Terminated from residency, Applying again, Need advice

[Crayola227]

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8 patients during weekdays and 10 to 12 patients during weekends as an intern. 5 overnight admissions if on night call.

To be clear, while everyone here says that's not a lot, it IS, for the struggling intern. As one might expect, the inability to carry this load is an issue.

Everyone who comes in, that clearly has come to manage this load, is NOT helping when they say that it isn't a lot. It is.

The reality is that yes, there are some programs with a little less work load than this, or better support, right or wrong.

And it's been discussed that how front loaded a program is, if a one senior one intern team with 10 patients D1, etc can make a difference to success. To quote Perrotfish, it can be like giving someone with no training a 100 lb barbell D1 and then wondering why they never get strong enough to lift it.

That said, yes, it is a lot. And yes, there may be ways to take someone who didn't make it and train them up.

The issue isn't whether or not it's a lot or can someone do better somewhere with less.

The reality is that training just doesn't work that way, and practically speaking you can't rely on an easier program than standard, and you will have to get to that level of functioning regardless.

I think what people want you to see is, that yes, it is a lot for you, which is the problem. It isn't a lot for others. It is the allowed workload for interns because it is expected. If you need a different workload, you may have to swallow a different specialty.

OP likely knows all this, but has some hope there is another way that would work.

I just get frustrated that someone is terminated from residency because the load is too much for them, to be told it isn't that much. It is. Good for everyone that can do it. The point isn't arguing that, it's the sad fact that yes it's a lot for anyone, and no you're not a deficient person or untrainable, but it can be done and must.

 

[rokshana]

I see now, on further reflection, that there were a few responses that just shut me down.

OP did come in with a certain... I wanna call it the "naivete of the terminated resident" that hasn't maximized their recovery and introspection yet. Most responses were helpful if brusque. A few were outright cruel. OP has taken some of it to heart. I just always wish a few things that didn't need to be said, weren't said, that's all.

he was terminated in march...its been awhile.

 

[Crayola227]

we was terminated in march...its been awhile.

so less than a year? well within the grief time frame for major losses like this

 

[deleted839398]

Guys, I am thankful for all the help. Although I really wanted to respond to each post here, I can't. Crayola227, thank you for all the support.

One thing I wanted to be clear is you are not the in charge of my life and I am not the in charge of your life. Even if I explain everything in detail about what happened. I am sure that most people would not understand. I sincerely request the conversation to be directed towards my further plan - like specialties that I should focus on, how do I work towards that goal. If I can delete all the remaining posts - I would have - no offense to anyone. I see a lot of entitlement here in the forum. As I said, if your life is messy, go bash your intern, he will remain silent. No matter at what stage you are in your career, you are nothing here in a random forum with a random name, nobody wants to hear how successful you are, how much you worked - I think you need a counselor more than me. Go talk all out and then come here and direct the conversation in a useful way.

 

[deleted839398]

he was terminated in march...its been awhile.

Who are you to tell me how much time I need to rehabilitate? Are you not acting entitled here? I will say drinking is bad, I don't understand why people drink. How do you feel? Doesn't it hurt your feelings. I think you should have set very strict goals to that obese lady and she gave up on you. You are unfit to be a doctor. Am I doing a good job here? Does it help you?

I saw this in my work environment too. Seniors who are moody, unnecessarily come and torture us. I don't know I am always the soft target for them.

 

[deleted839398]

To be clear, while everyone here says that's not a lot, it IS, for the struggling intern. As one might expect, the inability to carry this load is an issue.

Everyone who comes in, that clearly has come to manage this load, is NOT helping when they say that it isn't a lot. It is.

The reality is that yes, there are some programs with a little less work load than this, or better support, right or wrong.

And it's been discussed that how front loaded a program is, if a one senior one intern team with 10 patients D1, etc can make a difference to success. To quote Perrotfish, it can be like giving someone with no training a 100 lb barbell D1 and then wondering why they never get strong enough to lift it.

That said, yes, it is a lot. And yes, there may be ways to take someone who didn't make it and train them up.

The issue isn't whether or not it's a lot or can someone do better somewhere with less.

The reality is that training just doesn't work that way, and practically speaking you can't rely on an easier program than standard, and you will have to get to that level of functioning regardless.

