Teaching with a PsyD from CSPP?

[MSW Hopeful]

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Hi,

I know that there has been tons of discussion on CSPP/ Alliant but I utilized the search function, read all of the threads and haven't seen my questions addressed. Up until very recently I have been researching MSW programs with the hopes of ultimately becoming a LCSW. Lately, I have been thinking that a PsyD may be a great option as well because from what I have read the Vail model is the scholar-practitioner model. I believe that practice without research is blind, and research without practice is empty. So, if my research is correct, the PsyD is best for me and my interests.

I know that CSPP (and professional schools in general) tend to receive a beating in the public opinion realm but I am somewhat interested in the school for several reasons. I have what I think are decent stats 3.6 gpa, 1300 GRE but with the competitiveness of PsyD programs and the late date that I'm applying I wouldn't get funded anywhere anyway. The cost for a professional school is not much greater than I would incur at a university based school so money isn't a deal-breaker for me either way. My concern is the ability to garner decent internships and employment after graduation. I am most interested in doing clinical work, however, in the future I also want to teach at some point.

My question is this- with all of the biases that so many people have against PsyD's in general is it even worse if the PsyD is from a professional school? I am thinking of applying to the San Diego campus which I know has a respected PhD program but is the PsyD from that campus respected as well? Also, I am not very interested in research as a major foci of my career at at this point, but admittedly, since people change, in the future that may become something that I'd want to do. I have been successful in undergrad research courses and found them moderately enjoyable. Can a PsyD from CSPP get any jobs in research? Is teaching on the university level possible? I don't plan on living in California forever primarily because the area is so over populated by mental health professions, but I'm wondering if the job outlook is promising for PsyD's in general. I have looked at the Bureau of Labor and Statistics and it seems like the outlook is good, but from what I have read on this site it seems like a PsyD from a professional school will be making minimum wage or unable to get a decent job . If the BLS is correct then it seems very feasible to pay off the debt incurred by such an expensive degree but if it's wrong than I want to know before accumulating 100+ thousand dollars of loans. I am hoping that is just the opinion of opponents of professional schools and not factual but if it is factual and based on something other than personal bias and uneducated opinion I'd like to know. Any other insights or helpful opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!!

 

[docma]

Look into their PhD. program. Like it or not, the Ph.D. will continue to get some preference in academic settings, so if teaching is definitely a goal, why not take that track (or look at Ph.D social work programs)?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

We should differentiate between teaching a class here or there (adjunct) and having a more formalized career in academia (assistant/associate/full-time/tenure). I think the former shouldn't be an issue, unless you are trying to teach at a Tier-I or similar program that may have a strong preference for a Ph.D. The latter could be an issue, though it depends on where and what kind of productivity you should during your training. If you can show a good track record of publishing, presenting, and teaching....you'll have a better shot at a full-time position. If you are looking primarily at teaching and/or a job in academia, I'd strongly suggest a Ph.D. from a traditional university program.

 

[MSW Hopeful]

Thank you for your responses! I will look into their PhD program.

Docma, from what I understand, the PhD in Social Work isn't designed to provide advanced psychotherapy skills but is geared more toward research experience. I am totally fine with getting a degree with a clinical focus that also teaches research but I'm really not interested in pursuing a doctoral degree that isn't going to provide me with advanced clinical skills so that kind of eliminates the PhD in Social Work for me.

Therapist4Change, I appreciate your advice as well. From the outside looking in, adjunct professors do a LOT of work for low pay and without many of the perks of full-time professors. I may be wrong about that across the board as I am only guessing based the experiences of some friends who are adjuncts. I want to go into therapy full-time but in the future have the option of being a full-time professor doing individual therapy part time. Do you think that with a CSPP Phd I would be able to do that? Or do you think that I should wait a year, get more research experience and then go to a traditional program? Money aside, in your opinion, is it not worth it to get a PhD or PsyD from a professional school if I have interests in eventually being a full-time professor?

I really don't want to open the door for a professional school/traditional school argument. I know from reading this forum that lots of people are very touchy about this issue. I am not speaking against anyone's decisions or trying to discount anyone's choices/experiences. I am just looking for honest answers, experiences and opinions. I am really just trying to make the most important decision of my academic life from an educated perspective.

Thanks!

 

[phillydave]

If you have interest in being a full-time professor at a university (not community college), I would think you'd need to go to a non-professional school Ph.D. program. For a tenure-track position, I think that would almost definitely have to be the case.

Not exactly-- I know several Psy.D.'s at universities in the Philadelphia area that are Assistant and Associate Professors.

 

[jnine]

Not exactly-- I know several Psy.D.'s at universities in the Philadelphia area that are Assistant and Associate Professors.

I think that the stats would show an overwhelming majority of clinical psych profs have phd's from university programs. To maximize your chances of success in an already competetive field, it's clear what path i would take, given the option of course.

