Terrible student + bipolar

[amandabelle]

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Hey everyone,

So I've decided I want to go to medical school. However, I suffer from bipolar disorder...

I originally went to film school. I ended up with a ton of Fs and Ws while there. I was 19 at the time. I was also put on academic probation for a 1.8 GPA by the end of my sophomore year - by then I was 20.

Basically I was struggling with my disorder, and had no idea what was wrong with me, so I hid it from most of my family and friends. During that time I was hospitalized a number of times too, which kind of tipped my family and friends off... finally. I was extremely suicidal and my depression was awful. I could not even get out of bed to get to classes, let alone try to pass them! I ended up spending 3 months in a residential treatment facility.

I am now 26 and on meds that have worked wonders for me. I also go to weekly therapy, group therapy and support groups. I feel like me again. I still get depressed, but I have learned to work through my depression. I have not been hypomanic is years.

Now I am at a community college, working on my grades. I have a 4.0 GPA at this particular school, plus I am in the honors college. I also have a boatload of extracurriculars and volunteer work. I also work full-time at a well-known, highly respected company.

I am automatically guaranteed admissions to specific colleges, some that offer pre-med advising. I am thinking of going that route. I have already taken beginner bio and chem classes. I want to go more in depth with those kind of classes, so I figured pre-med suits me, especially since I am thinking about becoming a doctor. I am an English major, but I want to minor in bio or chem.

The main thing is, I am afraid that my past failures will work against me. I am also afraid I cannot become a doctor with bipolar disorder. I have not had issues with it in about 5 years. I do keep a stressful schedule, so I do not think that will be a problem for me.

Anyone have advice? Will my bipolar disorder weigh negatively on me? Like my past medical records, etc.? I feel like my brain is so different now, much calmer, and happier. I hope I can express that to the medical community.

 

[deleted480308]

1. Congrats
2. Keep up with your doctor's advice for treatment and handle your Med issues as a priority in your life. I have family who constantly drop meds because they feel better once they are on the meds and assume they don't need them anymore...it's messy
3. For md schools those grades are always there and will always weigh on your gpa, DO schools offer grade replacement
4. All th extra stuff is fine but nothing matters more than gpa and mcat, don't spread yourself too thin

 

[QofQuimica]

YOU are not qualified to judge whether you can handle the stress of medical training, for at least three reasons: 1) you don't have any experience to judge how difficult medical training is; 2) you are not a trained psychiatrist who is qualified to evaluate questions like this; and 3) even if you were, you are not able to be objective about your own condition.

I suggest that before you do anything else, you should talk to your psychiatrist and let them know that you are considering medical school. If your doctor tells you it's a bad idea, then you should pursue an alternative career that will be less detrimental to your health. Whatever psychiatric issues you have will only be magnified by the stress of medical training. For the sake of your own life and health, you should think twice before undertaking something like this that will interfere with you having a regular sleep schedule and otherwise could worsen your condition. I say this especially given that your BPD is currently well-controlled; going to medical school is not worth dying for. But again, ask your psychiatrist what he or she thinks, and if you get the go-ahead, make sure you put some serious thought into how and whom you will include in your future support structure.

 

[amandabelle]

No offense @QofQuimica, I appreciate your honesty, but how do you know I don't have experience to judge how difficult medical training is (I've had a number of opportunities in my past, since high school actually)? Also I think I've learned to be objective with my illness. As objective as any person can be. It is why I came here to hear feedback. If I wasn't, I think I'd have jumped straight into a pre-med course of study and just gone with it. With that said, I haven't told my psychiatrist about my interest in medical school yet, however I feel she will probably be fully supportive of it. Hesitant, maybe, but ultimately she believes in my pursuits, especially since I haven't let my mental illness stop me in years. I work in a very high stress job already and I've still managed to keep a full-time load at school. I don't want to seem argumentative, but I think it's a bit unfair to judge me based on one post. I will take your advice though and consult my team. For sure. I don't do anything without their opinions anyway. Thank you though!

 

[DrMidlife]

Anybody who has medical training is going to assume that your meds aren't working & you've gone manic when you talk about wanting to go to med school. That's what you're up against. Accept it. Don't fight it.

If you're smart, which presumably you are, you'll stop arguing with the advice you get. It just makes you sound like a 13 year old being denied a new iphone. Nobody here cares what you think about how hard med school is because you haven't been in it. You have an incredibly experienced adviser above giving of her scant spare time to offer an informed opinion. Take it or leave it.

Here's a recent discussion about how hard and/or worth it med school is/was for people not also dealing with mental illness: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...re-already-physicians-is-it-worth-it.1178947/

Here's an old blog from a bipolar med student. No idea if she made it past intern year.
http://bipolarinmedschool.blogspot.com/

Best of luck to you.

