The carib schools are toast!

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
That is exactly the point.

Some posters would like to pretend an AMG will be preferred under any circumstance. That may be more of a reflection of the poster's lack of confidence, but it is certainly not supported by fact.

stellar IMGs can and do shine, but at the rate around 1 out of 100. don't believe me? read SGU matchlist.

but I agree it's all about a person's inner ability though. It's about you, statistics doesn't matter.

Members don't see this ad.
 
This is exactly the problem. There are not too many "stellar" IMGs because "stellar" students do not have to go to the caribbean for med school. You may get someone that because specific circumstances was not able to 'shine" during undergrad but those are really exceptions. To even consider them to support your argument is silly.

Magnificently circular logic that is stereotypically and deliciously biased.

A perfect example of how a lack of knowledge leads to reactionary thinking.
 
So IMGs are not stellar unless they match into uber-competitive specialties?

SGU's list looks like most US school's lists (with the majority into FM/Im and a scant few into unbercompetitive specialties).

How are you making your conclusions?



stellar IMGs can and do shine, but at the rate around 1 out of 100. don't believe me? read SGU matchlist.

but I agree it's all about a person's inner ability though. It's about you, statistics doesn't matter.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
My .02 healthcare professionals will always be needed, we have an aging population (and a retiring one) thus, worst come to worst there will be a higher needs for geriatric care and psych and neuro...LOL...Yes, there is a growing number of places available in DO schools, it will be balanced out by retirements (even though some will retire later because of the recent financial crisis)....in my opinion keep studying and focus on good board scores and stop the paranoia and the feelings of despair! :p
 
My .02 healthcare professionals will always be needed, we have an aging population (and a retiring one) thus, worst come to worst there will be a higher needs for geriatric care and psych and neuro...LOL...Yes, there is a growing number of places available in DO schools, it will be balanced out by retirements (even though some will retire later because of the recent financial crisis)....in my opinion keep studying and focus on good board scores and stop the paranoia and the feelings of despair! :p

It doesn't matter how many people retire if there are no new residency spots.

Think about things before posting. :sleep:
 
It doesn't matter how many people retire if there are no new residency spots.

Think about things before posting. :sleep:

Maybe I am dreamign but I do think they will increase residency spots as well....you don`t think so....well I don`t think anybody believed that GM will become govt. property for a while either :p... I'm immune now to your sharp tongue, I am certain things will work out for those that are serious and work hard.
 
Maybe I am dreamign but I do think they will increase residency spots as well....you don`t think so....well I don`t think anybody believed that GM will become govt. property for a while either :p... I'm immune now to your sharp tongue, I am certain things will work out for those that are serious and work hard.

I remember several people who started medical school with your type of overly optimistic attitude and they eventually failed out. I am not saying that you will not succeed, but realism is important in life and sometimes infinite optimism borders on being delusional.

Things do not always work out for those who work hard. Life is not fair and bad things happen to good people. Those are realities. You must accept that part of life.
 
Increasing residency spots means a lot of money. There will be SOME increase but not commensurate to the level of increase in AMG's (MD/DO's). If the projection is true, by 2016 (when 2012 freshmen graduates), ALL the USIMG and FMG's in the world will be fighting for 500-1000 spots. That's very tough considering that they are having a hard time getting in with 6000 extra spots. I'm an FMG but you can bet that it will be politically convenient to put the AMG's ahead of everybody else.
 
I remember several people who started medical school with your type of overly optimistic attitude and they eventually failed out. I am not saying that you will not succeed, but realism is important in life and sometimes infinite optimism borders on being delusional.

Things do not always work out for those who work hard. Life is not fair and bad things happen to good people. Those are realities. You must accept that part of life.

just curious, you seem to be critizing everyone who make a comment at all, even if those are meant to support you. you seem to be easily agitated.

also, SGU matchlist is pretty difference from a US schools list.
 
just curious, you seem to be critizing everyone who make a comment at all, even if those are meant to support you. you seem to be easily agitated.

also, SGU matchlist is pretty difference from a US schools list.

If you weren't a premed, you would know what a real matchlist looks like.

Come back with some facts, not another opinion that has no basis.

