Terrible mistake, will get an institutional action after acceptance

[Lawpy]

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I have interviewed (because we don't pre-screen, alas) and rejected people have done:

Assault
Having someone else take an exam for the candidate
Stealing an exam from a professor
Drug dealing
Multiple DUIs
Getting expelled for cheating
Shoplifting
Cheating on an exam
Cheating on an assignment
Forgery
Theft
Sexual harassment
Failing out of medical school (for any reason)

... um, why did your school even give them an interview invite in the first place? I thought prescreening refers to sending out the secondaries, but even then, the adcoms can readily reject them and not waste money, time and resources interviewing them.

 

[Vandelay Industries]

It is outside the realm of possibility because the problem in DKA is hypokalemia. N00b

Haha touché.

I have no idea why I did that...oh wait...yes I do. Good ol' decreasing fund of medical knowledge during 4th year. I haven't been on the wards since August. July 1st should be interesting...

 

[Ismet]

Seeing people have to come to grips with the consequences of their decisions is something that's happened a lot in my young career. Being calloused about it is a crappy way to cope with the sh-ttiness of it all.

I'm not sure if it was my post that came off as calloused, but it wasn't meant that way. There have been a lot of hypothetical scenarios thrown around in this thread and confusion over whether or not he participated in the email.

I do have sympathy for the kid, a couple lapses in judgment just drastically altered his career trajectory. Can't imagine what it's like to be in those shoes.

 

[WingedOx]

I'm not sure if it was my post that came off as calloused, but it wasn't meant that way. There have been a lot of hypothetical scenarios thrown around in this thread and confusion over whether or not he participated in the email.

I do have sympathy for the kid, a couple lapses in judgment just drastically altered his career trajectory. Can't imagine what it's like to be in those shoes.

no, not at all actually. Just making a general reference.

Yeah, assuming the kid isn't making up a good story, I can see how ****ty a situation this is.

 

[Goro]

Pre-screening at our school means "are they complete? Do they have the minimum stats? Then send 'em a secondary".

Much to our chagrin, our wily old Admissions dean has a very different mandate than the faculty and deans on the Adcom, who actually have to teach these people.

... um, why did your school even give them an interview invite in the first place? I thought prescreening refers to sending out the secondaries, but even then, the adcoms can readily reject them and not waste money, time and resources interviewing them.

 

[Lawpy]

Pre-screening at our school means "are they complete? Do they have the minimum stats? Then send 'em a secondary".

Much to our chagrin, our wily old Admissions dean has a very different mandate than the faculty and deans on the Adcom, who actually have to teach these people.

Right but why did the adcoms in your school give these applicants with disastrous IAs an interview invite? It's really easy to simply look at the IA severity before tossing the app into the rejection pile. And idk what redemption exists for these applicants

 

[Goro]

Unless they murderers or rapists, they'll get an invite.
Our reaction when they show up in the interview room is:

Right but why did the adcoms in your school give these applicants with disastrous IAs an interview invite? It's really easy to simply look at the IA severity before tossing the app into the rejection pile. And idk what redemption exists for these applicants

 

[ZedsDed]

Unless they murderers or rapists, they'll get an invite.
Our reaction when they show up in the interview room is:

No offense, but what a waste of time and money for all parties involved!

 

[Lawpy]

Unless they murderers or rapists, they'll get an invite.
Our reaction when they show up in the interview room is:

..... well i rather not probe into your school admissions policy so i'll leave it at that. I'm just... dumbfounded

 

[ciestar]

No offense, but what a waste of time and money for all parties involved!

All about the money!

 

[DrZeke]

Unless they murderers or rapists, they'll get an invite.
Our reaction when they show up in the interview room is:

Haha that's amazing

 

[Goro]

Yup. I'm not making the news, I'm just reporting it.

No offense, but what a waste of time and money for all parties involved!

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

interviewee reaction: -> ->

Our reaction when they show up in the interview room is:

 

[deleted647690]

... um, why did your school even give them an interview invite in the first place? I thought prescreening refers to sending out the secondaries, but even then, the adcoms can readily reject them and not waste money, time and resources interviewing them.

