitled to go to med school just because they good grades.

But as an adcom you have to agree that the "hidden" EC requirements and academic requirements for being a good applicant have gotten more rigorous over the years.

literally every physician I have shadowed didnt even think shadowing was a think that was required now. Like none of them volunteered, and told me basically back then all you needed to be a healthy applicant was a 3.5-3.6 GPA and a 30 MCAT. if you could get that you could get into any MD school aside from top tiers.

For what it is worth, I think the application process is incredibly flawed. I mean sure it influences us to volunteer and preview the medical field before applying, but its gotten to the point where it is unhealthy. For example, at my school it is cutthroat in things like grades and classroom performance. In fact, there was a group of kids who basically had a cheating ring all the way through two years of chemistry just to have a better GPA, and blowing the curve for people who actually try. It also has became a trend that premeds do ECs less for the goal of helping others and learning about the medical field, and more just to check a box on AMCAS so they wont be at a disadvantage.

The GPA/MCAT averages for matriculation is increasing as well. Since 2007 the average GPA has increased from 3.64 to 3.7 and sGPA has increased from 3.57 to 3.64. MCAT has increased by roughly 1 point. If we extrapolate this trend backwards (at least for GPA) it would likely show that the average GPA for an applicant in the 90s would be much lower than the average GPA of an applicant in 2016. Does that mean that the quality of doctor's was worse 25 years ago? Of course not. All that shows is that the application process has gotten needlessly more stressful, strenuous and rigorous and will continue on that trend until someone intervenes. It will eventually set unrealistic expectations for applicants in the future.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321494/data/factstablea16.pdf

 

[Marcion]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK217679/#!po=14.4531

That has the GPA data. MCAT stuff I'll get for you later- I'm taking Step 1 tomorrow and don't have time to scrounge the internet for you.

1961 - 60.4 % acceptance rate
Today - ~40% give or take; from a much more competitive pool to begin with

1966 - 13.4% of matriculants had an over 3.6 GPA.
Today - the mean is 3.77, SD of .23. So with some back-of-the-envelope statistics, a bit over 68% of matriculants are 3.6+.

Don't know how to control for grade inflation, which surely explains some of that. But based on their data the mean in '66 was something like a 3.0 maybe? You can't get from there to here based purely on grade inflation.

MCAT scores - I wasn't aware that it went back to the 20s! Based on talking to (multiple) older doctors I had gathered the impression it was rolled out sometime in the 70s or so. But who knows how to compare MCAT data from the 1920s to that of today. They revamp the format of the test every couple of years. And I would bet there was very little, say, genetics on the exam in 1920, LOL.

Your data do not support the argument that nothing has changed.

 

[bc65]

That has the GPA data. MCAT stuff I'll get for you later- I'm taking Step 1 tomorrow and don't have time to scrounge the internet for you.

Then stop wasting time here.. Good Luck!!!!!!!

 

[bc65]

1961 - 60.4 % acceptance rate
Today - ~40% give or take; from a much more competitive pool to begin with

Shame on you! You're cherry picking the data. There were a few years where the acceptance rate was around 60% Most years were in the low 40's, and there were quite a few years where the acceptance rate was in the 30s.

That's the data that counts. The acceptance rate has been fluctuating 40's for the last 60 years or so.

 

[bc65]

Here's the best MCAT data I could find:

1975-76 application data, accepted students average MCAT scores (based on 800). I have the scores, but not the percentile conversions, so I used the current SAT conversion chart. Note that all tests based on 800 are keyed to standard deviations, with 500 being the mean and each 100 points being an additional standard deviation, so while there are small deviations over time, any scale will give you a reasonable approximate result.

Science: 620 - 85%
Math: 624 = 85% ( yes, they had a math section, similar to SAT)
Verbal: 557 = 70%
General Information (a cultural/trivia section)
552= 68%


I don't see these numbers as being much different from the current admissions data.

If anyone wants to see data on grade inflation, go to wikipedia which has a good article on that subject.

 

[Marcion]

Shame on you! You're cherry picking the data. There were a few years where the acceptance rate was around 60% Most years were in the low 40's, and there were quite a few years where the acceptance rate was in the 30s.

That's the data that counts. The acceptance rate has been fluctuating 40's for the last 60 years or so.

D'oh, that's what I get for just glancing at the top line.

Still, the question then becomes - 40% of what kind of pool?

E: WTF was going on back then with med school admissions? I have no idea what could be behind these 5-point up and down swings between some years.

 

[Mad Jack]

1961 - 60.4 % acceptance rate
Today - ~40% give or take; from a much more competitive pool to begin with

1966 - 13.4% of matriculants had an over 3.6 GPA.
Today - the mean is 3.77, SD of .23. So with some back-of-the-envelope statistics, a bit over 68% of matriculants are 3.6+.

Don't know how to control for grade inflation, which surely explains some of that. But based on their data the mean in '66 was something like a 3.0 maybe? You can't get from there to here based purely on grade inflation.