Please prove why the SGU matchlist is "pretty difference" from US schools, darlin'.
 
I remember several people who started medical school with your type of overly optimistic attitude and they eventually failed out. I am not saying that you will not succeed, but realism is important in life and sometimes infinite optimism borders on being delusional.

Things do not always work out for those who work hard. Life is not fair and bad things happen to good people. Those are realities. You must accept that part of life.

Again, sensing some toxicity here.
 
If you weren't a premed, you would know what a real matchlist looks like.

Come back with some facts, not another opinion that has no basis.

Please prove why the SGU matchlist is "pretty difference" from US schools, darlin'.

. . . and now downright nasty.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I think McGill has moved on to the "angry" stage

cm_model_01_L.gif
 
SGU's list looks like most US school's lists (with the majority into FM/Im and a scant few into unbercompetitive specialties).

How are you making your conclusions?

Looking at my school's (mid-tier US Allo) match list this year, I would say you are wrong. SGU's match list does not look like most US school's lists. It looks like some/few school's match lists. And when I mean some/few, these are less regarded medical schools.
 
Looking at my school's (mid-tier US Allo) match list this year, I would say you are wrong. SGU's match list does not look like most US school's lists. It looks like some/few school's match lists. And when I mean some/few, these are less regarded medical schools.

Yeah, "most" was a reach. How about the average non-top tier school. That would cover most mid-level state schools.
 
The irony here is palpable, considering that your whole signature is dedicated to destruction of DNPs....lol

Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle.



I think McGill has moved on to the "angry" stage

cm_model_01_L.gif
 
If you weren't a premed, you would know what a real matchlist looks like.

Come back with some facts, not another opinion that has no basis.

Please prove why the SGU matchlist is "pretty difference" from US schools, darlin'.

Didn't you matching this year?
 
Didn't you matching this year?

Not quite sure if you are purposely using improper grammar to make a joke or if you inadvertently made a typo.

Either way, I am still not finished with all of my rotations.
 
Not quite sure if you are purposely using improper grammar to make a joke or if you inadvertently made a typo.

Either way, I am still not finished with all of my rotations.

I switched "aren't" with "didn't" and forgot to correct for grammar.
 
so, SGU got 2 grads into ortho out of more than 400 PGY1 matches, and 7 grads into radiology out of more than 450 PGY2 matches, right.

Albany medical college got around 7-8 people into rad out of a class of around 140, Rosalind franklin had 19 radiology matches this year (quoting number roughly).

both LCME school above aren't exactly top tier.

With that being said, I think SGU and the big 4 fills the void for primary care (as evidented by the huge amount of primary care specialty it puts out), and I appreciate the effort of those schools to address the shortage of primary care physicians.

My own family doc is a SGU grad.
 
Yeah, what the Hell do I know anyway.

The average stats at SGU are 3.4 and a 26. What do you expect from those people besides mostly primary med. And SGU has the best stats in the Carib...lol

Congrats at MS, btw. The average stats are 3.6 and 34. That's pretty impressive for the average of the class.

In any case, what will be will be and I can only speak for myself. I have no worries about matching so I'll leave it at that.

The point of the match is the match the best candidate to train the best doctors. Hopefully it will do that for the sake of our healthcare system.

Didn't mean to be a dick before but I get carried away with fooling around on the boards and forget that some people take these boards seriously.



so, SGU got 2 grads into ortho out of more than 400 PGY1 matches, and 7 grads into radiology out of more than 450 PGY2 matches, right.

Albany medical college got around 7-8 people into rad out of a class of around 140, Rosalind franklin had 19 radiology matches this year (quoting number roughly).

both LCME school above aren't exactly top tier.

With that being said, I think SGU and the big 4 fills the void for primary care (as evidented by the huge amount of primary care specialty it puts out), and I appreciate the effort of those schools to address the shortage of primary care physicians.

My own family doc is a SGU grad.
 
I can't believe we are having this discussion again. It always starts with exPCM and the "Table of IMG doom". Then McGillGrad gets all upset. Then the screaming starts. Deja vu.