Why is it a waste of money and resources when some of these applicants could have reasons to show that they've matured and would be fine in medical school and as doctors? Didn't Goro say that a few of his adcom fellows have admitted such applicants? Referring to things like shoplifting, forgery, and theft.

 

[Psai]

It is outside the realm of possibility because the problem in DKA is hypokalemia. N00b

You can see high serum potassium despite low total body potassium due to cellular redistribution from low insulin activity and water shift from the hyperglycemia

 

[DrZeke]

You can see high serum potassium despite low total body potassium due to cellular redistribution from low insulin activity and water shift from the hyperglycemia

So happy I'm not an internist

 

[DOFOSHO]

For Colorado/Washington med schools / applicants / undergraduate schools: Is underage pot possession/usage worse than underage alcohol possession/usage?

it depends on who interviews you. most docs drink, many docs smoke trees.

 

[musicalfeet]

Why did you not report this? That's a serious felony, and one that has the potential to sorta ruin the girl psychologically later on? Not reporting a crime like that when someone knows about it often carries legal consequences too!

If I hear it had something to do with not wanting to jeopardize this clown's "promising career" I might explode!

Rape and cheating aren't mistakes. They are intentional decisions.

And for real, the first one should be in jail.

I totally agree that he should be in jail btw, but in my defense:

1. I was 15 when I first knew anything was even going on. I think my friend was so ashamed she said that they "just kissed", but he often showered her with a ton of gifts and calls by the way while we were in school. AND at 15, I had no idea how serious this action was (nor did I know it technically counted as statutory rape.....)
2. I didn't know until I was in COLLEGE, talking to her ex-boyfriend (whom she was unfaithful to with said med student at the time) that I found out that it was much more than "just a kiss"
3. I didn't get ACTUAL confirmation until AFTER college (so this was like...7 years later) that things had actually gone so far. Also, she really doesn't want to talk about it with me, so she pretty much said " yeah " and dropped the subject. I felt it was not my place to push further. And the actual confirmation came from the 26 year old guy...who was now in his 30's and attempting to get a cardiology fellowship. (and for bonus squicks, he somehow got his hands on my contact info through HER cellphone, and waited 3 years until I was 18 to begin talking to me "to avoid the same mistake with your friend" <-- in his words)

With so much time passing since said incident, I don't think there's anything any of us can do...it would all just become a "he said" "she said", and she would view it as a huge personal betrayal if I put her on the spot like that.

 

[Psai]

And the actual confirmation came from the 26 year old guy...who was now in his 30's and attempting to get a cardiology fellowship. (and for bonus squicks, he somehow got his hands on my contact info through HER cellphone, and waited 3 years until I was 18 to begin talking to me "to avoid the same mistake with your friend" <-- in his words)

wtf...that's messed up

 

[Lannister]

(and for bonus squicks, he somehow got his hands on my contact info through HER cellphone, and waited 3 years until I was 18 to begin talking to me "to avoid the same mistake with your friend" <-- in his words)

As if that whole story wasn't disturbing enough already...that is insanely creepy. I guess we can just be thankful he didn't pursue pediatrics.

 

[deleted480308]

I totally agree that he should be in jail btw, but in my defense:

1. I was 15 when I first knew anything was even going on. I think my friend was so ashamed she said that they "just kissed", but he often showered her with a ton of gifts and calls by the way while we were in school. AND at 15, I had no idea how serious this action was (nor did I know it technically counted as statutory rape.....)
2. I didn't know until I was in COLLEGE, talking to her ex-boyfriend (whom she was unfaithful to with said med student at the time) that I found out that it was much more than "just a kiss"
3. I didn't get ACTUAL confirmation until AFTER college (so this was like...7 years later) that things had actually gone so far. Also, she really doesn't want to talk about it with me, so she pretty much said " yeah " and dropped the subject. I felt it was not my place to push further. And the actual confirmation came from the 26 year old guy...who was now in his 30's and attempting to get a cardiology fellowship. (and for bonus squicks, he somehow got his hands on my contact info through HER cellphone, and waited 3 years until I was 18 to begin talking to me "to avoid the same mistake with your friend" <-- in his words)

With so much time passing since said incident, I don't think there's anything any of us can do...it would all just become a "he said" "she said", and she would view it as a huge personal betrayal if I put her on the spot like that.

