Tell me affirmative action isn't as bad in med. schools compared to undergrad

[BigRedPremed]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Asians score higher than whites on the sciences due to work ethic. If white kids had parents who were as much obsessed with education as Asian parents are, Asians would not be scoring higher on the sciences. Work ethic doesn't help as much with VR.

I started to learn my first foreign language when I was 5 years old and I know it as well as native speakers of that language. Asians who grew up in this country and learned English at an early age (i.e. before they were about 10 years old) are not really at any disadvanage when it comes to MCAT VR.

I began to learn English when I was almost 19 and the only disadvantage I would claim is my reading speed even though I was not exposed to American culture and way of living until I was 19.

Very true. It is more of a cultural rather than a socioeconomic thing. That's why poor Asians and Whites still outscore rich Blacks. I went to a school that was 80% black up through fifth grade (the school has since been shut down for underachievement) and took the SAT in the seventh grade under JHU's Talent Search thingy and still scored slightly above average (1100 I believe). We lived for years in an impoverished African American neighborhood and I had to attend the substandard school mentioned above. Education and economics is clearly only part of the equation. Unfortunately, culture is even tougher to change.

 

[BrokenGlass]

Almost all research is biased. The conclusions tend to favor those who directly or indirectly paid for this research.

 

[Drogba]

So he is saying that minorities and low income whites are making the close to the same scores on the SAT if you only count the "hard-rated" questions?

I could offer a simple explanation for that..

no his revision focuses on the hard questions. anyway my point was to show that there is reputable evidence of race bias in some standardized tests.

Another interesting study:

"Does the LSAT Mirror or Magnify Racial and Ethnic Differences in Educational Attainment?: a Study of Equally Achieving "Elite" College Students "


The results indicate that among law school applicants with essentially the same performance in college, students of color encounter a substantial performance difference on the LSAT compared to their White classmates. These gaps are most severe for African American and Chicano/Latino applicants. A second round of matching, controlling for choice of major within each college or university, does nothing to reduce these performance differences on the LSAT. The results of this study therefore counter the claims of several standardized testing enthusiasts and affirmative action critics that the LSAT provides a neutral method of assessing academic achievement.

you can look up the study if you want to examine his methodology.

 

[BigRedPremed]

I concur. This may be a sweeping generalization, but from what I've seen, most blacks who apply to college are under little disadvantage. What we really need to do is fix lower education (elementary school, middle school, etc), thereby encouraging more disadvantaged blacks into education and ultimately, college.

But, there's an even easier way to solve this problem. Affirmative Action can be effective if implemented in a manner that completely disregards race all together. By evaluating a candidate based on socioeconomic attributes i.e. neighborhood, income level, school, geographical location, etc. rather than solely on the color of one's skin, we can truly help those who really need it.

Except the issue isn't strictly about disadvantages. On average, rich URMs with all the advantages in the world STILL score lower than poor whites and asians.

 

[cliquesh]

MCAT is an invalid exam anyway. There seems to be a remarkable amount of people improving their score by 5 points or more after retaking the exam. If the mcat was really testing you intellectual abilities, or something to that effect, you shouldn't be able to make such drastic improvements with studying, maybe 1 point, but not 5 or more.

 

[Drogba]

Except the issue isn't strictly about disadvantages. On average, rich URMs with all the advantages in the world STILL score lower than poor whites and asians.

Data? Sounds like BS to me, like your previous comment about no URMs speaking about improving primary and secondary education.

You are making some pretty big statements here, you should qualify them with evidence instead of assumptions.

 

[Drogba]

MCAT is an invalid exam anyway. There seems to be a remarkable amount of people improving their score by 5 points or more after retaking the exam. If the mcat was really testing you intellectual abilities, or something to that effect, you shouldn't be able to make such drastic improvements with studying, maybe 1 point, but not 5 or more.

The MCAT is not meant as an aptitude test like the SAT or IQ tests.

 

[BrokenGlass]

MCAT is an invalid exam anyway. There seems to be a remarkable amount of people improving their score by 5 points or more after retaking the exam. If the mcat was really testing you intellectual abilities, or something to that effect, you shouldn't be able to make such drastic improvements with studying, maybe 1 point, but not 5 or more.

