TFP Thread

Started by deleted1162946
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Bro I don’t know, the lobster life in the real word is something else.

The trauma, 3am puss buss cases and elective surgery seems so much more straightforward than general diabetic care, they don’t get better, it never ends.
Dealing with that right now as a one man pp.

Heal this person up multiple times.
Get them to the right place, A1c looks great.
Zero issues last 6mo at previous amp site.

Gets back from work has some soreness.

Get an xray- looks like latent osteo in the met head at previous amp site.

I'm so angry man.
Incredibly frustrating to work so freaking hard to get this patient to where the are only to have it blow up again.

If there was a hospital pod around would happily toss to them.
 
I'm so angry man.
Incredibly frustrating to work so freaking hard to get this patient to where the are only to have it blow up again.
This strikes at the core selling points of podiatry as a career path and a medical specialty. You're not really the hero surgeon who solves the problem and then rides off into the sunset. You're more like the longitudinal care provider who manages their foot problems and tackles complications when--not if--they arise. I'm sure the pre-health advisors will spin this in a positive light, you get to remain a part of your patients' lives much like their PCP. But you'll be frustrated if you think of your work in terms of curing. We don't cure the disease, we manage the complications. It's never "goodbye," it's "until we meet again."
 
TFP question on steroid injections:

What are your absolute “do not inject” locations?

For me it’s:
  • Achilles
  • PTT
  • Peroneals
  • 2nd MPJ
During training I worked with one well-known “foot and ankle surgeon” aka podiatrist who routinely injected the peroneals for diagnostic purposes. Now I’m with another who doesn’t hesitate to inject the 2nd MPJ.

Meanwhile, I don’t have the nerve for either.


Sure, if a tendon ruptures it’s usually repairable… until the peroneal retracts halfway up the leg and you’re chasing it proximally in the OR. Plantar plate straight forward until you get smacked with a lawsuit.

So what’s everyone comfortable injecting? Any locations you absolutely avoid? How often are you hitting the plantar fascia ? Or are some of you out there with significantly bigger balls.
 
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My mistress advises me that my balls are perfectly normal shaped. However, I will inject the 2nd mtpj whenever the pain is really bad. You figure if there is some truly limiting pain, the plantar plate is on its way to a tear/rupture and we know these don't really heal with conservative modalities. Might as well keep the pt comfortable.

As an aside, my residency director liked to do percutaneous extensor tenotomies in office for 2nd met pain, and I have carried on his tradition with decent success.

I'm with you on not injecting Achilles, PT, or peroneal tendons.
 
Here's a great rule of thumb: dont inject anything that you arent comfortable fixing. The longer I'm at it the lower my threshold for an injection goes. No, you should not inject anyone and anything, but I've found that when patients are asking for it its a lot easier to say yes then take the time to explain xyz. I think smart no-go injections are watershed achilles, CIAT and PT/AT but thats about it. Ive yet to be burned by a peroneal sheath injection and I do them frequently. Legitimately dont think I've ever seen a peroneal rupture outside of a trauma, cavovarus or os peroneum syndrome scenario. Even pre-achilles bursal injections I do under fluoro. Heck most significantly arthritic joints or lesser MTP injections I just reschedule them for when i have fluoro time and line them up. Certainly do everything conservative/non-invasive for a 2nd mtpj first, but people that dont respond to that need surgery anyways so you might as well make them comfortable, just keep volume low 0.25 cc or less and do it accurately (fluoro) so you dont blow out the collaterals or an intact plantar plate. We've all fixed achilles, post tib and tibial ant injection ruptures from other people. . I do hundreds of PF injections a year like most of us and sure there have been occasional ruptures but you just boot them until its better and then they never get fasciitis again. Thats the magic of an iatrogenic EPF. Also tarsal tunnel injections are stupid just fix it.
 
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I inject the 2nd MPJ. TFPishly I do have them tape it. I'm pretty anti-arts and crafts. Like orthotic >>> every form of padding/felt/tape/crap that people put on the plantar fascia. I tell patients - it seems like a lot of work. People routinely come back taped and I don't sell tape so they are doing this on their own and in general most describe it positively

I don't inject the Achilles, PTT, or peroneals. However, I had a lady awhile back with unbearable 5th metatarsal base insertional pain which is one of my least favorite things in the world and she ultimately responded to a small steroid injection. I've done one since, but haven't had the patient come back yet. That's technically 2 peroneal injections in 7 years.
 