Regardless:

1. All of this is based upon this presumed "physician shortage", which is really interesting if you think about it. First of all, it's hard to predict exactly how many physicians we need. Second, if we generate enough physicians to manage the fattest part of the baby boomer bubble, we will have too many physicians when they die off. All previous predictions of physician shortages or oversupply have been crap. I expect this one is too.

2. Allo med schools have increased class size, and a few new ones have opened. Although they explain their increases on the AAMC call for more doctors, it's probably all about more tuition. The overall increase in allo spots is small, but real.

3. The DO explosion is new, and adds a new variable to the match.

4. The question of whether AMG's are "better" than US IMG's is pretty silly. The major carb schools produce quality docs. Some of them score well on the boards -- I think it's an overstatement to suggest that "most" do. Med school application processes are not perfect -- some students accepted into US allo programs do poorly. Whether programs are going to prefer AMG's depends upon the program. I agree that many programs favor AMG's -- some take them almost uniformly. Some programs take IMG's uniformly, although as suggested this may be because they would want AMG's but can't get them. So, I think it's fair to say that all other things being equal, an AMG will have a sigificant advantage over a US IMG. As the US IMG becomes "better" than the AMG, it's impossible to know when the scales equal out -- and will depend on the field and the program.

5. Whether DO > US IMG or US IMG > DO is also very field and program dependent.

6. I do not see the number of residency slots increasing any time soon. I could be wrong. I have no idea if the DO world will try to increase slots.

7. As DO and Allo programs increase their class sizes, students who would have gone to the carib but now get into a US school will not. Hence, the number of carib students may decrease, or the quality of carib students will decrease, or the number of carib schools will decrease, or some combination.

8. More applicants + equal slots = more competitive match for everyone. I expect that DO's and IMG's will feel more pressure in the match, due to increased competition, but so will allo MD's (but perhaps to a lesser extent).

9. Assuming this all comes to pass, one of two things will happen: IMG's/DO's will get squeezed out of the match OR lower performing US allo's will get squeezed out of the match (or both).

10. If lower performing US allo's get squeezed out of the match, there will be immense pressure put on the health care system to fix the problem. The AAMC will certainly "deal" with the issue. How they would do so is anyone's guess. They could force a two stage match -- first stage US allo grads, then everyone else. Or it could be US citizens first, then everyone else. Or they could adjust visa laws to prevent foreign grads from getting any spots until all US grads have spots (This is my personal favorite, since Congress controls visa laws where they would have to sue the NRMP to change the match). Who knows? But if Congressperson X's son doesn;t get a residency in anything after successfully graduating from medical school and passing the USMLE's, and foreign grads do, heads are going to roll.
 
I think what is being stated here is that as the number of AMG's grow, the more IMG's will be left out of the match. Given an AMG and IMG with similar stats, the AMG will be picked. So with this huge influx of AMG's in the next decade, IMG's will be left out more and more. Obviously, if you are a steller IMG you will still match. But for the average IMG it will be hard to compete with the huge amount of average AMG's.

This is true. But another important point that's being completely overlooked here is where these new additional AMG's will come from to fill all the new spots in US schools. The fact is that all of these new spots will be filled up with what would have been the upper portion of the IMG pool, who more or less just miss out on matriculating into a US school in todays environment. It will still be the same people matching into the same residency spots, only as AMG instead of IMG. This is actually a good thing for (almost) everyone.
 
6. I do not see the number of residency slots increasing any time soon. I could be wrong. I have no idea if the DO world will try to increase slots.

I just read somewhere that Touro-Nevada along with Valley Hospital opened up about 80 or so DO residency spots. Several specialties including neurology. And that they are actively working with other local hospitals to open more. All osteopathic mind you, but certainly a venting of sorts considering the rapid DO expansion.
 
Last edited:
As an IMG from a med school on the Indian subcontinent who is applying for the match this year, this thread makes me crap in my pants.
 
As an IMG from a med school on the Indian subcontinent who is applying for the match this year, this thread makes me crap in my pants.
You can still get in somewhere (probably FM in undesirable progs). However, those just starting med school few years from now are screwed.
 
...and the Mayan calendar ends in December 2012 too!
 