 

[deleted480308]

No offense @QofQuimica, I appreciate your honesty, but how do you know I don't have experience to judge how difficult medical training is (I've had a number of opportunities in my past, since high school actually)? Also I think I've learned to be objective with my illness. As objective as any person can be. It is why I came here to hear feedback. If I wasn't, I think I'd have jumped straight into a pre-med course of study and just gone with it. With that said, I haven't told my psychiatrist about my interest in medical school yet, however I feel she will probably be fully supportive of it. Hesitant, maybe, but ultimately she believes in my pursuits, especially since I haven't let my mental illness stop me in years. I work in a very high stress job already and I've still managed to keep a full-time load at school. I don't want to seem argumentative, but I think it's a bit unfair to judge me based on one post. I will take your advice though and consult my team. For sure. I don't do anything without their opinions anyway. Thank you though!

They were right. You don't have any clue how hard it is...you can't unless you've been through it. It's not personal, it's 100% irrelevant to who you are, it's just that the process is hard and it breaks people. A lot of people. Significantly higher suicide rates than the general population. You were warned because people care.

 

[amandabelle]

I didn't mean to sound whiny. Sorry about that. I'm just used to facing a huge stigma slapped on my forehead the moment I say I'm bipolar, even within the medical community.

 

[link2swim06]

I didn't mean to sound whiny. Sorry about that. I'm just used to facing a huge stigma slapped on my forehead the moment I say I'm bipolar, even within the medical community.

You don't really understand the medical training process until you have been through it. That is what everyone is getting at. A large percent of people without a hx of bipolar, depression, etc. will meet clinical criteria for depression during med school/residency. If you are already entering with these problems you are at a much higher risk.

It is more than just long hours. At worst case scenario it's...

1. Having to move 2-4 times in a 10 year period were you essential your entire support system and have to rebuild it in a new city (or state?) while working a million hours.
2. Being sleep deprived, likely drinking stimulants (coffee), with a sometimes a terrible sleep schedule.
3. Having make or break tests, where literally your entire career depends on one single test.
4. Having massive debt looming over your head.
5. Even when you are done, you will have a very stressful job.

So that why it might be best to have a psychiatrist to determine if you will be able to handle, "Living alone in a new city, with no friends, little support system (compared to now), as a new intern who knows little about medicine, chronically sleep deprived, in massive financial debt, while being able to make objective life and death decisions daily for others."

 

[H2Oman]

I didn't mean to sound whiny. Sorry about that. I'm just used to facing a huge stigma slapped on my forehead the moment I say I'm bipolar, even within the medical community.

So stop telling people you have this diagnosis. If it doesn't impede your functionality, why would you mention it? If it does, accept the human biases that come with disclosing health information. Does that suck? Yup. But that's how people are.

 

[amandabelle]

@H2Oman Yikes. I don't really tell people my diagnosis in daily life. My doctors do know about it for obvious reasons, so yeah, it does suck when there's a stigma even in the medical field. Human biases are there, but that shouldn't get in the way of how you treat your patients. Wowowow. Are you sure you are ready for medical school? Chill. The reason I brought it up here is because I'm wondering if I have to disclose this info at all legally, etc. I was looking for advice.

 

[amandabelle]

You don't really understand the medical training process until you have been through it. That is what everyone is getting at. A large percent of people without a hx of bipolar, depression, etc. will meet clinical criteria for depression during med school/residency. If you are already entering with these problems you are at a much higher risk.

It is more than just long hours. At worst case scenario it's...

1. Having to move 2-4 times in a 10 year period were you essential your entire support system and have to rebuild it in a new city (or state?) while working a million hours.
2. Being sleep deprived, likely drinking stimulants (coffee), with a sometimes a terrible sleep schedule.
3. Having make or break tests, where literally your entire career depends on one single test.
4. Having massive debt looming over your head.
5. Even when you are done, you will have a very stressful job.

So that why it might be best to have a psychiatrist to determine if you will be able to handle, "Living alone in a new city, with no friends, little support system (compared to now), as a new intern who knows little about medicine, chronically sleep deprived, in massive financial debt, while being able to make objective life and death decisions daily for others."

I appreciate this type of honesty. I must say I've already moved quite a bit for my current job and I also don't get as much sleep as I probably need, but function fine. The tests might be kind of scary though. Also the debt. It is definitely something I still need to think about it. Sure I'm bipolar, but I actually prefer high stress jobs. I get bored otherwise. Not saying you're doing this, but I don't like being lumped together when bipolar impacts individuals differently.

I will definitely have a serious talk with my doctors though. That is for sure. I'm not going to make this decision right away...

 

[H2Oman]

No, I'm not sure. That's why I'm working on pre-reqs, studying hard, and preparing how I may. And that's why I'm going through the same motions as many others to help find out [not really] if [but which subset of] medicine is right for me.