I wasn't questioning your lack of reporting it as a teenager, I'm calling out your post that wraps up a story about a rapist with "people make mistakes"

 

[WingedOx]

it depends on who interviews you. most docs drink, many docs smoke trees.

Though most docs who do/have smoked managed to not put themselves in situations where they get/got caught.

 

[whatever5]

Acceptees are usually vetted by Admissions deans prior to matriculation.

Really? I thought if there were indications of dishonesty, the candidate just wouldn't be interviewed. What sort of things is the Admissions Dean looking for?

 

[Glazedonutlove]

Really? I thought if there were indications of dishonesty, the candidate just wouldn't be interviewed. What sort of things is the Admissions Dean looking for?

I think he means post interview/acceptance

 

[whatever5]

I think he means post interview/acceptance

That makes way more sense. Thanks!

 

[Goro]

This is the case for MD schools. Can't speak for other DO schools, only my own.

I thought if there were indications of dishonesty, the candidate just wouldn't be interviewed.

 

[maydaymalone]

@Goro Is your school a DO or MD institution? I was just curious. I love all your advice by the way.

 

[lalex]

@Goro Is your school a DO or MD institution? I was just curious. I love all your advice by the way.

DO.

 

[Lawpy]

Why is it a waste of money and resources when some of these applicants could have reasons to show that they've matured and would be fine in medical school and as doctors? Didn't Goro say that a few of his adcom fellows have admitted such applicants? Referring to things like shoplifting, forgery, and theft.

Because there are many more applicants who are just as good, if not better, without such IAs. Something more than just redemption is making people with severe IAs get IIs.

 

[235009]

Unless they murderers or rapists, they'll get an invite.
Our reaction when they show up in the interview room is:

this school sounds really competitive. setting a really high bar.

You can see high serum potassium despite low total body potassium due to cellular redistribution from low insulin activity and water shift from the hyperglycemia

Not sure what year in med school you're in but just a word to the wise for real life: don't argue with the resident 😉
If you're presenting a DKA patient one would assume they're on insulin drip. Insulin pushes K into the cell. Very important to keep an eye out for iatrogenic hypokalemia when treating DKA. Your attempt at an explanation (high serum but low total body potassium) while generally can be true depending on the patient's acid/base status makes no sense in the context of DKA.

 

[Lawpy]

this school sounds really competitive. setting a really high bar.



Not sure what year in med school you're in but just a word to the wise for real life: don't argue with the resident 😉
If you're presenting a DKA patient one would assume they're on insulin drip. Insulin pushes K into the cell. Very important to keep an eye out for iatrogenic hypokalemia when treating DKA. Your attempt at an explanation (high serum but low total body potassium) while generally can be true depending on the patient's acid/base status makes no sense in the context of DKA.

I learned something new today!

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

this school sounds really competitive. setting a really high bar.



Not sure what year in med school you're in but just a word to the wise for real life: don't argue with the resident 😉
If you're presenting a DKA patient one would assume they're on insulin drip. Insulin pushes K into the cell. Very important to keep an eye out for iatrogenic hypokalemia when treating DKA. Your attempt at an explanation (high serum but low total body potassium) while generally can be true depending on the patient's acid/base status makes no sense in the context of DKA.

Are you an IM doc?

 

[deleted647690]

Because there are many more applicants who are just as good, if not better, without such IAs. Something more than just redemption is making people with severe IAs get IIs.

What is that "something more"? It can't be high stats, because I'm sure for every applicant with an IA, you can find a mirror applicant with the same stats and no IA

 

[235009]

Are you an IM doc?

IM resident. For 6 more months.