McGill, you are looking at the wrong data. Whether or not you are interpreting it correctly, which you are not, does not even matter. Look at the 2009 match data:

% of applicants successfully matching:

US Allopathic Seniors: 93.1% match successfully
US Osteopathic Seniors: 69.9%
US Citizen IMGs: 47.8%
Non-US Citizen IMGs: 41.6%

As you can see, a much lower percentage of students from non-US medical schools match. Keep in mind, this is after a huge chunk of them self-select out due to low scores. Only the students who actually applied count. Whether that is due to bad reputation, low scores, bad recommendations, bias, it really doesn't matter. You will have a harder time matching from a Caribbean school. Period. Of course there are superstars who nail the boards and match well. However, even those students would have had an easier time matching if they had applied with the same stats from a US School.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/advancedatatables2009.pdf
 
McGill, you are looking at the wrong data. Whether or not you are interpreting it correctly, which you are not, does not even matter. Look at the 2009 match data:

% of applicants successfully matching:

US Allopathic Seniors: 93.1% match successfully
US Osteopathic Seniors: 69.9%
US Citizen IMGs: 47.8%
Non-US Citizen IMGs: 41.6%

As you can see, a much lower percentage of students from non-US medical schools match. Keep in mind, this is after a huge chunk of them self-select out due to low scores. Only the students who actually applied count. Whether that is due to bad reputation, low scores, bad recommendations, bias, it really doesn't matter. You will have a harder time matching from a Caribbean school. Period. Of course there are superstars who nail the boards and match well. However, even those students would have had an easier time matching if they had applied with the same stats from a US School.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/advancedatatables2009.pdf

Very concisely put! Can we be more specific, when we say US-citizen IMGs?

Forget the dozens of carib schools that produce sub par grads for a moment and concentrate on the "Big 4" schools.

What would you say is the percentage of those US citizen IMGs matching???

I ask this because I BELIEVE the excellent schools, with above avg match results, will certainly survive this era of increasing US med school grads. IMO this era of competition is a good thing for both avg US med schools and good/great caribbean schools.

rlxdmd
 
Very concisely put! Can we be more specific, when we say US-citizen IMGs?

Forget the dozens of carib schools that produce sub par grads for a moment and concentrate on the "Big 4" schools.

What would you say is the percentage of those US citizen IMGs matching???

I ask this because I BELIEVE the excellent schools, with above avg match results, will certainly survive this era of increasing US med school grads. IMO this era of competition is a good thing for both avg US med schools and good/great caribbean schools.

rlxdmd

There are two major groups of US-citizen IMGs.

1. Those that go to a foreign medical school that is a product of the education system of that country. Often, its the country where their family emigrated from. Common ones are India, Poland, Philipines, Australia, UK...

2. Those that go to the Caribbean for med school.

So, Oxford and Cambridge vs. Ross and SGU. Who do you think does better?

I think that the actual statistic for US-IMGs graduating from the Caribbean is less than 47.8%, and that US-IMGs graduating from any other region is more. It just averages out to 47.8%
 
I don't make the rules. I'm just telling you how the PD's and selection committees think, based on other people's comments, talking to many PD's myself, and my own personal experience with going through the match. Go ahead and stay in denial.

head_in_sand.jpg
I like the picture. Having said that, not all FMG's are equal (though a lot of the Carib students would scream out otherwise). On the one hand you got the Caribbean schools with their 800 people per class enrollments, on the other hand you also got small and competitive British, Australian and Israeli schools/programs, you know, programs from real first-world countries and medical centers.

The low match rates of FMG's in general is due to the fact that a huge portion of those applicants FAILED the Steps multiple times, or barely passed. Not necessarily because they are FMG. They are simply really bad applicants.

But there's just no way in hell that a US Citizen FMG with a 250 Step 1 will be worse off than a US Senior with a 220 from a state school. I for one wouldn't want to associate with a program that would discriminate to this extent, because as an individual I believe in merit and redemption. Our medical school admissions process is in no way perfect (hah!); to me it takes a lot of balls and determination for someone to leave the country, do well and come back with higher than average board scores. It's a middle finger to the adcoms that rejected the person, and it's part of the American spirit.