Things are probably changing a bit, and what you make of your education that is more important than the place you went to school or wheather it's a psyD/PhD. But, if teaching is your interest a university Ph.D. is the clear place to go. A respected psyD is a secondary option. Out of the dozens and dozens of profs' bios i've researched i've only seen one asst. prof with a professional school degree, and it was a PhD.

 

[phillydave]

I daresay that the stats would show an overwhelming majority of clinical psych profs have phd's from university programs.

Things are probably changing a bit, and what you make of your education that is more important than the place you went to school. But, if teaching is in your interest a university Ph.D. is the clear place to go, and a respected psyD is a secondary option. Out of the dozens and dozens of profs' bios i've researched i've only seen one asst. prof with a degree from CSPP.

Agreed. The PhD is hands-down the best road to teaching at a university, however, it is not by any means a rarity to find a PsyD as an associate or assistant professor. There are several PsyD's at each university in my area teaching at that level.

 

[jnine]

Agreed. The PhD is hands-down the best road to teaching at a university, however, it is not by any means a rarity to find a PsyD as an associate or assistant professor. There are several PsyD's at each university in my area teaching at that level.

wow. mabye things are changing faster than i thought. can you paste links or the schools? cheers.

 

[phillydave]

wow. mabye things are changing faster than i thought. can you paste links or the schools? cheers.

Sure, just check out the faculty lists in the graduate departments of:

Widener University: www.widener.edu
PCOM: www.pcom.edu
LaSalle University: www.lasalle.edu
Chestnut Hill College: www.chc.edu

 

[Annakei]

Sure, just check out the faculty lists in the graduate departments of:

Widener University: www.widener.edu
PCOM: www.pcom.edu
LaSalle University: www.lasalle.edu
Chestnut Hill College: www.chc.edu

Add GWU to that list as well:

http://www.gwu.edu/~psyd/PsydFacultyStaff.html

Hence why I ignore the debate around PsyD vs PhD, things are indeed changing. I don't want to pursue a tenure track position (at this time but that may change down the line) but to have the option to teach so in a PsyD program is fine for me.

 

[phillydave]

Add GWU to that list as well:

http://www.gwu.edu/~psyd/PsydFacultyStaff.html

Hence why I ignore the debate around PsyD vs PhD, things are indeed changing. I don't want to pursue a tenure track position (at this time but that may change down the line) but to have the option to teach so in a PsyD program is fine for me.

Bingo.
Oh, and add Rutgers too.

 

[NeedMoreSleep08]

Maybe this is a dumb question but how is a Psy.D different from a Ph.D from a Professional school? Does this mean that Alliant puts equal emphasis on research and clinical work if you are enrolled in the Ph.D track? The people I have known who have done their training at Alliant have the bare minimum of research experience. A Ph.D from Alliant seems quite odd to me.

 

[Metta]

You may find it helpful to refine your question still further, and consider the sorts of programs you'd want to teach in. Thinking back to when I was researching programs to apply to, I don't recall seeing any PsyD's teaching at university PhD programs; however, there were a number of PsyD's teaching at professional schools' PsyD programs. For whatever that's worth....

 

[PsyDr]

in my experiecne, it really depends on where you want to teach and to what degree.


1) university- depending on the situation, you might pick up some adjunct/associate type work. in my experience, the type of classes they want you to teach are the boring ones: intro, intro stats, etc. if the area is filled with psychologists, then this work will be just as competitive as clinical work.

2) community colleges- they are just giving away these positions. if you can tolerate this group, then i guess you can teach there.

3) medical schools- what you teach is dictated by what you research. getting hired to do research is dictated by how much you have published in your specific area.

4) university based grad school- largely based upon research.

5) professional schools- i have no idea.


i personally don't see how someone would publish to any meaningful degree from CSPP or Alliant which do not seem to have labs.

 

[DrMaxPsyD]

That's a different ball game, though.

If the professor job is mostly teaching, it won't pay all that well, and, if it is a major university, it probably won't be tenure-track. I admit I didn't consider faculty at a PsyD program in my post. I suppose I'm so myopic on this issue that I didn't consider that being a "professor."

If the professor job is teaching with some clinical work, or clinical work with some teaching (e.g., like in an academic medical center environment), that may be tenure-track, but the overwhelming majority in these roles are PhDs..

If the professor job is research, teaching, running a practicum team, having graduate students, and tenure, at a non-professional school university, that's an overwhelming majority PhD job.

Adjunct teaching could be a PsyD or even a masters level instructor at any program, really.

Where have you seen Masters level professionals teaching in a doctoral or even masters level psychology program? I think you take too much pride in reducing the PsyD to being a just another masters. Heaven forbid a PsyD actually teach in a tenure track position in a PhD program.

