The “A Vulnerable Risk” blog editorial

[Therapist4Chnge]

Wright state or the Institute? Because the Institute historically had terrible outcome metrics.

Wright State is pretty good, as the last I checked they do real research, match well, etc. The Wright Institute seems to function much more like an analytic training program from 50+ yrs ago. Very light on research, attracts older students (often already practicing as a mid level), very poor match rates.

Match %’s are much different now that there are many more spots, as compared to 10-15yrs ago when some of us went through and <60% of total APPIC sites were APA-acred. The vast majority of programs now have high match rates (and most were still high during the match crisis), so now looking at EPPP pass rates and types of jobs graduates take seems to be better indicators.

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[WisNeuro]

Match %’s are much different now that there are many more spots, as compared to 10-15yrs ago when some of us went through and <60% of total APPIC sites were APA-acred. The vast majority of programs now have high match rates (and most were still high during the match crisis), so now looking at EPPP pass rates and types of jobs graduates take seems to be better indicators.

Yeah, I don't look at match rates in the past several years as a reliable indicator anymore. If you don't match nowadays, your application is simply terrible, or you applied to terrible fits, very hard not to match. Good thing we fixed that manufactured "internship crisis" to allow terrible students easier access to a saturated field.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Here is Azusa

Doctor of Psychology (Psy.D.) in Clinical Psychology < Azusa Pacific University

catalog.apu.edu

So faculty are basically doing an ad-hoc assessment of students' mental health to determine if said students "require" professional mental health services. I'd say that fits the definition of "providing a psychological service" as it goes beyond just recommending seeking help and gets into specific prescription of frequency/intensity of therapy. These people are also responsible for teaching those students' classes and providing clinical supervision. How in the h*ll is that not a dual relationship?

 

[futureapppsy2]

While it seems to make sense that professors of clinical psychology would be better at identifying and providing support for student struggling with mental health related difficulties, does it actually make sense (i.e, is there empirical support for this position)?

I do research on psych grad students with disabilities--including mental health/psychiatric disabilities--and our data strongly suggests "no." Of course, there could be some response bias in there, but still... the data we have don't paint a great picture of how well this fields treats students with any type of disability.

 

[ClinicalABA]

... the data we have don't paint a great picture of how well this fields treats students with any type of disability.

Is it just this field, or have you done comparative analyses with other fields of graduate study? I'd off that the world in general doesn't do a great job with its treatment of people with a disability.

 

[Seven_Costanza]

Can you please post which APA-accredited programs require students to complete therapy? I would love to see this.

I do know someone who went to Wright Institute and was required to go to therapy. I also heard some stories from this person which consistent with the blog’s description of supervision.


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[futureapppsy2]

Is it just this field, or have you done comparative analyses with other fields of graduate study? I'd off that the world in general doesn't do a great job with its treatment of people with a disability.

Good question! In general, we do see more difficulty in this field because it involves a lot of co- and extra-curricular requirements that universities don't know how to accommodate. For example, university disability services offices typically know how to accommodate classroom work, writing, etc., pretty well and even lab work. They generally know nothing about how to accommodate, say, a WAIS administration or what accommodations might look like in a clinical setting and that causes a lot of issues, because programs say "we can't" without even trying much at all and disability services offices often just shrug their shoulders and go "okay, well, guess you can't" (even when the accommodation is fairly obvious, like, say, an FM system during group therapy for trainee with a hearing impairment).

 

[MCParent]

Here is Azusa

Doctor of Psychology (Psy.D.) in Clinical Psychology < Azusa Pacific University

catalog.apu.edu

It feels very predatory of these programs. First, they put you in a hole due to debt. Then they are not able to provide a high level of support due to cohort size. Now they make you pay extra money and find time to go to therapy, at your own cost - for a random number of hours in a year (about once a month during the academic year,. how will that help?) - without any evidence that it makes you a better clinician.

Are psycho-drama classes still a requirement in these places?

THIRTY hours? I don't remember the last time I saw anyone 30 times.

 

[PsyDr]

I do wonder sometimes if our field could do better in accepting the fullness of ourselves as human beings, versus just the public version. I also recognize, as wis has pointed out before, that our “field” is incredibly heterogenous and contains a multitude of cultures that fit different contexts. I appreciate the culture of ACT for this reason.

I highly disagree with the first opinion, and I highly agree with the second.