People who are joyful about the possibility that an US Citizen FMG with 250 Step 1 ought to be placed behind a US Senior with a 220 are in my opinion pretty conceited, and I dare say, cowardly.
 
But there's just no way in hell that a US Citizen FMG with a 250 Step 1 will be worse off than a US Senior with a 220 from a state school.

Yes, it's a shame when that happens, but remember that there programs that will never consider an IMG no matter what your accomplishments are. So you can have 270, 10 pubs, great LOR's and still not be considered for interviews. I think that you see such programs more commonly in those specialties that don't lack for applicants such as derm, ophtho, rads. For example, the stats of FMG's I heard who matched rads are amazing (250+/250+, 5 pubs, etc), but they got only like 7 interviews at not so great places after applying to 100 programs. If they were from US MD schools, they would have matched at Harvard, Yale, etc. What we are saying is if you're FMG don't underestimate the level of difficulty ahead for you. Some people are misperceiving these observations as attacks on FMG's but they're not. We're stating what we saw for ourselves on the interview trail.
 
I agree that for competitive residencies it is more difficult to feel equal with US grads, despite high board scores and strong supporting documents and pubs. We will not be equal, ever, I think. If you want those specialties, my advice is stay in the US system and keep trying to get admitted.

But that is ONLY a small percentage of the US IMGs that match. Lets instead focus on the primary care fields, IM, peds, FM, etc.

How difficult is it to Match into those as a US IMG?

IMO the majority of the US IMGs are taking the less desirable positions in rural and inner city America.

If the US IMGs went away, would the DOs and or US grads be willing to work at those same posts?

rlxdmd
 
Yes, it's a shame when that happens, but remember that there programs that will never consider an IMG no matter what your accomplishments are. So you can have 270, 10 pubs, great LOR's and still not be considered for interviews. I think that you see such programs more commonly in those specialties that don't lack for applicants such as derm, ophtho, rads. For example, the stats of FMG's I heard who matched rads are amazing (250+/250+, 5 pubs, etc), but they got only like 7 interviews at not so great places after applying to 100 programs. If they were from US MD schools, they would have matched at Harvard, Yale, etc. What we are saying is if you're FMG don't underestimate the level of difficulty ahead for you. Some people are misperceiving these observations as attacks on FMG's but they're not. We're stating what we saw for ourselves on the interview trail.
I'm not an FMG, but if I someday become a PD, I would take the 250+/250+, 5 pubs FMG in a heartbeat over a 220 no pub, so long as he comes off as a normal English-speaking person and doesn't have visa issues.

All I'm saying is that it's easy for people to come to extreme conclusions by generalizing FMG's all together as the 48% match group. But it's clearly not the case. The primary reason why the majority of FMG applicants do not match is because they are poor applicants. These same applicants would unlikely match if they were US Seniors too (my college bud who went to a SUNY med school failed his Step 1, barely passed Step 2 CK, and he didn't match this year either).

And 250 Step 1 doesn't at all guarantee you a rads spot at Harvard and Yale if you are a US Senior. You would have a shot, but so did the FMG.
 
I don't think anyone is saying that you will have a problem matching (except to plastics, derm, etc.) as a Caribbean grad with a 250 Step 1 and a great academic record. It is unlikely that you will find yourself in that situation, as few people (<1%) perform that well on the USMLE even from US schools. It is far more likely that you will find yourself in the majority of people who fall in the just passing to average range that will truly struggle in the match. The fact remains, Carib schools are a much more difficult road, and the most selective specialities are largely an impossibility. You won't be losing the spot to an AMG with low stats, you will be losing it to an AMG with equal or better stats. You may think that it is unfair that AMG's get any preference at all, and you're right. The world isn't fair, and as a country we take care of our own first...our own schools and our own people. Don't forget that you too will be shown this preference when you are compared to foreign national IMG's.
 