I also wouldn't come on a board and explain to others that I not only "suffer from" but that "I am" a given medical diagnosis and not expect some level of bias--in using these words you're inviting the bias in. Embrace your disease and the associated biases or consider reframing how you deal with it. Language is powerful.

And I disagree: a patient diagnosed with and self-identifying as bipolar is probably ill-advised to put him/herself into situations of extremely high stress, removal from support systems, and adverse sleep routines. You should not be coming to this board for this. You should be talking to your healthcare providers. If all is gravy there, the question for this board might be something more like, "this is what I'm dealing with and have set to do; this is my plan to do it. Got any amendments or additions to this plan?" Because if anyone comes to me and says, "I have XYZ problem and I worry about my ability to achieve ABC, is it going to adversely impact me or prevent me from achieving this goal?" My response is apt to be, "With that frame of mind, most likely."

In light of the passing of Muhammad Ali today, let me phrase it differently. Ali, nor likely any other champion prizefighter, ever set out to be champion and said, "Things were tough for me, can I be a champion?" Or maybe, rather, "My childhood was blissful, can I be a champion fighter?" In Ali, in a Champion, there was a constantly repeated word in many forms: great. "I just turned 22 years old. I must be the greatest." "Greatest of all time."
After 31 professional wins do you think a loss to Joe Frazier caused Ali to ask his peers, "I have suffered a loss. I bear the weight and stigma of a loser." Absolutely not. He moved on to put himself to the task of regaining the heavyweight title and securing his place as the greatest boxer of all time.

You can be your diagnosis or you can be someone who received a diagnosis at one point and went on to achieve despite adversity. This is the measure of character.

 

[amandabelle]

No, I'm not sure. That's why I'm working on pre-reqs, studying hard, and preparing how I may. And that's why I'm going through the same motions as many others to help find out [not really] if [but which subset of] medicine is right for me.

I also wouldn't come on a board and explain to others that I not only "suffer from" but that "I am" a given medical diagnosis and not expect some level of bias--in using these words you're inviting the bias in. Embrace your disease and the associated biases or consider reframing how you deal with it. Language is powerful.

And I disagree: a patient diagnosed with and self-identifying as bipolar is probably ill-advised to put him/herself into situations of extremely high stress, removal from support systems, and adverse sleep routines. You should not be coming to this board for this. You should be talking to your healthcare providers. If all is gravy there, the question for this board might be something more like, "this is what I'm dealing with and have set to do; this is my plan to do it. Got any amendments or additions to this plan." Because if anyone comes to me and says, "I have XYZ problem and I worry about my ability to achieve ABC, is it going to adversely impact me or prevent me from achieving this goal?" My response is apt to be, "With that frame of mind, most likely."

In light of the passing of Muhammad Ali today, let me phrase it differently. Ali, nor likely any other champion prizefighter, ever set out to be champion and said, "Things were tough for me, can I do be a champion?" Or maybe, rather, "My childhood was blissful, can I be a champion fighter?" In Ali, in a Champion, there was a constantly repeated word in many forms: great. "I just turned 22 years old. I must be the greatest." "Greatest of all time."
After 31 professional wins do you think a loss to Joe Frazier caused Ali to ask his peers, "I have suffered a loss. I bear the weight and stigma of a loser." Absolutely not. He moved on to put himself to the task of regaining the heavyweight title and securing his place as the greatest boxer of all time.

You can be your diagnosis or you can be someone who received a diagnosis at one point as went on to achieve despite adversity. This is the measure of character.

You know, I say I am bipolar in the sense that someone says their diabetic. Stop trying to psychoanalyze me because of my language.

I do talk to my healthcare providers -multiple times a week. Did I not make that clear? I also made it clear that I'm taking the advice of those who advised me beforehand to speak to my team. I am.

I didn't question my ability......... I know my ability. I've proven I can get through hard times, do school work, and stay on top of a high stress job. Like??? What more do you want? That's not what I came here for.

You're kind of being pompous and nobody has really answered my questions either. I was 1) Afraid that I can't become a doctor because of bipolar disorder. Not because I don't believe in my abilities, but I don't really know the legalities of everything... 2) I was also afraid that my past GPA might impact me negatively in the process.

Just yikes. Thanks for the welcome to the forums, guys.

 

[DrMidlife]

Yes, your past GPA hurts you.

Yes, being bipolar is a major concern for any career where there is legal liability for your behavior and actions.

You've done everything wrong on SDN. Close your account, start a new one. Stop posting and just read.

 

[amandabelle]

Yes, your past GPA hurts you.

Yes, being bipolar is a major concern for any career where there is legal liability for your behavior and actions.

You've done everything wrong on SDN. Close your account, start a new one. Stop posting and just read.

