APP getting bought out by Schumacher

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bravotwozero

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Hot off the press, from APP’s ‘big announcement’ conference call today. I didn’t attend but heard from colleagues.

I’m shocked. Don’t know how SCP managed to pull this off. Their finances aren’t horrible, but not great either, and they’re a much smaller company without much PE money.

Thoughts?

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Now known as SCP. You’re probably not as familiar with them as they’re a much smaller CMG.
 
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So.
Good or bad?
Apes strong together.
Money printer go brrr.
I think time will tell, but I’d say it’s good for the docs who work for SCP, who have now exploded their corporate foot print. Meaning more jobs and shifts available locally, especially since everyone is short staffed right now.

Neutral to not so good for the APP
Docs, at least locally. Their pay might average out and go down.
 
Speaks to the challenges EM as a whole is facing. But app 2nd from the bottom of the diarrhea filled toilet. One rung above usacs.
 
Where does SCP fit?
It's quite possibly changed but they've historically had a lot of small contracts that paid meh. The docs I know that worked for them gave the impression of a slightly greasier Apollo but that was 15 yrs ago. Browsing their current job postings shows they're either full up at their flagship sites or that Houston Methodist is a big step up in terms of SCP's usual scale. Supposedly the Methodist docs at community sites are going to see a $50/hr increase following a reconfiguring of the payment algorithm. Unsure if that will be a long term thing or if they're just throwing out a big number to try and prevent a stampede to the door.
 
I’ve worked for APP, envision and SCP, and I’ve been treated fairly and better by SCP than the others. Their staffing model is lame, but that’s really my only bone to pick with them.
 
I’ve worked for APP, envision and SCP, and I’ve been treated fairly and better by SCP than the others. Their staffing model is lame, but that’s really my only bone to pick with them.
I mean that could be a severe negative. In my experience SCP had the worst pay of anywhere I looked. Bad staffing AND terrible pay? Sounds like a **** job cmg to me and a recipe for massive turnover and burnout
 
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I’m getting paid market rates comparable to other places in Houston.
 
I mean that could be a severe negative. In my experience SCP had the worst pay of anywhere I looked. Bad staffing AND terrible pay? Sounds like a **** job cmg to me and a recipe for massive turnover and burnout

SCP pays better than anyone... *anyone*... in south florida. And its not even close. Admittedly south florida has the following choices: like 8 Team Health failing hospitals, like 8 Envision slimeball but successful hospitals, one single democratic group but the pay is **** there, Jackson (Miami Dade County) employee, Broward County employee, VA government employee. So maybe the pickings are not the most robust.

Part of this is probably that south florida pays less than most other areas so whats "best in the region" down here might be only average elsewhere. Also I need to admit that if you are a Jackson employee and stay long enough, those yearly raises eventually make your hourly pay pretty nice if you can make it 15+ years. But thats only going to pan out if you join early in your career and just become a permanent fixture.
 
separate note on SCP. I work for them now, but have worked for envision (full time), teamhealth (prn, but for years now), and did quite a bit of locums work at a vituity run place. The culture of SCP is very dependent on who is your direct leadership. The original schumacher (before it was SCP) was a small contract management group, but it was at least doctors all the way up and down. The old-timers at my current job talk very fondly of the culture and ability to actually communicate concerns with anyone up the food chain. And even now, I've been able to talk to the CMO (technically one of two) of all of SCP about concerns we had at our site, and they get addressed. As long as your complaint isnt "I don't want to make the company money", they're extremely open to the idea that happy staff members are productive staff members and want to do what keeps you happy enough to keep producing. A few different "money saving" initiatives have been called off because we asked for a chance to prove we dont need x policy or y scheduling in order to accomplish z goal. In our case it was RVU per shift. we said we can document better if thats what they need, and we dodged a pay cut completely - ended up with a pay RAISE instead a few months later after they saw our results. Can only imagine how much money we made them if they were like "you did so good, you get a permanent pay raise" months after suggesting a pay cut.

