Templates by Chief Complaint

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EMapplicant99

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Hey Team,

I will doing my first EM rotation this summer, and I'm looking for tools to help me look like less of a fool in the ED. I've been using the EM Basic Podcasts to make notes for myself as to what information I need to collect in an HPI and the basics of the workups. It got me thinking-- are there any templates or phone apps that have a list of pertinent information to collect sorted by CC or working diagnosis?
 
Template? Probably not. But if you want a quick differential review with the associated/relevant ROS, check the EMRA Basics of EM pocket book or app. Get Pocket EM (orange) if you need a quick reference with more detail.
 
Thanks for the quick reply. Yea, the relevant ROS and important history/physical findings is what I'm after, not so much templates. I'll take a look into the EMRA app.
 
Hey Team,

I will doing my first EM rotation this summer, and I'm looking for tools to help me look like less of a fool in the ED. I've been using the EM Basic Podcasts to make notes for myself as to what information I need to collect in an HPI and the basics of the workups. It got me thinking-- are there any templates or phone apps that have a list of pertinent information to collect sorted by CC or working diagnosis?

Oldcarts.

Really cant go wrong with it.
 
Few tips since I figure you're interested in EM otherwise you wouldn't be posting here:

It's not so much what you know but how you think, how you work, and how you follow up on things that will impress an attending. You can know everything about ACS but if you don't follow up on the EKG and trop and have some sort of plan or at least idea of a plan for the patient I could care less. The best students are the ones who are motivated, friendly, active, eager to help, don't look bored (even if they are) and follow up on patients (both labs and how they are doing). When I have a student come up to me and say the ct for room 5 is back and I haven't skimmed through it already, you better believe I am impressed with that level of work ethic. If you get pimped and don't know, give an educated guess and if wrong go look it up. DO NOT piss off the nurses or interrupt them because I will be the one hearing about it. You can usually collect a full h and p from just standing there and listening to the triage. If you are asked a question and didn't ask say you didn't ask, NEVER LIE. Look up every procedure on YouTube you've never done so you can say you've seen plenty and then get your hands wet. Have fun. Sorry for the rambling I'm on my phone at the gym. Hope that helps some.
 
Few tips since I figure you're interested in EM otherwise you wouldn't be posting here:

It's not so much what you know but how you think, how you work, and how you follow up on things that will impress an attending. You can know everything about ACS but if you don't follow up on the EKG and trop and have some sort of plan or at least idea of a plan for the patient I could care less. The best students are the ones who are motivated, friendly, active, eager to help, don't look bored (even if they are) and follow up on patients (both labs and how they are doing). When I have a student come up to me and say the ct for room 5 is back and I haven't skimmed through it already, you better believe I am impressed with that level of work ethic. If you get pimped and don't know, give an educated guess and if wrong go look it up. DO NOT piss off the nurses or interrupt them because I will be the one hearing about it. You can usually collect a full h and p from just standing there and listening to the triage. If you are asked a question and didn't ask say you didn't ask, NEVER LIE. Look up every procedure on YouTube you've never done so you can say you've seen plenty and then get your hands wet. Have fun. Sorry for the rambling I'm on my phone at the gym. Hope that helps some.

Thanks for the advice! The insight is really helpful, and I appreciate being reminded of the "big picture."
 
No problem. I also recommend only taking 5 minutes or less to get an h&p. You can always go back and ask more.
 
No problem. I also recommend only taking 5 minutes or less to get an h&p. You can always go back and ask more.
Nothing is more painful when your resident/attending asks if you asked something, then having to say 'Sorry, I forgot' on multiple patients in a row. Going back and asking more isn't always a great option.

Also, do you recommend that we go to the attendings with lab results? It seems like residents are really the ones who ever do anything with this information, so I usually keep them up to date on important lab results/imaging to expedite disco. Should I be telling the attending too?
 
Nothing is more painful when your resident/attending asks if you asked something, then having to say 'Sorry, I forgot' on multiple patients in a row. Going back and asking more isn't always a great option.

Also, do you recommend that we go to the attendings with lab results? It seems like residents are really the ones who ever do anything with this information, so I usually keep them up to date on important lab results/imaging to expedite disco. Should I be telling the attending too?
Just because it's painful doesn't mean it's an inappropriate occurrence. You learn from mistakes, so saying "sorry, I forgot" is actually a good thing. 1) *you* learn it's an important question & 2) your attending learns that you're trustworthy.

I can teach to deficits, I can't remold character.