As an aside, my residency director liked to do percutaneous extensor tenotomies in office for 2nd met pain, and I have carried on his tradition with decent success.
Interested in this. What's your indication? Strictly for a 2nd HT? Can't imagine that would do much for any other underlying cause without causing additional problems
 
Wherever a patient points with pain is where I stick the steroid injection. If they use their whole hand to describe pain everywhere then I dismiss them and refer to pain management.
 
Interested in this. What's your indication? Strictly for a 2nd HT? Can't imagine that would do much for any other underlying cause without causing additional problems
Think about this intuitively. Plantar plate injuries propagate because of dorsal translation of 2nd toe. Noninvasive modalities to address this all revolve around taping/splinting the 2nd toe towards the ground. If we transect the EDL tendon, we remove some of that dorsal translation force. You probably don't correct the deformity, but it reduces the plantar pain the pt is having, and that's all a lot of people really want.

If it doesn't work: you end up doing the direct surgical repair that you would have done no matter what, during which you probably would have done an EDL release/lengthening anyway.

If it does work: 🍻
 
I’ll inject anything that the patient says hurts. Not necessarily as first line treatment. May put them in a boot or limit their activity after an Achilles injection, for example, but they know there is a rupture risk and I can fix it if it happened. Only thing I’ve seen that I suspect was secondary to my injection was one plantar plate and one plantar fascia rupture. No big deal.

Anecdotally, I had an ortho in college who didn’t hesitate to throw steroid at the base of my thumb for a suspected sprain so that I could play in a game that coming Saturday.
 
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Rant: This is so frustrating.

I have multiple patients whose diabetes is managed by nurse practitioners, and they desperately need diabetic shoes for offloading. Yet Medicare requires a “Certifying Physician” form to be signed by an MD or DO before the shoes can be covered.

It seems like an unnecessary barrier for patients who are already receiving appropriate diabetic care. Has anyone found a good workaround or pathway in these situations?

I feel like I’m rat maze.
 
Really? Desperately?

Anyway there's usually a MD/DO they collaborate with somewhere who can sign your notes
I’m the one who needs the shoes desperately. If I don’t adequately offload this patient, I’m going to be debriding this wound forever, and I’d really like to avoid that.


The patient has a cavus foot type and is not a surgical candidate due to their medical history and social situation. They have chronic wounds beneath the bilateral first metatarsal heads, a prior toe amputation, and an additional stable midfoot wound.


What are your go-to offloading strategies in a patient like this? I’d appreciate any recommendations or pearls that have worked well for you.
 
I’m the one who needs the shoes desperately. If I don’t adequately offload this patient, I’m going to be debriding this wound forever, and I’d really like to avoid that.


The patient has a cavus foot type and is not a surgical candidate due to their medical history and social situation. They have chronic wounds beneath the bilateral first metatarsal heads, a prior toe amputation, and an additional stable midfoot wound.


What are your go-to offloading strategies in a patient like this? I’d appreciate any recommendations or pearls that have worked well for you.

Every 10 days I see the patient the offloading gets better and better as each graft layer gets thicker and thicker. Sometimes excessive pus builds up resulting in BKA though.
 
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I’m the one who needs the shoes desperately. If I don’t adequately offload this patient, I’m going to be debriding this wound forever, and I’d really like to avoid that.


The patient has a cavus foot type and is not a surgical candidate due to their medical history and social situation. They have chronic wounds beneath the bilateral first metatarsal heads, a prior toe amputation, and an additional stable midfoot wound.


What are your go-to offloading strategies in a patient like this? I’d appreciate any recommendations or pearls that have worked well for you.
 
I’d argue even if you feel like you can’t do surgery you can still do a tenotomy of the longus somehow. Local block only maybe. I’m not really a cowboy but you have to realize the only way to heal wounds sometimes is surgery. And if they already had amps they’re high risk. You have to explain that to the patient. Usually by about the 10th week of debriding with no progress they get it.
 