Last edited:
I don't think anyone is saying that you will have a problem matching (except to plastics, derm, etc.) as a Caribbean grad with a 250 Step 1 and a great academic record. It is unlikely that you will find yourself in that situation, as few people (<1%) perform that well on the USMLE even from US schools. It is far more likely that you will find yourself in the majority of people who fall in the just passing to average range that will truly struggle in the match. The fact remains, Carib schools are a much more difficult road, and the most selective specialities are largely an impossibility. You won't be losing the spot to an AMG with low stats, you will be losing it to an AMG with equal or better stats. You may think that it is unfair that AMG's get any preference at all, and you're right. The world isn't fair, and as a country we take care of our own first...our own schools and our own people. Don't forget that you too will be shown this preference when you are compared to foreign national IMG's.
All I'm saying is that the decision to go FMG is an individual one. There are quite a few people with MCATs higher than 33 and craptastic undergrad GPA because they did crazy hard engineering majors at Caltech that would make many US medical school classes look like LD classes, and didn't consider medicine until later. These people would have a hard time getting into a US medical school (especially in certain states), because the US admissions process for various reasons favors GPA (and pays lip service to difficulty of school and major). Reminding these people of the overall 48% match rate of FMGs is a waste of time, because they will be far more likely to succeed in and after medical school than the majority of Caribbean medical students who have MCATs lower than a 26 (if at all) and couldn't figure out an amino acid titration curve if their life depended on it.

And to argue that someone with an MCAT greater than 33 has less than 1% chance of getting a 250 on the Step 1 just because they went the FMG route is ludicrous. Your odds of matching doesn't suddenly decline to 48% just because other FMGs, a group with VASTLY different qualifications and circumstances, have that rate.

Obviously, if you are a Caribbean student with an MCAT of 23 and a GPA of under 3.0 at Podunk State University as a biology major, then yes, your odds of matching as an FMG is very likely 48% or lower.

I'm just tired of people prancing around the 48% match statistic as if that is each and every FMG's odds of getting a match. While I understand that many would be wise to heed the warnings, there are also quite a few who would benefit considerably going the FMG route (in time, money and ultimate goal of becoming a doctor).
 
Last edited:
I stopped posting on these threads because these same guys are ignorant of the fact that the match rate does not take prematching into account.

A good percentage of Carib students prematch because it is a guaranteed spot.

But facts seem to be superfluous to emotional arguments.



All I'm saying is that the decision to go FMG is an individual one. There are quite a few people with MCATs higher than 33 and craptastic undergrad GPA because they did crazy hard engineering majors at Caltech that would make many US medical school classes look like LD classes, and didn't consider medicine until later. These people would have a hard time getting into a US medical school (especially in certain states), because the US admissions process for various reasons favors GPA (and pays lip service to difficulty of school and major). Reminding these people of the overall 48% match rate of FMGs is a waste of time, because they will be far more likely to succeed in and after medical school than the majority of Caribbean medical students who have MCATs lower than a 26 (if at all) and couldn't figure out an amino acid titration curve if their life depended on it.

And to argue that someone with an MCAT greater than 33 has less than 1% chance of getting a 250 on the Step 1 just because they went the FMG route is ludicrous. Your odds of matching doesn't suddenly decline to 48% just because other FMGs, a group with VASTLY different qualifications and circumstances, have that rate.

Obviously, if you are a Caribbean student with an MCAT of 23 and a GPA of under 3.0 at Podunk State University as a biology major, then yes, your odds of matching as an FMG is very likely 48% or lower.

I'm just tired of people prancing around the 48% match statistic as if that is each and every FMG's odds of getting a match. While I understand that many would be wise to heed the warnings, there are also quite a few who would benefit considerably going the FMG route (in time, money and ultimate goal of becoming a doctor).
 
I'm just tired of people prancing around the 48% match statistic as if that is each and every FMG's odds of getting a match. While I understand that many would be wise to heed the warnings, there are also quite a few who would benefit considerably going the FMG route (in time, money and ultimate goal of becoming a doctor).

I agree with you. That number does not do justice to the thousands of US IMGs that leave home to pursue their dreams, despite the obstacles of being an outsider.

Also, I would like to see the Big 4 carib schools publish statistics on the number of grads who succeed in the Match, and outside the Match.
I believe it will be higher than 48%.

rlxdmd
 
I'm just tired of people prancing around the 48% match statistic as if that is each and every FMG's odds of getting a match. While I understand that many would be wise to heed the warnings, there are also quite a few who would benefit considerably going the FMG route (in time, money and ultimate goal of becoming a doctor).

