TFP Thread

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ok what's everyone's thoughts on needling for treatment for plantar warts? essentially you numb up the wart and stab it a ton of times with a needle and it works really well... supposedly. this is called faulkner's treatment or faulknor seen it spelled either way
The problem is that you presumably have to numb the wart to do this. There are studies out there where they needle in 5-FU / TCA etc while doing what you describe.

Here's my battle. The studies say TCA is fairly effective. My experience is less so. There was an Indian Dermatology Journal a few years ago that claimed a retinoid topical that is OTC in the states was 100% effective. I never saw a person resolve with it. So - my experience is that therapies appears to be less effective than the journals that write about them describe them to be. You can try any therapy you desire but your mileage may vary. People on here will claim they use x, y, z, and that its amazing but the level of success shared by people on here is often greater than what journals say and I already think the journals are lying.
 
The problem is that you presumably have to numb the wart to do this. There are studies out there where they needle in 5-FU / TCA etc while doing what you describe.

Here's my battle. The studies say TCA is fairly effective. My experience is less so. There was an Indian Dermatology Journal a few years ago that claimed a retinoid topical that is OTC in the states was 100% effective. I never saw a person resolve with it. So - my experience is that therapies appears to be less effective than the journals that write about them describe them to be. You can try any therapy you desire but your mileage may vary. People on here will claim they use x, y, z, and that its amazing but the level of success shared by people on here is often greater than what journals say and I already think the journals are lying.
I feel like i've seen more plantar warts in my young career than maybe any podiatrist. idk why. it's so common where i practice. i do see a ton of peds.

my conclusion is every person responds differently. i've tried everything.

i've had aldara cream not do anything for people then i had some people where it was cured overnight
same with 5-fu. i use this compounded with saliclyic acid as my go to.
tca has never done anything for me. i legit think the studies are lying.
catharone just destroys everything. so therefore it is effective.
silver nitrate i do in office because i find it easy to buy/use.
cyrotherapy i just don't like. never felt comfortable deciding how long to hold it on exactly and honestly didn't find it that effective.

If there was a great cure for these the world would know probably. i do get patients who get mad it's not cured immediately though. might start cutting out more in office but i need lido with epi. maybe the scar thing is overblown? who knows. feel like a patient would hate me if they develop a painful plantar scar though. i've cut out a lot and never had that develop but meh patients do get annoyed with a hole in their foot wish I could find a better quick cure than surgical excision
 
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ok what's everyone's thoughts on needling for treatment for plantar warts? essentially you numb up the wart and stab it a ton of times with a needle and it works really well... supposedly. this is called faulkner's treatment or faulknor seen it spelled either way
Several years ago (like 5+) I had a younger patient with ~20+ warts on each foot.

I did reverse innoculation - Numb up a single (juicy looking) wart. Use a 2mm punch biopsy. Pull the biopsy plug out. Reverse it so epithelial side is now embeded deep in fat. Steristrip over top.

Robust pain response. Patients parents were calling reporting severe pain. But within a month every wart was gone.

Havent done it again since but it was my only option at the time and it worked.

Most TFP thing ive ever done.

Fluorouracil is my goto for warts. Works incredibly well. No pain. But not sure it would work when both feet are near 100% wart.
 
Make sure to know your new plantar fasciitis codes starting tomorrow, TFPs...

M67.A01: Plantar fasciitis, right foot
M67.A02: Plantar fasciitis, left foot
NEW PLANTAR FASCIITIS CODES JUST DROPPED

party cat GIF
 
anyone else just really hate when a chemo ingrown nail problem or renal transplant nail problem comes into their office? or severe PAD here's an infected ingrown problem. might be my least favorite patient ever along with the plantar hallux wounds
 
anyone else just really hate when a chemo ingrown nail problem or renal transplant nail problem comes into their office? or severe PAD here's an infected ingrown problem. might be my least favorite patient ever along with the plantar hallux wounds
The PAD one give antibiotics and send to vascular for clearance. The others explain that the chemo or transplant might (probably )slow healing and do they want it or not
 
The others explain that the chemo or transplant might (probably )slow healing and do they want it or not
or just refuse if it's not medically necessary (infected) and never use phenol for these. I've had my fair share of really sick patients with nail problems that I refuse to do anything for at this point. I've had so many patients try to talk me into stuff... they can go elsewhere.
 
