Telling a program they are #1 by email Ok?

[predodoc]

Is telling a program they are #1 by email Ok? I had typed up a letter to the program I plan to rank #1 and was going to send it by mail. But then I read over my interview notes and the coordinator said they finish interviewing mid January and will rank everyone very soon after. I want them to know very soon, so is sending an email ok? Should I try calling instead? Both? Thanks.

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[docjolly]

hey there, i'm in same position, and am wondering the same thing. although i'm only half-way done with interviews, i've already more or less chosen my # 1 location.

if aPD or any other attending/senior resident can answer this question, that would be awesome.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Email is fine.

Writing a nice thank you note on the back of a $100 bill is OK too...

 

[Law2Doc]

Is telling a program they are #1 by email Ok? I had typed up a letter to the program I plan to rank #1 and was going to send it by mail. But then I read over my interview notes and the coordinator said they finish interviewing mid January and will rank everyone very soon after. I want them to know very soon, so is sending an email ok? Should I try calling instead? Both? Thanks.

No way I would call unless it was to ask a specific question. Interrupting someone from their busy schedule just to tell them they are your number one is more likely to rub somebody the wrong way, and make them feel like you are trying to put them on the spot as to whether the feeling is mutual. Email is fine, particularly if you have had communication via this route before.

 

[Ludicolo]

Email is fine.

Emailing now and following up by sending a more formal letter via snail mail is fine.

Agree w/ Law2Doc. Calling is not fine.

I prefer $10s and $20s.

 

[predodoc]

Thanks everyone for the responses. I ended up calling the PC at a time she would not be in just to leave a short message saying I really like them and rank them #1 and also I will send an email. I then sent an email to the PC and PD which went a little more into why I want choose them. Overall, I just wanted to seem more personal without being annoying. I called to make sure my email didnt go to junkmail or anything like that.

 

[elr1983]

Two similar questions:

1. This is really bad....I have fallen terribly behind on my thank you's and haven't written them to several programs I interviewed at in mid-late december, including one that I will likely rank 1st or 2nd. Can I send a thank you/you're number one letter or email at this point? Or should I write a thank you now, then send a you're number one email/letter later? Do they hate me because I didn't write them a thank you note? This is very embarassing and I feel really bad that I didn't do that faster.

2. If a program has more than one program director, should I write that they're my number one to all three? It seems to me that writing to one would be sufficient, but I didn't know if these get printed and put in a file so everyone would see it even if I only wrote to one program director.

Thanks for the insight!

 

[docjolly]

Writing a nice thank you note on the back of a $100 bill is OK too...

 

[docjolly]

hmm, to aPD or any assistant PD here on the forum, how much weight is honestly given to a candidate who clearly expresses to you/your program that you are #1?

i'm just curious. i'm about half-way done with interviews, but I believe that I've already done, in terms of selecting my top 1-3 program. i want to convey to my #1 that they are my choice, but i would feel foolish if it were not looked upon favorably.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Two similar questions:

1. This is really bad....I have fallen terribly behind on my thank you's and haven't written them to several programs I interviewed at in mid-late december, including one that I will likely rank 1st or 2nd. Can I send a thank you/you're number one letter or email at this point? Or should I write a thank you now, then send a you're number one email/letter later? Do they hate me because I didn't write them a thank you note? This is very embarassing and I feel really bad that I didn't do that faster.

2. If a program has more than one program director, should I write that they're my number one to all three? It seems to me that writing to one would be sufficient, but I didn't know if these get printed and put in a file so everyone would see it even if I only wrote to one program director.

Thanks for the insight!

1. No one will care. You are seriously overthinking this. Perhaps, if this is a very competitive field where they interviewed 10 people for 1 spot, then maybe someone noticed.

2. ACGME rules require that programs have a single PD. Check on FREIDA.

hmm, to aPD or any assistant PD here on the forum, how much weight is honestly given to a candidate who clearly expresses to you/your program that you are #1?

i'm just curious. i'm about half-way done with interviews, but I believe that I've already done, in terms of selecting my top 1-3 program. i want to convey to my #1 that they are my choice, but i would feel foolish if it were not looked upon favorably.

For programs with a long ranklist, it probably makes little difference. Plus, I've seen plenty of people who tell me they are my #1 match somewhere else, so I've become jaded. For competitive programs with short ranklists, who want to brag that they got their top 1-2 candidates, it may make a difference.

I prefer $10s and $20s.

You are a cheap date.

 

[elr1983]

1. No one will care. You are seriously overthinking this. Perhaps, if this is a very competitive field where they interviewed 10 people for 1 spot, then maybe someone noticed.

Yeah, it's peds, so definitely not a particularly competitive field.