Some people (e.g. snowpearl) had 10 point jumps in their score in the less than a month. I think she went from 31 to 41.

 

[nutrition]

MCAT is an invalid exam anyway. There seems to be a remarkable amount of people improving their score by 5 points or more after retaking the exam. If the mcat was really testing you intellectual abilities, or something to that effect, you shouldn't be able to make such drastic improvements with studying, maybe 1 point, but not 5 or more.

Have you ever taken the MCAT? If so, did you receive the little pamphlet that comes with the test results explaining that most people DO NOT increase their test score on taking it a second time. I don't have my pamphlet on me, otherwise I would quote you the exacts stats. Perhaps, someone could find it on the AAMC website.

 

[BrokenGlass]

Have you ever taken the MCAT? If so, did you receive the little pamphlet that comes with the test results explaining that most people DO NOT increase their test score on taking it a second time. I don't have my pamphlet on me, otherwise I would quote you the exacts stats. Perhaps, someone could find it on the AAMC website.

Those data are for paper-and-pencil MCAT. The data for computer-based MCAT are not out yet.

 

[frikarika]

Black admittees had substantially lower MCAT scores and undergraduate science GPAs compared to other groups; Hispanic admittees’ scores and grades were higher; and whites’ and Asians’ the highest (with Asian GPAs slightly higher than whites’).

During the four years for which we received data, 11,647 Hispanic, Asian, and white students (or nearly 3000 students each year) who earned higher undergraduate grades and scored higher on the MCAT than the median black admittee were nonetheless rejected.

The odds ratio favoring black applicants over whites was 21 to 1 in 2005.

Likewise, differences in probabilities of admission in 2005 were dramatic. For instance, students with an MCAT total of 41 and an undergraduate science GPA of 3.6 have these probabilities of admission: 74 percent if black and 43 percent if Hispanic, but only 12 percent if white and 6 percent if Asian. For those with a 42 MCAT and 3.7 GPA: 85 percent if black and 59 percent if Hispanic, but only 21 percent if white and 11 percent if Asian. Finally, for those with a 43 MCAT and at 3.8 GPA, black applicants have a 9 out of 10 chance of admission (91 percent) and Hispanics a 3 out of 4 chance (73 percent), but whites have only a 1 out of 3 chance (33 percent) and Asians only a 1 out of 5 chance (19 percent).

Gaps in USMLE Step 1 scores — this is a licensing exam taken after the first two years of medical school — parallel racial/ethnic differences in entering qualifications. White and Asian median scores are substantially higher than 75th-percentile black scores.


I think the mcat scores have a typo. I think they meant 21, 22 and 23, not sure though

Can you elaborate on your calculations or at least give your source? Those numbers seem like BS. As mentioned earlier 44% of whites were accepted for the 2007 class vs 26% for blacks. (http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2007/mcatgparaceeth07.htm)

 

[ChubbyChaser]

Can you elaborate on your calculations or at least give your source? Those numbers seem like BS. As mentioned earlier 44% of whites were accepted for the 2007 class vs 26% for blacks. (http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2007/mcatgparaceeth07.htm)

I didnt calculate it, it was a study, and its 44 vs 36.

You have to take into account that the average white applicant has significantly higher scores then the average Black matriculant.

I already gave it once, but here it is: http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OWI1YTJiMzIxOGI1NWJmOWU5ODc5YWU4YjFhODU0NjA=

 

[Begaster]

I completely agree. I mean the MCAT used to be given on WHITE paper! Talk about passive agressive. I heard that was why they switched to a computer based test.

My computer monitor was black. WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?!

 

[LizzyM]

A little over a year ago, I started a thread with a URM factoid and I offer it here in up-dated fashion:

Q: If no URM were admitted to medical school, what proportion of those non-URM who do not matriculate in a given year (are not admitted to any school) would still be without an offer of admission?

A: The proportion of non-matriculants who would still be sitting out in the cold if no URM were admitted to any US medical school (including Howard and the other historically black institutions) is ~86%.

About 18,339 white and Asian applicants do not matriculate at any allopathic school. At the same time, 2,505 URM (Hispanics, Black, Native American and Native Hawaiians) did matriculate. If we were to give those 2,505 seats to whites or Asians, there would still be 15,834 non-URM who wouldn't matriculate.

