terminal surgeries at Ross, other carribean schools, and U.S Schools

[pitbull lover]

Hello, I know this has been discussed before, but I wanted to know any information and opinions on terminal surgeries. I especially want to hear from students who are choosing alternatives to this. Can you keep your principles and still get a good education?

Specifically, I was told by a graduate from Ross that the school basically raises animals (cats,dogs,donkeys?) for the students to perform terminal surgeries on. To me this seems even worse than getting dogs/cats from shelters; these ross animals are already pre-designated to be killed.

Two questions: 1) Does anyone know if St. George's and St. Matthew's have terminal surgeries and if they raise animals specifically for this? 2)For students in the U.S. that have performed terminal surgeries, what school do you attend and what were you told about where the animals come from, and what was your experience like?

I've read some posts about this, and I've heard students say "I know I'll get better skills this way; I believe this is done for a good cause; I don't want to mess up on a real patient when I'm practicing".....

What I want to know is if you struggled with your beliefs or principles; were you in pain about it? The more candid the better.

Thanks,
second-time applicant for '08 application cycle.

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[pressmom]

It is pretty common to raise animals specifically for terminal surgeries. I know the ones here at UTK are at the end of their lives doing pharmacy trials and are slated for euthanasia anyway, so why not get one more learning experience out of them? I've met the animals and they are not adoptable and they are, by and large, over 7 years old.

The two reasons that have been explained to me for using purpose-bred animals are

1. PR--the public gets angry that you might be doing a terminal surgery on their next-door neighbor's runaway.

2. You know their health history.

The reason you do them and euthanize rather than recover is that often the surgeries are painful and many times more than one surgery will be done on each animal at the same time. (At least that's the way it is at UTK--you do like 4 surgeries, all under anesthesia and then you euthanize while still asleep.) There are horrible stories from the old days when they'd recover and do another procedure and the patient would dehiss overnight, etc. Personally, I think it is more cruel to recover them.

And I'd like to say, I'm not talking about spays and neuters, I'm talking about liver biopsies and enucleations, things like that.

 

[critterfixer]

I'd also like to say that at UTK, this is an elective course. The only surgeries anyone is required to perform are the spay and neuter labs in second year. The terminal surgeries are not required of anyone.

There are plenty of opportunities, via working in the clinic over break and electives, to learn to perform more complicated surgeries and to observe and assist, and our clinicians are very good at letting students actually learn during the clinical year during procedures done on client animals. I don't feel I will be missing out by not taking the elective course. One course is not going to make or break a surgeon, and I believe we will all need mentoring after graduation in any case. YMMV.

 

[pets behave]

ross does not raise its own terminal surgery patients.

 

[pitbull lover]

Thank you guys for responding. Pets Behave, so how does Ross get its animals? Do you know anymore information?

Does anyone know if Ross has alternatives to terminal surgeries like most U.S. schools do?

 

[aggiegolf]

We don't perform terminal surgeries at St. Matthew's.

 

[lopezz]

Hi pitbull lover,
Nice thread! I really like your provided information. It's really helpful for me.
Thanks a lot!

 

[SweeTeaPie]

The reason you do them and euthanize rather than recover is that often the surgeries are painful and many times more than one surgery will be done on each animal at the same time. (At least that's the way it is at UTK--you do like 4 surgeries, all under anesthesia and then you euthanize while still asleep.) There are horrible stories from the old days when they'd recover and do another procedure and the patient would dehiss overnight, etc. Personally, I think it is more cruel to recover them.

And I'd like to say, I'm not talking about spays and neuters, I'm talking about liver biopsies and enucleations, things like that.

I'll probably come off as sounding a bit naive, but I always thought that the point of practicing surgery was to develop the skills necessary to SAVE a patient. So by practicing terminal surgeries, how are you going to know if you did your job correctly? Shouldn't you at least attempt to recover your patient? I mean, a dog hit by a car might need multiple surgeries too, but you don't just euthanize it after opening it up and working on it for six hours, right?
Sorry, I just always thought it would make more sense to actually learn how to perform a surgery AND recover your patient... that way you REALLY know if you're doing something right. I mean, it's easy enough to cut something up make a mistake you don't even know about and then euthanize it, right? But it takes skill to recover it. I don't know, I think you'd be learning more that way than just by practicing a whole bunch of surgeries on one animal... so are there any OTHER reasons why surgeries are terminal?