Obviously it's not the odds for every FMG, nor is 93% every AMG's odds of getting a match. It doesn't really apply to individuals. The point is that it is much more difficult, in general, for an FMG. This is due to a variety of factors including: possibly a weaker applicant to begin with, bias against FMG's, less connections, less opportunities for AI's, every other disadvantage to Carib schools which have been discussed ad nauseum. Regardless, it IS more difficult to match as an FMG.

You're right that these odds don't apply to every FMG, but they do apply to the population. While there are many grads with exceptional records, who will have no problem matching, there are equally as many with lousy records who have no chance of matching and plenty in the middle who could go either way. Hence, the 48% will hold true, whether you like it or not. While you as an individual may have a great chance of matching, if you take a random sample of 100 FMG's applying to residency, only 48 will match. Do the same with 100 AMG's and 93 will match.
 
Obviously it's not the odds for every FMG, nor is 93% every AMG's odds of getting a match. It doesn't really apply to individuals. The point is that it is much more difficult, in general, for an FMG. This is due to a variety of factors including: possibly a weaker applicant to begin with, bias against FMG's, less connections, less opportunities for AI's, every other disadvantage to Carib schools which have been discussed ad nauseum. Regardless, it IS more difficult to match as an FMG.

You're right that these odds don't apply to every FMG, but they do apply to the population. While there are many grads with exceptional records, who will have no problem matching, there are equally as many with lousy records who have no chance of matching and plenty in the middle who could go either way. Hence, the 48% will hold true, whether you like it or not. While you as an individual may have a great chance of matching, if you take a random sample of 100 FMG's applying to residency, only 48 will match. Do the same with 100 AMG's and 93 will match.

Considering that you apparently cannot read, you will probably not match. If you could read, you would know that the 48% does not include prematches.

I really hope you're not a Ron Paul supporter, because you sound more like a GOP supporter (reading skills and all...:laugh:).
 
I can't believe we are having this discussion again. It always starts with exPCM and the "Table of IMG doom". Then McGillGrad gets all upset. Then the screaming starts. Deja vu.
It is not my table. It is from the AMA news and the data comes from the AAMC and AACOM
Regardless:

1. All of this is based upon this presumed "physician shortage", which is really interesting if you think about it. First of all, it's hard to predict exactly how many physicians we need. Second, if we generate enough physicians to manage the fattest part of the baby boomer bubble, we will have too many physicians when they die off. All previous predictions of physician shortages or oversupply have been crap. I expect this one is too.

2. Allo med schools have increased class size, and a few new ones have opened. Although they explain their increases on the AAMC call for more doctors, it's probably all about more tuition. The overall increase in allo spots is small, but real.

3. The DO explosion is new, and adds a new variable to the match.

4. The question of whether AMG's are "better" than US IMG's is pretty silly. The major carb schools produce quality docs. Some of them score well on the boards -- I think it's an overstatement to suggest that "most" do. Med school application processes are not perfect -- some students accepted into US allo programs do poorly. Whether programs are going to prefer AMG's depends upon the program. I agree that many programs favor AMG's -- some take them almost uniformly. Some programs take IMG's uniformly, although as suggested this may be because they would want AMG's but can't get them. So, I think it's fair to say that all other things being equal, an AMG will have a sigificant advantage over a US IMG. As the US IMG becomes "better" than the AMG, it's impossible to know when the scales equal out -- and will depend on the field and the program.

5. Whether DO > US IMG or US IMG > DO is also very field and program dependent.

6. I do not see the number of residency slots increasing any time soon. I could be wrong. I have no idea if the DO world will try to increase slots.

7. As DO and Allo programs increase their class sizes, students who would have gone to the carib but now get into a US school will not. Hence, the number of carib students may decrease, or the quality of carib students will decrease, or the number of carib schools will decrease, or some combination.

8. More applicants + equal slots = more competitive match for everyone. I expect that DO's and IMG's will feel more pressure in the match, due to increased competition, but so will allo MD's (but perhaps to a lesser extent).