1) What someone does, so long as it doesn't affect their work performance, is a non-issue. Psychologists, like any other profession, should have the ability to keep their private lives private. What does matter is when they start telling others in a professional setting about their personal life. To some extent, we all do this. I believe we need more boundaries, and not less.

2) There is a clear record of many extraordinary psychologists behaving in ways that would never be tolerated in today's programs. While there are clearly differences that should not be accommodated, perhaps the field would benefit from different personalities.

 

[BorderlineQueen]

Yeah, I don't look at match rates in the past several years as a reliable indicator anymore. If you don't match nowadays, your application is simply terrible, or you applied to terrible fits, very hard not to match. Good thing we fixed that manufactured "internship crisis" to allow terrible students easier access to a saturated field.

G-d all of these forums on SDN are all so doom and gloom. Every forum Psychology, Medicine, Pharmacy, Optometry and Dentistry. It's a little sad.

 

[BorderlineQueen]

I highly disagree with the first opinion, and I highly agree with the second.

1) What someone does, so long as it doesn't affect their work performance, is a non-issue. Psychologists, like any other profession, should have the ability to keep their private lives private. What does matter is when they start telling others in a professional setting about their personal life. To some extent, we all do this. I believe we need more boundaries, and not less.

2) There is a clear record of many extraordinary psychologists behaving in ways that would never be tolerated in today's programs. While there are clearly differences that should not be accommodated, perhaps the field would benefit from different personalities.

I agree with the bolded. We need more people who are aggressive enough to protect our turf.People who will defend our scope and not just let masters people do assessments. Or better yet soon it might even be college grads wanting to do assessments. We need more people who will advocate against these diploma mill PsyDs. The MDs have been doing a better job being aggressive with turf wars. Think about it there is no evidence that RxP is dangerous or that unsupervised NP/PA are dangerous. Most supervision requirements for NP/PA are pretty lax anyway. But anytime a bill on RxP is brought up or unsupervised NP/PA the claims of "patient safety" are brought up. This is merely a claim to protect turf and a pretty excellent claim to protect turf. No senator will pass a bill on unsupervised NP/PA or RxP if claims of "patient safety" are brought up.

 

[msgeorgeeliot]

G-d all of these forums on SDN are all so doom and gloom. Every forum Psychology, Medicine, Pharmacy, Optometry and Dentistry. It's a little sad.

Welcome to the generalized nightmare that is graduate training in health services professions. The water is warm.

Edit: I say this as someone who has until recently provided cross-discipline training to the trainees of most of the professions that you cite. I’ve never seem so many dead eyes in my life. I think it’s not just because I’m a boring presenter.

Edit: I actually keep things pretty spicy in my presentations (#onbrand) but can only capture the attention of one-quarter at best.

 

[BorderlineQueen]

Welcome to the generalized nightmare that is graduate training in health services professions, the water is warm.

Edit: I say this as someone who has until recently provided cross-discipline training to the trainees of most of the professions that you cite. I’ve never seem so many dead eyes in my life. I think it’s not just because I’m a boring presenter.

Pharmacy is done for the market is over saturated the bls projects job growth is 0% and em employment change is -100. Pharmacists : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics They seem to be the worst off for now.

 

[Spydra]

While I do think that the student in the referenced blog should have made self care a priority as their life literally fell apart around them, I'm not so sure graduate school was the entire problem. Chances are this person functioned in a similar manner prior to that and others noticed something wasn't right, so intervention was needed way earlier. They mention having an eating disorder, but it isn't clear they sought treatment and if so who knows how good it actually was. Yes I see plenty of grad students exhausting themselves into early graves to prove who knows what to who knows whom, but I see far more undergrads doing this and then continuing on to grad school for more of the same. I imagine if I spent time with high schoolers I'd see more of it there. So the intervention to stop this is needed well before grad school if you ask me.

 

[Spydra]

I do research on psych grad students with disabilities--including mental health/psychiatric disabilities--and our data strongly suggests "no." Of course, there could be some response bias in there, but still... the data we have don't paint a great picture of how well this fields treats students with any type of disability.

I would like to know more about this. Are there any particular journal articles you'd suggest reading?