Let's say you are doing a nail avulsion and a patient freaks out and you turn it into a "slant back" procedure. This is after you've used as much local anesthesia as reasonable for a toe and it's just a mental thing for the patient essentially.

what do you bill for this? just a 99203?
 
Let's say you are doing a nail avulsion and a patient freaks out and you turn it into a "slant back" procedure. This is after you've used as much local anesthesia as reasonable for a toe and it's just a mental thing for the patient essentially.

what do you bill for this? just a 99203?
There's technically a 53 modifier. I've never used it and its unclear to me that the event you describe fits the modifier.
 
Regarding Qutenza, I have tried it on about 15 patients that I can think of who had failed other therapies and were not wanting to go down the route of peripheral nerve stimulation. This was all done over the past ~2 years.

It has not worked for everyone. For most though they have at least seen some improvement usually in combination with Lyrica or Gabapentin. I had a couple patients that they got basically complete relief. I’d say 12/15 are seeing improvement, usually after the 2nd or 3rd application. The others likely we will discontinue if they did not see any improvement by next visit.

So I’ve had some pretty decent success with it so far. My n is pretty low though so time will tell.
 
so back to ingrowns.

we've all had patients who you know they're numb but they say it's painful. i think it's a fine line from getting the procedure done vs actually traumatizing a patient. how do you guys balance this? nothing would suck worse than a review that you were in pain but a doctor kept going, etc. always let the patient know pressure is normal.

but for example i had a patient that i used 5cc and even the cotton tip applicator was painful. does it make sense? no. I always feel like it's pressure not pain too if I reinject and the injection isn't painful at all.

I also explain it as infection can make the numbing not as effective but also some people need more local.

thoughts? I feel like some of these people/kids need to just be done in the OR as much as I hate it though. it can be traumatizing for a doctor just as much as a patient if they're flipping out and it's not a good look for the rest of the waiting room.
 
so back to ingrowns.

we've all had patients who you know they're numb but they say it's painful. i think it's a fine line from getting the procedure done vs actually traumatizing a patient. how do you guys balance this? nothing would suck worse than a review that you were in pain but a doctor kept going, etc. always let the patient know pressure is normal.

but for example i had a patient that i used 5cc and even the cotton tip applicator was painful. does it make sense? no. I always feel like it's pressure not pain too if I reinject and the injection isn't painful at all.

I also explain it as infection can make the numbing not as effective but also some people need more local.

thoughts? I feel like some of these people/kids need to just be done in the OR as much as I hate it though. it can be traumatizing for a doctor just as much as a patient if they're flipping out and it's not a good look for the rest of the waiting room.
I start by injecting some variation of up to 5cc of 0.5% marcaine and 2% lidocaine. If they aren't numb - I give up to 3cc of 2% lidocaine extra. I used to add marcaine as my add on, but it never did anything. Switching from marcaine to lidocaine for the additional block made a big difference for me. I also block all 4 sides of the toe ie. I add the bottom which I don't usually start with or include if the patient is numb from the get go. I also am doing a much more limited dissection that I did in training. I watch other people's dissections and they appear extensive and brutal ie. passing instruments down the border of the toe. I free up the proximal corner gently. I free up the distal corner only enough to make a small cut with the English anvil. Then I got straight to blade. No bluntly passing instruments all the way down the side. Last of all, the most "painful" place is usually some deeply ingrown distal corner where the nail dug a hole. So if they can't tolerate that being touched I just cheat around it rather than starting there.

One of the problems with this forum is everyone claims to have some amazing technique and to never experience problems. I in the past semi-regularly had people who had difficulty getting numb. I really don't anymore. Maybe something of the above works. Maybe I just don't know what I'm doing right, but its working.
 