I say it matters who is above you because they went from Schumacher to SCP after acquiring two other small groups and those small groups are also represented in the leadership hierarchy. Lets say one was known for being a bit malignant before being acquired and remains a bit malignant (I hear) with how they run their prior, and new, sites since then. Having access to the highest echelon of leadership doesn't matter as much when 'middle management' is lacking and they make more month-to-month decisions that matter to you. But that's true everywhere, just good to know that the top of the pyramid cares enough to listen and you stand a decent chance of being in a linear hierarchy where everyone cares enough to listen (and that if you're in a hierarchy where the people above you don't care to listen, there is actually options to legitimately plead your site's case to a level or two levels above).

Like anything, there are obviously places to improve. I'm not a multi-multi millionaire, which means someone is stealing money I should be making given the RVU beast I pride myself on being. But thats the nature of the whole contract management business.
 
separate note on SCP. I work for them now, but have worked for envision (full time), teamhealth (prn, but for years now), and did quite a bit of locums work at a vituity run place. The culture of SCP is very dependent on who is your direct leadership. The original schumacher (before it was SCP) was a small contract management group, but it was at least doctors all the way up and down. The old-timers at my current job talk very fondly of the culture and ability to actually communicate concerns with anyone up the food chain. And even now, I've been able to talk to the CMO (technically one of two) of all of SCP about concerns we had at our site, and they get addressed. As long as your complaint isnt "I don't want to make the company money", they're extremely open to the idea that happy staff members are productive staff members and want to do what keeps you happy enough to keep producing. A few different "money saving" initiatives have been called off because we asked for a chance to prove we dont need x policy or y scheduling in order to accomplish z goal. In our case it was RVU per shift. we said we can document better if thats what they need, and we dodged a pay cut completely - ended up with a pay RAISE instead a few months later after they saw our results. Can only imagine how much money we made them if they were like "you did so good, you get a permanent pay raise" months after suggesting a pay cut.

I say it matters who is above you because they went from Schumacher to SCP after acquiring two other small groups and those small groups are also represented in the leadership hierarchy. Lets say one was known for being a bit malignant before being acquired and remains a bit malignant (I hear) with how they run their prior, and new, sites since then. Having access to the highest echelon of leadership doesn't matter as much when 'middle management' is lacking and they make more month-to-month decisions that matter to you. But that's true everywhere, just good to know that the top of the pyramid cares enough to listen and you stand a decent chance of being in a linear hierarchy where everyone cares enough to listen (and that if you're in a hierarchy where the people above you don't care to listen, there is actually options to legitimately plead your site's case to a level or two levels above).

Like anything, there are obviously places to improve. I'm not a multi-multi millionaire, which means someone is stealing money I should be making given the RVU beast I pride myself on being. But thats the nature of the whole contract management business.

This is among the best CMG apologist posts I’ve ever read. You’re giddy that they gave you a raise because your group learned how to document, even while acknowledging that you made SCP more money, and your sanguine acceptance of the situation captures why EM as a specialty is so meek and has been run over.

FYI your temporary stall of the inexorably upward hike of the CMG’s take % of your deserved compensation by “improving your documentation” is likely only temporary, and also, unfortunately, means your group wasn’t adept at playing the game to be paid what you’re worth before (CMG or otherwise).

I can explain it to you, but I can’t make you understand it.
 
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This is among the best CMG apologist posts I’ve ever heard. You’re giddy that they gave you a raise because your group learned how to document, even while acknowledging that you made SCP more money.

There is so much wrong with the attitude and acceptance of the way it is in this response, that it captures why EM as a specialty is so meek and has been run over.

I can explain it to you, but I can’t make you understand it.

