the anal anesthesiologist

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GasDaddy

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Why are some anesthesiologists so anal? I can't help but ask sometimes, "Where is the evidence for what you are doing?" I guess what I'm really asking is if being a good anesthesiologist is synonymous with being anal retentive? I'm sure I'm gonna stir the pot with this one.... Let's hear it.
 
Why are some anesthesiologists so anal? I can't help but ask sometimes, "Where is the evidence for what you are doing?" I guess what I'm really asking is if being a good anesthesiologist is synonymous with being anal retentive? I'm sure I'm gonna stir the pot with this one.... Let's hear it.

Some people can't see the forrest, only trees. And they seem to disproportionately become academic anesthesiologists.

In defense, however, being systematic and constantly double/ tripple checking seems to do one well in anesthesiology. Its easy for a lot to go wrong quickly with minor lack of attention.

As for evidence, dont get me started. Theres no evidence for a pulse ox or a fetal heart monitor. Expecting a randomized clinical trial (which is rarely inclusive of the patient you are actually treating) to take place of good judgement and sound reasoning is for the medicine docs.
 
Why are some anesthesiologists so anal? I can't help but ask sometimes, "Where is the evidence for what you are doing?" I guess what I'm really asking is if being a good anesthesiologist is synonymous with being anal retentive? I'm sure I'm gonna stir the pot with this one.... Let's hear it.[/QUOTE

OK, gonna stir the pot even further: this post does not pertain to cardiac anesthesiologists. Must only pertain to peds anesthesiologits :laugh::laugh:
 
Why are some anesthesiologists so anal? I can't help but ask sometimes, "Where is the evidence for what you are doing?" I guess what I'm really asking is if being a good anesthesiologist is synonymous with being anal retentive? I'm sure I'm gonna stir the pot with this one.... Let's hear it.

Well, for starters I think there's a difference between being anal and practicing/perpetuating dogma. The question you posed above sounds like you're thinking about more of the latter. Do you have specific examples of what you're talking about?

I think a little anal retentiveness/borderline OCD traits probably aren't a bad thing in such a detail-oriented specialty where overlooking small things could cost lives.

On the other hand, I've noticed that I can't stand it when the NIBP cuff cycles out of sync with the 5-minute boxes on the anesthesia record and will compulsively adjust the timing of the cuff so it finishes right before a mark is due...now that's anal.
 
Hmm.... I don't know.... a lot of the GREAT anesthesiologists I know are real chill and laid back. The only ones I met that weren't were from NY, or they didn't know what the hell they were doing.

One can appear laid back externally and still be anal about thinking things through...generally makes for a good anaesthetist. After all, much of the job is thinking about what could go wrong and preventing it or having a plan to manage it smoothly if it does happen.

The best test is to see someone in a crisis and then see how cool they are. I hope one day I will be able to be the cool head in a crisis that some of my bosses are.
 
Totally agree Licoricestick.... all the great anesthesiologists I worked with are super calm and laid back, but as soon as something bad or out of normal occurs they are on top of it in a second. I'm just saying that most attendings I work with aren't anal dickheads. Precise, sure... calm and collective, even more so... but to say they are anal retentive is kind of an overstatement. BTW, I know what it is like to do anesthesiology... after all I am doing it in a year ;P
 
Well, for starters I think there's a difference between being anal and practicing/perpetuating dogma. The question you posed above sounds like you're thinking about more of the latter. Do you have specific examples of what you're talking about?
....
Yeah I'm not quite sure what he was pertaining to either. I hear anal retentive, and I think people who freak out and turn into *******s if they don't have things their way.
 
On the other hand, I've noticed that I can't stand it when the NIBP cuff cycles out of sync with the 5-minute boxes on the anesthesia record and will compulsively adjust the timing of the cuff so it finishes right before a mark is due...now that's anal.

wow...just....wow

I can't say I haven't thought that before, but my compulsiveness is generally balanced by my desire to minimize silly distractions in my mind. I'd go crazy if I succumbed to every OCD thought.

I guess we each have our tendencies. I have a habit of wiping down the monitor screen with EtOH each morning- can't stand the film left from the disinfectant wipe.
 
Yeah I'm not quite sure what he was pertaining to either. I hear anal retentive, and I think people who freak out and turn into *******s if they don't have things their way.

So, I'm just a student (or a stud, depending on the local nomenclature), but the seven asterisks plus the "s" makes for a very provocative extra fifty points, at least. Pray, do tell the vowels or consonants in your descriptor!

This thread dovetails so perfectly with the most recently available episode of "It's always sunny in philadelphia" on Hulu.