 

[msgeorgeeliot]

I agree with the bolded. We need more people who are aggressive enough to protect our turf.People who will defend our scope and not just let masters people do assessments. Or better yet soon it might even be college grads wanting to do assessments. We need more people who will advocate against these diploma mill PsyDs. The MDs have been doing a better job being aggressive with turf wars. Think about it there is no evidence that RxP is dangerous or that unsupervised NP/PA are dangerous. Most supervision requirements for NP/PA are pretty lax anyway. But anytime a bill on RxP is brought up or unsupervised NP/PA the claims of "patient safety" are brought up. This is merely a claim to protect turf and a pretty excellent claim to protect turf. No senator will pass a bill on unsupervised NP/PA or RxP if claims of "patient safety" are brought up.

This might be a better question for PM, @BorderlineQueen, but maybe others are also curious and want to be supportive. I appreciate your participation here and am also curious about your professional goals, as they seem to be cross-cutting across different disciplines. Are you planning to pursue psychology, or is this still an open question for you? Forgive me if I’ve missed info along the line in which you’ve already clarified this.

 

[msgeorgeeliot]

Another “professional school” nightmare, characterological experience, or typical story for this generation of psychology graduate students?

Thoughts? Comments?

pr0seandcons

Read all of the posts by pr0seandcons on A Vulnerable Risk

avulnerablerisk.wordpress.com

Thank you sincerely for opening up a great topic. I hope the thread is addressing (or starting to address?) what you hoped to discuss. Obviously on a public board a thread will often branch off in a variety of directions. If we’ve “lost the thread,” so to speak, I would like to more directly address what you hope to discuss.

 

[BorderlineQueen]

This might be a better question for PM, @BorderlineQueen, but maybe others are also curious and want to be supportive. I appreciate your participation here and am also curious about your professional goals, as they seem to be cross-cutting across different disciplines. Are you planning to pursue psychology, or is this still an open question for you? Forgive me if I’ve missed info along the line in which you’ve already clarified this.

I will PM you .

 

[Spydra]

We had this through our program via the state psych association. A few psychologists would offer free or sliding scale to current program students. They were outside of the uni, so they did not supervise or teach in the program. It was a way for state psych members to give back.

I can see how this would work well in a large city where it may not be easy to know every clinician. But for those of us attending schools in much smaller communities where the handful of clinicians know everyone I doubt students would utilize this. A similar discussion was had among students in my program about how much time we spend on trips home taking care of healthcare needs because we question the privacy in the small community our campus health coverage offers.

 

[msgeorgeeliot]

I can see how this would work well in a large city where it may not be easy to know every clinician. But for those of us attending schools in much smaller communities where the handful of clinicians know everyone I doubt students would utilize this. A similar discussion was had among students in my program about how much time we spend on trips home taking care of healthcare needs because we question the privacy in the small community our campus health coverage offers.

This times a million.

When I needed the aforementioned help on internship in a small town, I asked a trusted supervisor for a referral to a non-internship-affiliated psychologist. Such a person was not easy to find.

As I was leaving my first therapy appointment, I encountered that same supervisor’s BOSS in the waiting room.

Because it turns out we had the same therapist.

And this boss was the same supervisor who had recently opined to me in supervision, “really, who hasn’t had a penis flung in one’s face in the course of clinical work?”

Supervision the next week with said uber-supervisor was incredible.

Training in small towns is really something else.

 

[psych.meout]

This times a million.

When I needed the aforementioned help on internship in a small town, I asked a trusted supervisor for a referral to a non-internship-affiliated psychologist. Such a person was not easy to find.

As I was leaving my first therapy appointment, I encountered that same supervisor’s BOSS in the waiting room.

Because it turns out we had the same therapist.

And this boss was the same supervisor who had recently opined to me in supervision, “really, who hasn’t had a penis flung in one’s face in the course of clinical work?”

Supervision the next week with said uber-supervisor was incredible.

Training in small towns is really something else.

WTF?!?

 

[msgeorgeeliot]

WTF?!?

I would never make up this nightmare scenario that still haunts my dreams many years later.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Welcome to the generalized nightmare that is graduate training in health services professions. The water is warm.

Do you really believe that “nightmarish” is the modal experience of trainees? My experience is only with mental/behavioral health training (student in clinical Ph.D. Program; faculty at APA accredited internship; faculty in LMHC program and ABA masters program; practicum supervisor). I’d say that maybe 10% of students seemed to have a really bad experience related to social/political/philosophical nature of the training, and maybe another 10% struggled with the academic work/time management aspects. Of those, most were able to finish their training and become eligible to work in their chosen field. I’ve found the modal experience to be relatively neutral- basically that training can at times be lot of work, take a long time, and get int the way of doing more fun stuff, but overall interesting, fulfilling, and effective for leading to improvements in occupational standing and living standards of the trainees. I’m not sure this is different than other fields requiring advanced study, and may even be better than some (e.g. purely academic fields; arts and literature graduate training).