Its a business model, and I live in an area where my choices are to pick between various CMGs, get $185 per hour with the private group, or move my family. I get the business model and don't have the option to be puritanical about it since there are no other valid options (county and VA havent hired someone new outside of the local residency in years). So I'm very very VERY happy to live where I want to live and work for the people whose response to covid was "we don't want you guys getting burned out, so we are adding an EXTRA physician shift for extra coverage with all the people coding". And this was with them knowing our volumes went from 180-190 per day to 40-60. As well as the aforementioned discussion of cutting our pay, and us asking if there was anything we could do to avoid that, and they gave us a clear direction of what we could do and we got a raise instead.

The point being: Its benign people running a inherently parasitic business model. They want us (at least under my chain of hierarchy) to be happy and well paid enough that we don't have people switching jobs and don't have people burning out. Cynic view would be moderately happy people don't ask how much happier they could be - but it doesnt matter. Most of us are in the area we are in because we have families and very lucrative ties to the local community (read as: property) and don't intend to move. But we will 100% jump ship to another company if a better one existed, but its generally the TH and envision people pestering us as to when we will have an opening on our staffing.
 
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This is among the best CMG apologist posts I’ve ever read. You’re giddy that they gave you a raise because your group learned how to document, even while acknowledging that you made SCP more money, and your sanguine acceptance of the situation captures why EM as a specialty is so meek and has been run over.

FYI your temporary stall of the inexorably upward hike of the CMG’s take % of your deserved compensation by “improving your documentation” is likely only temporary, and also, unfortunately, means your group wasn’t adept at playing the game to be paid what you’re worth before (CMG or otherwise).

I can explain it to you, but I can’t make you understand it.
Dude, read the room. There are corporate shills that pop up from time to time here, doc isn't one of them. Sneering and berating someone that doesn't have access to a well-paying, fair SDG without uprooting their life is an ineffective way of trying to foster the solidarity that your implied goal for EM requires.

His post reads as written by someone that realizes they've been slightly less f$%#'ed by their CMG than most recently. My last CMG job (APP) made us take a 25% pay-cut as an involuntary "loan" to the company during COVID. The one before that (Team) made me hire my own lawyer to defend against an admin related board complaint caused by not following their own protocols. It's seems cool to collapse all CMGs down to evil incarnate straight from the Hellmouth.

But there's a world of difference between "I'm going to get paid a fraction of the money being billed in my name" which is industry standard CMG drek and
1)"I don't know when or if I'm getting a paycheck this month"
2)"the company's accounting is too incompetent to accurately pay out an RVU/hr model"
3)"they're just looking for a physician sponge to soak up midlevel risk"
4)"corporate policy requires me to do things that would cause sanctions against my license if discovered"

It doesn't matter if you're sitting on the outside, but there are layers to this evil and for 100-something EM docs in Houston "Is SCP going to screw us harder than APP did?" is more than an academic question.
 
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The CMG model will drive EM comp down, while the ACEP clowns felate congress to pay more.

Sadly, as I mentioned before I think the haves and have nots in EM will greatly divide over time. If everyone believes that CMGs had better contracts before the NSA logic would be that SDGs will get the CMG rates (minus the OON stuff). So pay raise for SDGs and financial ruin for CMGs. I dont think this is how it has played out (yet).

In general SDGs have gotten smacked but only a little bit like the CMGs.
 
This is among the best CMG apologist posts I’ve ever read. You’re giddy that they gave you a raise because your group learned how to document, even while acknowledging that you made SCP more money, and your sanguine acceptance of the situation captures why EM as a specialty is so meek and has been run over.

FYI your temporary stall of the inexorably upward hike of the CMG’s take % of your deserved compensation by “improving your documentation” is likely only temporary, and also, unfortunately, means your group wasn’t adept at playing the game to be paid what you’re worth before (CMG or otherwise).

I can explain it to you, but I can’t make you understand it.
My guess is that a majority of people here aren’t paid what they’re worth. That’s an unfortunate reality because most people are going to do what’s best for them and their family. For many, that includes having to work for a CMG. I don’t necessarily blame these people because they’re just doing what’s best for them personally. I don’t blame the average pit doc. I do blame those who take leadership and admin roles with these CMGs.
 