2. ACGME rules require that programs have a single PD. Check on FREIDA.

OK, I guess some of the other people we met on interview day were "interview selection" coordinators. But one other guy referred to himself as the program director (not the person listed as program director on FREIDA). And one program I had had 3 people who referred to themselves as program directors. At programs w/ intern selection coordinators, should letters ranking them #1 go to them or to the program director? Or both?

 

[Samoa]

Yeah, I've fallen seriously behind on some of my thank you letters as well. Particularly for the programs where I interviewed at several places in rapid succession.

But better late than never, right?

My problem is I can't make myself commit to any single program as my #1.

I've grouped them fairly easily into 4 basic tiers: 1. programs I love, 2. programs I would love, if those other programs hadn't raised the bar so high, 3. programs I'd be very happy to match at, and 4. programs I'd rather train at than go unmatched.

But there are at least two programs within each group, and to stratify any further, I have to start using criteria that even I think is irrelevant.

How can I tell a program they're #1, when there's a dead-even chance it could be any of the other programs in that top group?

 

[CaMD]

How can I tell a program they're #1, when there's a dead-even chance it could be any of the other programs in that top group?

I am in a very similar position where I essentially have my programs broken into tiers, but beyond that I don't know what to do. I think I am just going to email my top 3 saying that I'm going to rank them highly and not use the "you're #1" card on anyone. Given that aProgDirector and others say that that's taken with a grain of salt anyway I'm not sure that's giving much up, strategy wise.

 

[docjolly]

How can I tell a program they're #1, when there's a dead-even chance it could be any of the other programs in that top group?

Well, honestly, you can't tell a program that. Some people are 100% sure of their #1 choices already and can, in all honesty and good conscience, declare that.

I guess for me, the problem becomes deciding how to rank the majority of the programs that fall into the "these are great programs, but..." category. Things certainly are not clearcut.


Ugh! This is all so frustrating. With that being said, I wish you all the best, Samoa

 

[peerie]

Ugh, this is beginning to become a sort of anxiety nightmare and I am starting to feel that the next three months are going to be H-E-double chopsticks.

I have one program that is my #1, I have told them that and all is good. Can't do much more than that. Then, there are a couple where ok, I would be happy to go because they are great programs and I want to go somewhere good. Then, there are a couple that I would happily go to rather than not match. And then, there are a few that I would be reluctant to choose but would not want to be out in the cold come March so I will put them down.

I have started to tell programs my interest and some of the farther down ones I have said I would 'rank highly' which I hope they understand means I want to go there. But I did not tell them they were number one or even top three. This games playing seems too weird for me, I don't like it. So I agonize over whether I should have sad this or that or - whatever. Ugh.

Ok to say I am ranking you highly and does that mean that they might rank you highly as well?

 

[Ludicolo]

Ugh, this is beginning to become a sort of anxiety nightmare and I am starting to feel that the next three months are going to be H-E-double chopsticks.

I have one program that is my #1, I have told them that and all is good. Can't do much more than that. Then, there are a couple where ok, I would be happy to go because they are great programs and I want to go somewhere good. Then, there are a couple that I would happily go to rather than not match. And then, there are a few that I would be reluctant to choose but would not want to be out in the cold come March so I will put them down.

I have started to tell programs my interest and some of the farther down ones I have said I would 'rank highly' which I hope they understand means I want to go there. But I did not tell them they were number one or even top three. This games playing seems too weird for me, I don't like it. So I agonize over whether I should have sad this or that or - whatever. Ugh.

Ok to say I am ranking you highly and does that mean that they might rank you highly as well?

You are overthinking this. You've done what you can do. Stop worrying about what other people think about you. In the grand scheme of things, thank you notes and telling a program you will rank them number one, or rank them highly, are not going to significantly change your position on their ROL. Rank the programs in the order in which YOU want to go. That’s it.

You are a cheap date.

I've been called worse.

 

[peerie]

Ok, thanks Dr. L, that's just what I need to hear.

It was all starting to make me freak because some programs have been after me to tell them if I am interested, and others seem very polite but remote - which is hard to interpret. Alot of programs made it clear that if I was interested I needed to let them know, and keep insisting I keep in contact with them. Not sure what that means really.

My list hasn't really changed - just the level of anxiety!

 

[doxtyp]

Ok, so contacting programs and letting them know that we will be ranking them high seems like a good idea. But when is the best time to do it? Feb 1? Feb 15? When do programs usually finalize their ROLs?

 

[BlondeDocteur]

Yeah, I've fallen seriously behind on some of my thank you letters as well. Particularly for the programs where I interviewed at several places in rapid succession.

But better late than never, right?

My problem is I can't make myself commit to any single program as my #1.

I've grouped them fairly easily into 4 basic tiers: 1. programs I love, 2. programs I would love, if those other programs hadn't raised the bar so high, 3. programs I'd be very happy to match at, and 4. programs I'd rather train at than go unmatched.