In all seriousness though, the old "garbage in, garbage out" adage is apropos everywhere in medicine. I respect those people who have a differential not only for the data but for the possible causes of spurious numbers. I have seen people get excited about all kinds of numbers without examining their provenance, whether it is a jenky A-line, a poorly floated Swan, an illegitimate CVP or a units-free bladder pressure. The most recent worst offender I am thinking about is bladder pressures in the ICU when the attending (not an anesthesiologist!) is too impatient to differentiate between cm of H2O and mm of Hg. Thankfully, the patient did not get cut, but the table was set. Thank goodness for a conscientious surg consult service.

As far as I have been able to observe, the "anal anesthesiologist" can be excused when he/she is able to make good decisions quickly because possible sources of erroneous information were eliminated by meticulous set-up. Any additional pain I suffer from supervisors' critique I chalk up to my own ignorance of the importance of the incremental aspects of practice.
 
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So, I'm just a student (or a stud, depending on the local nomenclature), but the seven asterisks plus the "s" makes for a very provocative extra fifty points, at least. Pray, do tell the vowels or consonants in your descriptor!

This thread dovetails so perfectly with the most recently available episode of "It's always sunny in philadelphia" on Hulu.

In all seriousness though, the old "garbage in, garbage out" adage is apropos everywhere in medicine. I respect those people who have a differential not only for the data but for the possible causes of spurious numbers. I have seen people get excited about all kinds of numbers without examining their provenance, whether it is a jenky A-line, a poorly floated Swan, an illegitimate CVP or a units-free bladder pressure. The most recent worst offender I am thinking about is bladder pressures in the ICU when the attending (not an anesthesiologist!) is too impatient to differentiate between cm of H2O and mm of Hg. Thankfully, the patient did not get cut, but the table was set. Thank goodness for a conscientious surg consult service.

As far as I have been able to observe, the "anal anesthesiologist" can be excused when he/she is able to make good decisions quickly because possible sources of erroneous information were eliminated by meticulous set-up. Any additional pain I suffer from supervisors' critique I chalk up to my own ignorance of the importance of the incremental aspects of practice.







wow u used alot of big words.....u must be a med student. Anyway it will serve u well to ditch alot of this when u are working w the common man in a few months/years. My .02
 
wow u used alot of big words.....u must be a med student. Anyway it will serve u well to ditch alot of this when u are working w the common man in a few months/years. My .02

:laugh:

Seriously man. Seriously....
 
Severe and terminal personality disorders are not limited to the field of anesthesia. Have you done your surgery rotation yet? This douche breed of anesthesiologist will be a huge pain in your ass during residency. There is nothing you can do to change them. I would recommend keeping your distance from these individuals as much as possible. I have yet to encounter one in private practice, but I was told by a surgeon at my facility that she can no longer schedule cases at a certain hospital in town due to the inefficiencies resulting from the anal nature of one douche anesthesiologist.😱.

Why are some anesthesiologists so anal? I can't help but ask sometimes, "Where is the evidence for what you are doing?" I guess what I'm really asking is if being a good anesthesiologist is synonymous with being anal retentive? I'm sure I'm gonna stir the pot with this one.... Let's hear it.
 
So, I'm just a student (or a stud, depending on the local nomenclature), but the seven asterisks plus the "s" makes for a very provocative extra fifty points, at least. Pray, do tell the vowels or consonants in your descriptor!

This thread dovetails so perfectly with the most recently available episode of "It's always sunny in philadelphia" on Hulu.

In all seriousness though, the old "garbage in, garbage out" adage is apropos everywhere in medicine. I respect those people who have a differential not only for the data but for the possible causes of spurious numbers. I have seen people get excited about all kinds of numbers without examining their provenance, whether it is a jenky A-line, a poorly floated Swan, an illegitimate CVP or a units-free bladder pressure. The most recent worst offender I am thinking about is bladder pressures in the ICU when the attending (not an anesthesiologist!) is too impatient to differentiate between cm of H2O and mm of Hg. Thankfully, the patient did not get cut, but the table was set. Thank goodness for a conscientious surg consult service.

As far as I have been able to observe, the "anal anesthesiologist" can be excused when he/she is able to make good decisions quickly because possible sources of erroneous information were eliminated by meticulous set-up. Any additional pain I suffer from supervisors' critique I chalk up to my own ignorance of the importance of the incremental aspects of practice.

arsholes 7 letters with an s.
 
when i saw the title i thought of more OCD personality then anal as in arsholes. something in the lines of Gimlet, everything has to be just right. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, I personally act that way a lot of times as well. people just get into a rhythm and like to do things their way, another one i noticed was putting a piece of tape at the bottom of the drop controller of the iv to prevent it from sliding down, instead of just clipping it to the tubing because of possible kinking. other OCD stuff I've seen is how you tape the ET tube and how you clamp the drape over the IV poles. seems that students never do those things correctly and the attending has to always fix it especially clamping the drape to the iv pole. while residents don't really give a crap as long as it's secure.