 

[critterfixer]

SweeTeaPie, when you operate on a "real" patient, you have not caused unnecessary pain. If a dog was dragged by a car and run over, the pain of recovering from complex orthopedic surgery is part and parcel for the recovery of the patient. Nothing the veterinarian does is CAUSING pain the animal wouldn't ALREADY be feeling due to its injuries.

In the case of teaching animals, the ONLY reason they would feel pain is if we were to "recover" them from surgery. It seems unethical to me to do so, because they were not going to experience pain regardless, like the HBC animal. Thus, if a bunch of bones are going to be broken so that the student doctor can learn to set them, it is much kinder never to let that animal wake up and experience the pain. I've had bone surgery, and it is the most intense pain I've ever felt.

 

[littlehooves]

I'll probably come off as sounding a bit naive, but I always thought that the point of practicing surgery was to develop the skills necessary to SAVE a patient. So by practicing terminal surgeries, how are you going to know if you did your job correctly? Shouldn't you at least attempt to recover your patient? I mean, a dog hit by a car might need multiple surgeries too, but you don't just euthanize it after opening it up and working on it for six hours, right?
Sorry, I just always thought it would make more sense to actually learn how to perform a surgery AND recover your patient... that way you REALLY know if you're doing something right. I mean, it's easy enough to cut something up make a mistake you don't even know about and then euthanize it, right? But it takes skill to recover it. I don't know, I think you'd be learning more that way than just by practicing a whole bunch of surgeries on one animal... so are there any OTHER reasons why surgeries are terminal?

good point, but I would think of surgery/recovery as a learning process. I'm not a vet student, but I would assume its probably better to learn this stuff in stages. On a terminal surgery, you can make mistakes and you'll have a vet look everything over. Your first surgery probably won't be perfect. When you're learning recoveries, you can learn how to properly do so on an animal that was 'done' properly. It would be kind of overwhelming to throw you a dog for your first orthopedic surgery, tell you to fix it, and recover it on your own, and expect it to be done perfectly. Just what I was thinking when I read your post...

 

[SweeTeaPie]

In the case of teaching animals, the ONLY reason they would feel pain is if we were to "recover" them from surgery.

Good point; I'll buy that

It would be kind of overwhelming to throw you a dog for your first orthopedic surgery, tell you to fix it, and recover it on your own, and expect it to be done perfectly. Just what I was thinking when I read your post...

Of course not.. However, I don't suspect that your average Vet. Student is going to get thrown into an orthopedic surgery on their own without guidance. Isn't that more something that you would encounter in a surgery residency, anyway? It's just that you can't exactly do terminal surgeries on humans, now can you? So, why can we do them on animals? Why don't Veterinary Surgeons take the same approach as Medical/Human Surgeons? Don't get me wrong; I'm not a bleeding heart that's against terminal surgeries. I expect I'll do my fair share of them and heck, I've done hundreds of them on mice already. I just fail to understand why we do to animals what we wouldn't do to people. Is it just because we want to learn it in less time? I mean, if that's why, it seems to come across as slightly lazy, doesn't it. Or maybe veterinarians consider themselves lucky because their subjects/patients/learning tools are more disposable and they get to practice more and become better at their trade BEFORE they go out in the field... maybe that's the answer. MD's can't exactly practice surgeries on little orphan children, can they. There's just soemthing about that, however, that rubs me the wrong way...

 

[chordy4]

i'm not going to get too involved in this whole topic...but i did just want to comment that medical students often practice certain surgical techniques on animals as well, so it's not as if they're just jumping into learning these techniques during residency either.

 

[Bill59]

Why don't Veterinary Surgeons take the same approach as Medical/Human Surgeons?

You mean practice on animals?

 

[SweeTeaPie]

You mean practice on animals?

They do as well? Ok; I wasn't aware of that.

I wasn't trying to get all riled up, I was just curious more than anything. I didn't really have a STRONG opinion on the matter, that's why I was legitimately asking questions.

I started thinking about it because a friend of mine who is an MD/PhD student actually asked ME those questions. He had said "Why would you practice terminal surgery; Isn't the point of surgery to recover your patient?" So I assumed that MD students didn't practice on animals from his question. I hadn't personally thought much about it up until that point.