 

[Lawpy]

What is that "something more"? It can't be high stats, because I'm sure for every applicant with an IA, you can find a mirror applicant with the same stats and no IA

I don't know. mimelim suggested it (in very rare cases) could be really good LORs that could've impressed the Dean/adcoms. But Goro said his school interviews people with IAs including sexual assault, felony and cheating for some reason and then promptly rejects said applicants... which warrants the question, why even interview them in the first place?

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

IM resident. For 6 more months.

Fellowship?

 

[Goro]

*sigh* Asked and answered already, Lawper.

I believe that long periods of exemplary behavior does appeal to some Adcom members. So I red flagged applicant is lucky on the draw when applying many years after the transgression, and that interviewers goes to bat for the applicant, then maybe s/he will have some success.

But crimes of violence or moral turpitude aren't going to get a pass, no matter haw many years go by.

Keep in mind that severely damaged applicant are RARE, give the numbers of applicants who haven't f'd up.


[


QUOTE="Lawper, post: 17270692, member: 622365"]I don't know. mimelim suggested it (in very rare cases) could be really good LORs that could've impressed the Dean/adcoms. But Goro said his school interviews people with IAs including sexual assault, felony and cheating for some reason and then promptly rejects said applicants... which warrants the question, why even interview them in the first place?[/QUOTE]

 

[Lawpy]

*sigh* Asked and answered already, Lawper.

I believe that long periods of exemplary behavior does appeal to some Adcom members. So I red flagged applicant is lucky on the draw when applying many years after the transgression, and that interviewers goes to bat for the applicant, then maybe s/he will have some success.

But crimes of violence or moral turpitude aren't going to get a pass, no matter haw many years go by.

Keep in mind that severely damaged applicant are RARE, give the numbers of applicants who haven't f'd up.

I understand the importance and benefits of redemption, which clearly depends on the severity of IAs involves. Maybe i'm underrating it but i was simply looking in context of the competition and alternatives.

I guess just because something was made more difficult doesn't make it impossible in the end.

 

[TheoryOfEverything]

I think he means post interview/acceptance

I actually don't think that's what goro meant based on his wording.

So, I find that pretty interesting that admissions deans would thoroughly analyze every acceptees applications prior to matriculation. @Goro , is the purpose of this to try and find a reason to rescind an acceptance? Seems like a strange thing to do and poor use of time .

 

[Vermilion_Parish]

Unless they murderers or rapists, they'll get an invite.
Our reaction when they show up in the interview room is:

You've never felt compassion for any of the applicants that have stood before you chasing a dream and begging for a better life? There's reason for everything, and some of them are downright awful and stupid. However, some people haven't had a choice. Some people played the hand they were dealt. They prostituted themselves because they didn't have anything else to sell. The assaulted someone because they'd spent their whole life being beaten. They killed someone because there was no other way in the moment to make sure they would made it to the next. Now, I know that isn't the norm. I know the people who make it to your chopping block, by and large, have rarely faced that sort of adversity. Still, those people are real. They are living and breathing in the world around you. They are the people who fill ERs and CPS caseloads. While it is few in many contexts, some make it this far, and what about them? Where do they fit in? Do you believe they fit in nowhere within this profession? Or are there exceptions for what this field may view as the extraordinary, but is really the ordinary in the slums? Is there only tolerance for those who weren't caught?

 

[Meeehai]

OP just go to the interview and tell them: if you're not cheating - you're not trying, with a smug look on your face.

 

[Psai]

I actually don't think that's what goro meant based on his wording.

So, I find that pretty interesting that admissions deans would thoroughly analyze every acceptees applications prior to matriculation. @Goro , is the purpose of this to try and find a reason to rescind an acceptance? Seems like a strange thing to do and poor use of time .

Always good to check your work

 

[Pasmal]

"Haven't been on SDN in a while, let's see what's going on in pre-allo" - me some large number of minutes / 340-something posts ago.

OP, regardless of the outcome of your med school acceptance you absolutely should be doing damage control. I served on an honor committee in UG and saw cases go both ways; how students handled their cases did affect the outcome.