I think what people want you to see is, that yes, it is a lot for you, which is the problem. It isn't a lot for others. It is the allowed workload for interns because it is expected. If you need a different workload, you may have to swallow a different specialty.

OP likely knows all this, but has some hope there is another way that would work.

I just get frustrated that someone is terminated from residency because the load is too much for them, to be told it isn't that much. It is. Good for everyone that can do it. The point isn't arguing that, it's the sad fact that yes it's a lot for anyone, and no you're not a deficient person or untrainable, but it can be done and must.

You are right what you said about the patient load. But, this is not the sole reason for what happened. I already said multiple times I don't want to talk about what happened in my program and what should have I/they done. All I can say is with right kind of support and inclusion, I can succeed and I know it. And I don't need advice in that regard. People are just trying to draw clues from what I said to torture me. I am already tortured people, cant you see. You are doing no good. I don't need your so-called realistic advice, people. What's reality for you should not have to be reality for others.

 

[Crayola227]

To be fair, I realized atomi's comment to you on the first page about being dangerous, basically made me see red and then the rest seemed really bad. So I can see how that happens.

My post quite honestly is a just a generic rant about the headspace terminated residents are in, and where I think the clash in these threads begins.

I am now egg on my face to say, I recognize and can see where you, being in your shoes, felt bullied, BUT.

However, I will say that compared to all these threads I've stepped in deeply over the years, yours does stand out in that most posters treated you reasonably, and you were... more than sensitive, which you can see I excuse.

I just stood up for you, and you're not just being defensive about perceived attacks, it's the way you're attacking people now. I basically said they were mean jerks that didn't understand, I get that. You're starting to throw things out there in a way that does actually make me wonder.

It goes against everything inside me to tell you, I sorta want to join the mean kids and give you the smack down. And that does worry me about this whole story, and how this will play out for you in the future. I sincerely hoping we're basically just seeing a digital version of your worst day ever self, and that's as far as those traits go.

I'm starting to wonder if troll particularly just because you attack, and then you back down. And rinse repeat. Could just be sincere, but trolls do it too.

If not a troll, I just described what you've done on thread. Not because I think you're a mean bad person or untrainable doctor.

I've been in a lot of shoes, and in yours, I probably would have figured out at some point you can't win this, and give up. If I had just one person defend me, that would have been enough to help my wounded ego process all the difficult words of advice I had recieved. I would have figured out that if you are dealing with mean, entitled, selfish, racist people, nothing you say will change that, and walk away.

As someone noted, these threads all play out a certain way, everyone plays their roles. Much like training. How sad.

Anyway, you're not likely to get much out of continuing to reply to this thread, and in my opinion there's enough previous threads to basically educate you on what you can do to get your career going again. I would read them. You could come back if you have questions that are related more to how your situation is different. But based on what's been said already, I think you'll be well served by the old threads. It might be easier to process some of the advice and criticisms that were offered here, if it's not directed at you.

 

[deleted480308]

So when a PD says, “explain to me how I can be confident that you will be successful here wheb you were not at your last place”, what will you say?

 

[deleted839398]

To be fair, I realized atomi's comment to you on the first page about being dangerous, basically made me see red and then the rest seemed really bad. So I can see how that happens.

My post quite honestly is a just a generic rant about the headspace terminated residents are in, and where I think the clash in these threads begins.

I am now egg on my face to say, I recognize and can see where you, being in your shoes, felt bullied, BUT.

However, I will say that compared to all these threads I've stepped in deeply over the years, yours does stand out in that most posters treated you reasonably, and you were... more than sensitive, which you can see I excuse.

I just stood up for you, and you're not just being defensive about perceived attacks, it's the way you're attacking people now. I basically said they were mean jerks that didn't understand, I get that. You're starting to throw things out there in a way that does actually make me wonder.

It goes against everything inside me to tell you, I sorta want to join the mean kids and give you the smack down. And that does worry me about this whole story, and how this will play out for you in the future. I sincerely hoping we're basically just seeing a digital version of your worst day ever self, and that's as far as those traits go.

I'm starting to wonder if troll particularly just because you attack, and then you back down. And rinse repeat. Could just be sincere, but trolls do it too.