Rather than thinking that the top scores make the best medical students and best doctors, imagine if their was a threshold effect. What if adcoms picked applicants who had scores that suggested that they were "good enough" to master the material and from that pool, selected applicants based on an assessment of the the entire application including scholarly activity, leadership, character, evidence of a life of service and life-long learning, etc.

 

[Drogba]

I didnt calculate it, it was a study, and its 44 vs 36.

You have to take into account that the average white applicant has significantly higher scores then the average Black matriculant.

I already gave it once, but here it is: http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OWI1YTJiMzIxOGI1NWJmOWU5ODc5YWU4YjFhODU0NjA=

http://www.ceousa.org/

Nice source you found. The "studies" were not published in a peer review journal from what I can deduce. Perhaps they are valid but they only look at one school in the entire US. You are providing extreme data to exaggerated the case you are trying to make. Nevertheless, it is pretty obvious that there is a significant divide between matriculants' prior academic performance.

 

[gsquared]

I agree with many of the previous posters- this is a debate that has no clear-cut answer, and it also provokes strong emotional responses.

Just so there is no confusion, I am a caucasian male from the midwest who grew up in a completely average middle-class home. I should be the poster child for anti-aa, and I would be lying if I said that the system isn't somewhat frustrating...how can somebody with lower stats get in to medical school based purely on the color of their skin?

The answer is simple- it isn't really a racial issue. MLK is often quoted when the topic of race is discussed, and he did note that "I have a dream that one day my four little children will be judged not on the color of their skin, but on the content of their character". Most people don't know that King later advocated for a not-so-colorblind policy of equal outcome (essentially a form of socialism, but he also was an advocate for aa-like policies).

You can't expect an entire social group to recover from 300+ years of socioeconomic repression in the span of a few decades. King was right when he said that some adjustments are needed. The system is far from perfect, but it does address an issue that is currently more important than a few people (like me) getting into medical school. URM's bring valuable cultural perspectives to medicine, and to assume that they are simply tools for obtaining greater ethnic equality is irrational. There is more to an individual than their statistics, and when various ethnic groups have unequal opportunities or resources it is unreasonable to hold them to identical standards. As time progresses, the current aa policies should level the playing field and move us closer to a meritocracy.

 

[BigRedPremed]

Data? Sounds like BS to me, like your previous comment about no URMs speaking about improving primary and secondary education.

You are making some pretty big statements here, you should qualify them with evidence instead of assumptions.

Read The Affirmative Action Hoax by Steve Farron. He breaks down the data.

If you search online, you will find numerous sources saying the same thing. I believe a 1995 UC study came to the same conclusion.

The question is how you interpret it. Racists will say that the fact blacks are outscored by Asians and Whites in the same income bracket signals biological superiority. I don't think so. However, I do think the difference in test scores is due to more than simply socioeconomics. Like I said, it's cultural.

 

[littlealex]

Dey Terk Er Jerbs!!!

Everyone Into The Pile!

 

[bozz]

I agree with many of the previous posters- this is a debate that has no clear-cut answer, and it also provokes strong emotional responses.

Just so there is no confusion, I am a caucasian male from the midwest who grew up in a completely average middle-class home. I should be the poster child for anti-aa, and I would be lying if I said that the system isn't somewhat frustrating...how can somebody with lower stats get in to medical school based purely on the color of their skin?

The answer is simple- it isn't really a racial issue. MLK is often quoted when the topic of race is discussed, and he did note that "I have a dream that one day my four little children will be judged not on the color of their skin, but on the content of their character". Most people don't know that King later advocated for a not-so-colorblind policy of equal outcome (essentially a form of socialism, but he also was an advocate for aa-like policies).

