Telling a program you are ranking them highly?

[pazu]

I was wondering if it's OK to say in a thank you note that you are ranking the program highly. Is this considered appropriate given the new NRMP guidelines? I planned on sending letters to my favorite programs later in January, but at this point, I already have some idea of how I will be ranking the programs. Thanks!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Eta Carinae]

I've been told that it's ok to say you're ranking them highly as long as you don't use specifics such as, "top choice" or "#1".

Ambiguity is key.

 

[Eta Carinae]

For the sake of preserving the integrity of the match process, please, to all applicants this cycle, PLEASE be sincere in your letters ie don't just send out promiscuous letters to EVERY program claiming that each is being highly ranked. PLEASE everyone, retain some modicum of decency in this process.

PS somehow, I feel this sincere appeal is lost on our ortho/plastics/ENT/Derm buddies applying this year .

 

[Selectinologist]

I was wondering if it's OK to say in a thank you note that you are ranking the program highly. Is this considered appropriate given the new NRMP guidelines? I planned on sending letters to my favorite programs later in January, but at this point, I already have some idea of how I will be ranking the programs. Thanks!

I don't think it helps to tell a program that you're ranking them highly. The word "highly" is so vague that it's almost pointless. It also implies that they aren't first, which could actually hurt you. If highly means that they're in your top half, then you could easily match somewhere else anyway.

 

[Eta Carinae]

I don't think it helps to tell a program that you're ranking them highly. The word "highly" is so vague that it's almost pointless. It also implies that they aren't first, which could actually hurt you. If highly means that they're in your top half, then you could easily match somewhere else anyway.

I beg to differ there. You might be venturing close to violating match rules by revealing where you are ranking a program and being too specific.
From advice from previous applicants, some programs may be put off by specifics, interpreting them to mean
a) You're being duplicitous and are feeding the same line to every program
b) You're seeking to gain an unfair 'leg up' from your peers
c) You're pretty desperate

Instead, if your heart is truly set on a program as your number 1, identify a member of faculty who may have trained there or has some connection to the program and ask for him/her to place a phone call on your behalf.

 

[Eta Carinae]

I don't think it helps to tell a program that you're ranking them highly. The word "highly" is so vague that it's almost pointless. It also implies that they aren't first, which could actually hurt you. If highly means that they're in your top half, then you could easily match somewhere else anyway.

I like the username, selectin, but are you studying E- or P-Selectins?

 

[pazu]

Hmm, I appreciate the responses, and you bring up a good point: no matter how sincere an applicant is, their words may be misconstrued by the program as being 1. duplicitous and insincere or 2. desperate. I wonder if any program directors would care to comment on this? The last thing I want to be thought of is either of the two.

 

[rtc]

I've been told that it's ok to say you're ranking them highly as long as you don't use specifics such as, "top choice" or "#1".

Ambiguity is key.

Really? Where is this info on the NRMP site? Because this is what I read on the site (directly cut and pasted):

"Although the Match Participation Agreement does not prohibit either an applicant or a program from volunteering how one plans to rank the other, it is a violation of the Match Participation Agreement to request such information."

And in addition another violation is:
"An applicant "guarantees" a program director that he/she will rank the program first on their rank order list, but only if the program director will rank the applicant within their program's quota."

So you can't request this info from programs and you can't try to make a deal, but you can volunteer any info you want from your side. Am I missing something here?

 

[Eta Carinae]

Am I missing something here?

Yes.
You should read both posts. I said bordering on violating...
In any case, please feel free to use whatever means serve you best.
Hope you don't wind up shooting yourself in the foot

and all the best, assuming you're applying this cycle.

 

[rtc]

Yes.
You should read both posts. I said bordering on violating...
In any case, please feel free to use whatever means serve you best. and all the best, assuming you're applying this cycle.

I'm not sure that I see how this is bordering on violating, as the site has explicitly stated that you are allowed to divulge information on where you will be ranking the program, whether it be "highly" or "#1" or not at all. I do agree that we should have integrity when sharing such information but any statement of the sort is not a violation of any sorts. Anyhow, good luck to you as well.

 

[howelljolly]

youre allowed to "border on" violating whatever you want. You just can't violate them.

 

[Eta Carinae]

REPEATING...

I've been told that it's ok to say you're ranking them highly as long as you don't use specifics such as, "top choice" or "#1".

Ambiguity is key.

For the sake of preserving the integrity of the match process, please, to all applicants this cycle, PLEASE be sincere in your letters ie don't just send out promiscuous letters to EVERY program claiming that each is being highly ranked. PLEASE everyone, retain some modicum of decency in this process.

PS somehow, I feel this sincere appeal is lost on our ortho/plastics/ENT/Derm buddies applying this year .

I beg to differ there. You might be venturing close to violating match rules by revealing where you are ranking a program and being too specific.
From advice from previous applicants, some programs may be put off by specifics, interpreting them to mean
a) You're being duplicitous and are feeding the same line to every program
b) You're seeking to gain an unfair 'leg up' from your peers
c) You're pretty desperate

Instead, if your heart is truly set on a program as your number 1, identify a member of faculty who may have trained there or has some connection to the program and ask for him/her to place a phone call on your behalf.