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Dude, read the room. There are corporate shills that pop up from time to time here, doc isn't one of them. Sneering and berating someone that doesn't have access to a well-paying, fair SDG without uprooting their life is an ineffective way of trying to foster the solidarity that your implied goal for EM requires.

His post reads as written by someone that realizes they've been slightly less f$%#'ed by their CMG than most recently. My last CMG job (APP) made us take a 25% pay-cut as an involuntary "loan" to the company during COVID. The one before that (Team) made me hire my own lawyer to defend against an admin related board complaint caused by not following their own protocols. It's seems cool to collapse all CMGs down to evil incarnate straight from the Hellmouth.

But there's a world of difference between "I'm going to get paid a fraction of the money being billed in my name" which is industry standard CMG drek and
1)"I don't know when or if I'm getting a paycheck this month"
2)"the company's accounting is too incompetent to accurately pay out an RVU/hr model"
3)"they're just looking for a physician sponge to soak up midlevel risk"
4)"corporate policy requires me to do things that would cause sanctions against my license if discovered"

It doesn't matter if you're sitting on the outside, but there are layers to this evil and for 100-something EM docs in Houston "Is SCP going to screw us harder than APP did?" is more than an academic question.

(Shrug) The point is physicians at one time had a choice not to work for CMGs. But too many found a reason not to fight the good fight - family, momentum, other businesses/property to manage, inconvenience, self rationalization that “it’s not that bad, we could be worse off!” and over time the collective lethargy of those people to sacrifice short term led to what we have now where it’s reached critical mass and in many locales there is no alternative. It’s painful to move and uproot, no doubt about it.
 
(Shrug) The point is physicians at one time had a choice not to work for CMGs. But too many found a reason not to fight the good fight - family, momentum, other businesses/property to manage, inconvenience, self rationalization that “it’s not that bad, we could be worse off!” and over time the collective lethargy of those people to sacrifice short term led to what we have now where it’s reached critical mass and in many locales there is no alternative. It’s painful to move and uproot, no doubt about it.
I've been out 15 years with half a dozen state licenses and I've never lived in an area that had a viable SDG within commuting distance. There have been a couple of small groups where the doc that owned the contract was an order of magnitude wealthier than anyone else in the group (and subsequently sold to a CMG), some pyramid sounding FSED ventures that mostly failed, academic centers where clinical time was reimbursed at 50-75% of community rates, and then a vast ocean of CMGs.

Our specialty decided collectively to market itself as "when you're off you're off" and that's been a major selling point to multiple generations of EM physicians. A lot of EM docs feel any work that's not compensated at the same level as being in the pit is an unreasonable imposition. These docs voted with their feet for years looking for high pay with no off shift responsibilities. Everything that's happened in EM traces back to that basic desire.

The good fight has never been "f@^% CMGs, stick it to the man by joining an SDG". The good fight was spending hours in staff meetings, building relations with prickly specialists, sitting in utilization review meetings, and having every member of the group have keeping the contract as a top priority. The stuff that allows an SDG to stay an SDG and the stuff that every other specialty that's not at the top of the hospital food chain accepts as the cost of staying in business. Instead we vilify admin work as being for sell-outs and docs that can't hack it clinically, and bitterly resent anyone suggesting that we modify how we interact with patients or staff.

This <gestures broadly> was inevitable. The path that led to this was paved by docs that are a generation before the oldest regular posters on SDN. FB is probably a better venue for "you're all bootlicking sellouts" since there you can at least fight with Dom or stan Arthur and maybe some of the docs reading will briefly feel bad about their life choices.

Then they'll look around their giant homes filled with the mementos of a lifetime of adventures. Adventures they had because they chose not to attend cardiology section meetings and watch two interventionalists scream for an hour at each other about what drug-eluting stent the hospital should order. And I suspect they'll be broadly fine with their choices.
 