You can't expect an entire social group to recover from 300+ years of socioeconomic repression in the span of a few decades. King was right when he said that some adjustments are needed. The system is far from perfect, but it does address an issue that is currently more important than a few people (like me) getting into medical school. URM's bring valuable cultural perspectives to medicine, and to assume that they are simply tools for obtaining greater ethnic equality is irrational. There is more to an individual than their statistics, and when various ethnic groups have unequal opportunities or resources it is unreasonable to hold them to identical standards. As time progresses, the current aa policies should level the playing field and move us closer to a meritocracy.

sounds nice to hear...

but tell me why both rich and poor blacks (for example) still perform poorly compared to other races... I really doubt they are "haunted" by their pasts

 

[LizzyM]

tell me why both rich and poor blacks (for example) still perform poorly compared to other races... I really doubt they are "haunted" by their pasts

Every hear of self-fulfilling prophesies? Tell people of a specific group (blacks, women, etc) that their group scores lower on this test than others do and they will score lower. Many people walk into those tested psyched out to do poorly. 🙁

 

[badasshairday]

Read The Affirmative Action Hoax by Steve Farron. He breaks down the data.

If you search online, you will find numerous sources saying the same thing. I believe a 1995 UC study came to the same conclusion.

The question is how you interpret it. Racists will say that the fact blacks are outscored by Asians and Whites in the same income bracket signals biological superiority. I don't think so. However, I do think the difference in test scores is due to more than simply socioeconomics. Like I said, it's cultural.

yep, its cultural. my friend is ethiopian, so he would be a URM when applying to med school. He came here when he was 18, so he had the old countries hardcore work ethic on getting an education. He is here on his own, so he would be in a low income bracket, however his MCAT score is a 34, and GPA 3.8, wayyyyy above average.

 

[badasshairday]

ANother cultural point to be noted about how Asians score higher in the PS and BS, but lower in VR. This is because culturally it has been instilled that SCIENCE/MATH are worthy of studying, not english/humanities.

 

[BigRedPremed]

yep, its cultural. my friend is ethiopian, so he would be a URM when applying to med school. He came here when he was 18, so he had the old countries hardcore work ethic on getting an education. He is here on his own, so he would be in a low income bracket, however his MCAT score is a 34, and GPA 3.8, wayyyyy above average.

Yep. That is why black immigrants generally due much better than native African Americans. It is now found that a large proportion of URMs at top colleges (and thus reaping the benefits of AA) are black immigrants. Some have suggested stopping AA for African immigrants and only using it for native African Americans. That would involve another lowering of standards.

 

[BigRedPremed]

Every hear of self-fulfilling prophesies? Tell people of a specific group (blacks, women, etc) that their group scores lower on this test than others do and they will score lower. Many people walk into those tested psyched out to do poorly. 🙁

Stereotype threat as we call it in psychology.

So what is affirmative action doing? Telling a group of people that their group scores lower and therefore they need a boost. It's not just telling the URM's, it's telling EVERYONE that blacks and hispanics score lower and need an advantage.

 

[Phenol312]

 

[ChubbyChaser]

Every hear of self-fulfilling prophesies? Tell people of a specific group (blacks, women, etc) that their group scores lower on this test than others do and they will score lower. Many people walk into those tested psyched out to do poorly. 🙁

So white men really can jump!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is just ppl have been telling them for years that they cant.

 

[BigRedPremed]

So white men really can jump!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is just ppl have been telling them for years that they cant.

lol

 

[ChubbyChaser]

Ya know, we can rant and rave about this all we want, but in the end I think 90% of it all comes down to work ethic. Stemming off a previous poster, parents of certain ethnic groups tend to instill different degrees of work ethics in their children. Some parents (a bit of a generalization but asians) demand excellence in their children academically and others are content with their children getting by, and would rather see them dunk a basketball or score a TD rather than make an A on a history exam. Am I generalizing?? Somewhat, but IMO i think it is true.

 

[BigRedPremed]

Ya know, we can rant and rave about this all we want, but in the end I think 90% of it all comes down to work ethic. Stemming off a previous poster, parents of certain ethnic groups tend to instill different degrees of work ethics in their children. Some parents (a bit of a generalization but asians) demand excellence in their children academically and others are content with their children getting by, and would rather see them dunk a basketball or score a TD rather than make an A on a history exam. Am I generalizing?? Somewhat, but IMO i think it is true.

You are 100% correct that 90% of it is attributable to work ethic (did I say that right?). That's what I've been saying.