PLEASE NOTE HIGHLIGHTED MATERIAL AND READ WITH BOTH EYES OPEN!!!!

I DID NOT SAY YOU WOULD BE CITED FOR IT. WHILE NOT A VIOLATION, MY POSTS SUGGEST IT COULD BE A DUBIOUS MOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THEN AGAIN, I'LL WAIT FOR A FEW PDs' OPINIONS!

that being said, all the best as you apply.

 

[Eta Carinae]

Although the Match Participation Agreement does not prohibit either an applicant or a program from volunteering

My posts were in regard to nuance and not absolute dos and don'ts per written rules.

 

[Eta Carinae]

Really? Where is this info on the NRMP site? Because this is what I read on the site (directly cut and pasted):

"Although the Match Participation Agreement does not prohibit either an applicant or a program from volunteering how one plans to rank the other, it is a violation of the Match Participation Agreement to request such information."

And in addition another violation is:
"An applicant "guarantees" a program director that he/she will rank the program first on their rank order list, but only if the program director will rank the applicant within their program's quota."

So you can't request this info from programs and you can't try to make a deal, but you can volunteer any info you want from your side. Am I missing something here?

while your input is appreciated, anyone can download that information from the site.

I was stating others' and my opinions (based on advice from previous applicants)on doing so.

 

[Cerberus]

I can't imagine why this would be a problem. 1) It's not a match violation. 2) So long as it's honest, why would telling a program that you will rank them highly be a problem? I know, despite still having 4 interviews to attend, where my top 2 choices will be. I know these programs will be my top 2 for two reasons: they are in the geographic region I want to be in and I rotated at one of them and really liked it. It would take an act of god to change my mind on this - so why shouldn't I tell the programs that they are my top choices?

 

[Eta Carinae]

 

[Eta Carinae]

this forum has a lot of very...um...very....insightful posters

 

[rtc]

this forum has a lot of very...um...very....insightful posters

While we are all entitled to our opinions on the usefulness, etc. of making such statements to programs, the OP had originally brought up a question of making a declaration of ranking in a thank you note in light of NRMP guidelines. This is why we have been addressing NRMP violations v. non-violations. I believe that at one point you addressed this as well, stating, "You might be venturing close to violating match rules by revealing where you are ranking a program and being too specific." So I hope you can understand why we are talking about match rules. I hope you don't take any of this the wrong way and best wishes.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Wow, tempers are running high.

First of all, it is not a match violation for anyone to tell me exactly (or vaguely) where my program will be ranked. You are free to tell me I am your #1, that you won't be ranking me at all, or anything in between.

Equally, I can tell you whether you are #1, #1001, not on the list, etc.

What you can't do is ask the other person, nor make any deal such as "I'll rank you high if you rank me high". So, asking "Where am I ranked?" (by either party) is really not allowed.

Now, back to the original question. How helpful is "I am ranking you highly"? My sense is -- not helpful at all. Because, what does "Highly" mean? Probably not #1, or you would have told me that. Maybe top 3? or top 5? Or top half of your list?

This is exactly the same as an email from a PD that you are "ranked highly". Getting such an email is clearly better than one that says "we're not interested", but certainly does not guarantee anything.

The most controversial statement by PD's is "ranked to match". This statement also has no uniform meaning. To some, it means that if a program has X slots, you are ranked in the top X slots on their list -- this would mathematically guarantee a match if you rank them high enough on your list. To others, it means that you are ranked high enough on their list that, historically, you'll get a spot. But, we've all heard stories where someone fails to match and then is told "Oh, well, we filled much higher than usual this year".

Telling me that you've ranked me #1 makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. Still, people have told me this and then matched elsewhere (they were high enough on my list to match with us). In my book, no hard feelings. The match is all about being selfish -- rank programs you want to go to highly. If that's somewhere else, that's fine with me.

 

[ResidentMD]

Wow, tempers are running high.

First of all, it is not a match violation for anyone to tell me exactly (or vaguely) where my program will be ranked. You are free to tell me I am your #1, that you won't be ranking me at all, or anything in between.

Equally, I can tell you whether you are #1, #1001, not on the list, etc.

What you can't do is ask the other person, nor make any deal such as "I'll rank you high if you rank me high". So, asking "Where am I ranked?" (by either party) is really not allowed.

Now, back to the original question. How helpful is "I am ranking you highly"? My sense is -- not helpful at all. Because, what does "Highly" mean? Probably not #1, or you would have told me that. Maybe top 3? or top 5? Or top half of your list?

This is exactly the same as an email from a PD that you are "ranked highly". Getting such an email is clearly better than one that says "we're not interested", but certainly does not guarantee anything.

The most controversial statement by PD's is "ranked to match". This statement also has no uniform meaning. To some, it means that if a program has X slots, you are ranked in the top X slots on their list -- this would mathematically guarantee a match if you rank them high enough on your list. To others, it means that you are ranked high enough on their list that, historically, you'll get a spot. But, we've all heard stories where someone fails to match and then is told "Oh, well, we filled much higher than usual this year".