Sorry, I didn't realize being outspoken on the Internet under a semi-anonymous name would be a problem for my future. Honestly if I had come here and hadn't said a word about my mental health, I wouldn't have gotten this response. You all don't see a problem with this?

 

[deleted480308]

Sorry, I didn't realize being outspoken on the Internet under a semi-anonymous name would be a problem for my future. Honestly if I had come here and hadn't said a word about my mental health, I wouldn't have gotten this response. You all don't see a problem with this?

you are proposing the mental health equivalent of running a marathon with pre-existing heart problems......yes, it can be done but there are increased risks over the general population. It's still your call, but it doesn't make sense to pretend that everyone is being judgemental for issuing common sense medical concern for you

 

[DrMidlife]

yes you would have gotten the same response w/o mentioning mental health because YOU ARE ARGUING WITH THE ANSWERS you are given. nobody here is interested in your perspective on the answers.

 

[amandabelle]

you are proposing the mental health equivalent of running a marathon with pre-existing heart problems......yes, it can be done but there are increased risks over the general population. It's still your call, but it doesn't make sense to pretend that everyone is being judgemental for issuing common sense medical concern for you

I didn't come here to be doled out medical advice though. Wouldn't that be... more appropriate for a medical treatment forum? I see my doctors and I am very self-aware and concerned for my health. They keep up with my health and what not. I appreciate the concern, but I think it's a little misplaced.

 

[deleted480308]

I didn't come here to be doled out medical advice though. Wouldn't that be... more appropriate for a medical treatment forum? I see my doctors and I am very self-aware and concerned for my health. They keep up with my health and what not. I appreciate the concern, but I think it's a little misplaced.

you put your diagnosis in the title.....why are you shocked that it was considered in their advice?

 

[amandabelle]

yes you would have gotten the same response w/o mentioning mental health because YOU ARE ARGUING WITH THE ANSWERS you are given. nobody here is interested in your perspective on the answers.

I was literally asking the same questions over and over again in a variety of language. It took almost an entire page of me defending myself before someone could actually answer my questions, instead of trying to treat me.

 

[amandabelle]

you put your diagnosis in the title.....why are you shocked that it was considered in their advice?

Did I ask for treatment?

 

[DrMidlife]

get over yourself. you are choosing to only notice the parts that chap your fanny. there's plenty of totally useful advice for you in this thread.

 

[deleted480308]

Did I ask for treatment?

no one is screwing with your dosage, they're saying that you are proposing an endeavor that disproportionately exacerbates mental illness and kills people. They die. How could any of us be good humans and not warn you?

 

[amandabelle]

get over yourself. you are choosing to only notice the parts that chap your fanny. there's plenty of totally useful advice for you in this thread.

There is, I never said there wasn't.

 

[amandabelle]

no one is screwing with your dosage, their saying that you are proposing an endeavor that disproportionately exacerbates mental illness and kills people. They die. How could any of us be good humans and not warn you?

I never said I didn't appreciate that, but do you think I don't know about my illness? Bipolar kills people, whether they're trying to become doctors or not. I'm not going to put my life on hold because I'm afraid that every choice I make is going to lead to my death. I will take the proper precautions like taking my meds and continuing to consult my doctors, but honestly, you don't feel animosity from this thread (and not just from me)?

 

[DrMidlife]

you're choosing to see animosity.

 

[deleted480308]

I never said I didn't appreciate that, but do you think I don't know about my illness? Bipolar kills people, whether they're trying to become doctors or not. I'm not going to put my life on hold because I'm afraid that every choice I make is going to lead to my death. I will take the proper precautions like taking my meds and continuing to consult my doctors, but honestly, you don't feel animosity from this thread (and not just from me)?

this is exhausting...I wish you well

 

[amandabelle]

you're choosing to see animosity.

You just said I had a chapped ass. Really? Could you just leave?

 

[amandabelle]

this is exhausting...I wish you well

I'm sorry if I exhausted you. I actually really like what you had to say and found you helpful. Thank you for the well wishes though.

 

[ProspectiveKidd]

Most of the time, when people with depression or mental issues consult others on this site they are told to seek treatment and hammer on. "You can handle it!" The fact of the matter is thats not always the case and it may be better not to place that undue stress on yourself if you're already having issues. Thats all anyone is saying in this thread. You're getting input from medical students, residents, and an attending saying the same thing. Every year the same medical students, interns, and doctors who are sharp as a tack and perfectly healthy end up killing themselves due to this process and career.

There is a lot to consider for anyone, and even more for you because of your diagnosis. You and your psychiatrist know your situation best, so consult with them, do a LOT of research and feel things out.

 

[Goro]

OP, you are getting some outstanding advice here. As a med school faculty member, I know first hand that med school is a furnace, and I've seen it break even healthy students. The #1 reason my school loses students to dismissal, withdrawal or leave of absence is due to mental illness issues.

And do recognize that you came here for realistic advice, not hugs and kisses.