If not a troll, I just described what you've done on thread. Not because I think you're a mean bad person or untrainable doctor.

I've been in a lot of shoes, and in yours, I probably would have figured out at some point you can't win this, and give up. If I had just one person defend me, that would have been enough to help my wounded ego process all the difficult words of advice I had recieved. I would have figured out that if you are dealing with mean, entitled, selfish, racist people, nothing you say will change that, and walk away.

As someone noted, these threads all play out a certain way, everyone plays their roles. Much like training. How sad.

Anyway, you're not likely to get much out of continuing to reply to this thread, and in my opinion there's enough previous threads to basically educate you on what you can do to get your career going again. I would read them. You could come back if you have questions that are related more to how your situation is different. But based on what's been said already, I think you'll be well served by the old threads. It might be easier to process some of the advice and criticisms that were offered here, if it's not directed at you.

I just want people to realize that nobody is perfect in this world and life is a lifelong process of learning. Just because I was terminated does not mean I am no less of a person than them and I need help. I need help, not in my personal life but in my professional goals. When I say this, they say, I am unteachable, not receptive to feedback blah, blah. I only urge them not to judge me by what I write here. I am more than that and I know I am more than that. I am replying to every personalized comment because I don't want them to go home thinking that they are right. No, they are not. I want them to see what they are doing. I would rather give a harsh smack to make them realize right away, so that they think twice about doing that to other person.

 

[geripalgal]

To be fair, I realized atomi's comment to you on the first page about being dangerous, basically made me see red and then the rest seemed really bad. So I can see how that happens.

My post quite honestly is a just a generic rant about the headspace terminated residents are in, and where I think the clash in these threads begins.

I am now egg on my face to say, I recognize and can see where you, being in your shoes, felt bullied, BUT.

However, I will say that compared to all these threads I've stepped in deeply over the years, yours does stand out in that most posters treated you reasonably, and you were... more than sensitive, which you can see I excuse.

I just stood up for you, and you're not just being defensive about perceived attacks, it's the way you're attacking people now. I basically said they were mean jerks that didn't understand, I get that. You're starting to throw things out there in a way that does actually make me wonder.

It goes against everything inside me to tell you, I sorta want to join the mean kids and give you the smack down. And that does worry me about this whole story, and how this will play out for you in the future. I sincerely hoping we're basically just seeing a digital version of your worst day ever self, and that's as far as those traits go.

I'm starting to wonder if troll particularly just because you attack, and then you back down. And rinse repeat. Could just be sincere, but trolls do it too.

If not a troll, I just described what you've done on thread. Not because I think you're a mean bad person or untrainable doctor.

I've been in a lot of shoes, and in yours, I probably would have figured out at some point you can't win this, and give up. If I had just one person defend me, that would have been enough to help my wounded ego process all the difficult words of advice I had recieved. I would have figured out that if you are dealing with mean, entitled, selfish, racist people, nothing you say will change that, and walk away.

As someone noted, these threads all play out a certain way, everyone plays their roles. Much like training. How sad.

Anyway, you're not likely to get much out of continuing to reply to this thread, and in my opinion there's enough previous threads to basically educate you on what you can do to get your career going again. I would read them. You could come back if you have questions that are related more to how your situation is different. But based on what's been said already, I think you'll be well served by the old threads. It might be easier to process some of the advice and criticisms that were offered here, if it's not directed at you.

Crayola - although as a mother I dont agree with your analogy comparing the loss of the american doctor dream as anywhere close to the loss of a beloved child - i actually liked your post, and hoped for the better. To see the OP continue to react and and lash out to even your support is confusing. Im sensing a troll as well.

To the OP: probably the best and last advice from me- stop posting regarding this topic on SDN. if you can filter through the speculative theories and negativity you will find that you have actually recived a lot of helpful advice. Hope you find success, good luck.

 

[deleted839398]

So when a PD says, “explain to me how I can be confident that you will be successful here wheb you were not at your last place”, what will you say?