MCAT scores - I wasn't aware that it went back to the 20s! Based on talking to (multiple) older doctors I had gathered the impression it was rolled out sometime in the 70s or so. But who knows how to compare MCAT data from the 1920s to that of today. They revamp the format of the test every couple of years. And I would bet there was very little, say, genetics on the exam in 1920, LOL.

Your data do not support the argument that nothing has changed.

I never said nothing has changed. My data was provided to state that it was easier, historically, to be admitted to medical school than it is today, both on a raw and statistical level. Someone stated that GPAs and MCATs were just as high, historically, as they are today. I was stating that they were not, and provided proof.

 

[Mad Jack]

Then stop wasting time here.. Good Luck!!!!!!!

After every block of 40 questions I take a few minutes to sip coffee and wind down for a few, dropping a bit of salt on SDN while I relax. I've already cranked through 160 UW questions in the last 8 hours (with review), so it's not like I'm being unproductive 😛

 

[Goro]

When I was an undergrad, we students all heard rumors of the pre-meds who would cough onto their classmates bacterial culture plates to sabotage them so the gunners could get a better grade.

Look, it's always been competitive. I perceive that the applicant pool has gotten better. My students in the past four years are the best we've ever had...light years ahead of the students when I first started teaching.

As for the process being unhealthy, I don't think that there's anything wrong with selecting for smart people who are good at time management, and are capable of showing off their altruism and humanism.

What I am sensing in your post is "I want to get into medical school on the basis of my good stats alone."

Sorry, but take a number. There are 40000 kids just like you on stats alone. And it's gotten far worse at the level of UG school admissions. That's why my two kids wil be going tot he local CC and then once to a state school, where they'll get an excellent education in whatever they want to do (although I don't know if you can get a degree in arguing, which is what they're both prodigies in).

So, as Stephen King would say "the world has moved on"

But as an adcom you have to agree that the "hidden" EC requirements and academic requirements for being a good applicant have gotten more rigorous over the years.

literally every physician I have shadowed didnt even think shadowing was a think that was required now. Like none of them volunteered, and told me basically back then all you needed to be a healthy applicant was a 3.5-3.6 GPA and a 30 MCAT. if you could get that you could get into any MD school aside from top tiers.

For what it is worth, I think the application process is incredibly flawed. I mean sure it influences us to volunteer and preview the medical field before applying, but its gotten to the point where it is unhealthy. For example, at my school it is cutthroat in things like grades and classroom performance. In fact, there was a group of kids who basically had a cheating ring all the way through two years of chemistry just to have a better GPA, and blowing the curve for people who actually try. It also has became a trend that premeds do ECs less for the goal of helping others and learning about the medical field, and more just to check a box on AMCAS so they wont be at a disadvantage.

The GPA/MCAT averages for matriculation is increasing as well. Since 2007 the average GPA has increased from 3.64 to 3.7 and sGPA has increased from 3.57 to 3.64. MCAT has increased by roughly 1 point. If we extrapolate this trend backwards (at least for GPA) it would likely show that the average GPA for an applicant in the 90s would be much lower than the average GPA of an applicant in 2016. Does that mean that the quality of doctor's was worse 25 years ago? Of course not. All that shows is that the application process has gotten needlessly more stressful, strenuous and rigorous and will continue on that trend until someone intervenes. It will eventually set unrealistic expectations for applicants in the future.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321494/data/factstablea16.pdf

 

[Goro]

Unfortunately, yes.

Shoot does that means you are slightlty over the half century mark then?😛

 

[Chromium Surfer]

Unfortunately, yes.

If your posts are any indication I'm sure you're still spry 😀

 

[619959]

Unfortunately, yes.

Based on your posts, I can tell that you are still young in heart

 

[Donald Juan]

After every block of 40 questions I take a few minutes to sip coffee and wind down for a few, dropping a bit of salt on SDN while I relax. I've already cranked through 160 UW questions in the last 8 hours (with review), so it's not like I'm being unproductive 😛

Jesus Christ. Go watch a movie and relax. Eat a big meal. 4 blocks the day before the test?? You really are mad.

 

[Mad Jack]

Jesus Christ. Go watch a movie and relax. Eat a big meal. 4 blocks the day before the test?? You really are mad.

And another one to go. Kek...

Thinking pizza and Diablo after that.

 

[Goro]

😍

Based on your posts, I can tell that you are still young in heart

 

[Goro]

If your posts are any indication I'm sure you're still spry 😀

 

[bc65]

Unfortunately, yes.

As they say, it's not unfortunate when you consider the alternative.

 

[Law2Doc]

Risk of being sent to and maybe killed in Vietnam or having to be a more competitive applicant -- who had it better...hmmm, tough one...

 

[Marcion]

Here's the best MCAT data I could find:
-snip-

Interesting. Then again, was the MCAT the same beast in 1975? In 1975 the DNA double-helix model would have been younger than most of the applicants. How much biochem was on the test back then? The amount of biology knowledge you have to assimilate has grown massively over the last few decades. Perhaps in the 70s you needed to memorize more obscure O-chem reactions instead, IDK. We've still gone from one science section to two-and-a-half on the 2015.

