Terrible mistake, will get an institutional action after acceptance

[meeninit]

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Which med school did you get into?

I didn't lol... I'm a pharmacy student who was considering to do medicine after graduation before I effed up big time.

 

[Lawpy]

Just a heads up, new sticky that will be useful on SDN!

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/anonymity-and-bedside-manners.1176729/

 

[Goro]

Ahh, someone who gets it!

At my school we have 3-4 interviewers, one of whom is a med student.

We vote on a 1-10 scale and the avg'd scores are reported to the Adcom.

The Adcom meets every 3 weeks or so, and usually 10-15 members show up. These include Faculty, deans and students. Then the arm wrestling starts when there are discordant scores between interviewers.

My students are the harshest on interviewees. They, after all, look at the candidates as future peers. As meeninit has noted, Adcom memebrs ranges from hardasses to sweethearts. When I see Dr TN, a known sweetheart, give a poor score, I know something is really wrong with that candidate. Dr SL, a hardass, likes to reject people because they haven't taken her favorite subject as a UG student. This subject is not a pre-req at our school, so we have to always rescue candidates from the votes of Dr SL.

The Dean has his own priorities and sometimes overrules the Adcom, mainly because he likes high MCAT scores.

Personally I believe Goro represents a balancing force on an Adcom committee, but I'll get back to this later.

You do raise an important point: first-impressions do appear to be a large component of the final decision. And in my eyes that's a huge flaw. Without even knowing anything about the OP, almost every SDN'er and her brother jumped on the "you dun screwed up" bandwagon and made an immediate assessment of his character. Automatic gut feelings and stereotypes are an integral component of being human and that's why things like microaggressions are endemic.

Now back to my initial point, Goro isn't the only person sitting on an Adcom. There are multiple other types of people with different beliefs. I'm in pharmacy school and have seen the same in my school. Interviewers range from academic advisors to the most strict and stuck-up biochemistry professor.
If every single Adcom member believed in second chances then checking the IA box would no longer serve its purpose. Goro's colleagues likely range from the the most strict arse to the holistic type, and the sum of the beliefs and opinions coming out of the Adcom is what determines the final judgement.

And I don't know if you recognize the username but I'm that dude that got an IA for forging a parking pass. @Goro would probably never give me a second look. And I'm fine with that. Even Goro himself takes into account his colleagues that believe in redemption and gives advice to people with IAs with that in mind.

 

[Vermilion_Parish]

I believe this is something that would be very obvious in an interview. @Goro said they interview almost everyone with any IA barring murder and rape. There is no "reason for everything" when it comes to this. Someone who worked hard to overcome adversity when they truly were in a bad position in life (dealing drugs, stealing food to feed family, etc.) is very different than someone who sexually assaulted another person. But that person's explanation is on their application, and if extended an interview they have the opportunity to explain and demonstrate that since then their life has been "exemplary." But going straight form street crime into medical school makes no sense. It is not the job of admissions deans to give someone a better life, as cold as that sounds. You can absolutely make a difference in the lives of those from rough backgrounds, you can help to change the institutional processes that keep people in poverty, in crime, etc... and increase their access to services that help them achieve the same access to education that you and I have. But you don't start with a medical school acceptance. If the person is a good applicant otherwise, they would have to decide based on whether this person has shown that they have overcome whatever made them beat or murder another person- which is nearly impossible in a profession entirely based on the value of human life

My post was towards Goro specifically as an adcom member who I've seen take a particularly hardline approach to people with blemished backgrounds. Not that that may not be often warranted. But to your remarks, "getting out" so to say can often come in phases, and some can never completely shed everything. A person may be trying to improve and better themselves and their life and then their abusive, drunk mom shows up junior year at their dorm and they end up in a fist fight in the hall. This is just one example of a thousand ways a life like that can show up at your doorstep and one moment can just snowball. I also want to make it clear that I don't think it's their job to give people anything. You earn and work for what you have, but I do firmly believe different people deserve different considerations. Like I also said some peoples reasons are stupid and awful (as in some guy dealing drugs in college cause his parents wouldn't buy him a new gaming computer). Goro has laid it out in black and white and I'm wondering if that's a result of OPs particular situation or his views on this topic as a whole.

 

[Vermilion_Parish]

As mentioned above, med schools aren't charities, nor the Make-A-Wish Foundation. No one has a right to a career in Medicine.

It's not about their hopes and dreams, it's about the patients. We Faculty not only have to teach these people, we turn them loose on the US patient population. Who would you rather have treating your mom? Someone with clean hands, or the OP, who, when backed into a corner, was dishonest?