Because, from my past experience, I now know what is the responsibility of a resident, being aware of what could potentially go wrong from day 1, each second I try to think of avoiding a mistake to happen. In my past program, coming from a foreign country, as a fresh graduate, not having an experience of working anywhere, I was being naive of the role of a resident and it was hard for me to transition from a student role to resident role. And I am honest that by the time I realized my role, my impression in the program changed and I can't help it. Now having been a resident in another program, being in the shoes of an intern, I now know what are the challenges and what has to be done to correct them and if I work hard from day 1, I can 100% confidently say that I can be successful in this program. Not only do I look after myself, but I can also help my fellow interns too being aware of the challenges an intern can potentially face.


This is just an idea which I just thought of now. I will polish it and build on it.

 

[deleted839398]

So when a PD says, “explain to me how I can be confident that you will be successful here wheb you were not at your last place”, what will you say?

Thank you, sb247, in between all the personalized comments, you seem to be genuinely trying to help me. I really appreciate it.

 

[deleted839398]

I really want the kind people out there to please don't misunderstand me. I do see some sincere effort from people like Crayola, burnted out, geripalgal and sbh. I am not denying that. Whatever you say positively will help me. But at the same time, it is my responsibility to revert back the negativity. I don't want any failed intern/IMG to come here and think that they are not good enough.

 

[deleted839398]

You are right what you said about the patient load. But, this is not the sole reason for what happened. I already said multiple times I don't want to talk about what happened in my program and what should have I/they done. All I can say is with right kind of support and inclusion, I can succeed and I know it. And I don't need advice in that regard. People are just trying to draw clues from what I said to torture me. I am already tortured people, cant you see. You are doing no good. I don't need your so-called realistic advice, people. What's reality for you should not have to be reality for others.

@Crayola - This post is not directed towards your comment. Some people in the previous comments, mentioned about patient load being less and all. I am telling them not to draw clues regarding the reasons for my termination.

 

[deleted480308]

I really want the kind people out there to please don't misunderstand me. I do see some sincere effort from people like Crayola, burnted out, geripalgal and sbh. I am not denying that. Whatever you say positively will help me. But at the same time, it is my responsibility to revert back the negativity. I don't want any failed intern/IMG to come here and think that they are not good enough.

Semantics matter here so please be careful to seperate the “and I think I can improve” from the “I am objectively ‘good enough’”. Because 1 isn’t necessarily accurate anymore

A fire intern or a fired anyone for that matter was determined to be not good enough for a program. A PD thought an empty space in their schedule and funding was preferable to keeping you on. That’s a big deal. A really big deal. It may be that you have the capability of rebounding but part of that rebound will be honestly and brutally addressing why you were literally not good enough before. Speaking Not in your value as a human but to your value as a physician in training....that will be painful but new PDs will want to know you have done that

 

[deleted839398]

Semantics matter here so please be careful to seperate the “and I think I can improve” from the “I am objectively ‘good enough’”. Because 1 isn’t necessarily accurate anymore

A fire intern or a fired anyone for that matter was determined to be not good enough for a program. A PD thought an empty space in their schedule and funding was preferable to keeping you on. That’s a big deal. A really big deal. It may be that you have the capability of rebounding but part of that rebound will be honestly and brutally addressing why you were literally not good enough before. Speaking Not in your value as a human but to your value as a physician in training....that will be painful but new PDs will want to know you have done that

I will be honest, at least I will portray to be honest, although I have so much against my program, I act like I learned a lot from my program. Even with my PD, I never show my anguish, I always act like I learned a lot from the program and moving on this experience is only going to help me in my consecutive programs. In my program, they hired another new resident directly into 2nd year in my place. Each year that is a routine happening. I don't know how they do it. Sometimes, they just hire fewer categoricals in first year and fill some spots with prelims in place of categoricals and they fill these prelim spots with new 2nd years in 2nd yr.

 

[jupiterianvibe]

Please do not do path.

Your IMG status and former termination will confine you to **** programs that will use you for scut. You will learn nothing. Nobody will trust your training.

You won't find a job after because the market it oversaturated with IMGs who went into path.

Frankly I'm tired of pathology being used as a back-up for failing imgs who wanted x but were not qualified enough to get it. Or who just want the relative increase in income that being an American doctor ebsures. Desperation or greed. No thanks. Please stay away.

 

[rokshana]

Who are you to tell me how much time I need to rehabilitate? Are you not acting entitled here? I will say drinking is bad, I don't understand why people drink. How do you feel? Doesn't it hurt your feelings. I think you should have set very strict goals to that obese lady and she gave up on you. You are unfit to be a doctor. Am I doing a good job here? Does it help you?

