Testing out LORs?

[spade92]

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Has anyone here every done this? Were you surprised/was the letter what you expected?

 

[The Cheat]

Uh, how are you going to test them out?

 

[gyngyn]

Has anyone here every done this? Were you surprised/was the letter what you expected?

You signed a affirmation (or didn't you?).

 

[spade92]

You signed a affirmation (or didn't you?).

By asking them for a LOR for another job or something to get a sense of what the LOR writer thinks of you. I still wouldn't be reading the LOR for medical school. Is this wrong in your opinion?

 

[gyngyn]

By asking them for a LOR for another job or something to get a sense of what the LOR writer thinks of you. I still wouldn't be reading the LOR for medical school. Is this wrong in your opinion?

If you are doing it for the express purpose of circumventing your promise, yes.

 

[The Cheat]

Just ask your letter writers if they can make you a strong LOR. Ask if they can describe experiences that show your readiness for med school.

 

[spade92]

If you are doing it for the express purpose of circumventing your promise, yes.

Just ask your letter writers if they can make you a strong LOR. Ask if they can describe experiences that show your readiness for med school.

Ugh then I risk getting a bad LOR. I still don't see what's so wrong if I didn't read the med school LOR. The jobs I want to apply to that have a LOR requirement don't have any sort of confidentiality agreement.

 

[gyngyn]

Ugh then I risk getting a bad LOR. I still don't see what's so wrong if I didn't read the med school LOR. The jobs I want to apply to that have a LOR requirement don't have any sort of confidentiality agreement.

If you are using this maneuver to circumvent confidentiality, then I submit that it is a breach of your promise.

 

[spade92]

If you are using this maneuver to circumvent confidentiality, then I submit that it is a breach of your promise.

Even though I'm technically not breaking any rules? You have to understand the severity of a less than stellar LOR and the risks that come with it.

 

[sovereign0]

Perhaps, but a bad LOR is rare and tells the admissions committee. One, you made such a bad impression on someone that they would agree to write you a letter of recommendation only to discredit you as an applicant, and two that you made such an impression on a letter writer, but had no idea of the impression that they had of you and still asked them about a letter of recommendation.

Anyway, Gyngyn is saying that you are breaking a moral promise that you made when you waived your right to see your letters of recommendation. If you went ahead and did what you describe, is it likely that anyone would ever find out? Probably not, but also consider the consequences you would face if someone did.

Maybe you should look at it this way. If you have a letter writer who you aren't sure will write you a good recommendation, why are you using their letter in the first place? Ideally, your letter writers should be people with whom you have developed a significant relationship with to the point where you are confident their recommendation will be good. Of course, you can rarely ever get ideal writers like that since professors are busy or have multiple letters to write, etc, but perhaps you should consider a different LOR author if you suspect that someone wrote poorly about you.

 

[The Cheat]

Where you ever asked to give a referral to someone you didn't like? How about a for a person you did like?

 

[hoihaie]

send it to your school's pre-med advisor and ask them to judge the quality for you

 

[gyngyn]

Even though I'm technically not breaking any rules? You have to understand the severity of a less than stellar LOR and the risks that come with it.

Just because there isn't a specific rule governing an action doesn't make a promise worth breaking.
Believe me, I've been in this business longer than you might imagine. I do understand the sanctity of a promise as well as the effect of a weak letter. If I can't believe that a letter was written without fear of discovery, it's not worth the electrons it was written with.

 

[Ad2b]

Technically, a physician prescribing oxycodone for a patient describing intense pain fully aware that said patient is an addict, is not breaking the rules.

However, ethically and in every other way, the physician is.

If you are that concerned about what the professor would say about you then I think you should ask someone else and stop trying to be technically correct while circuitously working a back channel.

 

[WedgeDawg]

1. gyngyn is absolutely correct in that just because it's not technically against the rules doesn't mean it's not wrong

2. If you feel like you have to "test" a letter, it's probably a good idea to find a different writer - you should be absolutely confident in your letter writer's intention to give you a solid letter

3. Even if you moved past all this and decided to "test" you have no idea how "good" this letter really is or if the letter you're seeing is the same quality as the letter you're sending to medical schools

 

[vellez]

If you do what you propose, you'll make a horrible doctor, and I'm sure that will come out in other areas of your app.

 

[Xenith]

Most have already said something along these lines, but I have to add that I just wouldn't feel right doing that. One of my writers asked me to review the letter, but I told them I was confident that their letter would improve my application and refused the offer. Not a saint here, but every small step you take to uphold your values, the more ethical professional you will become.

 

[Goro]

Interfolio has safeguards to prevent this very breach of confidentiality.

Has anyone here every done this? Were you surprised/was the letter what you expected?

 

[Xenith]

Interfolio has safeguards to prevent this very breach of confidentiality.

Not sure how that would work. Wouldn't the safeguards check the legitimacy of the writer and safely store a letter once uploaded? OP could easily ask the writer to write a separate letter for a different job. Even though this job must also be verified... If he knew the employer then he could game the system.

Frankly, OP, planning it out demonstrates how unethical it is.

 

[genericpremedstudent]

Ugh then I risk getting a bad LOR. I still don't see what's so wrong if I didn't read the med school LOR. The jobs I want to apply to that have a LOR requirement don't have any sort of confidentiality agreement.

i dont know why this issue comes up a lot, but i would never ask for a LOR from someone i had the slightest inclination wouldn't write me a strong LOR.