Agree 1000% with my learned colleagues.

YOU are not qualified to judge whether you can handle the stress of medical training, for at least three reasons: 1) you don't have any experience to judge how difficult medical training is; 2) you are not a trained psychiatrist who is qualified to evaluate questions like this; and 3) even if you were, you are not able to be objective about your own condition.

I suggest that before you do anything else, you should talk to your psychiatrist and let them know that you are considering medical school. If your doctor tells you it's a bad idea, then you should pursue an alternative career that will be less detrimental to your health. Whatever psychiatric issues you have will only be magnified by the stress of medical training. For the sake of your own life and health, you should think twice before undertaking something like this that will interfere with you having a regular sleep schedule and otherwise could worsen your condition. I say this especially given that your BPD is currently well-controlled; going to medical school is not worth dying for. But again, ask your psychiatrist what he or she thinks, and if you get the go-ahead, make sure you put some serious thought into how and whom you will include in your future support structure.

Sorry, I didn't realize being outspoken on the Internet under a semi-anonymous name would be a problem for my future. Honestly if I had come here and hadn't said a word about my mental health, I wouldn't have gotten this response. You all don't see a problem with this?

Most of the time, when people with depression or mental issues consult others on this site they are told to seek treatment and hammer on. "You can handle it!" The fact of the matter is thats not always the case and it may be better not to place that undue stress on yourself if you're already having issues. Thats all anyone is saying in this thread. You're getting input from medical students, residents, and an attending saying the same thing. Every year the same medical students, interns, and doctors who are sharp as a tack and perfectly healthy end up killing themselves due to this process and career.

There is a lot to consider for anyone, and even more for you because of your diagnosis. You and your psychiatrist know your situation best, so consult with them, do a LOT of research and feel things out.

 

[amandabelle]

Thank you to everyone that's replied so far.

Again I don't mean to be argumentative, at all, I just felt backed into a corner at times while in this particular thread. Also I would like to note that I don't become manic, only hypomanic. There is a difference and, again, I haven't been so in years. I really only struggle with the depressive parts of my illness now and I've overcome a lot with it. I don't seek validation from my grades, so if I mess up a test in med school, it's not going to break me. I'm a lot stronger than the presumptions in this thread make me out to be. A lot of getting through depression is mind over matter, you know? I can do it...

Now my question for anyone and everyone: If I do decide to go forward with pre-med studies, what would you suggest my next steps to be? I have doctors in my family, so I'm definitely planning to talk to them, but does anyone have any other advice about actually becoming pre-med?

 

[QofQuimica]

Again, talking to your psychiatrist about your plans should be your next move. No one here wants to discourage you unnecessarily. But the reason why I said you aren't qualified to judge whether you can go into medicine is because being bipolar affects your judgment. That is an inherent part of the illness. And no, you aren't able to know what medical training is like, because you haven't undergone it. Your psychiatrist, who has both gone through med school/residency and presumably knows you well, along with being professionally trained to help people with mental illnesses, is the best person from whom to seek advice regarding whether or not medical school is an option specifically for you. She can also be objective about your illness stability in a way that you can't, because this isn't her own desires that she's dealing with here. Even people without BPD can't be completely objective about their own problems; that's why whenever dealing with emotional issues, we all seek advice and counseling from others who can be more objective about our problems than we can be.

The fact that you're apparently bipolar II and not bipolar I is a plus. But speaking as someone on the training side of things, I'm actually more concerned about a trainee with BPD or MDD becoming suicidal. It happens; one of my interns killed himself when I was a med student, and another resident probably accidentally died while attempting to self-medicate. Drug and alcohol addiction are also potential problems for susceptible trainees. So while I'm sorry that I can't give you the unqualified support that you appear to be seeking, I stand by what I said before, which is that the stress of medical training is known to exacerbate latent mental illness. As someone with a known mental illness, your health and maybe even your life would be at risk. And again, going to medical school is NOT worth dying for.

 

[Biology4Life84]

I think most people would advise most people to not go down the medical doctor path.......

What's interesting is that even the students that make it to medical school are not sure how hard medical school is until they've made it through.

Even students without mental issues fail out so it's not the best measure to assume that mental illness is your weakness.

I have mental illness of some sort and really questioned my ability to withstand the constant retainment of endless information........

I am not in med school but really really listen to those that have the med school experience.

Your sanity is more important than attaining this lofty goal. Many have probably lost their sanity in pursuit of a medical education....

 

[esob]

Personally, for something as minor as a foot injury I sustained while on active duty, I made sure my doctor would support that the issue wouldn't hinder me from medical school. This is not because I think it would but because I wanted to have a medical professional, who had treated me long term, ready to go in the event that I get accepted and a school questioned my "fitness." Diabetes, bipolar, arthrosis of the greater MTP - anything that might hold you up, you should have a doc in your pocket willing to testify on a stack of bibles that it won't prevent you from successfully completing your medical school curriculum. That's just good planning.