We've got plenty of other candidates who don't have such black marks on their apps. Not everyone is meant to be a doctor.

I know that no one has a right to a career in medicine, and we're all responsible for our actions. Personally, I have little to no sympathy for OP. However, we know from psychology about attribution bias, and I think context is important. Anyhow, I'm not trying to sell you on anything (not that I could even if that were my intention) just wondering if you ever made exceptions based on situation (probably put a little too much flowery nonsense in my first post because I'm an advocate for these types of people and I'd had a couple whiskeys last night). I'll defer to others opinions though. Your perspective is a necessary balancing factor to bleeding hearts.

 

[LizzyM]

I know that no one has a right to a career in medicine, and we're all responsible for our actions. Personally, I have little to no sympathy for OP. However, we know from psychology about attribution bias, and I think context is important. Anyhow, I'm not trying to sell you on anything (not that I could even if that were my intention) just wondering if you ever made exceptions based on situation (probably put a little too much flowery nonsense in my first post because I'm an advocate for these types of people and I'd had a couple whiskeys last night). I'll defer to others opinions though. Your perspective is a necessary balancing factor to bleeding hearts.

With an IA or a criminal record the question always comes down to, "Would we want someone who does such a thing in our community? Would we want one of our current students to do this?" You can leave it to your imagination what acts would get a medical student kicked out of school and which would get a reprimand but no suspension or expulsion.

 

[mock94]

First-world problems at its finest. So you're a pharmacy student crying about an IA that shut doors to your dream to be a doctor?

Perks of being a pharmacist: you begin making 6-figures at age 24-26. You get to enjoy your mid-late 20s making more than most of your peers. Medicine is an investment, you don't start pulling serious dough until you're about 30-32. In the long run, medicine is more financially sound but ages 25-30 are invaluable and you get to enjoy them with a 9-5 job pulling in good paychecks.
Have you ever heard of a walgreen's pharmacist that is "on-call"? Hah. No. Did you ever hear about how high the suicide rate is for doctors?

Lastly, you'd be in the top 5% bracket for earners in the US. What more do you need?

Oh, and you are lucky that you never got charged as a criminal. A quick google search yielded a few cases of students receiving misdemenour charges for forging a pass.

I find it disrespectful that you're a first-year pharmacy student who no longer wants to practice pharmacy. You took the seat of someone else who truly wants to be a pharmacist, which is another big red-flag on your future medical application.

Personally I believe Goro represents a balancing force on an Adcom committee, but I'll get back to this later.

You do raise an important point: first-impressions do appear to be a large component of the final decision. And in my eyes that's a huge flaw. Without even knowing anything about the OP, almost every SDN'er and her brother jumped on the "you dun screwed up" bandwagon and made an immediate assessment of his character. Automatic gut feelings and stereotypes are an integral component of being human and that's why things like microaggressions are endemic.

Now back to my initial point, Goro isn't the only person sitting on an Adcom. There are multiple other types of people with different beliefs. I'm in pharmacy school and have seen the same in my school. Interviewers range from academic advisors to the most strict and stuck-up biochemistry professor.
If every single Adcom member believed in second chances then checking the IA box would no longer serve its purpose. Goro's colleagues likely range from the the most strict arse to the holistic type, and the sum of the beliefs and opinions coming out of the Adcom is what determines the final judgement.

And I don't know if you recognize the username but I'm that dude that got an IA for forging a parking pass. @Goro would probably never give me a second look. And I'm fine with that. Even Goro himself takes into account his colleagues that believe in redemption and gives advice to people with IAs with that in mind.

 

[meeninit]

First-world problems at its finest. So you're a pharmacy student crying about an IA that shut doors to your dream to be a doctor?

Perks of being a pharmacist: you begin making 6-figures at age 24-26. You get to enjoy your mid-late 20s making more than most of your peers. Medicine is an investment, you don't start pulling serious dough until you're about 30-32. In the long run, medicine is more financially sound but ages 25-30 are invaluable and you get to enjoy them with a 9-5 job pulling in good paychecks.
Have you ever heard of a walgreen's pharmacist that is "on-call"? Hah. No. Did you ever hear about how high the suicide rate is for doctors?

Lastly, you'd be in the top 5% bracket for earners in the US. What more do you need?

Oh, and you are lucky that you never got charged as a criminal. A quick google search yielded a few cases of students receiving misdemenour charges for forging a pass.