1. Become an expert on your school's process if you haven't already.

2. Prepare a persuasive argument for why you should not get an IA, including possible alternatives the committee might consider (failing the test, failing the course, etc). Get someone you consider a mentor to proofread. Many faculty members rotate on honor committee so if you are close with a faculty member, ask them as they may have some experience. This is 1/2 of the convincing you will need to do.

3. Do not memorize your statement. Read it aloud twice sitting down in one go. Create bullet points and then just stick to those. It needs to sound sincere and for that it needs to be organized but authentic and somewhat improvised. I'd aim for around 2-5 minutes.

4. I think the benefits outweigh the risks here: speak with the prof you burned. If you are considering this PM me, it kind of depends on how big your school is and the prof's personality... But basically if the prof really has it out for you (wants IA) it can make be more difficult for the committee to go against them unless the evidence is lacking (not exactly the case here) or they frequently report really minor stuff. Convincing this prof that you deserve a second chance - if nothing else even just a little more than the guy who took the pictures - can make an impact (this is the second 1/2).

5. Realize that none of this may work. Try your absolute hardest here... but you may end up with an IA. You may end up getting your offer rescinded. Know that good things can come from what may seem like catastrophic events. Think about what the 90-year-old you would say to yourself: "this sucks, but it's not the end of it all so pick yourself up and press on."

Own what you did during your hearing, show remorse and growth, plead for forgiveness and pray for no IA.

I don't know what you deserve. We would see no history of academic dishonesty as a plus.

I wish you the best.

 

[haaaaaaaaaaveyoumetted]

You've never felt compassion for any of the applicants that have stood before you chasing a dream and begging for a better life? There's reason for everything, and some of them are downright awful and stupid. However, some people haven't had a choice. Some people played the hand they were dealt. They prostituted themselves because they didn't have anything else to sell. The assaulted someone because they'd spent their whole life being beaten. They killed someone because there was no other way in the moment to make sure they would made it to the next. Now, I know that isn't the norm. I know the people who make it to your chopping block, by and large, have rarely faced that sort of adversity. Still, those people are real. They are living and breathing in the world around you. They are the people who fill ERs and CPS caseloads. While it is few in many contexts, some make it this far, and what about them? Where do they fit in? Do you believe they fit in nowhere within this profession? Or are there exceptions for what this field may view as the extraordinary, but is really the ordinary in the slums? Is there only tolerance for those who weren't caught?

I believe this is something that would be very obvious in an interview. @Goro said they interview almost everyone with any IA barring murder and rape. There is no "reason for everything" when it comes to this. Someone who worked hard to overcome adversity when they truly were in a bad position in life (dealing drugs, stealing food to feed family, etc.) is very different than someone who sexually assaulted another person. But that person's explanation is on their application, and if extended an interview they have the opportunity to explain and demonstrate that since then their life has been "exemplary." But going straight form street crime into medical school makes no sense. It is not the job of admissions deans to give someone a better life, as cold as that sounds. You can absolutely make a difference in the lives of those from rough backgrounds, you can help to change the institutional processes that keep people in poverty, in crime, etc... and increase their access to services that help them achieve the same access to education that you and I have. But you don't start with a medical school acceptance. If the person is a good applicant otherwise, they would have to decide based on whether this person has shown that they have overcome whatever made them beat or murder another person- which is nearly impossible in a profession entirely based on the value of human life

 

[235009]

Fellowship?

You can answer these questions by looking through my post history. Pulm/CC.

But Goro said his school interviews people with IAs including sexual assault, felony and cheating for some reason and then promptly rejects said applicants... which warrants the question, why even interview them in the first place?

Let me help you wade through the BS @Goro is writing. He's trying to confuse you on purpose. First you have to realize that @Goro is just a member of a committee comprised of multiple people and an admissions dean who can overrule him and has to take into account the best interest of the school by making sure he fills all the seats and keeps the fail/drop out rate low. So while @Goro may be recommending they reject those with IAs like the ones you mentioned it sounds like he routinely gets overruled. In general DO schools are not particularly competitive but at the same time want to keep their admission stats high. A great way to do this is to accept students with high stats and blemishes on their record since US MD schools have the luxury to pass on the majority (but not all) of these students. While they pay lip service to a "holistic approach" to application review all that is trying to do is encourage lower stats individuals to apply because without them they can't fill the class but they know that seemingly higher admissions standards are a great marketing tool so they'll try to pad the stats by taking a risk on people like OP.