But, don't you think it's a problem if a parent is telling their kids they should be aiming for the NBA? That's how we end up with the situation we have now: black kids growing up in poor neighborhoods wearing $150 Nikes. I think the question is how can we change the attitudes of the parents?

 

[ChubbyChaser]

You are 100% correct that 90% of it is attributable to work ethic (did I say that right?). That's what I've been saying.

But, don't you think it's a problem if a parent is telling their kids they should be aiming for the NBA? That's how we end up with the situation we have now: black kids growing up in poor neighborhoods wearing $150 Nikes. I think the question is how can we change the attitudes of the parents?

Exactly, how we can do that? I have no idea, and I dont think anyone else does either.

 

[BigRedPremed]

Exactly, how we can do that? I have no idea, and I dont think anyone else does either.

Cool. After 131 posts, we're back to square one. Another AA debate success!

 

[banana5]

I've thought about this issue for a long time and took a class taught by a very liberal professor (you can guess what sort of research he presented). If someone could address these points respectfully/intelligently I'd be very interested to hear what you have to say:

I am against affirmative action for the following reasons:

1) I do not dispute that minorities have been discriminated against in the past, are still discriminated against, and are thus at a disadvantage in many ways in our society. Likewise I don't dispute that it's appalling how few minorities there are in prominent positions, etc., and think that it's ludicrous to suggest that simply "work ethic" or "genes" or some other simplistic idea is to blame for this. Society is to blame for this, and as society we need to do something to level the playing field, so to speak.

However, I can think of no justification for why minorities who have been disadvantaged in education should have a leg up on non-minorities who have been equally disadvantaged. What possible argument is there against a program that is race-blind, and simply takes into consideration what sort of opportunities the applicant had growing up? Minorities are unfairly concentrated in the most disadvantaged (economically, etc.) part of society, so this sort of program would disproportionately help minorities anyway.

Side note: as time goes on, more and more minorities will be helped by affirmative action and will hopefully be able to be successful in their careers, etc., and thus become economically "advantaged." As the number of minorities in such a position grows, the need for a race-blind affirmative action program will become more and more obvious. As the program currently stands, minorities from wealthy families get the same "help" as those from disadvantaged families. In fact, I would argue that they get even more help, because schools want to keep their numbers as high as possible and the minority from a wealthy background will most likely have better scores than one from a disadvantaged background. With time, if affirmative action is effective, this situation will become more and more common. Either way, I think it's stupid that a wealthy minority kid gets a leg up over an economically disadvantaged white kid.

2) When should affirmative action stop? Taking medical education as an example, it seems that affirmative action is common throughout the process. It helps kids who would otherwise not get into college X get in, does the same for med. school, etc. But at what point should this stop?

The argument for affirmative action is that minorities don't have the same advantages as non-minorities, and had they had the same advantages they'd look just as good on paper, so give them a break. Ok, help kids get into college, but at that point, aren't we all more or less on the same playing field? This is a separate question, and one might argue we're not because a non-minority could be better prepared for the rigors of college than a minority, but a separate question is, does it really matter? Say a minority student is helped into college X and doesn't perform well there. Ok, no big deal. Then they're helped into med. school X, and don't perform well there. Also not a big deal - just keep helping them. But if after all of the help and leveling of playing fields the minority student just can't perform at a given level, what's the point? Do we really want doctors like this? I'm not saying that this is destined to happen for all or even some applicants, but it's still something to think about.

By the way, with the affirmative action program based on general disadvantages that I mentioned earlier, I would also think it to be inappropriate to continue it at a higher level. If a kid from a poor family just simply can not perform well in med school, he shouldn't be a doctor.

3) This is a weaker point, but I think it's still valid: the program is unfair to applicants who would not need the help and who are just as capable as their non-minority peers. I don't think I'm being racist in any way when I say this, but if I were about to have a high-risk operation and I could choose between a white surgeon and a hispanic one and didn't know anything else about them, I'd take the white one. And you would too. Why? Because of the AAMC data posted earlier in this thread about the differences between matriculants. The hispanic doctor could be 10x better than the white one, but there is literally no way to know just how much someone was helped along the way. Maybe the hispanic doctor was a 4.0/45 student - I just simply wouldn't know. I'm not saying that grades make good doctors or anything like that, but you know what I mean.