Are you also saying that you didnt see PsyDs teaching at a PsyD program as being a true professor? Please explain that comment.

 

[positivepsych]

I wanted to clarify that CSPP's Ph.D. program is NOT well-respected.
It's essentially regarded the same as their Psy.D. program. I've known several people who've gone through the CSPP Ph.D., and while they do more research than the Psy.D.s, their knowledge and research is a joke compared to anyone who went to a reputable university-based research-oriented Ph.D. program. Sure, there are exceptions to this rule, but I'm talking on average.

It's just that the Ph.D. is more familiar and reputable in academia. So if someone is scanning your email/CV without really looking at your credentials, the PhD looks better. But the CSPP part doesn't help.

To answer your question, can you teach with a CSPP degree? Yes and No. You will end up teaching at other professional schools/PsyD programs, lower-tier graduate programs, and community colleges. But you'll probably never be allowed to teach at major universities like anywhere in the University of California system. So basically, you'll never teach at a university that anyone in the public knows or respects. If you're fine with that, go ahead, but why limit your options that much if teaching is very important to you?

 

[phillydave]

I wanted to clarify that CSPP's Ph.D. program is NOT well-respected.
It's essentially regarded the same as their Psy.D. program. I've known several people who've gone through the CSPP Ph.D., and while they do more research than the Psy.D.s, their knowledge and research is a joke compared to anyone who went to a reputable university-based research-oriented Ph.D. program. Sure, there are exceptions to this rule, but I'm talking on average.

It's just that the Ph.D. is more familiar and reputable in academia. So if someone is scanning your email/CV without really looking at your credentials, the PhD looks better. But the CSPP part doesn't help.

To answer your question, can you teach with a CSPP degree? Yes and No. You will end up teaching at professional schools like CSPP/Alliant, Agrosy, Widener, lower-tier graduate programs, and community colleges. But you'll probably never be allowed to teach at major universities like anywhere in the University of California system. So basically, you'll never teach at a university that anyone in the public knows or respects. If you're fine with that, go ahead, but why limit your options that much if teaching is very important to you?

Let the backlash begin...

 

[Jezebel09]

My recommendation to you is to take your time, do some more research on PsyD versus PhD in psychology versus PhD in social work. With the economy, this is a tough admissions year. Many more students are applying to graduate programs.

Look at the websites for psychology departments where you would like to perhaps one day work. Do they have PsyDs on staff as faculty? Many schools do not, but I have seen some.

Here are two books that may be helpful to you as you begin to look into programs:

American Psychological Association's Graduate Study in Psychology

Insider's Guide to Graduate Programs in Clinical and Counseling Psychology

They were both excellent starting points for me.

When I started looking into programs a few years ago, I was kind of where you are at now. I wasn't sure of the difference between PsyD and PhD, etc. I would recommend taking your time and learning more about yoru options, visit department websites and figure out what type of research you want to do (because all schools require some research), and get a clearer picture of exactly what you want to do with your degree.

Had I gone to school a few years ago (back when I didn't have a firm grasp of the various offerings), I would have made the wrong choice.

Right now, the PhD is still the gold standard if you want to become faculty. Academia is research driven, so it makes sense that academia would gravitate to people who have the PhD. (Are there exceptions? Yes. Will there be more in the future? Probably. But, you need to be aware of the bias.)

That's just my opinion.

 

[Jezebel09]

MSW Hopeful,

You might also want to read points #3 and #4 in The Ugly Truth about the Clinical Psychology PhD by GabaTherapy.

The individual makes some points that might interest you.

 

[MSW Hopeful]

I really want to thank everyone for all of the insights, opinions, information, resources and advice that you have shared. It is clear that I definitely need to do more research. I appreciate all of your help!

 

[deleted176373]

I might add that with a 1300 GRE and a 3.6 GPA, you should not be considering unfunded opportunities unless you have some other overriding reason that restricts you to those programs (geographic constraints, etc). t sounds like you have solid stats, get the best education that someone else can afford for you. I would give the Ph.D. programs a second look, especially the balanced or clinically oriented ones.

If you have your heart set on a Psy.D., that's cool, but throw your hat in the ring at Baylor or Rutgers as well as the professional schools if your circumstances allow for it. Funding is a wonderful thing, and it looks as if you have the stats to be in the running (certainly at Baylor, possibly at Rutgers.) I would suggest that you look at the data between the average debt between funded and unfunded students. There is a BIG difference in the money situation. Although I am in a Ph.D. program I will graduate with $0 graduate school debt, and I am willing to bet that most CSPP students have over $100k in debt.

Mark

PS - One could argue that I am an indentured servant, and that's why I will have no debt.

 

[docma]

Don't overlook Counseling Psych programs either. There are fewer but they are smaller and typically fund.