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What are your go-to offloading strategies in a patient like this? I’d appreciate any recommendations or pearls that have worked well for you.
Ok so a lot of this is going through the motions so it looks on paper like I've done all the conservative treatments that any plaintiff's expert would testify that should have been tried before doing the thing that will actually heal the patient. You start with a surgical shoe or a diabetic shoe. Next, you get some white plastizote from you preferred vendor, I use JMS Plastics. No idea what it's actually called, all I know is it's plastizote and it's white. For met head offloading, you cutout a metatarsal pad with a cutout around the are of ulceration. For pts with a severe forefoot varus, you can get something higher durometer like nickelplast, glue it to the forefoot, and mill it so it's a wedge-shaped forefoot post and glue it to the insole or the surgical shoe to achieve some forefoot offloading. If you don't have a orthotics mill, you're not a TFP and you don't belong in this thread.

For a fixative, TFPs have traditionally used Barge Rubber Cement. This product is a pain in the 🍑. My now retired partner would apply it to a piece of plastizote and cook it for 2 min in a convection oven so it binds to the plastizote and the plastizote becomes more malleable to the shape of the insole before fixating. As a board-certified foot and ankle surgeon, I do not have time for this nonsense, so I use instead 3M Industrial Strength Spray Adhesive to affix my plastizote. I then clamp it to the insert/surgical shoe using a vice grip. Let it sit for 10 min, see another pt or do some FMLA forms, then come back and check on your work. It's faster and the fumes from the spray adhesive help you forget the life choices you have made that lead up to your use of this therapeutic intervention. Also 3M is a solid company to invest in, they make real products, there's little volatility and they pay nice dividends.

Finally, @dtrack22 commented that Medicare should stop paying for shoes altogether and focus on custom molded insoles. To that, I wanted to respond with some reimbursement info. I randomly selected a patient from earlier this year and here's the EOB info. Not Medicare but the fee schedule is close.
For a diabetic shoe (not custom molded) A5500, I get $80 per shoe, so $160 total. Anodyne charged us $66 for the shoes
For the custom molded insoles A5513, I got $48 per insole or $145 total for 3 of them. Anodyne charged us $48. Normally we would bill for 6 inserts since it's 3 pair per foot, but this pt was s/p TMA so instead we got...
an amputation filler L5000 which reimbursed $542.58. Anodyne charged us $159 for that.

So it's $575 profit and we rinse and repeat annually for this patient. If we billed only the inserts and not the shoes, the profit margin actually improves. But let's be real, patients don't give a damn about the inserts, they just want the free shoes. So if you ban the shoes then patients lose all interest in this therapeutic modality. I don't know/care what the solution is. As I've written before, the powers that be want pts to be in these shoes, the patients want to have em, the government wants to pay for em, and I get a payout for basically facilitating a retail transaction. I'm adhering to the standard of care and making money in the process so idgaf what else.

Lastly, if you actually want to offload your patients and heal their ulcers, consider MIS floating metatarsal osteotomies. Because this is the TFP thread, I am not qualified to elaborate further.
 
My mistress advises me that my balls are perfectly normal shaped. However, I will inject the 2nd mtpj whenever the pain is really bad. You figure if there is some truly limiting pain, the plantar plate is on its way to a tear/rupture and we know these don't really heal with conservative modalities. Might as well keep the pt comfortable.

As an aside, my residency director liked to do percutaneous extensor tenotomies in office for 2nd met pain, and I have carried on his tradition with decent success.

I'm with you on not injecting Achilles, PT, or peroneal tendons.
Is there any particular condition you'd do it for? Hyper dorsiflexed hammertoe or something
 
Hyper dorsiflexed hammertoe or something
Yes.

But most times you won't get it straight. EDL tenotomies are for pts with low-grade plantar plate tears that are a source of 2nd met head pain. If it's extremely dorsiflexed and/or crossing over the big toe, the plantar plate is already ruptured. A fully ruptured plantar plate is usually not painful to the pt and more of an annoyance because the toe bunches up in in their socks and shoes. I'll defer to those who do more surgery than I do about how to straighten this out...
 