One of the problems with this forum is everyone claims to have some amazing technique and to never experience problems. I in the past semi-regularly had people who had difficulty getting numb. I really don't anymore. Maybe something of the above works. Maybe I just don't know what I'm doing right, but its working.
Who knows. I feel like that's a lot of local that you use. When I go to reinject The thing I don't understand is if you don't feel the injection at all how do you feel pain of the procedure? it's almost certainly pressure if its an adequate amount
 
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Who knows. I feel like that's a lot of local that you use. When I go to reinject The thing I don't understand is if you don't feel the injection at all how do you feel pain of the procedure?
I 100% feel you - the site of the infection is somehow sensitized and yet its using the same nerves that don't feel the injection.

As far volume - again, everyone on here reads what others are doing and thinks its insane. You were presumably told by someone that you could choke or kill a toe by putting in too much local. I don't know what the maximum local is, but in healthy adults I've gone up to 8mL. Will it blow up in my face someday - maybe.
 
As far volume - again, everyone on here reads what others are doing and thinks its insane. You were presumably told by someone that you could choke or kill a toe by putting in too much local. I don't know what the maximum local is, but in healthy adults I've gone up to 8mL. Will it blow up in my face someday - maybe.
I remember maybe my first week of practicing. I did 9cc on a toe lmao. Obviously way too much. I'd go to do the proceudre and they'd cry in pain, so i'd give more and I think I reinjected twice. The patient still said they felt pain when I did the procedure even after all that local.

Afterwards I was like wow that was ridiculous I'm never doing that much again because like you said there's a worry of killing the toe. Then I went the next three years of my practice using 3.5cc and occasionally going up to 5cc. Really after 5cc I don't want to give more. I feel like at that point it's potentially on the patient's anxiety or mistake of pressure for pain (maybe I'm wrong that's why i'm in the TFP Thread).

I also don't do a full H block. I just block the side that the procedure is on if it's on one side. Essentially I've learned just block the dorsal and plantar nerve and then I give a little extra superficial across the whole toe. In an especially difficult patient I will give a plantar block but essentially this is always accomplished going dorsal to plantar when I inject and they almost never feel that injection.

I use 2% lido mixed with 0.5% marcaine.

Maybe I'll at baseline do 4-5cc instead of 3.5 going forward. Your post made me think maybe just give more.
 
Let's say you are doing a nail avulsion and a patient freaks out and you turn it into a "slant back" procedure. This is after you've used as much local anesthesia as reasonable for a toe and it's just a mental thing for the patient essentially.

what do you bill for this? just a 99203?
so back to ingrowns.

we've all had patients who you know they're numb but they say it's painful. i think it's a fine line from getting the procedure done vs actually traumatizing a patient. how do you guys balance this? nothing would suck worse than a review that you were in pain but a doctor kept going, etc. always let the patient know pressure is normal.

but for example i had a patient that i used 5cc and even the cotton tip applicator was painful. does it make sense? no. I always feel like it's pressure not pain too if I reinject and the injection isn't painful at all.

I also explain it as infection can make the numbing not as effective but also some people need more local.

thoughts? I feel like some of these people/kids need to just be done in the OR as much as I hate it though. it can be traumatizing for a doctor just as much as a patient if they're flipping out and it's not a good look for the rest of the waiting room.


In your scenario I'd probably just bill for the office visit but what I'm reading here is that there's room for improvement in helping your patient mitigate their fear and anxiety better. Some things I do for those patients who need it:
  • Lay the chair back in Trendelenburg before you even start
  • Give them a thick hugger pillow and tell them to give it a bear hug. The hugging comforts them and the pillow blocks their view of you and whatever you're doing
  • I have a Dyson air cleaner in the room that I'll aim towards them to gently blow air their direction
  • If they are someone who really freaks out then prescribe a little Xanax for them to take before the procedure at a later date
As far as the local goes, I block the entire toe (all the way around the circumference) with 0.5% Bupivacaine. The Lido is unnecessary.

TFP over and out.
 