I saw this in my work environment too. Seniors who are moody, unnecessarily come and torture us. I don't know I am always the soft target for them.

What the hell are you even trying to say here?
It’s always the same in theses threads where a fired resident comes on here to “get advice” when in reality they want a cheerleading team and then get all defensive about it wasn’t their fault they got fired and then they start lashing out at the people that post in response to them...dude I can have any opinion I want and post it here... if you get all twisted about it , that’s your problem.
But show this attitude irl and you will need to use your parents money to find a job in India.

 

[rokshana]

What's reality for you should not have to be reality for others.

What? Like fake news?

Reality is reality...those with an alternative reality are usually in the psych ward.

Like burned-out, I’m done...you aren’t willing or interested in learning how to fix things and just want someone to tell you it will be alright.

We do t have to ask what happened at your old program...it’s abundantly clear...and if you do somehow get a residency spot...then you really should buy that lottery tix...because you would be the luckiest sob out there.

‍♀️ Smh

 

[deleted839398]

Please do not do path.

Your IMG status and former termination will confine you to **** programs that will use you for scut. You will learn nothing. Nobody will trust your training.

You won't find a job after because the market it oversaturated with IMGs who went into path.

Frankly I'm tired of pathology being used as a back-up for failing imgs who wanted x but were not qualified enough to get it. Or who just want the relative increase in income that being an American doctor ebsures. Desperation or greed. No thanks. Please stay away.

You don't have any right to tell me what I should do and what I should not. Are you a Nobel prize winner in the science field? What do you think gave you the right? If pathology is also filled with abusers like you, I will definitely stay away. OMG I am starting to worry now to think about any specialty.

 

[Burnted_out]

You don't have any right to tell me what I should do and what I should not. Are you a Nobel prize winner in the science field? What do you think gave you the right? If pathology is also filled with abusers like you, I will definitely stay away. OMG I am starting to worry now to think about any specialty.

Dude I have a high tolerance for thinking people should have a second chance but you have worn me out. Knowing what many of us go through and the opportunity you’ve had, and the many people who do t get spots with better qualifications than you makes me sad and I have nothing else to say. You could have used our advice from numerous people who have made it to the other side and have wisdom and tried your best. Instead you will accuse people of racism, being bad Doctors based on nothing. Sure no one of us Nobel prizes, and I’m certain most of us are good caring people who can provide wisdom and advice based on our experiences.

I’m sure we all feel for you for getting fired, but none of us are to blame and we have tried to help you. None of us can predict the future but there are things you can do that we have tried to help you see that can be beneficial can doing other things that will likely seal your fate horribly.

 

[GoSpursGo]

You don't have any right to tell me what I should do and what I should not. Are you a Nobel prize winner in the science field? What do you think gave you the right? If pathology is also filled with abusers like you, I will definitely stay away. OMG I am starting to worry now to think about any specialty.

Dude, if your threshold for listening for criticism is that someone needs to have a Nobel prize, then why did you even come here?

Not sure what else to say that hasn't been said a million times. Almost everyone in this thread has significantly more experience than you do, and yet you still choose think that literally everyone is just bashing you because you are an IMG, rather than that they are pointing out a fundamental attitude and perception problem which led to your termination and appears to still be present based on your responses in this thread. Just because you have a higher step score than most of us does not mean you know what it takes to actually succeed in residency, as evidenced by your prior experience. If you are so certain that you are right and everyone else is wrong, then you do you and best of luck.

 

[jupiterianvibe]

You don't have any right to tell me what I should do and what I should not. Are you a Nobel prize winner in the science field? What do you think gave you the right? If pathology is also filled with abusers like you, I will definitely stay away. OMG I am starting to worry now to think about any specialty.

Um. ok.

Pathology is filled with abusers like me.

I hope I inspired you to not apply to pathology.

In a way, I am doing both of us a favor by giving you this advice.

 

[deleted839398]

I am not reading all the posts. I don't have time for it. Please put a heading 'Further steps to be taken to increase the chance of matching' in all caps if you really feel for my situation and wanted to help me.