4) To respond to what LizzyM said; I don't think that the number of spots "given up" to minorities should be a factor in our decision as a society on the program in general. The small number of spots takes the sting out of it, so to speak, for those who are personally hurt when they think that others who are less qualified are getting in ahead of them in droves. But that's all it does - it doesn't really address the underlying issues.

5) Lastly, I think we can all agree that the ideal world would be entirely race-blind. Nobody would have an advantage over anybody else just because of their skin color, and that would be that. I think that we should be conscious of this goal when designing affirmative action programs and would argue that a race-blind (economically disadvantage)-based affirmative action program does much more to steer us in that direction than does the current program. At the very least, we wouldn't be having discussions like this one.

 

[trinitee501]

I believe that the reason that URMs might not do as well is because we have to listen to this garbage from Watson, the KKK, our future colleagues. Sometimes it is hard to distance yourself from the negativity that other people keeping spouting at you. And you are right AA is unfair but it is as unfair as those people who get to go to take holidays and not work their butt off while in school, it is as unfair as the fact that some people can't afford to apply to med school and it is definitely as unfair as the fact that some people spend thousands of dollars flying to foreign countries to get to say 'I did international volunteering' when you could spend significantly less helping someone just around the corner.

As I write my paper on treatment disparities for my final, I think I have managed to find the problem.

Happy Holidays😎

 

[trinitee501]

You talk to the KKK?

No but you see I did not intend for you to take the word talk literally b/c clearly I don't actually talk to anyone on here either. Do you see how that works?

 

[Drogba]

Exactly, how we can do that? I have no idea, and I dont think anyone else does either.

Wow I'm so glad you guys have reached a consensus. The problem is black parents telling their black kids to aim for the NBA! Where the hell do you guys get off making these generalizations!? You've both obviously spent close to no time examining the social conditions of the ghetto/urban poverty/race relations/discrimination etc etc, yet you've come to a conclusion that fits your worldview perfectly, so it must be valid. How can we change the ATTITUDES of the parents? How do you think these "attitudes" developed in the first place? Why don't you spend some time exploring the development of "ghetto culture" since you have such an anthropological bent. It's fairly easy to trace historically...

If you really care about this issue let me suggest one highly accessible book written by a Penn (now at yale) sociology professor: Code of the Streets. Otherwise you can continue to form your opinions based on limited experience and simplistic social analysis.

(if it is not apparent by my use of the second person plural this post is directed at BigRedPremed as well).

 

[NoUse4aName1286]

There are ways in which they are skewed towards whites. It's not overwhelming, but it's there.

If its not overwhelming, then it cannot account for a 6 point difference for average MCAT [which is an overwhelming difference].

 

[NoUse4aName1286]

yep, its cultural. my friend is ethiopian, so he would be a URM when applying to med school. He came here when he was 18, so he had the old countries hardcore work ethic on getting an education. He is here on his own, so he would be in a low income bracket, however his MCAT score is a 34, and GPA 3.8, wayyyyy above average.

Cases like that weaken arguments that standardized tests are biased towards white Americans.

 

[fisko82]

[...] Where the hell do you guys get off making these generalizations!? You've both obviously spent close to no time examining the social conditions of the ghetto/urban poverty/race relations/discrimination etc etc, yet you've come to a conclusion that fits your worldview perfectly, so it must be valid.

[...]

Otherwise you can continue to form your opinions based on limited experience and simplistic social analysis.

(if it is not apparent by my use of the second person plural this post is directed at BigRedPremed as well).

Where the hell do you get off making these generalizations about these two posters? 😀

 

[BrokenGlass]

Wow I'm so glad you guys have reached a consensus. The problem is black parents telling their black kids to aim for the NBA! Where the hell do you guys get off making these generalizations!? You've both obviously spent close to no time examining the social conditions of the ghetto/urban poverty/race relations/discrimination etc etc, yet you've come to a conclusion that fits your worldview perfectly, so it must be valid. How can we change the ATTITUDES of the parents? How do you think these "attitudes" developed in the first place? Why don't you spend some time exploring the development of "ghetto culture" since you have such an anthropological bent. It's fairly easy to trace historically...