I find it disrespectful that you're a first-year pharmacy student who no longer wants to practice pharmacy. You took the seat of someone else who truly wants to be a pharmacist, which is another big red-flag on your future medical application.

Thanks for your point of view. Your criticism is valid if you believe that I want to be a doctor just for the money.
But in reality I grew up in an environment without real guidance from my anyone. Hence, my poor judgement in forging the pass. I used to be a Muslim and left the religion a few years ago and the feeling of loneliness and ostracization resulting from that have led me to the the path of changing my career trajectory. Psychiatry is my calling. I would love to devote my time helping lost souls everywhere who share this in common.
My parents don't talk about mental illnesses because "that's only what weak Americans say". And there are plenty who come from the same background.
I believe that forging the pass represents the past of mine that I am ashamed of, stemming from the hypocrisy of pious parents who also cut corners to save a pence here and there.

In the years to come I will take steps to make myself a better person and whether or not my dreams to become a doctor reifies is not of my concern. I am truly ashamed of all of the events that led me to do what I did.

 

[mock94]

Wow.. I didn't expect a reply like that.

Just some criticism: I believe it would be better to own up a little more to actions than to blame it on your upbringing. True, your parents' behavior and lack of guidance probably led you to do what you did but that is not an acceptable excuse for an adult in the POV of the adcoms...
But I have faith that one day you'll receive an admission from someone that is touched by your story.

Best of luck.

Thanks for your point of view. Your criticism is valid if you believe that I want to be a doctor just for the money.
But in reality I grew up in an environment without real guidance from my anyone. Hence, my poor judgement in forging the pass. I used to be a Muslim and left the religion a few years ago and the feeling of loneliness and ostracization resulting from that have led me to the the path of changing my career trajectory. Psychiatry is my calling. I would love to devote my time helping lost souls everywhere who share this in common.
My parents don't talk about mental illnesses because "that's only what weak Americans say". And there are plenty who come from the same background.
I believe that forging the pass represents the past of mine that I am ashamed of, stemming from the hypocrisy of pious parents who also cut corners to save a pence here and there.

In the years to come I will take steps to make myself a better person and whether or not my dreams to become a doctor reifies is not of my concern. I am truly ashamed of all of the events that led me to do what I did.

 

[DokterMom]

You've never felt compassion for any of the applicants that have stood before you chasing a dream and begging for a better life? There's reason for everything, and some of them are downright awful and stupid. However, some people haven't had a choice. Some people played the hand they were dealt. They prostituted themselves because they didn't have anything else to sell. The assaulted someone because they'd spent their whole life being beaten. They killed someone because there was no other way in the moment to make sure they would made it to the next. Now, I know that isn't the norm. I know the people who make it to your chopping block, by and large, have rarely faced that sort of adversity. Still, those people are real. They are living and breathing in the world around you. They are the people who fill ERs and CPS caseloads. While it is few in many contexts, some make it this far, and what about them? Where do they fit in? Do you believe they fit in nowhere within this profession? Or are there exceptions for what this field may view as the extraordinary, but is really the ordinary in the slums? Is there only tolerance for those who weren't caught?

My post was towards Goro specifically as an adcom member who I've seen take a particularly hardline approach to people with blemished backgrounds. Not that that may not be often warranted. But to your remarks, "getting out" so to say can often come in phases, and some can never completely shed everything. A person may be trying to improve and better themselves and their life and then their abusive, drunk mom shows up junior year at their dorm and they end up in a fist fight in the hall. This is just one example of a thousand ways a life like that can show up at your doorstep and one moment can just snowball. I also want to make it clear that I don't think it's their job to give people anything. You earn and work for what you have, but I do firmly believe different people deserve different considerations. Like I also said some peoples reasons are stupid and awful (as in some guy dealing drugs in college cause his parents wouldn't buy him a new gaming computer). Goro has laid it out in black and white and I'm wondering if that's a result of OPs particular situation or his views on this topic as a whole.

Hard luck stories of the magnitude you describe are not common, because most of the time, such circumstances snuff out academic achievement much too early for the young person to even consider applying to medical school. But where an applicant has overcome the type of background you describe and managed to accumulate academic credentials that are acceptable for medical school admission -- I think that applicant will find a very forgiving reception.

 

[235009]

For your edification, I have a PhD in one of the Basic Science disciplines, and have been teaching med students for > 15 years. And still publishing too.

With over 10 posts per day on SDN for the last 5.5 years how do you have time to publish anything? Also all "publishing" isn't created equal...

My students are the harshest on interviewees.

[...]