So thanks for the responses; they all make sense.

 

[chris03333]

i'm not going to get too involved in this whole topic...but i did just want to comment that medical students often practice certain surgical techniques on animals as well, so it's not as if they're just jumping into learning these techniques during residency either.

Many many surgical residents (meaning human surgical residents) spend a lot of time operating on animals also.

 

[alliecat44]

I'd also like to point out another fundamental difference in the human field versus the veterinary, since that seems to be a big issue. Not only do human medical students/surgical residents practice procedures on animals, but human surgeons have an intense, prolonged period of very closely-supervised training--a residency--before they are allowed to operate independently. Veterinary medicine is very different, as our graduates are expected/required to do surgery pretty much the day we graduate. Often, these new grads are without very close supervision--mentoring varies widely from practice to practice.

This doesn't apply to "just" spays and neuters, either. If you're a new grad and a GDV walks in your door, your boss is out of town, and the nearest emergency clinic is two hours away, you are expected to cut that sucker. Even if you've never done one. Hemoabdomen? Same thing. VERY different from human medicine.

The question of whether doing a given procedure once--during a terminal surgery or a recovered surgery--is truly beneficial at preparing someone for surgery after they graduate is debatable. I myself have do not yet have direct experience with this, and so can't comment. There's an interesting thread on VIN about how much surgical training folks had in vet school and how well they felt it prepared them for surgery in practice. There are some surprising viewpoints and experiences.

 

[StealthDog]

Alliecat, where's that VIN thread?

 

[alliecat44]

Alliecat, where's that VIN thread?

Hi, StealthDog!

It's under "New and Not So New Grads" and I think the title was something like "alternative surgery track." Last post was 6/28/08 if you're a searcher-by-dater. Hope that helps. Let me know if this doesn't nail it down for you.

 

[StealthDog]

Thank you! Great thread!

 

[WannaFixFounder]

Thank you! Great thread!

Too bad these aren't facts, though.

Ross does not do ANY terminal surgeries at this point. This is something upsetting to students already enrolled in the program who wanted to gain the valuable experience.

And there isn't an animal shelter on St Kitts. And the animals used previously in terminal surgeries are not raised to be killed. They are not bred intentionally. They were abandoned animals that are usually suffering on the streets. Now they are still roaming the streets. Many locals can barely support themselves and literally can not afford to give vet care to their pet (and many think of pet in much different terms than Americans do).

Just FYI, except for Western, I have not heard of any vet school that does not use left over dead dogs from animal shelters for anatomy dissection. At CSU, I saw a very young (maybe 3-4 month old) pit bull puppy that was killed, as well as several very geriatric large breed dogs. We were told by the shelter manager that the dogs (over 50% of what came into the local animal shelter) were put down because there were clearly un-adoptable for a severe medical condition or behavioral reason. People who work at the shelter, and the local pit bull rescue, will tell you otherwise.

 

[Angelo84]

Just FYI, except for Western, I have not heard of any vet school that does not use left over dead dogs from animal shelters for anatomy dissection. At CSU, I saw a very young (maybe 3-4 month old) pit bull puppy that was killed, as well as several very geriatric large breed dogs. We were told by the shelter manager that the dogs (over 50% of what came into the local animal shelter) were put down because there were clearly un-adoptable for a severe medical condition or behavioral reason. People who work at the shelter, and the local pit bull rescue, will tell you otherwise.

For small animal anatomy at tufts all animals are client owned animals that are donated after euthanasia at the hospital.

 

[StealthDog]

Too bad these aren't facts, though.

Sorry for the confusion- I was thanking alliecat for the link to the VIN thread.

 

[WannaFixFounder]

For small animal anatomy at tufts all animals are client owned animals that are donated after euthanasia at the hospital.

Yeah for Tufts!!!!!! I wish more schools did that.

 

[twelvetigers]

Links to Ross U's animal welfare and use policies:

http://www.rossu.edu/veterinary-school/files/Animal use on St Kitts--April 11 2007.pdf

http://www.rossu.edu/veterinary-school/files/AnimalWelfare.pdf

They mention "both survival and terminal surgeries on multiple species" but it's from 2007 so they could have changed since then.