 

[Dral]

Something to consider: There is sort of a 'point of no return' for most people in medical school. Somewhere after first year, throughout second year, and into third year...most have put in enough time and are that much in debt that it is hard to make the switch out of the physician career path.

If you found out that the stress of it was negatively affecting your health, it may be hard to back out when it's what should be done.

Hopefully that wouldn't happen to you once you started it. Slowly pushing the stress now (which is what you seem to be doing) is probably a decent approach to see how you handle things.

Again, as others have alluded to, it's difficult to appreciate the stresses of medical school and residency without experiencing them first hand. But it's one of those things...you'll never know unless you try. As long as you stay hypercognizant of your mental health, it should be ok. If your disease is under control and continues to stay that way, I would hope that things would work out. Best of luck.

 

[DrMikeP]

I didn't mean to sound whiny. Sorry about that. I'm just used to facing a huge stigma slapped on my forehead the moment I say I'm bipolar, even within the medical community.

Yes, you do and to some extent it's an earned stigma from tons of BPD patients who go off meds when times get tough. Med school pushes people regularly into hypomanic and depressive states. So definitely discuss the idea with your psych drs. People offer free advice here so as others said, you don't debate free advice, as adcoms will think the same way and you need to figure out how to respond.

The next step after confirming you can emotionally do it maybe is then take all the premed classes and biochem and make As and then ace the MCAT. How you accomplish that is up to you. You should perhaps also look at retaking F/Ds to boost your cgpa to above 3.25. DO is likely your best if not almost only shot.

Good luck



Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[4334sunset]

Let me just be direct here. Medical school and the types it attracts, is competitive in general. So is the workplace. In my current workplace, a coworker is always being nice to my face and trying to slash my throat behind my back--I mean that figuratively, of course--all you psychiatrists on the forum, please don't be quick to analyze me as a paranoid schizophrenic with delusions of persecution. You're going to be discouraged by peers in a competitive environment. Frankly, I was also told I had "bipolar" disorder at one point. After pulling myself out of that mess, I got away from the people who were making me crazy, stopped taking the fist-fulls of antidepressants, antipsychotics, uppers, downers, laughers and screamers the doctor was prescribing me in our 10 minute sessions--I got my life together and put it all behind me. It might have taken some crazy misadventures. It might have gotten me arrested a few times. But that is the past, at least half a decade in my past. These days I work like 55 hours a week and get no sleep, ever. I don't know how I am not abusing ADHD medication most days, but I function surprisingly well--better than ever, now that I have my life together. Don't let anyone sway you from your passion or goals--the workplace and especially medical school, is competitive in general. You're always going to deal with people telling you , you can't do it, and you are incapable. You're always going to have that idiot coworker trying to throw you under the bus so they look better to the boss, or professor. This is called politics, an unfortunate reality of social structures from the jungle, to prison, to the hospital

Should you be realistic? Yeah. you need to be realistic, you should consult with a doctor , or several doctors to get the full scope of your Dx. Don't just go into the doctor and say, "I'm bipolar and I want to go to medical school." For all you know, you aren't exactly bipolar. Maybe you're just off in some other aspect. In any case, coping with a hellish existence just makes one stronger.

Also, I'm not a doctor. But I have more life experience than a pre-med graduate who has been living off mother and father's income for the past 4 years. You have to have some true grit, and it sounds like you've got it. There is no need to delete your account and start over, and don't let anyone back you into a corner. Have a pleasant morning.

 

[jl lin]

Again, talking to your psychiatrist about your plans should be your next move. No one here wants to discourage you unnecessarily. But the reason why I said you aren't qualified to judge whether you can go into medicine is because being bipolar affects your judgment. That is an inherent part of the illness.

That is the reality.

 

[projectplat]

I am bipolar as well. I don't think it causes any concern. I'm interning at two hospitals currently (one is a target school) and they did background checks and everything. My psychiatrist (Vandy grad) fully supports my venture to getting an MD. Its pretty much all we talk about. He's really interested in the whole thing and the 2015 changes. I'm not sure if i'll make it through the MCAT and these courses, but i'm going to give it a shot and I haven't quit yet... 😎

 

[dissonance_]

.

 

[projectplat]

Personally, for something as minor as a foot injury I sustained while on active duty, I made sure my doctor would support that the issue wouldn't hinder me from medical school. This is not because I think it would but because I wanted to have a medical professional, who had treated me long term, ready to go in the event that I get accepted and a school questioned my "fitness." Diabetes, bipolar, arthrosis of the greater MTP - anything that might hold you up, you should have a doc in your pocket willing to testify on a stack of bibles that it won't prevent you from successfully completing your medical school curriculum. That's just good planning.