Telling me that you've ranked me #1 makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. Still, people have told me this and then matched elsewhere (they were high enough on my list to match with us). In my book, no hard feelings. The match is all about being selfish -- rank programs you want to go to highly. If that's somewhere else, that's fine with me.

I am glad to see how open PDs are to this. I have come across this myself on a few interviews, where the PD has told me, if you dont rank us high, no hard feelings.

I also would like to think that PDs can differentiate the sincerity of a candidate from the routine crapshoot. I am sure PDs are pro at this, seeing on an average 300 candidates every year.

I would think telling a program that they are your #1 (or in your top 3) can only help you (or have no effect), as long as you are sincere in it. If you were sincere in it, and it hurt you, maybe you do not want to end up in such a backstabbing and doubting program. However, remember that the IM world is a small world, and the more you fool around, the more are your chances of getting caught. So be sincere.

Disclaimer: Current applicant.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

this forum has a lot of very...um...very....insightful posters

pot meet kettle.

Your post stated incorrectly that:

" You might be venturing close to violating match rules by revealing where you are ranking a program and being too specific."

Telling programs that you are ranking them #1 or "highly" is in no way a violation of the match rules. This is what RTC was trying to clarify.

And as for your opinion, I've been told the exact opposite - telling programs vague things like "I'm ranking you highly" is next to meaningless. From what I've been told, programs are only going to get excited about "I'm ranking you #1" and then even then they take it with a grain of salt for the exact reasons aPD stated.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I beg to differ there. You might be venturing close to violating match rules by revealing where you are ranking a program and being too specific.
From advice from previous applicants, some programs may be put off by specifics, interpreting them to mean
a) You're being duplicitous and are feeding the same line to every program
b) You're seeking to gain an unfair 'leg up' from your peers
c) You're pretty desperate

Instead, if your heart is truly set on a program as your number 1, identify a member of faculty who may have trained there or has some connection to the program and ask for him/her to place a phone call on your behalf.

IMO, ideas like the one bolded above generally come from people who have never looked for a real job in their life. Playing too cool for school is not the way to do it generally, and expressing strong interest is not the same thing as desperation. Now begging is desperate -- stating, hey, I liked you a lot for xyz reasons and I'm ranking you #1 is not desperate.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

Wow, tempers are running high.

Eta has that ability, you should check out some of the anesthesia threads...

 

[drknockboot]

REPEATING...

PLEASE NOTE HIGHLIGHTED MATERIAL AND READ WITH BOTH EYES OPEN!!!!

I DID NOT SAY YOU WOULD BE CITED FOR IT. WHILE NOT A VIOLATION, MY POSTS SUGGEST IT COULD BE A DUBIOUS MOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THEN AGAIN, I'LL WAIT FOR A FEW PDs' OPINIONS!

that being said, all the best as you apply.

Can you just tell ME where you are ranking #1? You seem like the type that would make a great co-intern and team member...

 

[Eta Carinae]

Can you just tell ME where you are ranking #1? You seem like the type that would make a great co-intern and team member...

MGH

 

[dragonfly99]

I agree with drbagel and RTC.

 

[Spiker]

I am just curious why would a program even care about how the applicant rank them when they make their decision?

From my understanding

The program will get the their highest ranked medical student that interest in it the most (or interested in them the most after being bumped out by other medical student in other program).

And the Medical Student will get their highest preference as long as they dont get bumped out. And if they get bumped out they will looked at next preference.

So if there is a program A who ranked the follow

1.a
2.c
3.d
4.f

If medical student a rank program A as number 1 then he will go to program A and if student a does not rank program A then we have to see if medical student c is interested. So it is same as

1.c
2.d
3.f

So essentially there is no harm in ranking some one high even if they dont like you that much/dont rank you. Like I am thick skinned person and ask out the hottest girl in my school and the worst thing that can happen is that she say no, in which case I just need to ask the second hottest, and so on and so forth. Am I correct?

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I am just curious why would a program even care about how the applicant rank them when they make their decision?

Ironically, residency programs are almost as obsessed with prestige as pre-meds. Programs like to brag that they only had to go XXX number of people down on their match list to fill their residency class. So they will consider whether or not you want to be there. Obviously it's not going to take anyone from the bottom of the list to the top - but if you and a couple of other people are "close" on the program's rankings, that might bump you up over those other people.

 

[Spiker]

Programs like to brag that they only had to go XXX number of people down on their match list to fill their residency class.

Lol I guess that is true but WTF???? That is like such a small thing (is it even published? cant they just lie about it). How many people did you date before you found your wife? who give a **** lol

I guess it makes a program feel better if they get 2 people who are on top of their short list than 2 that are bottom of their long list even if those 2 people are the exact same people.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

The other reason (albeit somewhat weak) is this:

Let's say I have two candidates that are basically equal, and I'm going to rank them #1 and #2 (for one possible slot). I like both of them. One of them is ranking me #10, the other is ranking me #1. I would tend to favor the person (if I knew) who ranked me #1, since the person who ranked me #10 MIGHT be more unhappy / bitter / less excited about coming. In general, I'd favor the person who was really excited about my program.