Way late to this, but I don't inject 2nd MPJ or Achilles. We all know where that road ends.
(I will inject 2nd MPJ if they already have their Weil, bunion + Weils, forefoot slam, etc scheduled)

Basically anything else is ok in combo with immobilize...
I've fixed tib ant, peroneals, PT that were injected many times by other pods... then ruptured. Those are sad, esp the TA tendons. PT is not fun (you have to figure out whether to repair it or do full flatfoot recon).

I usually do CAM boot - wrap at minimum - in combo with my PO steroid packs for tendon overuse/overtraining/strain... always immobilize with tendon steroid injects.
 
Yes stop injecting tendons. Are you guys that good you can tell you’re in the peroneal sheath? Please. Under ultrasound and you do a ton maybe I can see a peroneal injection, but definitely don’t do the Achilles. Stop that nonsense. So many other treatments for that. Boot, prednisone taper, PT, all before surgery.. injections are not good conservative treatment for the Achilles.
 
TFP question on steroid injections:

What are your absolute “do not inject” locations?

For me it’s:
  • Achilles
  • PTT
  • Peroneals
  • 2nd MPJ
During training I worked with one well-known “foot and ankle surgeon” aka podiatrist who routinely injected the peroneals for diagnostic purposes. Now I’m with another who doesn’t hesitate to inject the 2nd MPJ.

Meanwhile, I don’t have the nerve for either.


Sure, if a tendon ruptures it’s usually repairable… until the peroneal retracts halfway up the leg and you’re chasing it proximally in the OR. Plantar plate straight forward until you get smacked with a lawsuit.

So what’s everyone comfortable injecting? Any locations you absolutely avoid? How often are you hitting the plantar fascia ? Or are some of you out there with significantly bigger balls.
The peroneal thing is very TFP for injections. People will blind inject and say theyre just injecting the sheath of the tendon. Nobody can eyeball a .00001mm space. And no you’re not seeing it on an ultrasound either

I don’t f with tendon injects. At best I’ll inject the 1st TMTJ for pain and hope it doesn’t pop the TA.

Whenever I hear a patient got an Achilles steroid injection from “their last doctor” honestly in my mind it’s borderline malpractice
 
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I have a patient who is wanting to go to the OR for a matrixectomy that had NOT failed prior in office treatment. I feel like I’m lala land. Anyone taking ppl in for this? I low key want to say no.
 
I have a patient who is wanting to go to the OR for a matrixectomy that had NOT failed prior in office treatment. I feel like I’m lala land. Anyone taking ppl in for this? I low key want to say no.
Done it for minors cause of anxiety.

Have your insurance people check prior auths etc.
If they need anesthesia get a PCP pre-op and go for it.
 
I have a patient who is wanting to go to the OR for a matrixectomy that had NOT failed prior in office treatment. I feel like I’m lala land. Anyone taking ppl in for this? I low key want to say no.
Either way is acceptable usually if you tell the patient they’ll have to pay an anesthesiologist, the hospital, and you they do it in office
 
Think about this intuitively. Plantar plate injuries propagate because of dorsal translation of 2nd toe. Noninvasive modalities to address this all revolve around taping/splinting the 2nd toe towards the ground. If we transect the EDL tendon, we remove some of that dorsal translation force. You probably don't correct the deformity, but it reduces the plantar pain the pt is having, and that's all a lot of people really want.

If it doesn't work: you end up doing the direct surgical repair that you would have done no matter what, during which you probably would have done an EDL release/lengthening anyway.

If it does work: 🍻
I do flexors all the time...not sure why I don't like extensor
 
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I have a patient who is wanting to go to the OR for a matrixectomy that had NOT failed prior in office treatment. I feel like I’m lala land. Anyone taking ppl in for this? I low key want to say no.
Pts like this need to put on their big boy/big girl pants. They can come in with their emotional support animal and I'll give them a roll of coban or something similar to bite down on. Otherwise I tell them I don't have enough OR block time but there's a Fellowship Trained Foot and Ankle Surgeon in town with plenty of block time who can do it.

If it's a child, I direct the patient's parents to this website to find some unfortunate soul who gets to waste their time removing a nail under sedation anesthesia.
 