  • Lay the chair back in Trendelenburg before you even start
  • Give them a thick hugger pillow and tell them to give it a bear hug. The hugging comforts them and the pillow blocks their view of you and whatever you're doing
  • I have a Dyson air cleaner in the room that I'll aim towards them to gently blow air their direction
  • If they are someone who really freaks out then prescribe a little Xanax for them to take before the procedure at a later date
I think it's cool to see what everyone is doing for patients to calm them down. I do the laying the chair down thing, give them a stress ball, try to get them focused on breathing/other things.
 
Here's a mind game I play with patients. After I explain to patients what a matrixectomy is, etc, I tell them, "To do this, I need to place an injection around your toe. Is that ok?" Obviously, they say yes. But because of that, everything that happens next is because they told me to do it. I have no idea if there's any real basis in human psychology for this, but I think that tiny interaction sort of steels their mind for the ordeal of the injection (which really is over in <10 sec anyway).

When that doesn't work, when you have an uncooperative or hysterical patient, you have to be a bit of a sociopath. Here's the positioning.
-Exam chair reclined all the way. Parent/caregiver leaning over the torso, as necessary.
-Doctor seated aside the exam chair, ipsilateral to the problem toe, back to the pt, looking down on the foot.
-Lean aside the leg, arm over the knee, to restrain the knee.
-Non-dominant hand holds the foot firmly in maximum plantarflexion and supination. As we know, this is an unstable position for the ankle, and if the patient attempts to withdraw their leg, they will stress the lateral colateral ligaments self-inflicting pain on themselves.
-Inject. They'll twitch their hallux but you can hold your target injection sites at the MTPJ steady.
-As the toe goes numb, pt regains their sanity. If not, be prepared to repeat this positioning when doing the matrixectomy.

Using this technique, I haven't taken an ingrown to the OR since 2019, and never will again. If the parent finds this approach barbaric, remind them of the hospital copays and time off required of them if the pt is to undergo sedation anesthesia.
 
Using this technique, I haven't taken an ingrown to the OR since 2019, and never will again. If the parent finds this approach barbaric, remind them of the hospital copays and time off required of them if the pt is to undergo sedation anesthesia.
I mean some people need to go to the OR for this. It sounds good in theory what you’re saying until you meet “that” patient.

Going to the OR is likely better than traumatizing a kid/patient. Although it sucks because the hospital hates doing this there and yeah which hospital has ingrown nail kits. None. Essentially I’ve never done one in the OR but if I did I’m guessing I’d bring my office packs to the hospital (is that even allowed?)

This doesn’t need to be a sterile procedure so who cares. But I guess it depends on your hospital/surgery center policies
 
Here's a mind game I play with patients. After I explain to patients what a matrixectomy is, etc, I tell them, "To do this, I need to place an injection around your toe. Is that ok?" Obviously, they say yes. But because of that, everything that happens next is because they told me to do it. I have no idea if there's any real basis in human psychology for this, but I think that tiny interaction sort of steels their mind for the ordeal of the injection (which really is over in <10 sec anyway).

When that doesn't work, when you have an uncooperative or hysterical patient, you have to be a bit of a sociopath. Here's the positioning.
-Exam chair reclined all the way. Parent/caregiver leaning over the torso, as necessary.
-Doctor seated aside the exam chair, ipsilateral to the problem toe, back to the pt, looking down on the foot.
-Lean aside the leg, arm over the knee, to restrain the knee.
-Non-dominant hand holds the foot firmly in maximum plantarflexion and supination. As we know, this is an unstable position for the ankle, and if the patient attempts to withdraw their leg, they will stress the lateral colateral ligaments self-inflicting pain on themselves.
-Inject. They'll twitch their hallux but you can hold your target injection sites at the MTPJ steady.
-As the toe goes numb, pt regains their sanity. If not, be prepared to repeat this positioning when doing the matrixectomy.

Using this technique, I haven't taken an ingrown to the OR since 2019, and never will again. If the parent finds this approach barbaric, remind them of the hospital copays and time off required of them if the pt is to undergo sedation anesthesia.
I like the jujitsu ankle lock approach! I might have to try it. Rear naked choke might also work…