The Dean has his own priorities and sometimes overrules the Adcom, mainly because he likes high MCAT scores.

Not surprising that the med students are the most idealistic about the process. By being overly picky and thinking only the cream of the crop get into their school (which is obviously not true) they're protecting their own egos.

Glad to see you're admitting that the dean overrules these unrealistic expectations because the priority is to inflate admission statistics (for the sake of marketing) even if it means overlooking pretty egregious IAs

I'm glad we finally got to the truth out of you in this thread...took a little while though

 

[operaman]

Question for our adcom and any legally trained friends:

Does a medical school incur any sort of legal liability when admitting students with terribly blemished backgrounds? This doesn't really apply to the OP, but some of the blemishes Goro mentions he's seen are pretty severe; if someone were admitted despite their past transgression and then commit a similar act that directly or indirectly harms a patient, is there a legal argument that the school was negligent in admitting them? Has anyone ever successfully litigated such a claim before?

Sorry if that's a dumb question; my legal education consists of Matlock and Law and Order reruns.

As to the OP, the key point I can't move beyond is the timing of the incident as it comes ~6 months before he would start M1. Awfully hard to argue that he's a significantly changed individual after such a short time. Also, coming as it does at the end of UG, it calls into question what is likely a very strong academic record.

 

[Lawpy]

With over 10 posts per day on SDN for the last 5.5 years how do you have time to publish anything? Also all "publishing" isn't created equal...



Not surprising that the med students are the most idealistic about the process. By being overly picky and thinking only the cream of the crop get into their school (which is obviously not true) they're protecting their own egos.

Glad to see you're admitting that the dean overrules these unrealistic expectations because the priority is to inflate admission statistics (for the sake of marketing) even if it means overlooking pretty egregious IAs

I'm glad we finally got to the truth out of you in this thread...took a little while though

A little surprised that you have a personal grudge against Goro.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

With over 10 posts per day on SDN for the last 5.5 years how do you have time to publish anything? Also all "publishing" isn't created equal...



Not surprising that the med students are the most idealistic about the process. By being overly picky and thinking only the cream of the crop get into their school (which is obviously not true) they're protecting their own egos.

Glad to see you're admitting that the dean overrules these unrealistic expectations because the priority is to inflate admission statistics (for the sake of marketing) even if it means overlooking pretty egregious IAs

I'm glad we finally got to the truth out of you in this thread...took a little while though

those posts are very helpful/reassuring to those of us going through the app cycle. If they annoy you, maybe direct your attention elsewhere

 

[Chromium Surfer]

With over 10 posts per day on SDN for the last 5.5 years how do you have time to publish anything? Also all "publishing" isn't created equal...



Not surprising that the med students are the most idealistic about the process. By being overly picky and thinking only the cream of the crop get into their school (which is obviously not true) they're protecting their own egos.

Glad to see you're admitting that the dean overrules these unrealistic expectations because the priority is to inflate admission statistics (for the sake of marketing) even if it means overlooking pretty egregious IAs

I'm glad we finally got to the truth out of you in this thread...took a little while though

If you do not like Goro so much why do you consistently attack his posts that are not even directed towards you? I've seen you do this in multiple threads and I am a fairly new member. Seems like you would be happiest by leaving him alone

I for one appreciate all the sound advice Goro has given me in my short time here on SDN!!

 

[wagonwheel23]

I have to imagine that AdCom members put their ass on the line when they push for, and ultimately help accept, a student with a blemished record.

I have been heavily involved in the hiring processes at my current and last company. When you stick up for a candidate that other hiring managers or the CEO aren't extremely keen on, you are taking a big risk. If that candidate receives and accepts the job offer and then quits/is fired 3 months in, guess what? You look terrible, have lost professional credibility, and are responsible for wasting extremely valuable company time and resources. Oh, and let's not forget about the hidden cost of denying a more qualified candidate a job that they would have loved and excelled in.

Would you want to be the AdCom member that advocated for a student that was kicked out for cheating? No. Definitely not. The risk isn't worth it when there are an abundance of qualified candidates.

 

[Goro]

Here's someone for whom I'd go to bat for. This is what I call a compelling story, and I think meets my criteria of redemption.

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...rds-and-medical-school.1176550/#post-17270951

 

[Demosthenes1]

Not condoning or disagreeing with anything written so far, but in fairness, especially given the competitive nature of gaining admission to med school, do any of us believe that there are no students in med school and well-respected practicing physicians who never cheated in college or med school? No med students who as college students ever cheated while feeling the pressure that a failing grade in a key class would forever doom their chances? I would also guess that there is huge variability in the ability to cheat at various colleges, like small LACs with honor codes to massive state universities with hundreds of students in a class. I'm going to venture a guess that cheating is not a rare event.