I have a patient who is wanting to go to the OR for a matrixectomy that had NOT failed prior in office treatment. I feel like I’m lala land. Anyone taking ppl in for this? I low key want to say no.

I’ve done it on a couple of occasions for some severely autistic kids that needed the procedure done and clearly weren’t going to let me numb them up in clinic. I’m employed so I get paid to do it. But yeah, maybe twice in the last 10 years? Never did it in PP.
 
What are you doing if patient has only a PA or NP managing diabetes and needs a Statement of Certifying Physician form only an MD or DO can sign? Need AFO(s). This is become a huge headache.
 
What are you doing if patient has only a PA or NP managing diabetes and needs a Statement of Certifying Physician form only an MD or DO can sign? Need AFO(s). This is become a huge headache.
All midlevels practice in under a doc. The doc in their group can sign off on it.
The PAs have to be under a doc (legally), and the NPs usually do need oversight - and still will have oversight if they have half a brain (for liability). 98% of them will.

If anyone sees the rare NPs practicing alone (group/solo without MD/DO backup), I'd highly discourage that if they have any chronic conditions (which they do, if they need sign-off DME from us). Even if the person has few/no current health issues, docs "providers" see what they know, and a less skilled provider will miss things or not even know what to look for and screen for. It's technically allowed in about half the US states for NPs to practice without oversight, but very few do (again, liability... and ethics). The American public will get whatever standard and competency of care that they'll settle for. If they want residency/fellowship trained MDs, they get that... if they want a two year onling grad program, they can also get that. As a patient "consumer," you get what you allow. While that's sad, it's just basic economics.
 
Haven’t done glasses/contacts in years, but I can throw some reasonable TFO knowledge out in return.

So I've been seeing podcasters wear orange tinted glasses. Google Gemini tells me it's to block out blue light and enhance contrast perception but also promote feelings of well being and social harmony. What is your professional opinion on these assertions?
 
I have a young patient with severe onychotillomania who is otherwise medically healthy. Behavioral Health referred them to me for removal of all 10 toenails. The patient has already picked off nearly the entire nail plate on all digits.

I genuinely don’t want to touch this with a 10 foot pole.

What would you do?
Punt
 
Yep. Send it to the expert with O.

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So I've been seeing podcasters wear orange tinted glasses. Google Gemini tells me it's to block out blue light and enhance contrast perception but also promote feelings of well being and social harmony. What is your professional opinion on these assertions?
That trend popped up after I stopped doing any regular glasses related stuff, but to my knowledge there’s F all evidence it does anything except maybe help a little with sleep. Sadly our academy had the audacity to kneecap the TFOs (link).

I’m still willing to sell you my proprietary energy crystal glasses at a discount price, of course. Improves your chakras and overall vibe.
 
That trend popped up after I stopped doing any regular glasses related stuff, but to my knowledge there’s F all evidence it does anything except maybe help a little with sleep. Sadly our academy had the audacity to kneecap the TFOs (link).

I’m still willing to sell you my proprietary energy crystal glasses at a discount price, of course. Improves your chakras and overall vibe.
As a thank you from the podiatry forum we would like to offer you a sustainably sourced grounding mat and if you ...purchase it today I'll throw in some foot detox pads that will literally suck the heavy metals and toxins out of your body for a mere $49.97. My associate thinks I'm crazy for giving you such a great deal.
 
I’m surprised to learn the optometry academy also says it’s basically useless. They love a nice upsell and dabble in pseudoscience like vision therapy.

Try mentioning the podeyetry connection and maybe you’ll get the professional deal on those $500+ frames and your contacts.
 
Legitimately wondering, since residency I've spent easily half my waking hours staring at computer screens with no signs of stopping, and 6s are starting to look like 8s. Orange tinted glasses are not prohibitively expensive. But deep down I think this is just the fashion statement of the moment, like wearing white sneakers with a suit was in 2023
 
I’m surprised to learn the optometry academy also says it’s basically useless. They love a nice upsell and dabble in pseudoscience like vision therapy.

Try mentioning the podeyetry connection and maybe you’ll get the professional deal on those $500+ frames and your contacts.
Well look at this - an MD punching down on a different degree that treats the same body part. 😉

In other news - I did an eye exam the other day. Patient's eyes followed my finger just fine.