I will, however, opine that our filed does have the black eye of training programs that exist solely to separate the vulnerable and desperate form their money, surviving only because of a deeply flawed and abusive loan system. Questions, debates, comments, etc. about these programs seem come up often around here.

 

[WisNeuro]

G-d all of these forums on SDN are all so doom and gloom. Every forum Psychology, Medicine, Pharmacy, Optometry and Dentistry. It's a little sad.

Go ask MDs and PhDs what they want their children to go into career-wise. I have very few colleagues who want their children to go into healthcare.

 

[cara susanna]

I remember reading the optometry forum back when I was on internship. It is SUPER depressing. This board looks like flowers and sunshine compared to that.

 

[PsyDr]

G-d all of these forums on SDN are all so doom and gloom. Every forum Psychology, Medicine, Pharmacy, Optometry and Dentistry. It's a little sad.

Alternative viewpoint:

Those are dozens of very helpful data points that indicate what DOES NOT work. Anyone can learn from those. You don't even have to be the smartest person. You just have to have an honest self assessment about what unique inclinations you bring, and avoid the activities that others have shown to be associated with poor outcomes.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

As I was leaving my first therapy appointment, I encountered that same supervisor’s BOSS in the waiting room.

Because it turns out we had the same therapist.

Wow, this is a great scenario for an ethics course.

 

[jdawg2017]

I remember reading the optometry forum back when I was on internship. It is SUPER depressing. This board looks like flowers and sunshine compared to that.

Can confirm. My best friend from college is now (almost) an optometrist, and the training **** he experienced is frankly unfathomable and makes bad experiences in psychology sound like great support in comparison.

 

[msgeorgeeliot]

Do you really believe that “nightmarish” is the modal experience of trainees? My experience is only with mental/behavioral health training (student in clinical Ph.D. Program; faculty at APA accredited internship; faculty in LMHC program and ABA masters program; practicum supervisor). I’d say that maybe 10% of students seemed to have a really bad experience related to social/political/philosophical nature of the training, and maybe another 10% struggled with the academic work/time management aspects. Of those, most were able to finish their training and become eligible to work in their chosen field. I’ve found the modal experience to be relatively neutral- basically that training can at times be lot of work, take a long time, and get int the way of doing more fun stuff, but overall interesting, fulfilling, and effective for leading to improvements in occupational standing and living standards of the trainees. I’m not sure this is different than other fields requiring advanced study, and may even be better than some (e.g. purely academic fields; arts and literature graduate training).

I will, however, opine that our filed does have the black eye of training programs that exist solely to separate the vulnerable and desperate form their money, surviving only because of a deeply flawed and abusive loan system. Questions, debates, comments, etc. about these programs seem come up often around here.

My short and incomplete answer is “yes,” will fill in the blanks later.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

My short and incomplete answer is “yes,” will fill in the blanks later.

The problem is that this is all subjective. My experience and my perception is similar to @ClinicalABA but I have no idea what the more objective (or less subjective) answer is. This would be a very interesting topic to investigate and examine if there is a difference between types of programs, age, mental health history, personality, etc.

 

[WisNeuro]

The problem is that this is all subjective. My experience and my perception is similar to @ClinicalABA but I have no idea what the more objective (or less subjective) answer is. This would be a very interesting topic to investigate and examine if there is a difference between types of programs, age, mental health history, personality, etc.

I would agree. My program was pretty great. There was some variation in lab setting due to expected productivity, but most people seemed genuinely happy and supported.

 

[GradStudent2020]

My short and incomplete answer is “yes,” will fill in the blanks later.

There’s research that has indicated grad students (in general) have disproportionately high rates of mental illness and SI compared to the rest of the population. I know MANY colleagues that had terrible grad school experiences. Overall, I wouldn’t classify my own journey as nightmarish as a whole but there were definitely (Unnecessary) horrible experiences along the way.

 

[Ollie123]

Perspectives on graduate training are always so interesting to me. If I could keep my current salary/benefits and return to graduate school, I would without so much as a second thought. Especially as a senior student. Less pressure, less responsibility, less expectations. Was a pretty sweet deal. We certainly had some people in my program who struggled and a few who dropped out, but in the vast majority of cases this seemed to be student issues moreso than the program per se.