Whatever it was like then, it seems to not have been grueling enough to leave an impression or even a memory in the older doctors I talk to.

Risk of being sent to and maybe killed in Vietnam or having to be a more competitive applicant -- who had it better...hmmm, tough one...

Hell, I'd make that trade if I could just get the tuition prices they paid (adjust it for inflation if you like, still wouldn't care). Risk of death in Vietnam is, in the scheme of things, about like the risk of being hit by a car crossing the street. Coughing up hundreds of thousands of dollars to medical schools, OTOH, is a certainty. Didn't college/med students get deferred anyway?

I'm not "butthurt" about working hard as some people have been accusing me of. I would not have made a 520 on the MCAT if I had a problem with working hard. I am, however, frustrated with working hard for nothing. I paid $4000 (what were app fees like back in the day, BTW?) to apply to 25 schools, and 24 of them wouldn't even give me the time of day, or even tell me in what ways I could improve to meet their exacting standards for an interview invite when I called to ask. "Talk to your premed advisor" they said, the premed advisor who's had the job for 5 months in that office with the revolving door.

Yeah, yeah, life isn't fair, I'm so entitled and I should be happy I have all my limbs and don't have Ebola, rabble rabble etc etc. Still doesn't make it sting less to hear everything you've done is worthless and no-one gives enough of a **** to tell you why.

 

[I'm No Superman]

Risk of death in Vietnam is, in the scheme of things, about like the risk of being hit by a car crossing the street.

Found this humorous, so...

the odds of being struck by a car in the United States is about 1 in 4,292
The odds of dying as the result of being struck by a car are about 1 in 47,273. https://www.reference.com/math/odds-getting-hit-car-8153e02f5ac36140

The odds of dying in Vietnam: 58,156 total deaths / 9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the Vietnam Era (5 August 1965-7 May 1975) = .0063. 1/.0063 = ~1 in 156 chance of dying.
www.mrfa.org/vnstats.htm

 

[bc65]

Interesting. Then again, was the MCAT the same beast in 1975? In 1975 the DNA double-helix model would have been younger than most of the applicants. How much biochem was on the test back then? The amount of biology knowledge you have to assimilate has grown massively over the last few decades. Perhaps in the 70s you needed to memorize more obscure O-chem reactions, IDK. We've still gone from one science section to two-and-a-half on the 2015.

Ok, now I understand. Everyone who applied to medical school before you did is an idiot. Intelligence didn't evolve until you got to college.

I'm not "butthurt" about working hard as some people have been accusing me of. I would not have made a 520 on the MCAT if I had a problem with working hard. I am, however, frustrated with working hard for nothing. I paid $4000 (what were app fees like back in the day, BTW?) to apply to 25 schools, and 24 of them wouldn't even give me the time of day, or even tell me in what ways I could improve to meet their exacting standards for an interview invite when I called to ask. "Talk to your premed advisor" they said, the premed advisor who's had the job for 5 months in that office with the revolving door.

My guess is that your personality and attitude came shining through your application, making an interview unnecessary.

 

[Marcion]

Found this humorous, so...

the odds of being struck by a car in the United States is about 1 in 4,292
The odds of dying as the result of being struck by a car are about 1 in 47,273. https://www.reference.com/math/odds-getting-hit-car-8153e02f5ac36140

The odds of dying in Vietnam: 58,156 total deaths / 9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the Vietnam Era (5 August 1965-7 May 1975) = .0063. 1/.0063 = ~1 in 156 chance of dying.
www.mrfa.org/vnstats.htm

...after being unlucky enough to "win" the draft lottery and not be able to get a deferment. As best I can tell from the Google, draft number 195/365 was the highest called, so maybe a 2/3 chance, maybe 1/2 after deferments. 1/2 * 1/156 = 1/312. That's pretty close to.. get this... the 1 in 358 chance of being killed by a firearm in the US in 2013.

But OK, I was definitely over-optimistic in my odds estimation there. I'm a (wannabe) doctor, not a statistician Jim! 😛

 

[Marcion]

Ok, now I understand. Everyone who applied to medical school before you did is an idiot. Intelligence didn't evolve until you got to college.

NO, I'm not saying that at all. They all worked hard and did their best in the system that existed. What I'm trying to say is, is a test that tests for "general information" the same as one that could ask you to ID the epimers of glucose?

My guess is that your personality and attitude came shining through your application, making an interview unnecessary.

Well, I have always been a bit of a cynical person. The bitterness and self-loathing have been a more recent development, brought on by the extended period of beating my head against the wall that was my last app cycle. Would you like to take a look at my personal statement (not sarcasm), I honestly could use every set of eyeballs I could get given my worthless pre-med advisor. She told me not to pre-write secondaries!!! WTF!