At what point would a bipolar diagnosis necessitate having a doctor back you up? Mine would 100%, but do you mean for boards or something after residency? What part of the process are you referring to?

 

[projectplat]

Here's an old blog from a bipolar med student. No idea if she made it past intern year.
http://bipolarinmedschool.blogspot.com/

Best of luck to you.

Thanks, this is helpful. It looks like she graduated a while ago.

 

[DrMikeP]

At what point would a bipolar diagnosis necessitate having a doctor back you up? Mine would 100%, but do you mean for boards or something after residency? What part of the process are you referring to?

To be diagnosed with bipolar involves at some point an impairment in functioning (that could be employment, academic, social, etc). Most people don't just say for the next month or 3 or 6 I'm going to not be able to work, engage in ADL's, run off and spend a ton of money I don't have, sleep and not speak to anyone for 2 weeks straight, etc. That would be saying you'd have poor judgment on purpose! Bipolar can be treated and managed but many times bipolar patients decide for numerous reasons to not take their meds or even if on meds and a significant stressor occurs BOOM the cycle starts with a manic phase that is leading to very poor judgment or a severe depressive phase where one can't get out of bed. Med school is a huge stressor, I can't emphasize that one enough and there are times where you'll become hypomanic from just the lack of sleep. The idea of going to med school could even just be a sign of a manic phase or even a depressive phase involving irrational escapism.

So any one with any hx of mental illness should speak with their psychologist or psychiatrist prior to starting down the med school path. Think of it like this: If you have a heart condition, would it be appropriate to speak with your cardiologist prior to running a 10K marathon and get regular follow up visits while training???? That's called good judgment! Approaching med school with a hx of mental illness (especially Bipolar I given it's chronic nature and inherent lapses in judgment) is the same thing! Speak with your dr before and see somewhat regularly while in med school just to have an outside person who can measure current functioning against prior frame of reference. People in med school might find it hard to know if you are cycling or if that is just who you are.

 

[projectplat]

To be diagnosed with bipolar involves at some point an impairment in functioning (that could be employment, academic, social, etc). Most people don't just say for the next month or 3 or 6 I'm going to not be able to work, engage in ADL's, run off and spend a ton of money I don't have, sleep and not speak to anyone for 2 weeks straight, etc. That would be saying you'd have poor judgment on purpose! Bipolar can be treated and managed but many times bipolar patients decide for numerous reasons to not take their meds or even if on meds and a significant stressor occurs BOOM the cycle starts with a manic phase that is leading to very poor judgment or a severe depressive phase where one can't get out of bed. Med school is a huge stressor, I can't emphasize that one enough and there are times where you'll become hypomanic from just the lack of sleep. The idea of going to med school could even just be a sign of a manic phase or even a depressive phase involving irrational escapism.

So any one with any hx of mental illness should speak with their psychologist or psychiatrist prior to starting down the med school path. Think of it like this: If you have a heart condition, would it be appropriate to speak with your cardiologist prior to running a 10K marathon and get regular follow up visits while training???? That's called good judgment! Approaching med school with a hx of mental illness (especially Bipolar I given it's chronic nature and inherent lapses in judgment) is the same thing! Speak with your dr before and see somewhat regularly while in med school just to have an outside person who can measure current functioning against prior frame of reference. People in med school might find it hard to know if you are cycling or if that is just who you are.

Well, sure. Stability is key. I have had some major hurdles in emotional stability in the past, but with proper maintenance and care of my body in addition to taking the required meds should be fine. I'm 33. I have been through much and my psych feels I am stable enough to jump into this. I'm quite early in the process though.

Working out has been huge for me. I have always been athletic, but I have found that on the most stressful, sleep deprived days, a solid hour in the gym regulates positive chemicals in the mind, helps with clarity, and gives energy.

People in med school might find it hard to know if you are cycling or if that is just who you are.

Hardly anyone knows about my condition and struggles. My roommate from military college doesn't know. We've known each other for 15 years. I would be more comfortable talking to people about my diagnosis if people actually understood what it means (ie. psychiatrists). I'm not a runaway train anymore if mania hits. I've stumbled, crawled, and fallen to get to the right doses, and the right 'rescue doses' for as needed meds to get me back. I rarely miss days. I have a disciplined regiment for nutrition, fitness, and medication.

Could I fail? Sure. Am I higher risk? Yup. But, this is obvious and doesn't mean I shouldn't try.

 

[QofQuimica]

Could I fail? Sure. Am I higher risk? Yup. But, this is obvious and doesn't mean I shouldn't try.

No one is saying you shouldn't try (or that the OP shouldn't try either, for that matter). But there is a huge difference in your case versus hers: your psychiatrist knows about your plans for med school and is on board with you making the attempt.