I do think a lot depends on the mentor and the student-mentor interaction. I had an incredibly hands-off mentor. It was difficult early on when I didn't know what I was doing. Being who I am, I just busted my ass and figured stuff out. By the end it was just me sitting around with oodles and oodles of data to play with (think multiple large-scale untouched NIH grants) - since no one else was going to write anything up, complete security and surrounded by people who want to talk theory/methodology all day. Living the dream (or at least my dream)...

Doesn't mean every day was great, there were certainly some rocky moments. Most weren't anyone's fault per se, just a conflation of challenging circumstances that I'm not sure could have been avoided. I worked hard, but a week's worth of grad student work would be about a day's work at the pace I have to keep up now.

I say this not to question anyone else's experience, but just to offer another perspective. I can't say for certain, but most of my grad school friends I keep in touch with have shared similar sentiments, even if not quite as extreme as my own. I don't know what the "right" answer is in these circumstances. Certainly programs vary widely in what the experience is like. Student personalities vary too. People thought I was crazy for who I put on my dissertation committee (basically all the harshest critics). They would rip any study you designed into pieces and reassemble it together, but it was never personal with them. I loved it, got to know them well and there was mutual respect once I started picking apart things they missed Some level of pressure is necessary for what should be high-level training, but what form that comes in is obviously up for debate.

 

[WisNeuro]

Perspectives on graduate training are always so interesting to me. If I could keep my current salary/benefits and return to graduate school, I would without so much as a second thought. Especially as a senior student. Less pressure, less responsibility, less expectations. Was a pretty sweet deal. We certainly had some people in my program who struggled and a few who dropped out, but in the vast majority of cases this seemed to be student issues moreso than the program per se.

I'd probably also do this if I could keep my salary/bennies. Grad school was a great mix of research and clinical for me. And a lot of intellectual debate and stimulation. Enough variability to keep things consistently interesting. I had a pretty good peer group around that time which also helped quite a bit.

 

[cara susanna]

I agree with Ollie. I had a blast in graduate school. There were some hard times, for sure, but overall I prefer it to having a real job. Lol.

 

[msgeorgeeliot]

Welcome to the generalized nightmare that is graduate training in health services professions. The water is warm.

Edit: I say this as someone who has until recently provided cross-discipline training to the trainees of most of the professions that you cite. I’ve never seem so many dead eyes in my life. I think it’s not just because I’m a boring presenter.

Edit: I actually keep things pretty spicy in my presentations (#onbrand) but can only capture the attention of one-quarter at best.

The problem is that this is all subjective. My experience and my perception is similar to @ClinicalABA but I have no idea what the more objective (or less subjective) answer is. This would be a very interesting topic to investigate and examine if there is a difference between types of programs, age, mental health history, personality, etc.

Hey. So I should clarify that my original statement was in direct reference to my experience of providing training (on stress management and other psych-relevant topics) to thousands of graduate students in other health services professions. My observation that the modal student/resident is miserable is subjective, for sure, though it seems to line up with other posters’ general observations of non-psych medical/adjacent training. I probably wouldn’t want my kid to pursue some of these healthcare professions either.

In terms of our field, I will join the chorus in stating that I had a good grad school experience on the whole. My clinical and research mentors were wonderful, I learned so much, and I made great friends. Like @GradStudent2020, I also had to navigate some profoundly sh*tty circumstances; some were grad student-specific factors, some were personal. In totality, I look back on grad school as a very mixed bag for which I am grateful. I’m happy to have a great degree that enables me to do some good in the world.

But would I do it again? I probably wouldn’t, quite honestly. This question has been an interesting topic of past threads on this board.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I would like to know more about this. Are there any particular journal articles you'd suggest reading?

Of course! I just submitted a manuscript on this this week, so here's a comprehensive, up-to-date list:

Empirical:

American Psychological Association (2009). Barriers to Students with Disabilities in Psychology Training. Office on Disability Issues. Retrieved from http://www.apa.org/pi/disability/dart/survey-results.pdf (not peer-reviewed, not specific to grad students or clinical/counseling/school psychology)

Andrews, E. E., & Lund, E. M. (2015). Disability in professional psychology training: Where are we? Training and Education in Professional Psychology, 9, 210-216.