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I've been out 15 years with half a dozen state licenses and I've never lived in an area that had a viable SDG within commuting distance. There have been a couple of small groups where the doc that owned the contract was an order of magnitude wealthier than anyone else in the group (and subsequently sold to a CMG), some pyramid sounding FSED ventures that mostly failed, academic centers where clinical time was reimbursed at 50-75% of community rates, and then a vast ocean of CMGs.

Our specialty decided collectively to market itself as "when you're off you're off" and that's been a major selling point to multiple generations of EM physicians. A lot of EM docs feel any work that's not compensated at the same level as being in the pit is an unreasonable imposition. These docs voted with their feet for years looking for high pay with no off shift responsibilities. Everything that's happened in EM traces back to that basic desire.

The good fight has never been "f@^% CMGs, stick it to the man by joining an SDG". The good fight was spending hours in staff meetings, building relations with prickly specialists, sitting in utilization review meetings, and having every member of the group have keeping the contract as a top priority. The stuff that allows an SDG to stay an SDG and the stuff that every other specialty that's not at the top of the hospital food chain accepts as the cost of staying in business. Instead we vilify admin work as being for sell-outs and docs that can't hack it clinically, and bitterly resent anyone suggesting that we modify how we interact with patients or staff.

This was inevitable. The path that led to this was paved by docs that are a generation before the oldest regular posters on SDN. FB is probably a better venue for "you're all bootlicking sellouts" since there you can at least fight with Dom or stan Arthur and maybe some of the docs reading will briefly feel bad about their life choices.

Then they'll look around their giant homes filled with the mementos of a lifetime of adventures. Adventures they had because they chose not to attend cardiology section meetings and watch two interventionalists scream for an hour at each other about what drug-eluting stent the hospital should order. And I suspect they'll be broadly fine with their choices.

Yeah. No idea where you’re detouring to here with regard to many of those points in your EM world review there, but certainly as a snapshot in time you’ve identified some talking-point issues, I guess.

My point that got this tangent started was that if you needed a CMG to prompt you to get savvy about your documentation, and are now unwilling to walk away from your CMG for, well, reasons (noble or otherwise) then this is proof of how we’ve become victims all according to the CMG plan.
 
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SDG were just a predatory they just did their predation for their “pre partners” also since the SDG requires more work and meetings, the compensation must be more.
 
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I know that I am not paid what I'm worth. Therefore, I reduce my productivity to compensate.
 
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Is this public yet or just a rumor? Is it for all APP sites or just the Houston Methodist sites?
 
No one ever presents a CMG in a glowing light. My SDG is incredible even if we have our own aches and pains. It’s in a great state, probably one of the most popular for EM. We occasionally hire. It’s not impossible to get into like the past era of FSED ownership success. But sure, if you are dead set on South Florida you may have a problem. Trust me, there is lots of great country. If you really think you are geographically limited, think long and hard about that. I’ve seen people move for our job and then seen a bunch of their family also then relocate. You might not know what you’re missing until you see the dollars and the control over your practice environment. EM is still EM, but it doesn’t have to be CMG different shades of terrible.
 
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Man, I can't believe all you guys are still regulars here...good to see it though.
 
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I've worked for CMG, hospital employee, and interviewed (and offered) spot at only "SDG" in town. They're all predatory. The only difference between the CMG and hospital is the treatment i saw of docs during covid, which was a black swan event, hopefully to never happen again.
 
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I would agree with Mount. There are craptastic SDGs. However there are really good ones. I think im underpaid for my work but at least the books are open. Note I dont consider my pay as compared to other EM docs but rather to other physicians and in what we have to deal with and the resources provided.

I dont think im worth less than ortho. I frankly work harder than they do. The ortho guys i know make $1M+ and i dont. Hence im underpaid In my opinion. Others in here might think i make 225/hr and it is fairly easy so im paid “fairly”. Thats fine. My job isnt easy but it’s set up that way and its the way we want it.

I would posit as i have before most of the predatory SDGs are gone now. The only ones who remain are fake like USACS.
 