For *any* bipolar applicant, getting their psychiatrist's blessing would be just as a much of a prereq as successfully completing a year of gen chem, amassing sufficient clinical experience, and earning a good MCAT score. As in, if you're bipolar (or have any other psychiatric diagnosis that could interfere with your ability to complete medical training), don't even bother applying to medical school without your treating doc's approval. Because again, the risk of medical training exacerbating a bipolar person's illness is real. And going to medical school is not worth sacrificing your health or your life.

 

[Nasrudin]

As others have said. But additionally.

There's no need for all or nothing type thinking at this point. Some of the greatest geniuses in history have had mood problems. You can accomplish great things. Now, medical training is punishingly tedious in that it doesn't reward the potential explosive creativity of hypomania/mania or the somber reflection of the depressive. Rather it rewards the plodding consistency of effort. Organization. Detail management. etc.

Physicians are your basic even tempered plodders. If neurotically organized with some spectrum and variety of narcissistic-masochistic-co-dependent traits that are adaptive in this environment. Every environment selects for certain functional capacities. Physician training selects quite vigorously against normal sleep behaviors, vulnerabilities to stress, mood problems, and so forth.

Bipolar mood problems are as different as the people who have them. Most people who talk about their "bipolar" are often more helpfully conceptualized along different lines. But whatever. The point is to target the functionality of the successful premed-med student-resident. Meeting that target is not an instantaneous process.

You can start with more widely applicable goals: 1. Being a good student. 2. Making good grades. 3. Choosing a practical field that you're also interested in. And just see where it goes. Shoot broadly for things like "being useful to others"; "being a healthcare professional"; "living a meaningful life." And then who knows. With enough testing in those environments you may even decide to go in another direction.

1000 premed freshman college students of all sorts will produce what... a couple dozen medical students...(help me out Q/DrML? idk to mortality rates for premed aspirations)... so you know. Move slowly, steadily in a positive direction for yourself, and congratulations on your positive progress thus far.

 

[clausewitz2]

As others have said. But additionally.

There's no need for all or nothing type thinking at this point. Some of the greatest geniuses in history have had mood problems. You can accomplish great things. Now, medical training is punishingly tedious in that it doesn't reward the potential explosive creativity of hypomania/mania or the somber reflection of the depressive. Rather it rewards the plodding consistency of effort. Organization. Detail management. etc.

Physicians are your basic even tempered plodders. If neurotically organized with some spectrum and variety of narcissistic-masochistic-co-dependent traits that are adaptive in this environment. Every environment selects for certain functional capacities. Physician training selects quite vigorously against normal sleep behaviors, vulnerabilities to stress, mood problems, and so forth.

Bipolar mood problems are as different as the people who have them. Most people who talk about their "bipolar" are often more helpfully conceptualized along different lines. But whatever. The point is to target the functionality of the successful premed-med student-resident. Meeting that target is not an instantaneous process.

You can start with more widely applicable goals: 1. Being a good student. 2. Making good grades. 3. Choosing a practical field that you're also interested in. And just see where it goes. Shoot broadly for things like "being useful to others"; "being a healthcare professional"; "living a meaningful life." And then who knows. With enough testing in those environments you may even decide to go in another direction.

1000 premed freshman college students of all sorts will produce what... a couple dozen medical students...(help me out Q/DrML? idk to mortality rates for premed aspirations)... so you know. Move slowly, steadily in a positive direction for yourself, and congratulations on your positive progress thus far.

Cart before the horse, etc. When you have your ducks in a row from a pre-med perspective, OP (if you are still reading), and let's be very clear, you currently do not, then you should consider if you are up to taking the plunge.

I get that you have worked a stressful job and done classes, but the extent of sleep disruption is hard to understand until you are up against it. Hell, med students don't have a clue until their surgical or ob/gyn clerkships for the most part. This is obviously a huge risk factor for anyone with a mood disorder, so do not take this lightly.


I can promise you if you go ahead with it that you will not be the only bipolar physician in America, or frankly, even in your hospital. But @Nasrudin is right - medicine rewards even-keeled plodders who just keep trudging when more is piled on and on and in.

 

[esob]

At what point would a bipolar diagnosis necessitate having a doctor back you up? Mine would 100%, but do you mean for boards or something after residency? What part of the process are you referring to?

I'm in premed still, I won't even be applying until 2018 but I'm very methodical about covering all my bases. I write code and perform data analytics (among other things) for a living so my M.O. is to examine every possible worse case scenario and then make an informed decision about the probability of overcoming that scenario.

 

[DrMikeP]

Just to stress the fact that I am in no way saying someone with mental illness shouldn't go to med school, as I wouldn't say a cardiac patient shouldn't. BUT it is extremely important to have a doctor's support before, through, and after. Having a med student, resident, or physician kill themselves or become subst abusers helps no one and it happens all too often, even when there is no reported psych hx.

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