Lund, E. M., Andrews, E. E., & Holt, J. M. (2014). How we treat our own: Characteristics and experiences of psychology trainees with disabilities. Rehabilitation Psychology, 54, 367-375.

Lund, E. M., Andrews, E. E., & Holt, J. M. (2016). A qualitative analysis of the reflections of professional psychology trainees with disabilities. Training and Education in Professional Psychology, 10, 206-213.

Lund, E. M., Andrews, E. E., Bouchard, L. M., & Holt, J. M. (in press). How did we help (or not)? A qualitative analysis of resources used by psychology trainees with disabilities. Training and Education in Professional Psychology. Advance online publication. DOI: 10.1037/tep0000270

Wilbur, R. C., Kuemmel, A. M., Lackner, R. J. (2019). Who’s on first? Supervising psychology trainees with disabilities and establishing accommodations. Training and Education in Professional Psychology, 13(2), 111-118. doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.1037/tep000023


Non-empirical:

Andrews, E.E., Forber-Pratt, A.J., Mona, L.R., Lund, E.M., Pilarski, C.R., & Balter, R. (2019). #SaytheWord: A disability culture commentary on the erasure of “disability.” Rehabilitation Psychology, 64, 111-118.

Andrews, E. E., Kuemmel, A., Williams, J. L., Pilarski, C., Dunn, M., & Lund, E. M. (2013). Providing culturally competent supervision to trainees with disabilities in rehabilitation settings. Rehabilitation Psychology, 58, 233-244.

Daughtry, D., Gibson, J., & Abels, A. (2009). Mentoring students and professionals with disabilities. Professional Psychology: Research and Practice, 40(2), 201-265.

Olkin, R. (2010). The three R’s of supervising graduate psychology students with disabilities: Reading, writing and reasonable accommodations. Women & Therapy, 33, 73-78

Pearlstein, J. G., & Soyster, P. D. (2019). Supervisory experiences of trainees with disabilities: The good, the bad, and the realistic. Training and Education in Professional Psychology, 13(3), 194-199. doi 10.1037/tep0000240

Taube, D. O., & Olkin, R. (2011). When is differential treatment discriminatory? Legal, ethical, and professional considerations for psychology trainees with disabilities. Rehabilitation Psychology, 56, 329-339. doi: 10.1037/a0025449

 

[erg923]

I did not care for graduate school, but that was on me....especially looking back. I just wanted to do some cool stuff for a living, have kids with my wife and have a decent income to support them. Means to an end, so to speak.

I was unsure of where I wanted to go/do...and then (later), very sure I had no desire for high-level academics/soft money. After a while, I wondered how "solid" our data was that we were writing papers on...much less how applicable/relevant it was in the long-game. It never got any more evil than that though. I was never "mistreated" based on my grad student status.

When working inpatient, I had some "events" (fights, restraints, inappropriate sexual stuff) that occurred but figure that's what SMI patients often do in the inpatient setting and moved on. Can't fight city hall...

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Awesome! I was going to PM you for some citations. Thx.

 

[bcliff]

FWIW: I've found graduate school to be generally (85%) great and intermittently (15%) terrible -- I mean this genuinely and not as a some kind of weird humblebrag, but I'm pretty confident that the modal graduate student would not have made it past some of the unique hurdles that I've had to overcome. Almost all of my adverse experiences can be reduced to the power imbalance between student and professor.

I'm hesitant to say much more than that because sharing some of my specific experiences could make me more identifiable than I'd be comfortable with on this forum.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

Legit 4 of the best years of my life. Made some of the best friends I have, figured out what I'm kind of good at (took some time), and got to travel to different spots for internship and fellowship because of it. (however, I tend to be a rose colored glasses type guy, so...)

 

[Sanman]

FWIW: I've found graduate school to be generally (85%) great and intermittently (15%) terrible -- I mean this genuinely and not as a some kind of weird humblebrag, but I'm pretty confident that the modal graduate student would not have made it past some of the unique hurdles that I've had to overcome. Almost all of my adverse experiences can be reduced to the power imbalance between student and professor.

I'm hesitant to say much more than that because sharing some of my specific experiences could make me more identifiable than I'd be comfortable with on this forum.

Similar experience for me. Grad school was decent outside of the limited social scene in my grad school area. My internship was a mess due to a couple of poor supervisors. At the end of the day, I simply enjoy learning and work more than school. This is largely due to school feeling more risky due to the power imbalance (a poor subjective review can decimate your future career). If I am fired from a job, I can just get another one.