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The original schumacher (before it was SCP) was a small contract management group, but it was at least doctors all the way up and down. The old-timers at my current job talk very fondly of the culture and ability to actually communicate concerns with anyone up the food chain. And even now, I've been able to talk to the CMO (technically one of two) of all of SCP about concerns we had at our site, and they get addressed. As long as your complaint isnt "I don't want to make the company money", they're extremely open to the idea that happy staff members are productive staff members and want to do what keeps you happy enough to keep producing.

This was my experience also in working for the original Schumacher. I had a pretty decent experience. Compensation was fair, kind of a 2/3 base with 1/3 production incentive from what I remember. Pay was actually pretty good for the area. The usual metric corporate focus but it wasn't rammed down your throat. Admin was approachable. I haven't worked for them since the name change and when I did work for them that must have been 10 years ago. All the local initiatives seemed to be very driven by regional leadership who had a very hands on approach.
 
No one ever presents a CMG in a glowing light. My SDG is incredible even if we have our own aches and pains. It’s in a great state, probably one of the most popular for EM. We occasionally hire. It’s not impossible to get into like the past era of FSED ownership success. But sure, if you are dead set on South Florida you may have a problem. Trust me, there is lots of great country. If you really think you are geographically limited, think long and hard about that. I’ve seen people move for our job and then seen a bunch of their family also then relocate. You might not know what you’re missing until you see the dollars and the control over your practice environment. EM is still EM, but it doesn’t have to be CMG different shades of terrible.

Ehhh.... I've been in NYC, upstate NY, rural Maryland, Baltimore, outside of Cincinnati area, and West Virginia. I realize that's all east of the Mississippi, but South Florida (land of the CMG stranglehold) pays much better than anything I saw at any of the other places AND I already made the family (and extended family) pick up and move here because I did check other places and the grass was greenest here for my career.
 
I'm in a SDG that isn't predatory. We have the usual aches and pains, but a stellar unicorn job. I see over an over again a theme that "SDG's" can't take over CMG contracts, but see the other threads. It's just a matter of time before CMG's are on the chopping block, and it'll take a group of 10+ docs to band together and take the contract back. We all have seen/known the crappy groups (SDG, CMG and academic). Try to get to know as much as you can about the group before you sign, and realize that the only power they have over you is your own desire to stay in that region... otherwise you hold the power to walk... or stay.
 
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So I was told that APP merged or was bought by Core Clinical Partners, not SCP...is this true?
 
Does anyone have an update on this? Seems like the news came out and then there's been nothing since...curious to hear from anyone working with APP and what the deal is.
 
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Hearing the rumor the deal is gonna fall thru. That will be announced soon. Sharks circling.
 
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Confirmed. Deal collapsed. Chaos likely coming. Good luck out there.
 
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Hmmm....a lot of contracts about to be up for grabs here soon...
 
I'm in a SDG that isn't predatory. We have the usual aches and pains, but a stellar unicorn job. I see over an over again a theme that "SDG's" can't take over CMG contracts, but see the other threads. It's just a matter of time before CMG's are on the chopping block, and it'll take a group of 10+ docs to band together and take the contract back. We all have seen/known the crappy groups (SDG, CMG and academic). Try to get to know as much as you can about the group before you sign, and realize that the only power they have over you is your own desire to stay in that region... otherwise you hold the power to walk... or stay.
Especially since you took control of your own billing. Great group, also a hard one to join if you aren't fresh out of residency.

Utah is unique in EM. It's also very, very hard to get a job. And the whole staying in the region thing is a big deal in Utah and EM. I know a few folks who have left your group over the years, but it's rare. Who leaves a job in Utah in EM? No one, pretty much.
 
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I heard that SCP is getting to pick the contracts that they want. Is that true or just total APP collapse?
 
Gonna be interesting because APP has a lot of contracts that no one in their right mind would want...what happens to those contracts?
 
Supposedly scp is gonna take the christus contracts and banner. The Tennova contracts are getting pieced out.

Everything is tbd. More news and clarity tomorrow. A lot of chaos to ensue.
 
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