Assuming OP has high stats (which he probably does if he got into his "dream" school) I bet after putting a couple years between him and this incident he may find at least one DO school willing to give him a shot.

On the other hand when @LizzyM says that they categorically reject anyone with anything more than just a minor IA at her school I believe her because she's at a top MD school.

 

[mock94]

In this thread Goro came off as that smug know-it-all who relies on first-impressions with full conviction and tries to blanket his assumptions using the conventional "but research shows that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students!!" line. It kind of reminds me of when I argue with my brother and his first line of attack is "but research shows..." just to increase his legitimacy without actually looking at the nuances of a situation.

Any type of research reliant on a doctor's IAs as a student screams confirmation bias. It's as if every single doctor that lied/cheated/stole during UG got caught. But there's a reason that Goro is just an Adcom and not an academic.

You can answer these questions by looking through my post history. Pulm/CC.




Let me help you wade through the BS @Goro is writing. He's trying to confuse you on purpose. First you have to realize that @Goro is just a member of a committee comprised of multiple people and an admissions dean who can overrule him and has to take into account the best interest of the school by making sure he fills all the seats and keeps the fail/drop out rate low. So while @Goro may be recommending they reject those with IAs like the ones you mentioned it sounds like he routinely gets overruled. In general DO schools are not particularly competitive but at the same time want to keep their admission stats high. A great way to do this is to accept students with high stats and blemishes on their record since US MD schools have the luxury to pass on the majority (but not all) of these students. While they pay lip service to a "holistic approach" to application review all that is trying to do is encourage lower stats individuals to apply because without them they can't fill the class but they know that seemingly higher admissions standards are a great marketing tool so they'll try to pad the stats by taking a risk on people like OP.

Assuming OP has high stats (which he probably does if he got into his "dream" school) I bet after putting a couple years between him and this incident he may find at least one DO school willing to give him a shot.

On the other hand when @LizzyM says that they categorically reject anyone with anything more than just a minor IA at her school I believe her because she's at a top MD school.

 

[Goro]

As mentioned above, med schools aren't charities, nor the Make-A-Wish Foundation. No one has a right to a career in Medicine.

It's not about their hopes and dreams, it's about the patients. We Faculty not only have to teach these people, we turn them loose on the US patient population. Who would you rather have treating your mom? Someone with clean hands, or the OP, who, when backed into a corner, was dishonest?

We've got plenty of other candidates who don't have such black marks on their apps. Not everyone is meant to be a doctor.

You've never felt compassion for any of the applicants that have stood before you chasing a dream and begging for a better life? There's reason for everything, and some of them are downright awful and stupid. However, some people haven't had a choice. Some people played the hand they were dealt. They prostituted themselves because they didn't have anything else to sell. The assaulted someone because they'd spent their whole life being beaten. They killed someone because there was no other way in the moment to make sure they would made it to the next. Now, I know that isn't the norm. I know the people who make it to your chopping block, by and large, have rarely faced that sort of adversity. Still, those people are real. They are living and breathing in the world around you. They are the people who fill ERs and CPS caseloads. While it is few in many contexts, some make it this far, and what about them? Where do they fit in? Do you believe they fit in nowhere within this profession? Or are there exceptions for what this field may view as the extraordinary, but is really the ordinary in the slums? Is there only tolerance for those who weren't caught?

Ahh, I love the voice of ignorance in the morning. "Just an Adcom"? Perhaps you're unaware that most Adcom members are Faculty, like gyngyn, Hushcom and the great LizzyM? For your edification, I have a PhD in one of the Basic Science disciplines, and have been teaching med students for > 15 years. And still publishing too.

My clinical colleagues are the harshest on cheaters. Tell them about "confirmation bias".