Though I would argue 5min is quick for a med student h&p on anything more complex than a work note. 10-15min at least buys me time to see/eval 2-3 other patients. Parallel processes FTW. d=)

-d

Semper Brunneis Pallium
 
Nothing is more painful when your resident/attending asks if you asked something, then having to say 'Sorry, I forgot' on multiple patients in a row. Going back and asking more isn't always a great option.

Also, do you recommend that we go to the attendings with lab results? It seems like residents are really the ones who ever do anything with this information, so I usually keep them up to date on important lab results/imaging to expedite disco. Should I be telling the attending too?

Everything is attending or resident dependent so if the attending or resident says: "Do it like this!" Never argue with them, just do it that way because there is more than one way to practice and it is better to learn multiple ways than just one way. Who to go to is totally attending depedent. Sometimes I have students report directly to me, sometimes I have them go to the residents and just listen in while charting on something else. Generally speaking though, I think most attendings and residents would want more pertinent information faster to get the ball rolling on the labs/imaging than every single detail explained. Also, while for you going back and asking more isn't always a great option, for the resident who has 5-6 other patients and the attending who has 10-15, it's a blessing. EM is all about pertinent information. Obviously this is a skill that is developed over years. Some more tricks:

1) Look at vitals before you go into a room. This will allow you to triage the patient mentally and ask focused pertinent questions. If the patient is being triaged with you in the room assist in obtaining them. This will expedite the process and also establish excellent rapport with nurses who are usually trying to do multiple things at once (careful though, some nurses bite).

2) For the patients with complicated PMHs, pull up a prior H&P or discharge summary. This is basically a cheat sheet. Obviously in a patient who twisted their ankle, this is overkill. In the demented septic patient who can't answer any of your questions, this is a huge time saver. Do this if a patient is waiting for a room or right before you go in to see them.

3) Don't let patients ramble. You don't have to be rude but you may have to redirect. This may involve asking the same question multiple times.

4) Tell your attending/resident up front: "Hey I got the basics on the patient in 9 so we can put in orders, I will go back and ask any additional questions if you think I missed anything." Most normal EM docs will appreciate this approach.

5) Think of the things that could kill someone with this chief complaint, then work backwards.

6) Focus your RoS and exam to the pertinent positives and negatives.

I would also echo @Daiphon in saying that sometimes missing something is a good thing. You learn from it because you're a hard worker and you don't like being wrong and it shows that you are willing to admit that and show a desire to improve. Just never lie. Ever. We know that stories change from patients from one minute to the next. It happened to us as students. Don't worry about that. Just don't lie. Ever.
 
Everything is attending or resident dependent so if the attending or resident says: "Do it like this!" Never argue with them, just do it that way because there is more than one way to practice and it is better to learn multiple ways than just one way. Who to go to is totally attending depedent. Sometimes I have students report directly to me, sometimes I have them go to the residents and just listen in while charting on something else. Generally speaking though, I think most attendings and residents would want more pertinent information faster to get the ball rolling on the labs/imaging than every single detail explained. Also, while for you going back and asking more isn't always a great option, for the resident who has 5-6 other patients and the attending who has 10-15, it's a blessing. EM is all about pertinent information. Obviously this is a skill that is developed over years. Some more tricks:

1) Look at vitals before you go into a room. This will allow you to triage the patient mentally and ask focused pertinent questions. If the patient is being triaged with you in the room assist in obtaining them. This will expedite the process and also establish excellent rapport with nurses who are usually trying to do multiple things at once (careful though, some nurses bite).

2) For the patients with complicated PMHs, pull up a prior H&P or discharge summary. This is basically a cheat sheet. Obviously in a patient who twisted their ankle, this is overkill. In the demented septic patient who can't answer any of your questions, this is a huge time saver. Do this if a patient is waiting for a room or right before you go in to see them.

3) Don't let patients ramble. You don't have to be rude but you may have to redirect. This may involve asking the same question multiple times.

4) Tell your attending/resident up front: "Hey I got the basics on the patient in 9 so we can put in orders, I will go back and ask any additional questions if you think I missed anything." Most normal EM docs will appreciate this approach.

5) Think of the things that could kill someone with this chief complaint, then work backwards.

6) Focus your RoS and exam to the pertinent positives and negatives.

I would also echo @Daiphon in saying that sometimes missing something is a good thing. You learn from it because you're a hard worker and you don't like being wrong and it shows that you are willing to admit that and show a desire to improve. Just never lie. Ever. We know that stories change from patients from one minute to the next. It happened to us as students. Don't worry about that. Just don't lie. Ever.

Yeah, Tenk effed up a thousand times when he was rotating with me as his senior resident. He made it through; so will you.

*elbow in ribs*.
 
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