9. Assuming this all comes to pass, one of two things will happen: IMG's/DO's will get squeezed out of the match OR lower performing US allo's will get squeezed out of the match (or both).

10. If lower performing US allo's get squeezed out of the match, there will be immense pressure put on the health care system to fix the problem. The AAMC will certainly "deal" with the issue. How they would do so is anyone's guess. They could force a two stage match -- first stage US allo grads, then everyone else. Or it could be US citizens first, then everyone else. Or they could adjust visa laws to prevent foreign grads from getting any spots until all US grads have spots (This is my personal favorite, since Congress controls visa laws where they would have to sue the NRMP to change the match). Who knows? But if Congressperson X's son doesn;t get a residency in anything after successfully graduating from medical school and passing the USMLE's, and foreign grads do, heads are going to roll.
Agree with 1-10
 
Considering that you apparently cannot read, you will probably not match. If you could read, you would know that the 48% does not include prematches.

I really hope you're not a Ron Paul supporter, because you sound more like a GOP supporter (reading skills and all...:laugh:).

Apparently you can't use your critical thinking skills, since you are intent on disregarding the huge percentage of Caribbean students who don't even make it to graduation day, don't take the board exams, or fail the board exams. If anything, the 48% is an overestimate since it doesn't factor in these failures. At American schools 95%+ make it to graduation day, and THEN around 95% of them match.

Anyway, I am curious. How many IMG's prematch? If it has such a huge impact on success rates, then we should definitely consider it here.
 
48% does not include prematches

As the competition for residency heats up, it naturally follows that the % of prematches will decline. Prematches are offered by programs that historically have trouble filling their positions. If programs have less trouble filling because of the increased number of applicants, then there is less pressure to offer prematches. That's something people need to keep in mind. But knowing McGilly, he'll probably argue against that too. :rolleyes:
 
Over on valuemd, SGU has apparently sent an email to their students addressing this year's match numbers.

http://www.valuemd.com/st-georges-u...email-dean-about-match-rates.html#post1065834

"The NRMP does not publish data on each individual international medical school. However, we did ask them to calculate the SGU match rate for our US citizen 2009 graduates. They responded to us and stated that "74.5% matched to a first year position and your overall match rate is 80.1%." (The "overall" included those that matched to a PGY-2 position, e.g. neurology but not a preliminary PGY-1.)"

The problem with IMG, and *also* DO stats is that neither compile lists of prematches - at least that's what they say. And few schools are willing to share those lists if they indeed exist. So any low match rate can be countered by a response about some nebulous number of prematch positions.

I agree that if competition for spots increase, prematches will begin to disappear, and the true match rate will emerge. Should be interesting. I'd love to see individual schools tout their match numbers like SGU did.
 
Last edited:
Glad to see SGU is taking the lead in this. Publishing their actual data shows confidence in their education programs! They are trying to stand out from the rest of the caribbean crowd. Deep down, I knew they would have to be much higher than the IMG average of 48%.
IMO, SGU simply produces a better medical graduate than the AVERAGE caribbean med school.

According to the SGU website:
First time Step 1 pass rate is about 85%
Match rate for SGU students in this years match is 80%

IF I WAS A PROSPECTIVE STUDENT, and I thought I could love primary care medicine, then SGU is a safe bet to get a good education, spend some time abroad, and be fairly certain you will Match.

rlxdmd
 
Glad to see SGU is taking the lead in this. Publishing their actual data shows confidence in their education programs! They are trying to stand out from the rest of the caribbean crowd. Deep down, I knew they would have to be much higher than the IMG average of 48%.
IMO, SGU simply produces a better medical graduate than the AVERAGE caribbean med school.

According to the SGU website:
First time Step 1 pass rate is about 85%
Match rate for SGU students in this years match is 80%

IF I WAS A PROSPECTIVE STUDENT, and I thought I could love primary care medicine, then SGU is a safe bet to get a good education, spend some time abroad, and be fairly certain you will Match.

rlxdmd

I wouldn't consider the SGU president sending an email stating an 80% match rate purportedly calculated from the NRMP as 'publishing' data.
 
Top