Think of the Harvard Cheating Scandal a few years back where there were 100+ students caught.
Its not a stretch to think cheating is common.

 

[Lost in Translation]

Why was OP banned?

 

[IlDestriero]

Ahh, someone who gets it!

At my school we have 3-4 interviewers, one of whom is a med student.

We vote on a 1-10 scale and the avg'd scores are reported to the Adcom.

The Adcom meets every 3 weeks or so, and usually 10-15 members show up. These include Faculty, deans and students. Then the arm wrestling starts when there are discordant scores between interviewers.

My students are the harshest on interviewees. They, after all, look at the candidates as future peers. As meeninit has noted, Adcom memebrs ranges from hardasses to sweethearts. When I see Dr TN, a known sweetheart, give a poor score, I know something is really wrong with that candidate. Dr SL, a hardass, likes to reject people because they haven't taken her favorite subject as a UG student. This subject is not a pre-req at our school, so we have to always rescue candidates from the votes of Dr SL.

The Dean has his own priorities and sometimes overrules the Adcom, mainly because he likes high MCAT scores.

Your Dean sounds more like a Dunce BTW. Wasting the time and money of the students and ADCOM by not screening for fatal flaws prior to interviews, and overruling the ADCOM because someone payed for some prep classes and devoted a couple months to taking a test.
For those that believe in forgiveness, second chances, etc. when things are extremely competitive and there are a dozen or more applicants for every position, one flaw is all it takes. At the fellowship level the only thing that will save you is a monster letter of recommendation from a senior known faculty member. And that's a bit of a unicorn.

 

[username456789]

If you do not like Goro so much why do you consistently attack his posts that are not even directed towards you?

How/why is this a question? It's like saying "if you like ice cream so much, then why do you keep eating it?"

 

[darknecrosforte]

Why was OP banned?

Clearly, the younglings on here are terrible at anonymity and SDN might have done OP a favor by trying to get him/her under the radar so that if the OP decides to appeal in some way, this thread won't bite them in the bee-hind.

 

[Lawpy]

Down goes the OP!

 

[Demosthenes1]

Agree, but keep in mind we aren't talking about an ethical decision that one deliberates about for weeks and then makes a decision. These are errors that are made in the heat of the moment, perhaps within seconds, perhaps with several days of little sleep, distorted thinking because of thinking maybe I will lose my acceptance if I fail this class, feeling the walls closing in and being in a state of panic. Now, in response, I'm sure someone is going to say we don't want a person being a physician since physicians will have to function and make the right decisions under extreme pressure, and I get that, but still....mistakes happen. Can we truly judge someone's moral character based on one instance of something? Maybe the OP has made a 100 other excellent moral decisions. Physicians are people too....people who cheat on spouses, push at the limits on taxes, drink too much, use illicit substances, go ahead and perform surgeries when they know they are in a suboptimal mental state, etc, etc, etc. Physicians (and pre-meds) aren't immune to all of the calamities that can happen to the majority of people. Does coming on SDN with the problem and seeking advice (instead of just trying to sweep it under the rug) tell us anything? Is the answer to just Scarlet Letter the kid?

Yes.
I'd imagine there's probably some correlation between students who cheat in undergrad and med school, and physicians who cut corners while acting as doctors.
Hester and Dimmesdale should both wear the Scarlett Letter, and neither should be professionals giving relationship advice.

 

[Goro]

Two different Deans.

The Admissions dean's policy we don't condone.

The Big Cheese himself, well, it's his school. But he doesn't overrule the Adcom to let in a cheater with a high MCAT; it's more common that it's someone with poor interview skills, and for whom the Adcom was divided on, or not as vociferous as we should have been.

Your Dean sounds more like a Dunce BTW. Wasting the time and money of the students and ADCOM by not screening for fatal flaws prior to interviews, and overruling the ADCOM because someone payed for some prep classes and devoted a couple months to taking a test.
For those that believe in forgiveness, second chances, etc. when things are extremely competitive and there are a dozen or more applicants for every position, one flaw is all it takes. At the fellowship level the only thing that will save you is a monster letter of recommendation from a senior known faculty member. And that's a bit of a unicorn.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Just a heads up, new sticky that will be useful on SDN!

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/anonymity-and-bedside-manners.1176729/

This thread has run its course.

As an aside, please take the time to read and give feedback on this new sticky.