If you really care about this issue let me suggest one highly accessible book written by a Penn (now at yale) sociology professor: Code of the Streets. Otherwise you can continue to form your opinions based on limited experience and simplistic social analysis.

(if it is not apparent by my use of the second person plural this post is directed at BigRedPremed as well).

At least people who live in a ghetto are able to afford a home. What about poor asian immigrants who can barely afford to rent? Keep in mind that these people don't speak English and are discriminated against for this reason when it comes to job search, etc. Also, many problems in a ghetto are self-inflicted. Everybody can write a book about something and there are way too many books out there to read, but like I said before, every book and/or research is biased because people set out to prove what they already believe and only look for data to support this. And then there are many ways data can be presented.

 

[NoUse4aName1286]

I believe that the reason that URMs might not do as well is because we have to listen to this garbage from Watson, the KKK, our future colleagues. Sometimes it is hard to distance yourself from the negativity that other people keeping spouting at you. And you are right AA is unfair but it is as unfair as those people who get to go to take holidays and not work their butt off while in school, it is as unfair as the fact that some people can't afford to apply to med school and it is definitely as unfair as the fact that some people spend thousands of dollars flying to foreign countries to get to say 'I did international volunteering' when you could spend significantly less helping someone just around the corner.

As I write my paper on treatment disparities for my final, I think I have managed to find the problem.

Happy Holidays😎

No it's not AS unfair. its much worse because it is government legalized reverse discrimination, NOT some rich kid who's dad DID work his butt off to get to his place. Oh, but of course, rich means you don't work at all. [And I'm poor as all hell, so don't try and throw that in my face].

 

[Drogba]

Cases like that weaken arguments that standardized tests are biased towards white Americans.

Oh c'mon your comment is so unscientific that I'm surprised to hear you say it. Some dude posted a story of a random ethiopian of unknown background who did well on the MCAT and all the sudden statistics, sample sizes and sound research methodology go out the window? In any case I've not myself seen data to suggest the MCAT is biased towards whites but I've seen plenty concerning other tests. I've posted some studies addressing this earlier in the thread.

 

[NoUse4aName1286]

Oh c'mon your comment is so unscientific that I'm surprised to hear you say it. Some dude posted a story of a random ethiopian of unknown background who did well on the MCAT and all the sudden statistics, sample sizes and sound research methodology go out the window? In any case I've not myself seen data to suggest the MCAT is biased towards whites but I've seen plenty concerning other tests. I've posted some studies addressing this earlier in the thread.

I consent.

 

[artaxerxes]

Every hear of self-fulfilling prophesies? Tell people of a specific group (blacks, women, etc) that their group scores lower on this test than others do and they will score lower. Many people walk into those tested psyched out to do poorly. 🙁

But the original perception is based on the reality that these groups score poorly. Psychology might have some effect, but once you get to the undergrad level, there really shouldn't be that kind of insecurity unless its actually being caused by affirmative action all along the way (e.g. less intelligent/able individuals being accepted to highly competitive institutions).

 

[trinitee501]

But the original perception is based on the reality that these groups score poorly. Psychology might have some effect, but once you get to the undergrad level, there really shouldn't be that kind of insecurity unless its actually being caused by affirmative action all along the way (e.g. less intelligent/able individuals being accepted to highly competitive institutions).

No actually the original perception existed a long time before this. This might sound strange but before there was the MCAT, they justified slavery with the same reasoning.

 

[Drogba]

At least people who live in a ghetto are able to afford a home. What about poor asian immigrants who can barely afford to rent? Keep in mind that these people don't speak English and are discriminated against for this reason when it comes to job search, etc. Also, many problems in a ghetto are self-inflicted. Everybody can write a book about something and there are way too many books out there to read, but like I said before, every book and/or research is biased because people set out to prove what they already believe and only look for data to support this. And then there are many ways data can be presented.

Hey dude, great, screw research! Lets just base our opinions on our highly biased pre-conceived notions of the ghetto or whatever else you might be interested in formulating a viewpoint on. You keep attacking research, maybe you have a better idea of how one should expose themselves to different sides to an issue?