 

[Grace184]

Not sure how that would work. Wouldn't the safeguards check the legitimacy of the writer and safely store a letter once uploaded? OP could easily ask the writer to write a separate letter for a different job. Even though this job must also be verified... If he knew the employer then he could game the system.

Frankly, OP, planning it out demonstrates how unethical it is.

@gonnif has the rules on this...they're pretty serious. I asked hypothetically bc it was brought up in another thread. They have a contract with COCA(?) and every LOR used begins an investigation of some sort

 

[gannicus89]

I understand being worried about the quality of the letter...which is why you must ask people you trust, who believe that you are not just a good candidate for med school, but a phenomenal one. I asked each of my LOR writers for a STRONG letter and given my relationship with these professors/physicians, I don't have any doubts about the quality of the letters. There is one school for which I have to submit a letter from a writer who doesn't know me that well, but there is no getting around it. If you have a bunch of strong letters and one positive but weak letter, I don't think that's THAT big of an issue. When schools set up requirements like that, they have to know that not all students will have had strong relationships with every professor in the sciences.

Do not breach these rules.

 

[Doug Underhill]

I think a lot of these letter testers are coming from a field where it is NOT viewed as a breach of ethics, such as in business. They may not understand that it's different in this field.

 

[Grace184]

@spade92 i think your issue may just center around some deep seated issued with LORs, given this post, and your other one wanting them abolished completely...

 

[Doug Underhill]

Asking for LORs is scary, particularly for people with counter-dependent tendencies. It's completely unlike GPA, MCAT, or research: where you are largely are in control of your own destiny.

There's no Examkrackers book for LORs where you can do everything perfectly to get a great letter. Fundamentally, you have to trust the letter writer not to jeopardize your future, and this can be hard to do for many.

 

[Grace184]

It is super scary to interact with people. At the same time LORs are what your future will be consisting of for the rest of your life. Time to stop trying to beat the system and learn.

 

[itsogre]

If you do what you propose, you'll make a horrible doctor, and I'm sure that will come out in other areas of your app.

lol

Burnett's Law!

 

[Spector1]

If you don't trust your letter writer, you probably shouldnt have asked them for a letter.

 

[Goro]

Mods, please sticky!!

 

[sephora89]

People also probably would not write the same letter for schools, jobs, etc.

 

[greenroses]

If I understand the situation the applicant is trying to get a copy of a letter by having the writer submit to a second "job" that is basically sent to the applicant directly. First of all, regarding the confidentiality rule. While the applicant gives up the right to demand to see the letter, the letter writer is perfectly free to show it to the applicant if they choose to. Most professors do not do this or are aware of the option. Additionally as @Goro or @gyngyn have mentioned in the past, about 20% of letters are truly outstanding, 10-20% are truly low evaluations, and the 60%-70% in the middle run from above average to average to fair. It is, in my view not the most impactful factor in an applicant review. Rarely, very rarely, is there a strongly worded, specific issue, negative evaluation that blatantly states not recommending an applicant for medical school. Others that are negative for the most part, really aren't anything unusual to an adcom. They read usually more as a tough professor than anything else.

As for the situation here, the applicant is exposing him/herself to an unethical act that can follow you up thru being awarded your MD. You are violating at least 2 direct agreements on your letter request and on AMCAS primary in this regard. AMCAS has a strong incentive by the 130 odd schools that use them to keep the confidentially solid as well as the letter services to keep their contracts in order. They are audited randomly and would initiate investigations fairly quickly. Most of these are simple and cleared up without any involvement with applicant. Things like a letter writer submitting more than 1 letter, say MD, DO, and PA may be enough to flag and review.

The real issue is the risk; if considered a violation, you would likely be banned from using AMCAS. End of story, do not pass go, do not collect your MD from an American school ever. While I am on the subject, letters that reach schools will more scrutiny as you move thru the process. Professors get called for simply thing like no letterhead. If a school suspects fraud, you would be dropped and likely reported. Let me just add that if any ethical situation in the application phase is discovered, even after you have been admitted, you can be thrown out. Recent court case on this strongly supports schools in this action. You would have loans outstanding that you could be sued over for fraud by the Federal government. While unlikely, you could get Federal criminal charges for fraud (I know of at least 1 case of this). It would be an interesting set of circumstances to explain when asked by your cell mates in Federal prison when they ask "What'cha in for?"

In sum, the obsessive compulsive fear and stress that this process brings upon premeds is no reason to risk it all over at worst a possible weak letter





https://www.aamc.org/download/272452/data/coabulletin1.31.12.pdf
The release of confidential information in an evaluation letter to an applicant, no matter how inadvertent, can negatively impact the applicant’s relationship wit h both the letter writer and the medical school to which he/she is applying and undermine the candor with which letter writers are likely to convey information in the future.

https://www.aamc.org/download/332578/data/lettersguidelinesbrochure.pdf
https://www.aamc.org/initiatives/admissionsinitiative/letters/332572/lettersofevaluationguidelines.html
https://www.aamc.org/students/advisors/amcas-advisors/370390/amcas-letters-advisors.html

I don't get this as most people's letter writers will often write letters for multiple things. Does amcas typically ask them when they do this? I've never heard this before