But there are at least two programs within each group, and to stratify any further, I have to start using criteria that even I think is irrelevant.

How can I tell a program they're #1, when there's a dead-even chance it could be any of the other programs in that top group?

Samoa-- given that the field you're in is very competitive, and that your Tier 1 programs are all in a dead heat, why not just select one at random and make it your #1? I think, though I can't be certain, that your chances of matching someplace are higher if you seem to be very earnest about going there. That way you'll have more of a chance of ending up in your First Tier than if you didn't tell anyone, or waited until a few days before the lists were due in. I don't even think it would be dishonest, if you're truly split and would be happy at any.

 

[Samoa]

Good point.

 

[dragonfly99]

Samoa,
I agree with blonddocteur on this...when you are trying to match into something very competitive, sometimes the little things matter.

Peerie, if programs tell you they "want you to keep in contact" and/or would like to know that you are interested, vs. not, IMHO that is code for "If you want to be ranked to match, you'd better tell us you are ranking us #1 or very high". That's just my opinion, but it's based on what I've seen and experienced. Of course, I don't think it should make you go lie to every program where you interviewed and say you are #1, but I think you can assume if those type programs that said those things to you hear nothing much from you after you interview, they might not rank you very high because they'll assume you aren't interested. Also, IMHO this is a psychological technique used by some of the more mid-tier programs to try and get better applicants than they would otherwise. In my experience the really top places don't use these types of pressure tactics or try to court specific people as much, because they know they are going to fill with good applicants without playing such games.

I agree w/the attendings (who posted above) for the most part, though. In a lot of the lesser competitive fields like peds and IM, your telling a program how you are going to rank them is unlikely to change their ranking of you very much, if at all. They have such long rank lists anyway, and a lot of applicants get one of their top 2 or 3 places, so stuff like who wrote a thank you note or who said they were ranking a program #1 doesn't end up counting for much. Plus, like APD said, lots of the PD's might not believe you anyhow.

 

[MedObsession]

I was recently advised that if I want my number one program I should skip the email or letter and call them personally. Is that too much to call the PD to tell them that I am ranking them #1?

Also, the chair of my dept offered to call my #1 choice on my behalf (I haven't told him what program that is yet). Should I call or email in addition to his call, or just let him call? Will I be ruining my chances of my home institution ranking me highly if my chair knows that I am going to put another program #1?

 

[ranmyaku]

I was recently advised that if I want my number one program I should skip the email or letter and call them personally. Is that too much to call the PD to tell them that I am ranking them #1?

Also, the chair of my dept offered to call my #1 choice on my behalf (I haven't told him what program that is yet). Should I call or email in addition to his call, or just let him call? Will I be ruining my chances of my home institution ranking me highly if my chair knows that I am going to put another program #1?

Who gave you that advice? Calling up the PD yourself to tell them you are ranking the #1 seems like a bad idea...and a very awkward phone call.

If it was me, I would let the department chair do it, especially if they know them already.

 

[Miami_med]

Call from chair = good
Call from you = bad

 

[MedObsession]

Who gave you that advice? Calling up the PD yourself to tell them you are ranking the #1 seems like a bad idea...and a very awkward phone call.

If it was me, I would let the department chair do it, especially if they know them already.

The advice came from a program director in a different field than I'm applying. She is one of my 4th year advisors. This program is accross the nation from where I am currently, and she thought that it would be better to communicate via phone that I am willing to move and why that program is my #1. She felt that it would give me a chance to get a better sense of the PD's feelings toward me as an applicant than I would get via email. In addition, I expressed that I know my chair, but clearly he does not know me as well as I know myself.

I thought it seemed a little wierd, but thought I would ask on here to get additional opinions!

 

[peerie]

Thanks DFly99, that was really awesome advice about programs who apply subtle - and not so subtle - pressure on applicants.

I think, that what has been weighing on me about all this is that you are right, it is a psychological technique and it does make me uncomfortable. My #1 is actually a very top program and they have been silent and respectful. I felt very comfortable with them the times I have been there, no game playing! I also thought the other applicants were pretty awesome and you are right, good programs don't need to work it to fill well. My #2 and #3 where also like this.

So it was the pressure some of the other programs applied - plus the realization that they were really more middle programs, both of these things were bothering me on an unconscious level. There really is a certain amount of strategy going on here and I would imagine most applicants might feel at a disadvantage when up against a seasoned PD with many years' experience. At least, I sure do.

 

[LadyGrey]

I think, that what has been weighing on me about all this is that you are right, it is a psychological technique and it does make me uncomfortable.
...
So it was the pressure some of the other programs applied - plus the realization that they were really more middle programs, both of these things were bothering me on an unconscious level. There really is a certain amount of strategy going on here and I would imagine most applicants might feel at a disadvantage when up against a seasoned PD with many years' experience. At least, I sure do.