You also are ignorant of the policy at my school which will be after the interview to privately ask each person with an IA about their transgression. Their answers are quite telling and mostly confirm our suspicions, rather than allay them.

I take it you're one of those people who hate having others judge you? Get use to it.

In this thread Goro came off as that smug know-it-all who relies on first-impressions with full conviction and tries to blanket his assumptions using the conventional "but research shows that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students!!" line. It kind of reminds me of when I argue with my brother and his first line of attack is "but research shows..." just to increase his legitimacy without actually looking at the nuances of a situation.

Any type of research reliant on a doctor's IAs as a student screams confirmation bias. It's as if every single doctor that lied/cheated/stole during UG got caught. But there's a reason that Goro is just an Adcom and not an academic.

I actually don't think that's what goro meant based on his wording.



It's to make sure people like the OP don't get into their schools, for transgressions post-interview but pre-matriculation. One example would be a school that has a pre-req of, say, Physics with a grade of C or higher, but said candidate hadn't taken Physics prior to the interview. Candidate slacks off in complacency post-interview and gets a D. What should the school do?

So, I find that pretty interesting that admissions deans would thoroughly analyze every acceptees applications prior to matriculation. @Goro , is the purpose of this to try and find a reason to rescind an acceptance? Seems like a strange thing to do and poor use of time .

 

[WingedOx]

In this thread Goro came off as that smug know-it-all who relies on first-impressions with full conviction and tries to blanket his assumptions using the conventional "but research shows that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students!!" line. It kind of reminds me of when I argue with my brother and his first line of attack is "but research shows..." just to increase his legitimacy without actually looking at the nuances of a situation.

Any type of research reliant on a doctor's IAs as a student screams confirmation bias. It's as if every single doctor that lied/cheated/stole during UG got caught. But there's a reason that Goro is just an Adcom and not an academic.

Dude, you're taking the things that Goro (and other adcoms here) WAY too literally without appreciating any of the subtext of what they're saying.

(As I've frequently said on these forums, those who fail to pick up on sarcasm on the internet will make terrible doctors some day)

 

[meeninit]

In this thread Goro came off as that smug know-it-all who relies on first-impressions with full conviction and tries to blanket his assumptions using the conventional "but research shows that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students!!" line. It kind of reminds me of when I argue with my brother and his first line of attack is "but research shows..." just to increase his legitimacy without actually looking at the nuances of a situation.

Any type of research reliant on a doctor's IAs as a student screams confirmation bias. It's as if every single doctor that lied/cheated/stole during UG got caught. But there's a reason that Goro is just an Adcom and not an academic.

Personally I believe Goro represents a balancing force on an Adcom committee, but I'll get back to this later.

You do raise an important point: first-impressions do appear to be a large component of the final decision. And in my eyes that's a huge flaw. Without even knowing anything about the OP, almost every SDN'er and her brother jumped on the "you dun screwed up" bandwagon and made an immediate assessment of his character. Automatic gut feelings and stereotypes are an integral component of being human and that's why things like microaggressions are endemic.

Now back to my initial point, Goro isn't the only person sitting on an Adcom. There are multiple other types of people with different beliefs. I'm in pharmacy school and have seen the same in my school. Interviewers range from academic advisors to the most strict and stuck-up biochemistry professor.
If every single Adcom member believed in second chances then checking the IA box would no longer serve its purpose. Goro's colleagues likely range from the the most strict arse to the holistic type, and the sum of the beliefs and opinions coming out of the Adcom is what determines the final judgement.

And I don't know if you recognize the username but I'm that dude that got an IA for forging a parking pass. @Goro would probably never give me a second look. And I'm fine with that. Even Goro himself takes into account his colleagues that believe in redemption and gives advice to people with IAs with that in mind.

 

[LuluLovesMe]

And I don't know if you recognize the username but I'm that dude that got an IA for forging a parking pass. @Goro would probably never give me a second look. And I'm fine with that. Even Goro himself takes into account his colleagues that believe in redemption and gives advice to people with IAs with that in mind.

Which med school did you get into?