Many people in the ghetto do not own their home or live in government subsidized housing. What about the vietnamese population where I grew up who lived in projects and consistently performed worse on tests and didn't demonstrate any of the "asian academic work ethic?" What about the fact that many of these kids were drawn to gangsterism and drug use? What conclusions should I draw from all these anecdotes. The one thing many immigrant families have that many african american families don't is a well integrated family structure. If you are interested in exploring why the african american family has dissolved to the degree it has there are many explanations out there. From what you've said though you'd probably discount it as biased research.

 

[BrokenGlass]

Hey dude, great, screw research! Lets just base our opinions on our highly biased pre-conceived notions of the ghetto or whatever else you might be interested in formulating a viewpoint on. You keep attacking research, maybe you have a better idea of how one should expose themselves to different sides to an issue?

Many people in the ghetto do not own their home or live in government subsidized housing. What about the vietnamese population where I grew up who lived in projects and consistently performed worse on tests and didn't demonstrate any of the "asian academic work ethic?" What about the fact that many of these kids were drawn to gangsterism and drug use? What conclusions should I draw from all these anecdotes. The one thing many immigrant families have that many african american families don't is a well integrated family structure. If you are interested in exploring why the african american family has dissolved to the degree it has there are many explanations out there. From what you've said though you'd probably discount it as biased research.

I am not attacking research, I am merely suggesting that you stop worshiping it blindly. I came to the US with no money and only a suitcate full of clothes and I didn't join a gang. It's too easy to blame your problems on others. And I have been discriminated against more times than I care to mention. So save your excuses for someone who hasn't experienced any hardships.

 

[unsung]

So then how do you explain the 25.8 MCAT average for african-american matriculants (vs. 31.2 for whites)?

By that token, either asians are experiencing the OPPOSITE of affirmative action relative to whites, or whites are experiencing affirmative action relative to asians...

Since asian matriculants have higher average scores. Yeah, sucks to be asian. 🙄

(But in all seriousness, affirmative action is quite needed in this country. And for the poster that responded "what does this have to do with me?" Good grief... I hope you're just really young and clueless.)

 

[badasshairday]

Cases like that weaken arguments that standardized tests are biased towards white Americans.

In response to that, my friend who is a URM that got the 34 pretty much only studied verbal. The guy was a science freak. He started off with a 5 on VR for practice tests. He spent half a year studying mostly verbal and very little science for the MCAT. While practicing, his highest score was a 9. On test day, he got a 10 on VR after all that work. While I know many white friends of mine who were naturally able to get away with minimal studying of VR. So maybe VR is a little bit biased towards whites. Just my 2cents... obviously all from personal experience rather than some huge statistical survey.

 

[Drogba]

This is the worst. It really bothers me when people have overcome adversity go on about how their situation is a paradigm of what all people can accomplish if they "just set their minds to it." If you look back in to your past you didn't have any positive role models or strong influences that helped you develop a value system that allowed you to succeed? If not man then you are truly an amazing and unique case, but frankly you can't possibly expect everyone to be able to do the same. Scratch that, go ahead and expect it, but since it won't happen we can just blame the people and not do anything to change the situation. I'm almost positive that you've had some significant positive influences in your life, either from parents or somewehre else, but if I'm wrong about this your cases is a huge outlier. So congrats, but expecting others to be able to do this is like expecting everyone to make 40+ on the mcat (nevermind the fact its a curved test).

 

[badasshairday]

By that token, either asians are experiencing the OPPOSITE of affirmative action relative to whites, or whites are experiencing affirmative action relative to asians...

Since asian matriculants have higher average scores. Yeah, sucks to be asian. 🙄

(But in all seriousness, affirmative action is quite needed in this country. And for the poster that responded "what does this have to do with me?" Good grief... I hope you're just really young and clueless.)

So shouldn't asians be complaining that "less deserving whites" in terms of stats are taking spots from better qualified asians?

By the way, it is sort of sad how "Asian" is such a big generalization. When speaking of Asians, east asians usually come to mind, and perhaps south-asians also in terms of med school admissions. But people forget that this umbrella term also includes cambodians, vietnamese, and other southeast asians who tend to be A LOT LESS repesented in higher education. They derserve URM status, yet are stuck with ORM status due to the umbrella term Asian.