I'm with you on this. I hate a hard sell, and in other areas of life the technique is usually enough to turn me off and send me on to a different seller, whether I'm looking at apartments or jewelry or whatever.

I think you're right that as with other hard sells, there is usually a reason they're working so hard -- like, it's a crappy apartment that you wouldn't want to live in if you gave it more thought. I've only hit one program that made a big deal out of the "contact us if you really want us" thing. My top programs have had a more hand-off, see what we've got and see if you like it, attitude.

Unlike other parts of life, though, we can't really afford to have the attitude of "you're pressuring me, I hate that, I'll try my luck elsewhere" if the program is basically acceptable. I'd rather match somewhere that gave me a hard sell than not match.

 

[gonogo]

I have a similar question regarding telling a program they're my no. 1. I'm applying to a competitive specialty. I'd appreciate your help.

Here's the situation: I interviewed at program X some weeks ago. After the interview, my med school advisor, who used to work in the same department I'm applying to (and personally knows the PD), gave a call to the PD telling her this was my no. 1 program. When I Talked to my advisor after the phone call, he said I had a really good chance of getting in.

However, on my thank you note to the PD I didn't specifically mention I was ranking them no. 1, just because I thought I had to wait until all my interviews finished. On the other hand, I did get good feedback from the interview after my thank you notes, and actually exchanged several emails with the PD.

Now that I'm done with my interviews, should I write them again telling them they're my no. 1, or would this be too much? I'm definitely sure this is my no. 1 program, but at this point I feel that another email from me may be an overkill.

Any advice?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

You are totally overthinking this. Send another email if you want.

 

[gonogo]

You are totally overthinking this. Send another email if you want.

Thanks for your reply. I know I may be overthinking this, but I just want to make sure I don't blow my chances!!!

 

[dragonfly99]

gonogo,
Yes you are overthinking this. They very likely know you are interested @this point. They probably discussed this with the faculty member @your institution who knows the PD @the program you like. However, I don't think there is much down side to telling them (once and politely) that they are your #1. Email or regular mail would be OK at this point...keep it short and to the point. They may have already made their rank list by now, though.

 

[DarthNeurology]

Email is fine.

Writing a nice thank you note on the back of a $100 bill is OK too...

It is better to put the $100 dollar bill in your wallet/purse and ask the PD to hold your wallet/purse while you tour the hospital and tell her/him, "Maybe there is a hundred dollars in there or maybe there isn't . . . you tell me when I come back." By unwritten laws of social conduct during the match if you get back an empty wallet/purse then you will match there if you want to, if you don't then you probably won't.

Seriously, though when I interviewed a lot of programs take applicants to very expensive restaurants, on a department's budget too, I would hate to think that somebody who donated money to a children's hospital had some of that money pay for a 30+ dollar meal at a fancy restaurant for an applicant who never even ranked the place . . . Seems some programs bribe applicants in a way . . .

 

[BobA]

I have another situation:

I canceled a second-look at my #1/#2 school. I still haven't totally decided where they are yet. I canceled the second look because I knew enough about the program, and I was out of money. When I called the PC to cancel the second look I also told her I was very interested in the program, and I asked her how I could express this interest in the PD. The PC then recommended a phone call to the PD (note: the PC is new), and we set up a phone appointment.

This seems to go against the advice of calling PD's - but it was the PC's idea!

My plan is to have a short and sweet phone conversation with the PD explaining that I canceled the second look for financial reasons and that I knew enough about his program and loved it. I was going to say that it's one of my top 2 choices and that I'll certainly stay in touch with him. Sound OK?

 

[mcl]

I have another situation:

I canceled a second-look at my #1/#2 school. I still haven't totally decided where they are yet. I canceled the second look because I knew enough about the program, and I was out of money. When I called the PC to cancel the second look I also told her I was very interested in the program, and I asked her how I could express this interest in the PD. The PC then recommended a phone call to the PD (note: the PC is new), and we set up a phone appointment.

This seems to go against the advice of calling PD's - but it was the PC's idea!

My plan is to have a short and sweet phone conversation with the PD explaining that I canceled the second look for financial reasons and that I knew enough about his program and loved it. I was going to say that it's one of my top 2 choices and that I'll certainly stay in touch with him. Sound OK?

Trust that the PC knows how that particular PD likes to be approached and follow those instructions. There are absolutely no hard and fast rules about means of contact, just generalities.

I think your first sentence is perfect and you should leave it at that--no need to mention that the program might end up being your #2 choice. Instead, ask if the PD needs any additional information about you in order to enhance your application without an actual visit. Definitely let the PD know if you've been in contact with any of the residents at that program. Second looks go both ways--it's a chance for you to get more information about the program, but it's also a chance for the program to see how you interact with residents and staff.