So I think some degree of OCD or anal retentiveness is good, like labeling your drugs the same way or keeping emergency meds in the same location/order all the time so that you can reach for it almost without looking. that's just my two cents on this whole thing.
 
My favorite attendings to work with are the "old timers" who don't have a care in the world (probably for other reasons!). But I feel like they tend to truly appreciate that there are certain things to worry about and certain things that just aren't worth worrying about.

Whether or not to tape an LMA or something like that? Honestly, who cares and just use your judgement.

Managing a pt with an anterior mediastinal mass and providing the safest anesthetic... that's something that you should sweat bullets about, talk to other anesthesiologists about and figure out a strong game plan. Worth freaking out about.

It's a waste of brain power to obsess over stupid things for the sake of obsessing. Where is the evidence? How does it improve patient outcomes? Some of these attendings are ridiculous man.
 
Translation please. WTF is this dude saying?
I don't think he even knows. (I am sorry, ChubbyHubby, I didn't try to insult you. It is probably a reflection of my inability to understand your writing, due mainly to my mental laziness.)
 
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Going back to our issue, what are we talking about here? What are we calling "anal retentive" or "obsessive-compulsive"?

Fixing the ET tube so that it won't kink or dislodge is anal retentive?

Taping the IV so that it won't kink is anal retentive?

Putting an extra extension on the IV so that when you turn the table away from you, you don't have to crawl under the drapes every time you need to inject medication is anal retentive?

Wanting to start all your lines before the prepping and draping is anal retentive? If it is a difficult line before the draping, it will be even more difficult afterward.

Not wanting the nurse to start the IV in the same spot where you are going to start an arterial line is anal retentive?

Not wanting the IV started in the antecubital vein when your patient is going to be positioned prone with the arms bent at the elbow is anal retentive?

Those who have had to take over cases where the first anesthesiologist was not careful enough to have everything in good shape and in an orderly fashion, know where I am coming from: you cannot find the injection ports, every line gets kinked, the ET tube gets kinked, the BP cuff doesn't work properly, there are no blood drawing sites, the Foley catheter and tubing are positioned in such a way that in order to monitor urine output you need to go under the instrument table and push away two surgeons and a scrub tech and get through blood and secretions dripping on your face, etc. Trying to avoid all of that is called anal retentive?

Then you try to write on the anesthesia record and there is not a single clean surface to work on, because they used the table-top of the anesthesia machine to start their lines and everything is splattered with blood, they threw their dirty laryngoscopes on it and everything is full of secretions, etc. Trying to avoid all that is called anal retentive? Of course, I understand that, in emergencies, some of that is unavoidable, but not in every case, when it is done just in order to please a surgeon who wants to save a few seconds only to be able to brag about it.

And what about the people who start CVP lines without transducing the pressures before introducing the dilator? The big slash in the carotid is not worth the extra minute or two? Wanting to avoid it is called anal retentive? Of course, it only happens once in a great while, and most people get offended if you suggest that it would be better to transduce the pressure; it is as if you insulted their intelligence. The proverbial "I know where I am; with the ultrasound I don't need that," which ends up in a neck exploration and a thoracotomy to repair the damage, after many units of blood and plasma.

You can argue that a few seconds here and a few seconds there, over the course of a year add up to many hours. Would you rather have one of those horrendous complications?

Would you be comfortable having surgery if you knew that your anesthesiologist will not pay attention to those details?
 
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Why are some anesthesiologists so anal? I can't help but ask sometimes, "Where is the evidence for what you are doing?" I guess what I'm really asking is if being a good anesthesiologist is synonymous with being anal retentive? I'm sure I'm gonna stir the pot with this one.... Let's hear it.

Maybe I'm just slow but even after 21 replies, I don't understand what GasDaddy is trying to ask.

GasDaddy, if you are asking why do anesthesiologists like to perform procedures in different ways, well most of the time it is just a matter of personal style. There doesn't have to be evidence for everything. Heck there are many studies that can't be done because the IRB would never approve them, or you would need too many patients to detect a difference. It is in those gray areas that personal preferences come into play. Just learn from others and eventually you will develop your own style. If you work with enough attendings you will know how they want things done, and it won't even be an issue. Questioning is OK, but don't make a big deal of it.

Like others (Sergio99 being the latest) have said, a little bit of OCD/anal retentiveness is important in a detail oriented field like anesthesiology. It allows for early detection/prevention of problems.

What I will agree was frustrating was when I was a resident and would start a case with one attending, but have another attending finish the case and berate you for not having done things the second attendings way from the beginning. This was just nitpicking on extremely minor stuff. Fortunately these situations were rare because most attendings were relatively laid back.
 
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